We have previously discusses alarming moves in France to limit or deny speech through blasphemy prosecutions to hate speech to barring “antihistorical” speech. Now, in the wake of the recent killings by a Muslim extremist, the government of President Nicolas Sarkozy is proposing a new law that would jail repeat visitors to extremist web sites. It is a measure that strips away core free speech rights of citizens and gives the government a new ambiguous power to arrest people for the things that they read.
Sarkozy insists that such websites should be treated the same as child pornography and that “anyone who regularly consults Internet sites which promote terror or hatred or violence will be sentenced to prison.” Of course, child pornography contains an objective identifiable component to the child — picture of a minor engaged in sexual conduct. Sarkozy’s Internet law would leave it to the government to determine what sites are espousing “terrorist” viewpoints. Authoritarian governments have long defined critics as criminals and terrorists from China to Iran to North Korea.
Sarkozy expressed impatience with those who raise the niceties of free speech: “Don’t tell me it’s not possible. What is possible for pedophiles should be possible for trainee terrorists and their supporters, too.”
So, Sarkozy will identify those people “in training” to be terrorists.
It is a pattern that is all too familiar to Americans. After an individual or group commits a heinous act of terror, the government immediately uses the attack to limit freedoms of all citizens and to expand its own ill-defined powers. In this case, Sarkozy’s prospects for reelection increased with the massacre and he appears to be riding the backlash following the attacks.
It appears however that the last victim of these attack will be free speech in France.
Source: Yahoo
idealist I did not accuse you of being an an anti-semite. I do not believe that you hate Jews. However, your stance concerning the jews and power, money etc. is an anti-semitic position. There are many who WOULD consider you a bigot and a stereo-typist for saying something like that or perhaps even a full-blown anti-semite. I do believe that your statement is idiotic and non-factual. As I stated before, most jews that I know are in the 99%, and I know many more jews than you do, from all walks of life. You bring America’s support for Israel and AIPAC as proof that jews control the world. AIPAC is largely a response to the remarkably strong Arab Lobby. By your logic, the Arabs may be considered to control the world. After all, they have a powerful lobbying group as well! You bring the white phosphorus incidents as proof that Israel targets civilians. Israel has never targeted civilians. The Human Rights Watch, headed by a jew by the way (you see, even they are controlled by the jews!), is a major critic of Israel and brought up the phosphorus issue. Israel was not firing white phosphorus shells at Palestinian civilians. They were firing phosphorus smoke screens to cover troop movements during the “Gaza War” in 08-09. The US provided these shells for that purpose. They actually worked quite nicely. At no time was it proven that Israel has targeted civilians. The Palestinian Hamas likes to fire rockets from crowded civilian areas even schools as seen in the video below. They hope to provoke a response and create an international incident. Note that Hamas IS targeting civilians. Hamas also likes to fire rockets in the early morning, so they can kill children heading to school. Israel provides services like water and electricity to the people who are chucking bombs at them.
SwM.
Then let me present the following:
I wrote to Commoner this which you question:
“Israel controls America’s economy through our israeli/jewish population. The role of ecnnomic controllers, the one per cent , we discuss often here. Putting a jewish label on them does not make them innocent of selfish deeds, nor does it say they are guilty. It is but a fact, which follows the success of the jewish people in following their tribe’s model. Until the world changes its views on “tribe before nation, (and that includes many peoples) then we wiill always have these problems. Both jewish, muslim and hindus, etc..”
I see how you thought I meant that the top one percent (or xx percent) were jews. I meant that jews are able to influence our economy to the point that our President and our top (R) candidates visit AIPAC declaring their loyalty to Israed WITHOUT RESERVE. They give Israel carte blance, a blank check already signed.
I see no reason for that except it is an expression of political (hardly in numbers, but do correct me) numbers or expression of economic power.
OT, how did a numbskull, smart but numbskull, like Bernanke get to be FED chief?. He said just like George and his predecessor at his office that an unregulated market was best, particularly for CDs.
So it is not anti-semitism when I see and repeat what I see as demonstrable and reasonable fact. It’s not friend or foe. It is facts I’m after.
And any facts you can provide in this sensitive subject are VERY welcome.
As for anti-semitism, where do you jews get off using that. Just realizing that you are not the only semites in the ME. And correctly we can’t call all arabs muslims either. They’re are other religions there within that “racial” designation.
The jews have kept to themselves over the centurieds and well that.
They provide us with a wellspring of talent in the past and today.
Not many match them.
I wish you would go look earlier for this post, read it entirely, and still tell me I intentionally stepped over a line and insulted the jews.
That post breathes tolerance and love of all mankind, and expresses my wish for a chance to approach jews, as it is for other ME origin people.
Not from above, but as equals. See below for an excerpt at the beginning.
“….With your background am looking forward to your views, really, no irony at all. I love jews, some of the world’s best people are jews. I could give you my 20th century list if you like of my favorites. From gay Leonard to the spiritual Alfred. From the biggest balls in Israel to the most corrupt ones in America.
Unfortunately there are too few in Stockholm. No kosher delis that I know of either. Guess could visit the synagogue as I did the mosque, and mingle afterwards…..”
I went on to answer your questions on Denmark, jews in Sweden, etc.
Hope I have helped our relationship, and patched any ruptures caused by ill advised formulations.
Commoner,
You resemble Tony C. (have you followed his debate with CMC and GeneH?
Tony C, as soon as he sees a trigger word, changes his glasses to a green color, which colors all else he reads as being opposition.
I agree upon reading my post again and yours that I read too much into your post or it would seem confusing it after getting started with the one previously which approved of the video showing disgusting muslims praying in the streets of Paris.
I stand by my comment as to Israel/AIPAC/american jews controlling our economy. I see it in my case as an expression of fact, particularly in the fashion I couched it. See what most see as declared in some documentaries, even friendly ones about jewish women who wish to be cantors in the synagogues which is forbidden apparently. My sources are many but meager. . Am and never have been anti-semitic.
Won’t even take the time to demonstrate so. Have covered it many times before, just recently to SwM in two posts. On being advised of her Jewishness by marriage (?) (still not clear on if she just ignored her own lineage in favor of discussing her husbands?).
How does one approach a declared jew and show ones own position of non-bias. That is my question I pose to myself here. I don’t use status, religion, polical leanings as platforms or causes here.
I have done so successfully with many ME muslims, ME catholics, many ME orthodox, many ME assyriska christians. etc. No problems. Because am an american living in Sweden, which perhaps helps me with those contacts here daily.
But good old America is a different problem. So much have I learned after being away for 40+ years, more or less ignoring the scene there.
So I use caution. But react to what I (incorrectly I admit) felt was a post with anti-muslim slant.
Your line: “This cretin went to Afghanistan to train with Al-Qaeda, and Sarkozy dropped the ball in a major way here. The first responsibility of any country is to protect its citizens from harm.” raised my suspiscion. I questioned if it was outrage behind it, and if revenge lay in your heart. I did not say that either were true. Please note that.
You write:
“…It does not target Palestinian civilians, as many Palestinians do target innocent Israeli civilians. Israel is a democratic country that provides equal freedoms to its 1 million Israeli Muslim population as it does to its Israeli Jewish population…..”
Can’t agree with that, as many Israel resident jews will agree with me—-or rather say I support them as they are on the spot and are jewish.
Operation “Cast Lead” was targeted in large part against the civilian population in the scenes in the videos shown at the time. White phosphorus in cities is a war crime, unequivocably.
I still contend that my words here can be read as consoling and as expressing a question as to how you feel and are motivated—-without pre-judging you.
“We vs Them. Are you consoling yourself with planning revenge on the muslim peoples? Sad, in which case. I should think that collective damnation is a poor solution to this or other problems.
I SHARE some of your anger and the bad taste in your mouth at the idea of moderation, when your blood calls for revenge. I hope it will COOL
If it does not, then it bodes itl for us all.
I DO NOT CONDONE TERRORISM, nor suppression to the point of ethnic cleansing:
—-as Israel has done and does in Palestine.
—-AS MUSLIM EXTREMISTS have done all over the world.”
(my emphasis now)
Hope that helps you better understand my position.
I am opposed to all forms of violence. Even war.
Negotiate until we die. Better that than a single life lost to aggression.
Israel lost the PR war when the suicide attacks ended. Ironlically, that was due to your control measures. Which is part of the stroke-stricken Prime Minister’s baloney strategy, ie slice the Palestines thin, and we win in time. Or what say you. You should be better informed. I’m just a bystander, in a country where the jewish Bonnier family controls media, and has been donators of class.
idealist, It seems like your remarks about the top 1% crossed the line.
SwM
Which one? then to me or the first one on terrorists?
Nice to know where you stand.
http://www.alternet.org/world/154677/toulouse_killings_illuminate_salafist-far_right_alliance_in_france The evidence is not that compelling. But, nevertheless, it is being discussed.
Good post, commoner.
“Israel controls America’s economy through our israeli/jewish population.”
I see. So you believe that jews control the world. Nevermind that most jews that I know are the 99% rather than the 1%. Most Israelis that I know are in the moving business. They are not great economists. Arguing that jews are in control is a classic Anti-Semitic sentiment.
“Lumping all muslims together with this terrorist extremist cretin
as an example, is the kind of thinking that leads us to this point. We vs Them. Are you consoling yourself with planning revenge on the muslim peoples? Sad, in which case. I should think that collective damnation is a poor solution to this or other problems.”
At no time do I lump all Muslims in the terrorist class. I am friendly with Muslims, even some Palestinians. They are not bad people. My statement concerning Islamic fundamentalists is accurate. Those who use religion to kill others are terrorists, it’s that simple.
“Are you consoling yourself with planning revenge on the muslim peoples”
At no time do I mention revenge. As I stated above, I do not have anything against non-fundamentalist Muslims.
“I do not condone terrorism, nor suppression to the point of ethnic cleansing:
—-as Israel has done and does in Palestine.
—-as muslim extremists have done all over the world.”
Israel has a right to defend itself. It does not target Palestinian civilians, as many Palestinians do target innocent Israeli civilians. Israel is a democratic country that provides equal freedoms to its 1 million Israeli Muslim population as it does to its Israeli Jewish population. Israel does not even have the death penalty. Israel has signed peace treaties and is friendly with various predominantly Muslim countries such as Azerbaijan, Egypt and Jordan. They do not hate Muslims and are not interested in “ethnic cleansing”.
“as muslim extremists have done all over the world”
So….uh…you do agree with me that Islamic fundamentalists are bad.
I will assume you may be observing your sabbath, which may hinder answering me.
Commoner,
This agnostic thanks you for the link and your views.
The mother’s letter provides a beautiful view into Judendom, cloaked in sorrow now. Is that site dedicated to sorrow for departed persons?
I, solely as a human, share her sorrow. Her hopes for a better world through her religious observance is commendable.
However, religion is a divisive factor as we witness the deeds of islamic extremists, even in Stockholm, around the world.
So too, do some of us find the revenge exacted on the Palestinians through Operation Cast Lead, as being beyond the bounds of eye for an eye constraints. Or its embodiment in international law fo war, etc.
But in fairness, spending your night in a shelter because of rocket attacks from Gaza is an awful sight to contemplate.
You write:
“I think that Issacharoff who is a very successful author is merely voicing his own opinion. I happen to disagree with him”
I need to understand this. Can you link me?
As for control of the muslims in France, I think we should be glad that the citizen/immigrant control is so loose that it does not breathe down their necks as it potentially can (and does?) here in USA. However Securité searchs just as our LEO’s do.
Lumping all muslims together with this terrorist extremist cretin
as an example, is the kind of thinking that leads us to this point. We vs Them. Are you consoling yourself with planning revenge on the muslim peoples? Sad, in which case. I should think that collective damnation is a poor solution to this or other problems.
I share some of your anger and the bad taste in your mouth at the idea of moderation, when your blood calls for revenge. I hope it will cool.
If it does not, then it bodes itl for us all.
I do not condone terrorism, nor suppression to the point of ethnic cleansing:
—-as Israel has done and does in Palestine.
—-as muslim extremists have done all over the world.
Israel controls America’s economy through our israeli/jewish population. The role of ecnnomic controllers, the one per cent , we discuss often here. Putting a jewish label on them does not make them innocent of selfish deeds, nor does it say they are guilty. It is but a fact, which follows the success of the jewish people in following their tribe’s model. Until the world changes its views on “tribe before nation, (and that includes many peoples) then we wiill always have these problems. Both jewish, muslim and hindus, etc..
http://www.jewishriverside.com/library/article_cdo/aid/1808989
The mother and wife of the Rabbi and his two sons speaks. You can see pictures of the Rabbi, his two sons, and the little girl who were all shot in the head by this monster. If anyone needs an explanation to the Hebrew words she uses I will be happy to oblige. She clearly is a very strong woman whose deep seated faith in God is keeping her steady and sane in this very difficult time. I think that Issacharoff who is a very successful author is merely voicing his own opinion. I happen to disagree with him. Islamic fundamentalism is tied to terror whether the Arab Spring happened or not. This cretin went to Afghanistan to train with Al-Qaeda, and Sarkozy dropped the ball in a major way here. The first responsibility of any country is to protect its citizens from harm. He clearly is doing two things here:
1. Overcompensating for the clear lack of control he has over the Muslim population in France.Sarkozy is a braggart and a charlatan similar in my eyes to Newt Gingrich. Imagine an incompetent like Newt in control of a country where there are millions of angry Muslims running around.
2. What Blouise said. He is trying to cover his own ass and doing a bad job of it.
SwM,
You say through marriage, then assume you are non-jewish, or are you ignoring your own lineage? I ask solely to make a joke. It is said that to prevent non-jewish mothers inculcating their religions to their children was the main reason that marriage outside of judendom was once forbidden.
Worth a gentle chuckle, or was it gross? The ignorant have much to learn.
I’ve read only 3 books, one by two rabbis as a history, another by a israeli archeologist and a historian proclaiming it all is unfounded in fact, from Egypt and forward, and the third by Nathah Shachar who wrote about the jews of arab dominated Spain and of Toledo.
All fascinating and even worth re-reading.
PS If I strung all my crap together, could I get it published? Yeah, if I paid.
SwM,
I agree, it was a well-done disguised op-ed, imho. Just like the stuff we are fed and conditioned by here in the USA and perhaps Sweden—have tuned out of the news here and am following mostly Turley, It fascinates me. And satisfies my need for being outraged about ineguities.
With your background am looking forward to your views, really, no irony at all. I love jews, some of the world’s best people are jews. I could give you my 20th century list if you like of my favorites. From gay Leonard to the spiritual Alfred. From the biggest balls in Israel to the most corrupt ones in America.
Unfortunately there are too few in Stockholm. No kosher delis that I know of either. Guess could visit the synagogue as I did the mosque, and mingle afterwards.
Denmark evacuated their jews to Sweden from the Nazis. What happened then have no idea. They are very sensitive about retaining their Danishness.
In Stockholm there is no sweat about multi-kulti. 10 percent of the faces I meet on my favo walk are foreign origin residents. They are getting established in spite of cultural resistance.
The jewish familty Bonnier dominates the media world here. Have done a small new and fine modern art museum. Another rich jew has sponsored another since years back, one true vibrant culture center.
But i’m no expert on any of this.
Glad to hear of your large family tree, and the fact you are “family”.
Am sure many arabs, muslim jewish or catholic would enjoy swapping family histories with you—if only we could meet as humans.
Just as my Assyrist Orthodox christians would also with their 500 guest weddings which I’ve written about. A much younger collegue at work some years ago (lebanes) mentioned he would have over 700 guests at his wedding when he went home. Mistreated (certainly) by culturally blind Swedes he expressed disdain in his eyes for their poverty of social anchors in family. I wonder which world is best? You experience both.
As for the mother—-don’t know anything. Was this to do with the terrorist in France? I have to ration my news. I am still fighting my 75 year old obsession in shouldering the problems of the world, acting police, prosecutor, judge, and lawmaker to correct all ills. A not enviable position—am slowly getting it subdued.
If you must, tell me. I am in spite of my verbosity a good listener some say.
Woosty,
thanks for the post, telling in a way, I don’t think either the French guide or the American video commenter understood. Now if it had been a bunch of young muslims having an outdoor party with dancing to western pop, and showing western DVDs etc, I guess that would have delighted them both.
Please understand the Frenchman have Notre Dame, and the muslims the street to do their 5 times a day duty to god. Notre Dame was built with church and state support. Let the Saudis pay for a mosque, or send the muslims home. It is the harvest of French colonies, just as the blacks are.
And it is the same in England. Colonization bears bitter fruit.
The commentator compares their 600 year old barbarism (did he say that word—outrageous if so?) with the 21st century avaiability of info through commercial channels. I suppose the century old forced attendance of at least social reasons to Catholic churchs excaped his notice.
The massing together in an environment where you are not welcome seems a natural outlet in reaction to repression. The muslims definitely seek comfort in being together prostrate in the praise of Allah. Their solidarity in their prayers which I have seen at mosque in Stockhollm is heartwarming to see. The only exhortation I could hear was one to give more to poor people.
The first native Algerians in France were compared to and treated as merde. It has certainly not got better because NA will no longer support the masses there. They don’t want to come to France, but competing at the bottom of their homelands’ economic pyramid is not fun either.
The slinging of Sunni, Shia, and other divisive terms and as convenient terms which can be turned into pejoratives is a well-known tactic.
Reb” Yank! Dem Rep add your own to the list. Hun, chink.
After Vietnam, Americans flying from Japan (as I did) were offered other seating to get away from viewing Vietnamese families on their way to Los Angeles. They were re-uniting with family evacuated as supporters who left by landing boat or helicopter from Saigon. And yet there were those who despised them; just as our soldiers were despised.
Crazy world, and not getting better.
Idealist, I have 400 plus Jewish relatives through marriage. One celebrated her 101st birthday last week. We have a large family tree. Some live in Tel Aviv. Can’t understand why there is no sympathy on here for the mother that lost her children.
idealist, Retweets are not endorsements but I thought it was an interesting point of view that was stated responsibly. The situation cannot be explained by taking black or white positions. Achieving the right balance is difficult. From what I saw of Denmark, there is a largely segregated muslim population and virtually no jewish population. It is quite a bit different in France. What is it like in Sweden?
Ernie,
Good point, yours
You can do health visits to NIH, just get youself a sickness first.
.
MabelMabel,
Am not hip in the area. Could this be a definition of a sociopath?
One who conceives of the world as composed of enemies.
Do revise or complete as needed.
SwM
My interp of your granting space ot Harettz assumes that silence implies implicit support of the views proposed. Do you see it so? I’m a beginner still.
To me it was obviously mediaspeak, and most clearly Israeli slanted before the signoff. Things like this:
“But ultimately, even if Merah “only” shared Al-Qaida’s views and was not an integral part of the organization, it is clear that extremist Islam is trying to lash out in order to prove it is still relevant in the wake of the Arab Spring.”
are clear in their origin. It was in toto a perfect example of slick packaging and spin. Little facts, but much message.
That is what we face daily in our media channels.
Thanks anyway for posting it. Don’t know you well, or anyone here, so no prejudice possible; just a reaction to the article with my blinders in place.
Islamist bashing makes me react, as you all may have noticed. But it is all only a reason to analyze, comparing one view with another, no more.
No principles here other than we are all humans, under our religious chains.
Some people visit sites to learn about how to understand, report on, or combat terrorism. In the US, journalists, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and mental health professionals come to mind as groups who have a vested interest in trying to understand the sociopathic mind. So, it’s more than just a “free speech” issue.