Medical Report On Zimmerman Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations, and Back Injury

The evidence for the trial of George Zimmerman is slowly taking form. Yesterday, a medical report was disclosed by the family physician of George Zimmerman where the doctor found a “closed fracture” of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Trayvon Martin. While this is the family physician, it would still constitute important evidence in claiming self-defense, particularly when combined with accounts from the paramedics that found injuries to Zimmerman. An autopsy report released today also revealed bruises on Martin’s knuckles, consistent with a fight (though they could be bruises sustained in self-defense). In the meantime, the Justice Department has indicated that it may bring hate crime charges against Zimmerman — charges that would be questionable on the current evidence that has been made public in the case.

The prosecution is likely to explore any differences between the paramedics and the doctor. Some issues are likely to be raise such as whether the paramedics saw a broken nose and whether such “closed fractures” can be easily missed by a paramedic on an street at night.  Moreover, such injuries could be sustained by Zimmerman as a result of Martin defending himself.

The leak of possible civil rights charges may be designed to try to get Zimmerman to accept a plea with prosecutors. I have reservations about such a charge based on the evidence that is available — as I have expressed over the overcharging in the case as second degree murder. This case has already raised serious questions of the influence of public pressure on the prosecutors. While there may be additional evidence that would support such a hate crime charge, the current evidence, in my view, falls short of the threshold showing needed for such a charge. The crime is defined as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.” The “in part” component gives some wiggle room for prosecutors but you need to still show clear intent on the race issue. While state courts have rejected the need under state law for race to be the “primary” factor, there remains unease in cases where race appears a secondary issue. The Justice Department has sometimes moved against defendants who were acquitted of the same offense under state law as in the Pennsylvania case involving the death of a hispanic man. These cases raise serious questions of when trash talk reflects racial motivations.

We have seen the same type of claim under “Stand Your Ground” in mixed-race shootings without such hate crime allegations. I have previously express unease over the standard used for hate crime charges and the decision to pursue some cases while refusing to move on others with similar or stronger facts. This is a case that could be explained as a crime-obsessed as opposed to a race-obsessed neighborhood watch captain. Indeed, Zimmerman’s past violent record may indicate that he is prone to violence generally. There has been no new evidence revealed that shows that Zimmerman’s shooting was race motivated. His own mixed race background and injuries from the fight militate against such a charge. They certainly do not rule out such a charge, but more has to be shown in my view.

The case is already over-charged as second degree murder. If the Justice Department is going to bring a hate crime charge, it better have stronger evidence than we have seen from Angela Corey to support a second-degree murder charge. Corey was in my view clearly affected by the public pressure in the case in charging the case as second degree murder rather than manslaughter. I am equally troubled by Attorney General Eric Holder discussing the case in public speeches when his department is supposed to be conducting an unbiased review of the facts involving a man who has not been convicted of a crime.

The combination of the leak on the civil rights charges and Holder’s public statements leave the impression that the DOJ will not accept acquittal as an answer in the case if Zimmerman does prevail. The impression, in my view, diminishes the appearance of due process and fair trial for the accused.

What do you think?

Source: ABC

342 thoughts on “Medical Report On Zimmerman Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations, and Back Injury

  1. I never thought this case was about race.

    It was about power and a ‘gatekeeper’ who abused his power.

  2. The feds’ investigation is one of the most interesting parts of this case.
    I eagerly await seeing something from them.
    Meanwhile, “evidence” is not slowly taking form, I have to disagree with Professor Turley on that point. What I think is happening is that bits of information are flying about that cannot be evaluated very carefully because they are presented in secondary reported forms. News sources “confirm” doctors’ reports that were amazingly absent from the discussions early on, etc.

    None of it, of course, changes much.

    None of it changes the salient facts:

    Zimmerman, with no authority and no clear motive, and while knowing that he was carrying a lethal weapon, actively sought out and produced a confrontation with an unknown, unarmed youth, and after seeking out and producing that confrontation, SAYS that he was getting the worse end of the confrontation so he killed his targeted prey.

    No injuries on the aggressor can change that set of facts.

    Defense counsel can spin things, and Zimmerman can weep and wail, but those facts are very stubborn.

  3. I fail to see why second degree murder is overcharging. I read that even a simple bar fight that results in death is considered second degree murder. So I cannot understand why pulling a deadly weapon in a fist fight does not meet the test for murder in the second degree.

    I have some experience is such fights, and the injuries Zimmerman had on the back of his head were not so severe that I can think his head was being slammed into the concrete by fists or hands. He would have bled a LOT more if that had been the case. All the nose fracture says is that he was hit there, big deal. It was not dislocated or thrust up, so it was a minor hit which you can get playing most any sport or even in wrestling. In short, Zimmerman was NOT being severely beaten to the point that he could fear for his life. He was also an experienced bar fighter himself, so I know that he knew the difference between life threatening hits and a fist fight. Then there is the FACT that Martin had no object or weapon that he was using.

    My question is, does losing a fist fight justify using deadly force? What is the law on such question?

  4. “crime obsessed”? Why not “crime conscious”? This excellent investigative piece by Reuters uncovers a lot of the missing information from the run up to the shooting. For example, Zimmerman bought the gun he ultimately used to shoot Trayvon Martin, in order to protect he and his wife from a pitbull that frequently got loose in their neighborhood. It was an animal control officer for the county that suggested he carry a gun instead of pepper spray. There also was a history of break ins and at least one home invasion in his neighborhood immediately preceding his encounter with Trayvon Martin.

    George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

  5. I read something interesting yesterday. In the UK once charges are brought there is a press blackout on the case & it is illegal to do stories about the evidence, rumors, etc. I understand that runs counter to the free press myth in America but damn do I wish we had that here.

    The tiny lose would be more than compensated for by the lack of Nancy Grace on TV and the absence of all the BS news stories (usually leaked by one side or the other) would just be a giant cherry on top of the sundae.

  6. That animal control officer was wrong. After my home invasion the police told me to get a pit bull instead of a gun!

    Malisha; really enjoy reading your posts on this case. Lots of food for thought.

  7. Agree with anon nurse, why didn’t he go to the ER that night?

    Afraid that the ‘injuries’ would be documented to actually be as minor as they looked on the police booking video tape?

  8. There are also reports that Martin’s autopsy shows injuries to his knuckles.

    SANFORD, Fla. — WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.

    The information could support George Zimmerman’s claim that Martin beat him up before Zimmerman shot and killed him.

    The autopsy results come as Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara continues to go over other evidence in the case.

    O’Mara wouldn’t comment on the autopsy evidence, but WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said it’s better for the defense than it is for the prosecution.

    WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.

    When you compare Trayvon’s non-fatal injury with Zimmerman’s bloody head wounds, the autopsy evidence is better for the defense, Sheaffer said.

    “It goes along with Zimmerman’s story that he acted in self-defense, because he was getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin,” Sheaffer said.

    The injury to Martin’s knuckle also fits with Zimmerman’s story that before he shot and killed Martin, Martin had broken his nose and knocked him to the ground, slamming his head on the sidewalk.

    But Sheaffer said there could be another explanation for Martin’s knuckle injury.

    “It could be consistent with Trayvon either trying to get away or defend himself,” Sheaffer said.

    Zimmerman shot and killed the unarmed teenager almost three months ago after calling 911 to report the teenager was acting suspiciously.

    Zimmerman said Martin threw the first punch and that he opened fire in self-defense after his screams for help went unanswered.

    The FBI was not able to determine whether it was Zimmerman or Trayvon who could be heard crying out for help in 911 calls but has stated they are using Computer Aided Automatic Scream Identification (CAASI) technology to resolve the issue.

  9. “a medical report was disclosed by the family physician”

    Someone with a nose for this sort of thing might say “it reeks”…

  10. How come we have not seen a mug shot from the night of the shooting? Was he not booked at that point?

    The video we’ve all seen of him at the station, imo, does not indicate any injuries and there certainly aren’t visible black eyes.

    I have a hard time knowing what/who to believe in this case…but ultimately, it is as Malisha says, an armed individual sought out another individual who he was told not to pursue by the police because he was crazed by recent crime sprees. Martin may have fought back, would he not have that right if he’s being followed for no good reason?

    To me an innocent child lost his life because of vigilantism.

  11. Given what we know right now….

    I have plenty of reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed murder or that Martin didn’t attack Zimmerman first, or sufficiently enough to put Zimmerman in a reasonable fear for his life.

    I have no doubt that I would not want many of the Turley Blog stalwarts on a jury, or anywhere near a court of law.

    Group think. Illiberals. Ugly lynch mob.

  12. An excellent breakdown of the Zimmerman medical reports by Jeralyn Merritt at Talk Left:

    “Even if Zimmerman somehow was found to be the aggressor, all that does is trigger a duty to retreat, if possible. If retreat isn’t possible, and he feared serious bodily injury or death from Trayvon’s physical attack on him, he can still use deadly force.

    776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or…”

  13. Googling, a “closed fracture” is:

    “closed fracture one that does not produce an open wound in the skin”
    “Closed (simple) fractures: are those in which the skin is intact”

    I’ve had plenty of closed fractures then, but never an open fracture.

    Given that, it’s not clear to me that “closed fracture” needs scare quotes.

    And anon nurse, while I agree that the report coming from the family physician is much more suspect than had it come from an ER, can you confirm that nose fractures are sometimes very difficult to diagnose? It’s what I’ve heard at any rate, and I have a vast knowledge of watching TV to rely on for my medical information.

  14. The protections of a jury trial are effectively nullified by a government that overcharges defendants, forcing them to plea to avoid the risks of extreme sentences government can impose if they refuse.

  15. I hope that Trayvon got in a couple punches before that thug shot him.

    In no case can I see where the murderer can claim self defense when he was the one stalking & terrorizing the kid who was doing nothing but trying to walk home. What the hell kind of country have we become when a bully thinks he can shoot someone because he is suspicious of him?

    You ask what we think Mr. Turley…..Here’s what I think. I think that the reason Zimmerman didn’t go to the ER the night of the crime is because he had no injuries. I think that the scratches on the back of his head were self inflicted to try to make his story look believable. I think that the so called “closed broken nose” & the black eyes were either self inflicted later after he was released or someone in his family helped him out on that account. And yes I would be very suspicious of the doctor, especially if he is a friend of the murderer’s daddy, the judge who has already managed to get his bullying son out of trouble on a number of occasions.

    I think Zimmerman was a neighborhood terrorist, not a watchman. I also think that he is as racist as they come. I don’t care if he is mixed race. It’s obvious that he thinks he is white and that his ‘whitness’ makes him special. To all of his stories, I say ‘Bullschitt’! He wanted an excuse to use that big gun of his and he made that excuse by stalking & shooting the kid in cold blood. He is a cold blooded murderer…….period.

    That’s what I think Mr. Turley.

  16. @shano,

    I find Malisha’s comments interesting and some of the most insightful, but I fear she has shown her bias on this many times, just as she revealed a misandric bias against men a few days ago.

    Malisha has many times pointed out an interesting question, what does the Martin autopsy say about the bullet’s trajectory, specifically the angle of entry.

    But I am curious, in the absence of the bullet’s trajectory, which I do agree is very interesting, what sort of evidence would it take for Malisha, or others to have a reasonable doubt?

    Maybe people should speak up now as to describe the evidence they would need to have a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman murdered Martin (in the second degree.)

  17. Good point. On Zimmerman in order to prove fear of death or great bodily harm there should be swelling on the injuries on the back of his head. The back of his head should have a LOT of blood, FAR more than what has been shown. There should be a pool of blood on the ground where Zimmerman’s head was supposedly being slammed into the pavement. I would like to see at least a hairline fracture of the skull or other evidence of major force trauma to the back of his head. His nose should have been dislocated or at least swollen FAR more than what I have seen.

    On Martin there should be powder burns on his hoodie where the gun was fired at point blank range. The bullet trajectory should be consistent with being fired from Zimmerman on his back and Martin in close proximity to him. Any other set of facts, will demolish Zimmerman’s claims.

  18. Ok Rafflaw. Waiting for your predictable assertion that you know Zimmerman’s injuries were fabricated and he is unquestionably guilty of second degree murder (although your exposure to the evidence is limited to what’s been disclosed in the media). Don’t disappoint me!

  19. Anon, I already told you what I would need for reasonable doubt:

    1. That the taped call from Zim to the poice was a fake;
    2. That the 911 calls of the others to the police were fakes;
    3. That it was untrue that Martin was unarmed;
    4. That the police really did take Zim to the hospital from the crime scene and he was tested for everything, and the blood on him was tested etc.

    Check back, I said it already.

    But then, I will not be on the jury so it doesn’t matter.

    As to my being misandrist, that’s not true but it doesn’t matter that you think so. In fact, anybody who wants to think that is welcome to; for me, it provides good cover at times. And since I am not interested in your (or others’) approval, form your opinions as best you will. [GRAMMAR POLICE!]

  20. anon, most of us will never have reasonable doubt because Zimmerman stalked and confronted Martin without IDENTIFYING HIMSELF.

    The whole incident would have been avoided if Zimmerman had simply answered the question Martin asks: “Why are you following me?”.

    Identify yourself George! Why the hell not? Zimmerman caused the whole incident. Even if the court does not find him ‘guilty’ we all know that George, and George alone, caused this death.

  21. Shano, I want to thank you.
    I am writing because something is MOVING ME to write.
    I have written this way in the past but not the same way, and not publicly.
    The connection between me and the reader is becoming something of real value to me, even a reader who opposes me.

  22. @Malisha,

    “Anon, I already told you what I would need for reasonable doubt:

    1. That the taped call from Zim to the poice was a fake;
    2. That the 911 calls of the others to the police were fakes;
    3. That it was untrue that Martin was unarmed;
    4. That the police really did take Zim to the hospital from the crime scene and he was tested for everything, and the blood on him was tested etc.

    Check back, I said it already.”

    So apparently since no one thinks Martin was armed or that the cops tooks Zimmerman to the hospital, (right?) What you are saying is that the 911 calls tell 100% of the story for you? (Plus I suspect the bullet evidence from the autopsy?)

    Sigh, I admit I have no idea what you’re saying here, but even so, that seems dramatically at odds with what the teevee shows have beamed to me about what “reasonable doubt” means.

    But then, I will not be on the jury so it doesn’t matter.

    As we’ve seen in the case of Rodney King I think it does matter what people not in the jury think about the results. And even in other cases like Caysey Anthony, it is interesting to learn what other people believe about a case because it helps inform everyone about what the law is about, what the law can do, what the limitations are, etc. in the US.

    In this case, at this blog, a very salient question is: can the people shouting most loudly for Zimmerman’s conviction ever have a reasonable doubt?

    You seem to be saying that for you, the answer is “no”.

  23. @Shano,

    “anon, most of us will never have reasonable doubt because Zimmerman stalked and confronted Martin without IDENTIFYING HIMSELF.

    The whole incident would have been avoided if Zimmerman had simply answered the question Martin asks: “Why are you following me?”.

    Identify yourself George! Why the hell not? Zimmerman caused the whole incident. Even if the court does not find him ‘guilty’ we all know that George, and George alone, caused this death.”

    Well, … thank you.

  24. The verdict will be not guilty. The jury will take a half hour for lunch and still only be out for a few hours. Show us the map of the neighborhood by the way. Show us the path each took. Is the hoodie kid walking through a so called gated community? Was he off the street sidewalk or on some other pathway? If I am on my back and some schmuck is breaking my nose I would shoot the sumbitch.

  25. Reasonable Doubt:

    Can it be reasonably doubted that Zimmerman grabbed Martin? -The answer, at this point, would have to be YES. According to Sling, we will never know who physically touched who first. That’s important because the prosecution would need to establish that Martin hit Zimmerman in self-defense. As Sling points out, the prosecution can’t do that.

    Can it be reasonably doubted that Martin punched Zimmerman? -I think not. The injury to Martin’s knuckles and the injury to Zimmerman’s face coincide with that taking place.

    Was Martin’s assault on Zimmerman sufficient to justify the use of deadly force by Zimmerman? That will be up to the judge or jury to decide. “According to Arthur Randolph Erb” and others, Zimmerman would have had to have already suffered injuries sufficient to cause his death before he could be in reasonable fear that any continued injury could result in his death. –How high do we set the bar when it comes to determining if a reasonable person would be in fear for their life or serious bodily harm? How long must you cry out for help before you can determine that help is not likely to arrive in time? How many times can a person put their hand over your mouth and nose before it would be reasonable to determine that they are trying to kill you?

    If you’re drunk or stoned, does that eliminate your right to defend yourself? Some here are very bothered by the fact that Zimmerman doesn’t appear to have been tested. Would it matter? Why?

    At this point there is nothing in the public record that would preclude Zimmerman from exercising deadly force against Martin, if the need to do so was evident. (In other words, we don’t have any evidence that Zimmerman was engaged in any crime against Martin or one of his neighbors prior to Martin punching him in the nose.)

    It seems that a number of those posting comments here feel that Zimmerman could never have been justified in his use of deadly force against Martin. It’s of no value to debate anything with them.

  26. anon, Expanding on the holes in Zimmerman’s story, the laws of physics and anatomy argue against him. In the first place anatomy says that it is near impossible for a person to hit another in the face from behind if Martin attacked Z from behind. Then the laws of physics state that objects moving in one direction have momentum. So that means that if Martin attacked from behind, Z should have landed on his FACE not the back of his head!

    I think a more likely scenaio is that Z came up on Martin from behind and grabbed his arm to turn him around and confront him. As Martin turned, he either hit Marin in the face as he turned since he was already aware of his being stalked. Then Martin either followed the blow with his body taking Z down, or he simply lunged at him and knocked him down, then hit him. THAT is more consistent with Zs injuries and his winding up on his back.

    As one who has been in a number of fights, I know damn well that if a person I had on their back pulled a gun on me, I would have gotten up and run. I think that is what Martin did too. Zimmerman was either still on his back and shot him after he was retreating or got up and shot him from a distance so powder residue would not be as much on his hoodie.

    I also wonder how Z got his gun out if Martin was continuing to hit him in the face. The normal human reaction for most people is to protect their face with both fists or hands. An experienced fighter might not do that, but still would have at least one hand free for defense. My guess is that there was some pause in Martin’s blows which enabled Z to grab for his gun. At that point, Martin would have jumped up and backed off, or if Martin was still on top and had no time to get off, his clothing has to show powder burns.

    Given the slight injuries to Zimmerman, it is near impossible for me to think he had any reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. With not all the facts in, my guess is that he shot Martin with no good reason other than anger and hatred at being bested by a person who he thought was a crook. THAT is second degree murder NOT manslaughter.

  27. “anon, most of us will never have reasonable doubt because Zimmerman stalked and confronted Martin without IDENTIFYING HIMSELF.”

    Stalked? Really? How this went from “following” when Martin ran (and then breaking off any following after the police dept. told Zimmerman that they didn’t need him to do that. -To which Zimmerman responded with “Okay”) to stalking is amazing.

    Confronted? Who confronted who? Even Martin’s girlfriend says that Martin was the first to question Zimmerman.

    Hell, we don’t even know if Martin actually did say “Why are you following me?” to Zimmerman. Martin’s girlfriend is said to have claimed that, but Zimmerman says that Martin said “You got a fucking problem?”

    I can see either statement to be potentially true. The second would go a long way to understand why Martin punched Zimmerman. Martin was pissed that Zimmerman would be following him, but that alone would not justify Martin hitting Zimmerman.

  28. Anon Nurse said:

    “Zimmerman should have gone to a local ER on the night of the incident, IMO.”


    And even thought I do not in any way favor enacting laws on a whim, I see no good reason whatsoever why – in a case like this – anybody claiming self-defense in a Homicide – ought not be required to be examined at the local ER immediately.

    I would view a Zimmerman physical exam, immediately after the incident, as simply a matter of the preservation of frangible evidence.

  29. DLarry’s contention is absurd since any fist fight would be sufficient reason to pull a gun and kill a person. So any killing is justified if there is a fight, that flies in the face of common sense and law. I can tell you if you use a gun on a person who punched you in the face, even in Texas you will be facing murder charges.

  30. Patrick,

    I agree. It would have been a good idea to take Zimmerman to be checked out. I’m not so sure the ER is the place to go, but I do think it would have been helpful to have an independent source document the extent of his injuries.

    Can a person, taken into custody, but not arrested, refuse medical treatment? Would forcing the person to undergo a medical examination violate the person’s Fifth Amendment rights?

  31. Well I was unaware that such a detailed report was available to the public, or you have some incredible sources or just conjecture. If your statement is correct about Marin’s hand being on the gun as it was fired, then there should be MAJOR burns on Martin’s hand since the slide goes back from the gas of the fired bullet and ejects the shell. Those gases are HOT as hell and would leave major marks on his hand. I am unaware that the coroner reported that too.

  32. Exactly, ARE. Further, I punched a stalker in the face a couple of times in the ’90’s and was well within my legal rights to do so.

  33. DLarry it was reported that Z’s story was that Martin attacked him from behind as he was returning to his car. It was NOT that they had a face to face confronation. If he wants to change his story, or if he has, then it does not look good for him now.

    Also you have not explained or shown any concern about the bullet or the proximity of Martin to Z when he was shot. As for Z calling for help, he is the ONLY one who says that. From my personal experience in fights, I was always too bamn busy to yell anything.

  34. “I’m not so sure the ER is the place to go -David Larry

    We have forensic MDs and RNs who are “on call” in our ER. Surely there are some in the Sanford/Orlando area, as well.

  35. To those who wonder why Zimmerman did not go to the ER. It is obvious that his injuries were so slight that THREE sets of people, the cops, the paramedics, and Z himself knew that the injuries did NOT require immediate medical attention. Hell, when I wound up with some head wounds in a fight, I just grabbed napkins off the bar to stop the bleeding, and drove myself to the ER. Head wounds bleed like a stuck pig even when they are not that bad. So that is why it is absurd to think that the scratches Z got were the result of a major fight or injury that could or would cause death or serious injury.

  36. @Arthur,

    “I was always too bamn busy to yell anything.”

    Okay, fess up, was that an intentional or just delightful pun?

  37. ARE,

    Are you saying that I couldn’t kill you, or cause serious bodily harm, by punching you in the face? Or are you just sayin’ that a reasonable person wouldn’t be able to recognize that to be a potential consequence?

    Do I need to have a weapon (other than my fists) before I could kill you, or cause serious bodily harm?

    Let’s get a few things straight:

    It is against the law to commit battery.

    It is not against the law to consider someone to be suspicious.

    It is not against the law to follow that suspicious person to see where they are going.

    It is not against the law to ask the suspicious person where they are going, or what their purpose for being there is.

    It is not against the law to refuse to answer the questions.

    Prior to being shot, the evidence points to Martin committing the crime of battery. We currently have no evidence that would justify Martin hitting Zimmerman. (We have a bunch of scenarios where it may have been justified as a means of self-dense on Martin’s part, but we don’t have any evidence to support it.)

    We have no evidence of Zimmerman battering or assaulting Martin.

  38. “Also you have not explained or shown any concern about the bullet or the proximity of Martin to Z when he was shot.”


    The lead investigator described Martin as being shot at close range. There were powder burns on Martin’s clothing. The initial bullet was ejected, but the new bullet did not chamber. This comports with the scenario that Martin had his hand(s) on the gun as it was being fired.

  39. Yale-alummy,
    I am a little confused(more than normal), why you are calling me out? I have not even made a comment on this thread yet. Since you can’t wait for my opinion, here it is. I am surprised that someone with the injuries stated in the physician’s report would not seek out medical help immediately after the incident. If you had a possible broken nose along with two black eyes and the lacerations on the back of your head, a normal person would likely go to an emergency room. Were the injuries fabrcated? Is the family physician falsely claiming these injuries? I would doubt it, but the jury will decide. Besides, when I am carrying a gun and stalking someone, doesn’t Martin have a right to stand his ground? Are you happy now?

  40. Were the injuries fabrcated? Is the family physician falsely claiming these injuries? I would doubt it, but the jury will decide. -rafflaw

    I agree, rafflaw.

  41. Do I need to have a weapon (other than my fists) before I could kill you, or cause serious bodily harm?

    Even in Texas where I live, you DO have to have a weapon in your hand before you are justified in using deadly force. Try pulling a gun in a fist fight here, you will either get shot by somebody else who is carrying, or you will be arrested, or disarmed by others, or go to prison for a LONG time for murder.

  42. ARE, thanks for the detail and the analysis. Very important stuff.

    Rafflaw, thanks for the clarification. I don’t know who else is happy now but I AM!

  43. “Even in Texas where I live, you DO have to have a weapon in your hand before you are justified in using deadly force.”

    Bullshit at its finest. Show us the statutory provision or court holding that requires a weapon (beyond that of fists) before deadly force can be exercised in self-defense? Just another surface thinker showing us all how the damage from too many fist fights has affected his brain.

  44. DLarry go to the statutes on the use of deadly force in Texas. The standard is a reasonable person in Texas. Since most of us have been in fist fights, we know what a reasonable person is in such cases. Use a gun on a person who hit you with his fist, you WILL either be dead or in jail for murder. Now in some places I know that even a slap is life threatening and may well justify deadly force..

  45. ARE,

    You are not required to have been injured to the point of sustaining serious bodily harm before lethal force can be justified. You just need to reasonably deduce that the person attacking you is trying to inflict such harm.

    As far as not thinking you need to go to the ER: I have seen a number of people who didn’t think they sustained injuries sufficient to make the trip necessary. Zimmerman stopped any further beating by shooting Martin. If he had not shot Martin, when would Martin have stopped beating him? One more? Two more? Ten more?

    We know that Zimmerman was injured. (at least reasonable people find the photo, the police report, and the doctor’s exam sufficient to establish that.)

  46. Wow! So many conflicting scenarios result in reasonable doubt about what really happened = Zimmerman gets off.

    It appears that the cops didn’t do their job of gathering/preserving the evidence so it may be that the discrepancies will never be sorted out by objective means. It will depend more on which lawyer argues most ably.

    Oh, wait, those on this blog aren’t witnesses or jury members. I’ll wait for the trial.

    The discussion in interesting anyway.

  47. The initial bullet was ejected, but the new bullet did not chamber. This comports with the scenario that Martin had his hand(s) on the gun as it was being fired.

    David, could I have a link to what youe alluding to here. Is this part of an official police report?

  48. There was another reason not to take Zimmerman to the ER (or to cancel the second ambulance) that night; Z and the cops had already worked out a deal ON THE SCENE so they did not want to involve anyone else in their deal. They also were not worried about documenting Z’s injuries; isn’t that strange? If they were going to question him, perhaps he would have admitted murder! Perhaps they then would have had to prove that his injuries were NOT inflicted in that interview room to defend themselves against brutality charges.

    NO WAY you pick up a bleeding, dazed, broke-nosed suspect and take him in directly for questioning before medical treatment, NO NO NO NO NO.

    Only if you are sure he cannot accuse YOU of anything would you do that — and the only way to be sure of THAT would be — right — you have something on HIM and he has something on YOU..

    Hello Feds, iron this one out, OK?

  49. ARE,

    Maybe I should have presented a scenario in which I was beating the crap out of your grandmother with only my fists. No one else is around.

    Do you think a continued beating might kill her, or cause serious bodily injury? If she only had a gun, do you think she could justify using it? do you really think a jury would not consider that to be reasonable?

  50. I don’t think Zimmerman will take kindly to comparing him and his fighting abilities to a granny! You can think of many scenarios that would allow the use of deadly force without a weapon. In fact, a guy I know went to prison for killing a guy in a bar fight. Of course, he was a martial arts master, drunk, and killed him with only a couple of punches, but I don’t think that any jury in Texas at least would think that what Z did was reasonable or needed to stop Martin from killing him or causing great bodily harm.

    AS for BS, I suggest you show us the report on the gun being held by Martin and the round not being chambered.

  51. “Z and the cops had already worked out a deal ON THE SCENE so they did not want to involve anyone else in their deal.”

    Or maybe it was because the ER personnel would have figured out that Zimmerman was not really human. Maybe they would have figured out that nothing on earth could kill him. His only weakness is krypton.

    I mean, if we’re just going to make things up, why stop at the police making a deal with Zimmerman?

  52. “If they were going to question him, perhaps he would have admitted murder!”

    They did question him…for many hours…at least three different times.

    They did document Zimmerman’s injuries. It’s in the police report.

    “NO WAY you pick up a bleeding, dazed, broke-nosed suspect and take him in directly for questioning before medical treatment, NO NO NO NO NO.”

    The paramedics treated Zimmerman at the scene, while he was in the back of the police car. –Not to interfere with the things you want to fabricate. No No No.

  53. @BettyKath

    “Wow! So many conflicting scenarios result in reasonable doubt about what really happened = Zimmerman gets off.”

    Yeah, I would say, isn’t that one basis of US law going back as far as the Bible?

    If you have two or more conflicting and seemingly plausible scenarios, all of which correspond to the evidence, isn’t that the empirical definition of reasonable doubt?'s_formulation

    better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer

    More authoritarian personalities are supposed to have taken the opposite view; Bismarck is believed to have stated that “it is better that ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man escape;”[1] and Pol Pot[8] made similar remarks. Wolfgang Schäuble[9] referenced this principle while saying that it is not applicable to the context of preventing terrorist attacks.

    Alexander Volokh cites an apparent questioning of the principle, with the tale of a Chinese professor who responds, “Better for whom?”

  54. One thing that is plainly obvious from this thread is that there is a lot of “information” running around the Intertubes that may, or may not, be factual. Some may, or may not, be hearsay, misdirection or even made up lies. Yet you all act as if you KNOW what the facts are. Additionally, the facts that are indeed facts may, or may not, be presented in court because of the rules of evidence.

    Some of the stuff I have read above as fact is quite clearly conjecture (to put it mildly) and accepted as divine revelation because it proves what the poster whats to believe. It is beyond pointless to argue with those people. It is particularly pointless in light of not having any assurance that what I have heard is in fact a fact.

  55. ARE,

    Call it insider information if you want. Here’s the blog post from one of the leading experts on self-defense.

    The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired.

    What? No severe burns. ARE (the bar fight expert) vs. the recognized self-defense expert. I’m going with the recognized expert.

    This is not the first time Massad Ayoob is being brought up. One of your regular PsychoPundits (Otteray Scribe) thought he understood how Massad Ayoob would think about this case. Otteray Scribe was wrong.

    Mr. Ayoob recently participated in a Cato Institute forum regarding Stand Your Ground Laws. Ayoob referred to objections to Stand You Ground as being “somewhere between weak and bogus”.

  56. I see that you did not read the article since we DO know more now. Martin was NOT on any drugs. The autopsy did NOT reveal any burns on his hands, or at least none were reported. The report he cited does NOT exist, and the results from the autopsy also contradict any so called report Martin had his hand on the gun. The term it is “reported” is a good dodge that journalists can use to introduce bogus material as was done in this case. There was no grand jury, the prosecutor found more then sufficient evidence to directly charge Zimmerman with murder. The expert here said that burns would HAVE to be present by the way, and I agree with him and I wrote that BEFORE you posted this.

    To recap so far. We do know that Zimmerman stated he was attacked by Martin as Z was returning to his car. Unfortunately, physics say that would be impoosible since Z would have fallen on his FACE. Unless of course, you think Z is possessed and can do the Linda Blair thing. Then we do know that the injuries of Z were so SLIGHT than three sets of observers, the cops, the paramedics, and Z did NOT think his injuries even required a cursory look at an ER. Thus it is unreasonable for Z to have used deadly force even assuming his story is right, which is very doubtful. I am taking Zs story at face value and showing all the holes in it.

  57. By the way, ask some folks who have had major cuts on their scalp about how much they bled. Then ask yourself if the picture of Zimmerman’s head indicates any major cut. Those are SCRATCHES which he probably got when he fell backwards onto the pavement.

  58. DL, If you want to stand behind the SYG law, that’s fine. Although the Governor said that the SYG law didn’t apply to this case, I would say that it actually does, because FIRST Martin tried to run (“Shit, he’s running”) and then, when that didn’t work, tried to defend himself by standing his ground.

    But that aside, you quoted an expert as saying:

    “This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired.”

    THe first part of the sentence talks about something that “would indicate” a struggle for the gun was taking place.

    The second part of the sentence comments “as COULD certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places IF FOUND on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s)…”

    The first – would.
    The second – could.

    The second – IF —

    You’re suggesting perhaps that Trayvon Martin was trying to get ahold of that gun with his knuckles?

    I’d wait to see the whole autopsy report before concuding much more about the struggle that nobody alive except the shooter actually saw. I think any expert would also want to read through the whole report.

    And if an expert did read through the whole report and find out that Trayvon Martin not only punched, lunged, pushed, pulled, and banged, smashed, beat and slammed Zimmerman while trying to defend his own life, but that in addition he tried to get the gun away from the guy who he presumed was trying to shoot him, I would STILL say that he was doing all that to prevent himself from being shot to death, and that his valiant efforts only failed because Zimmerman had the drop on him to start with.

  59. ARE, there is a young witness who said that GZ “tripped and fell”. this could explain a lot. I cannot remember where I saw this but will try to find it.

  60. shano if Z tripped and fell it would explain nothing at all since he would have fallen on his face. if he were attacked from behind as he reportedly told the cops, he would also fall forward, and the scrapes on the back of his head would be on his forehead, NOT the back.

  61. Shano, it was that 13-year-old whose mother claims the police were leading him and trying to make him change his story, after the fact.

  62. ARE,

    Have you reviewed the full autopsy report? If not, how do you know what additional information is contained therein? Do you know all the places they found gunpowder residue? Do you know if they were able to determine if any gunpowder residue on Martin’s hands came from putting his hand on the gun as opposed to grabbing his chest after being shot?

    I never said that the blog post by Ayoob was something new. I pointed it out because Ayoob is much better qualified to arrive at conclusions than you are.

    “The expert here said that burns would HAVE to be present by the way”.

    You either don’t know how to read, have poor reading comprehension, or don’t have a problem lying. Ayoob did not say that Martin would have burns as a result of interfering with the slide mechanism. Ayoob said that he would have cuts OR gunpowder residue COULD be used to indicate that this was the case. –Even a lack of gunpowder residue does not urle out the possibility of Martin interfering with the slide mechanism.

    Zimmerman stated that Martin came up on him from behind. He did not state that Martin punched him in the face from behind.

  63. I know that DLarry has NOT seen the autopsy report, nor has his sourced article which is out of date. in FACT the massoud guy got so much wong that he has ZERO creds. He posted the WRONG Martin on his site in an attempt to cover for Zimmerman and smear Martin, so YOUR source is JUNK by his OWN admission and is so biased as to be worthless like you.

    As I pointed out the non-existent report which DL has NOT seen nor massoud, is bunk as to the state of the pistol. As I pointed out before this dumb ass came on, there would HAVE to be gunpowder residue and/or cuts on Martin’s hands. I would defy ANY person to hold a 9mm semi barrel at ANY place on the pistol and NOT get residue on that hand when it is fired. Massoud is also wrong in that if there was a struggle for the gun that it would change the whole case. As for not mentioning powder residue on Martin’s hands, I would think that would be fairly newsworthy and would have been reported.

    The people who HAVE looked at all the current evidence, INCLUDING the autopsy, AND Zimmerman’s statements, charged Zimmerman with second degree MURDER. THAT says quite enough for me so far. Until you can come up with some other EVIDENCE instead of non-“reports” and conjectures, I will defer to those who are supposed to know what they are doing.

  64. Just saw this on twitter for what it is worth:

    AmFascinatedBy ZimmermanApology2 #Trayvon’sParents,Said Didn’tKnow HeWasAKid. If he’dKnownIt &Wld’ve ActedDiffrntly, how is it Self Defense?

  65. Stand “your” ground.

    When does the ground become “yours” instead of “theirs” …

    The Florida mysto courts say “it is on a case by case basis, which in all cases is the good ole boy common law.

    Gimme a “Jim” … gimme a “Crow” …

    Now bend over and smile.

  66. shano,

    That’s what you get from twitter. Zimmerman never said that he would have acted differently had he known Martin was 17.

  67. “if he were attacked from behind as he reportedly told the cops”

    Okay, dumdass, I’ll repeat it for you. Zimmerman did not say that he was attacked from behind. He said that Martin approached him from behind. He didn’t say that Martin hit him from behind.

    You’re like a bald tire stuck in a rut.

  68. Zimmerman said he did not know the person he was stalking was a kid. If he knew he would have acted differently. So, why didn’t he know? Because he ASSUMED Trayvon was an adult criminal and all his actions follow that assumption.

    The angry homeowner is going to prevent those assholes from getting away this time. Zimmerman was wrong on all his assumptions.

  69. Someone above asked about my name. One cannot fleece a flock without a plot of ground to do it upon.

  70. rafflaw:

    “If you had a possible broken nose along with two black eyes and the lacerations on the back of your head, a normal person would likely go to an emergency room. Were the injuries fabrcated? Is the family physician falsely claiming these injuries? I would doubt it, but the jury will decide. Besides, when I am carrying a gun and stalking someone, doesn’t Martin have a right to stand his ground? Are you happy now?”


    I would like to know why a person who took great pains to document his supposed objective posterior head injuries (with a cell phone camera of a passerby at the scene) had such a problem going to the ER to document his supposed objective anterior head and facial injuries. Maybe he wanted to guild the lily before showing up at his GP’s door with a self-induced nose fracture and two blackened eyes quite unapparent from the police video? Who knows? He had to know he was in a world of trouble.

  71. David, concerning your Maasad Ayoob quote:

    It has been reported, were? when? by whom?

    It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.

    Correct me, if I am wrong. This does suggest to me that a second round was prevented from getting from the magazine into the chamber.

    Are you suggesting Zimmerman fired a shot, hit Martin and Martin in turn prevented him from firing another one? Why would the prevention of a second round be important, if it can have happened at all at that point. Maybe I don’t quite understand. Didn’t Zimmerman claim that Martin’s trying to get at the gun caused him to shoot in the first place. Well, the bullet that hit Trayvon was obviously already in the chamber. No? So what is important about the argument, maybe I don’t understand.

    Would you care to elaborate?

  72. From a purely academic standpoint, this thread has convinced me that I really, really need to study voir dire best practices before ever stepping foot into a court room. None of these comments would be viewed by either counsel, and it displays an interesting amount of preconception, regarding both innocence and guilt.

  73. Massad F. Ayoob (born 20 July 1948) is an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor. He has taught police techniques and civilian self-defense to both law enforcement officers and private citizens in numerous venues since 1974. He was the director of the Lethal Force Institute (LFI) in Concord, New Hampshire from 1981 to 2009. He now directs the Massad Ayoob Group (MAG). Ayoob has appeared as an expert witness in several trials. He has served as a part-time police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and holds the rank of Captain in the Grantham, New Hampshire police department.

    Ayoob=recognized expert

    Now let’s look at ARE’s assertion about serious burns.

    So much for ARE knowing what he is talking about.

  74. @mespo,

    “Maybe he wanted to guild the lily before showing up at his GP’s door with a self-induced nose fracture and two blackened eyes quite unapparent from the police video? Who knows? He had to know he was in a world of trouble.”

    And in fact, using CAASI™ technology, we know that George Zimmerman was heard directing someone to hit him, “back and to the left, back and to the left”.

  75. @David Larry, that was informative to me as what you folks are talking about and especially relevant to the Sig Sauer, but not necessarily to anything else…

    But gotta tell ya, around 1:00 in where the guy is holding that other guy’s gun and says he going to jerk it and then grasps the gun firmly with one hand while his other hand is wrapped around the gun holders hand and then he does indeed jerk it and so finally the other guy shoots? That was awesome.

  76. shano,

    That’s what you get from twitter. Zimmerman never said that he would have acted differently had he known Martin was 17.

    George Zimmerman: I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not.

  77. anon:

    We’ll have two FBI audio experts at the trial regarding the voice analysis. Maybe that will allay your concerns.

  78. “If you had a possible broken nose along with two black eyes and the lacerations on the back of your head, a normal person would likely go to an emergency room.”

    No need to try to define “normal” here, but I can assure you as a medic, thousands of people sustain any number of injuries at night, for any number of reasons – and don’t realize how badly they are hurt until the next day. Ask any NFL player.

    And “black-eyes” – like most other tissue injury swelling – take time to develop.

    On traffic incidents, we see people in the heat of the moment running around, only to learn later they had a broken leg.

    The reality is, adrenaline masks pain. That’s what it’s supposed to do.

    No attempt here to defend Zimmerman, but some of the opinions here regarding his injuries sound silly, to those of us who assess trauma professionally.

  79. All I know is that if Dershowitz thought the “special prosecutor” should get a lawyer. He said based on the paperwork that he saw filed about a week or so ago, the prosecution has a loser case and I THINK he considered the prosecution’s actions as political. Something like that. Alan D is not exactly a conservative and for him to say this makes me wonder.

  80. ARE = David Larry,

    that Masood is an internationally recognized expert does not explain my question. Masood speculated in the same article that we all would change our minds once it would be known that Trayvon Martin was on drugs that made him highly aggressive. Do you think such expert evidence will surface?

  81. “We’ll have…”

    That’s interesting Mark! Are you actually part of this case now? (If so, congratulations!)

  82. anon,

    It’s relevant to any semi-automatic handgun that I am familiar with. By preventing the slide from moving (or moving a full stroke) it prevents another round from entering the chamber.


    The reason it is relevant is due to the proximity needed to be able to put his hand on the weapon. Many people are wondering about how far away Martin was from Zimmerman when the shot was fired. Gilbreath (the lead investigator) testified that Martin was close, and powder burns were on his clothing.


    Zimmerman also managed to get the cops to put his injuries in the police report. That way he could fabricate them correctly the next morning.

  83. Geeba Geeba:

    “Alan D is not exactly a conservative and for him to say this makes me wonder.”


    Alan D is a defense lawyer first and liberal second. That is the prism he views the world through.

  84. @David Larry,

    “By preventing the slide from moving (or moving a full stroke) it prevents another round from entering the chamber.”

    I understand that, I was thinking more of the hot gases are not a problem that would cause burns in this demonstration of a Sig Sauer, but potentially are in other weapons…. But I have only ever fired a 357, and that was over 20 years ago, so I don’t know.

  85. leander22,

    Is it really that difficult to quote what Ayoob actually did state in his article?

    If it turns out that the young man who died was fueled by drugs known to cause violent behavior, could that change our perceptions?

    Why would you say “Masood speculated in the same article that we all would change our minds once it would be known that Trayvon Martin was on drugs that made him highly aggressive.”?

    Ayoob said “If it turns out” not “once it would be known”.

    What does the toxicology portion of Martin’s autopsy say about any drugs in his system?

  86. “Zimmerman also managed to get the cops to put his injuries in the police report. That way he could fabricate them correctly the next morning.”

    I believe Malisha has already identified that as part of the conversation on the grassy knoll held between Zimmerman and the cops.

  87. anon:

    We’ll have


    Good split there anon. The good people of Florida and maybe the good people of the United States “will have” them against Zimmerman.

  88. David Larry said:

    “Can a person, taken into custody, but not arrested, refuse medical treatment? Would forcing the person to undergo a medical examination violate the person’s Fifth Amendment rights?”

    I honestly am not privy to the EMS protocols in Florida. And even there, you can bet they vary from county to county.

    But in the greater L.A. area for 25 years, cops & medics would often confer on scene, and make the decision to transport “in custody” in the ambulance, with a cop riding along. The “patient” may or not have been handcuffed temporarily, depending on their behavior. The idea was to get them away from the scene; get the story sorted out in a different environment; get an MDs assessment; maybe a 5150 (psych) 72 hour hold. In my experience, it usually worked out well.

    But it appears that the “in custody, but not under arrest” transport, seems to be falling out of favor.

    I seem to recall a case or two somewhere where the subject of “kidnapping” came up.

    But in a case where somebody takes a human life in a supposed fight, I fail to see why the rule should not be, “We hear what you’re saying, but your injuries are now state’s evidence, and we need them documented.”

  89. Thank you for the clarification, though I think your second sentence is inaccurate. The Government, The State, The Prosecutor that needs to be Re-elected will have FBI Agents there in what would properly be called “The State Versus George Zimmerman”. “WE THE PEOPLE” of Florida and the United States are represented by the jury box, not by the Prosecutor’s desk.

  90. anon, oh you mean that same grassy knoll where Trayvon follows George back to his truck and attacks him from behind…

  91. @Patrick

    “But in a case where somebody takes a human life in a supposed fight, I fail to see why the rule should not be, “We hear what you’re saying, but your injuries are now state’s evidence, and we need them documented.””

    It would certainly seem to me to be relevant and reasonable to have external injuries documented.

    I can certainly see 5th Amendment issues if x-rays, or other invasive procedures were performed and then used against the person. Same with spur of the moment psych analysis.

    But I do wonder what lawyers have either seen or heard or talked about with this and the 4th and 5th amendment issues.

    Then again, we know blood tests for drunk drivers are okay (but maybe only as a signed away right for the privilege of having a driver’s license?)

  92. anon,

    The burns from a single shot would only occur if you had your hand over the ejection port. Holding the front section of the barrel and slider when a single shot is fired will not cause burns. It is an extremely effective way to prevent a second shot from being fired. Even if you don’t get a tight enough grip, the casing might still eject but the next bullet may fail to chamber.

    Or you could end up with what is known as a “Stove Pipe”. The empty casing doesn’t fully clear the weapon and it prevents the next round from properly entering the chamber.

  93. @Shano,

    “anon, oh you mean that same grassy knoll where Trayvon follows George back to his truck and attacks him from behind…”

    It very well could be.

    It is good to be reminded that so much of this is grassy knoll talk.

  94. anon, or the same grassy knoll where Trayvons blood is tested for drugs but George Zimmerman gets NO blood or alcohol tests whatsoever because he said he was standing his ground.

    Wonder what would happen if anyone could try that during a DUI stop? “Just standing my ground, officer. No need for a drug or alcohol test! “

  95. @David Larry,

    Thanks for the video. I will take your advice and file it away, but I know I will be too busy staining my underwear to put it to good use when the situation arises.

    Regardless though, I feel compelled to rebutt with this:

  96. Mespo727272,

    I have had a broken nose. It happened mid-afternoon. The black eyes did not show up until the next morning.

    I would not expect the police report to document a broken nose. Depending on the type of break, it might not be possible to determine without an x-ray.

    Not that it’s particularly significant, but where is the statement from the lead investigator saying that he didn’t believe Zimmerman? Could he have stated that to witnesses in order to encourage them to tell a story that didn’t go along with Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense? In other words, is the lead investigator on record saying that he didn’t believe Zimmerman, and does he identify which parts of Zimmerman’s story he doesn’t believe?

  97. Trayvon Martin case: Lead investigator wanted to arrest George Zimmerman for shooting, ABC News says

    SANFORD, Fla. – A lead investigator into the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin wanted to charge neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman with manslaughter, according to a report from ABC News.

    The news agency said they confirmed the information from ‘multiple sources.’

    The state attorney’s office, headed by Norman Wolfinger, told the investigator, Chris Serino, there was not enough evidence to press charges.

    Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, saying he did not believe Zimmerman’s version of events.

  98. ABC, who were also first to break the bloodied images of Zimmerman’s head that disputed video seemingly showing him unharmed, have now obtained Zimmerman’s detailed medical records.

    The document describes Zimmerman as having suffered two black eyes, wounds to the back of the head, as well as a broken nose but that he declined both hospitalization after the encounter as well as a follow up with an ENT doctor. The doctor who wrote the document also writes that Zimmerman suffers from stress and “nausea” when thinking about the night and was strongly advised to see a psychologist.

    It also states that, prior to the shooting, Zimmerman had been prescribed the drugs Adderall and Temazepam, medication that ABC points out “can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings, but in fewer than 10 percent of patients.”

    Of course, none of this proves exactly what the events were that led to Martin’s death. But they are important facts to add to this sad, sad story.

  99. According to NBC news, Zimmerman’s doctor did NOT say he HAD a broken nose, but a possible broken nose. You would need X-rays to make a definitive call. So even that so called injury is at question, and I would NOT believe his nose was broken unless there were X-rays PROVING it.

  100. Trayvon Martin and the Limits of Belief
    By Charles P. Pierce
    May 16, 2012

    If only the police in Sanford, Florida, had acted remotely like investigators, and not chauffeurs with badges, we wouldn’t currently be going through the ungodly mess that is the pre-trial process in the case of Trayvon Martin, who was shot and killed by George Zimmerman for the crime of possessing snack food in a neighborhood where Zimmerman thought Martin didn’t belong. Now we seem to have dueling medical reports. One of them, from Zimmerman’s family doctor, indicates that Zimmerman’s face apparently went through a wood-chipper. At the same time, remarkably, some Zimmerman-friendly details of Martin’s autopsy also have leaked. How you believe Martin happened to skin his knuckles — and remember, the indisputable fact is that he was being pursued by an armed yahoo who, his own doctors say now, was on mood-altering prescription drugs — is, I suspect, going to become something of a litmus test in this whole business.

    The big problem here still hast to do with the way Zimmerman was treated the night of the shooting. He was the primary evidence the cops had as to what happened. They did no testing. They did not look to see, for example, if any of Martin’s skin, blood, or DNA was left behind on Zimmerman during their alleged scuffle. He wasn’t even tested for drugs and alcohol. (The dead kid was.) If anything, the police seemed determined to create their own narrative….

    Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help. The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, that it was Zimmerman who cried for help, the witness told ABC News.

    And now, after the botched investigation touched off a national uproar, the lawyers for both sides are caught up in trying in their own ways to investigate the events in question and doing so with their own agendas paramount in their minds. There will be no telling at the end what the truth of the case actually is. It will always be a matter of what you believe happened.

    Meanwhile, the FBI and the prosecutors appear to be getting a little nervous. That leak about the “possibility” of charging Zimmerman with a federal hate crime — which would carry the death penalty — looks like nothing more than a clumsy attempt to scare Zimmerman into taking a deal on the state charges. To me, anyway, unless there is a massive amount of evidence of which we are not aware, it seems beyond possibility that a federal hate-crime charge could possibly succeed, given the terrible hash that a bad investigation and a lunatic state law have made of this case. I’ve said it before: Nothing good will come of this case. Nothing at all.

  101. If it turns out that the young man who died was fueled by drugs known to cause violent behavior, could that change our perceptions?

    Ayoob said “If it turns out” not “once it would be known”.

    If it wasn’t inspired by Zimmerman’s statement: “he looks like his is on drugs or something”, why did he care to mention it in this context? If he didn’t know this was part of the discussion triggered by Zimmerman’s “perception”, do you think he would have added it to his article? He puts it in the larger context of all the things we do not know yet, and that are indeed things that could turn out right from his perspective.

    What violence causing drugs do you think he has in mind? Or what drugs are you thinking of if you read his statement? What drugs would have caused violent behavior. I am curious.

  102. his own doctors say now, was on mood-altering prescription drugs

    this would be interesting, but were exactly do they get this from?

  103. So Pharma is going to finance a plea deal in order to head off getting sued by people who use their drugs and commit murder or other harmful deeds.
    Who makes Adderall and Temazepam?

  104. @Shano, leander22

    I had a comment that started off with a warning to all sides that by bringing up Adderall they were meddling with the primal forces of nature. (Big Pharma),

    Regardless, I think that Pierce’s presentation of Adderall and Temazepam as simply “mood altering drugs” is highly disingenuous — and I like Charlie Pierce.

  105. ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting

    Also today, a trove of documents are being examined by lawyers for both the defense and prosecution as part of discovery in Zimmerman’s trial — including 67 CDs worth of documents, video of Martin on the night of the shooting, his autopsy report and videos of Zimmerman’s questioning by police.

    Zimmerman’s three-page medical report is included in those documents that the defense could use as evidence.

    The morning after the shooting, on Feb. 27, Zimmerman sought treatment at the offices of a general physician at a family practice near Sanford, Fla. The doctor notes Zimmerman sought an appointment to get legal clearance to return to work.

    The record shows that Zimmerman also suffered bruising in the upper lip and cheek and lower back pain. The two lacerations on the back of his head, one of them nearly an inch long, the other about a quarter-inch long, were first revealed in photos obtained exclusively by ABC News last month.

    But the report also shows Zimmerman declined hospitalization the night of the shooting, and then declined the advice of his doctor to make a follow-up appointment with an ear nose and throat doctor.

    In addition to his physical injuries, Zimmerman complained of stress and “occasional nausea when thinking about the violence.” But he was not diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor noted that it was “imperative” that Zimmerman “be seen with [sic] his psychologist for evaluation.”

    According to the report, prior to the shooting Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall and Temazepam, medications that can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings, but in fewer than 10 percent of patients.

  106. Patrickparamedic, thanks for the info. It makes good sense. Two things I would like to add:

    1. The police on the scene were allegedly taking someone in for questioning after he admitted fatally shooting someone. We heard from a 911 caller that even people who simply HEARD the scene were very upset and very volatile, and needed care, and were advised to get care if they became agitated. Here the cops have the SHOOTER. Who is to say that if they do not send him to the hospital for at least a check-up after whatever took place, they will not be guilty of a wrongful death or charged with police brutality. My point: If he was bleeding, injured, speaking about calling for help and not getting any, he needed to be seen by a physician licensed by the law of Florida to administer medical care and to make a decision about whether or not Zimmerman could be questioned at all. No one can convince me there is no SOP or protocol for the police in that county to deal with that situation. Not possible.

    2. There was a case in Virginia I think in the 1980s I refer to as the “chest wall habeas case.” I have forgotten the name of the defendant. I think the lawyer was someone named Winston, from somewhere in SW Virginia. I spoke w/him once on the phone; brilliant guy. (See Anon, I didn’t hate him!) Anyway, he was court-assigned to defend a guy who was charged with armed robbery of a liquor store, I believe. The guy had allegedly gone into the store and tried to hold up the place, but the liquor store owner had a gun and shot the robber in the chest, and the guy was not injured very badly (maybe low caliber bullet, maybe just luck or something) and he fled. There was little or no physical evidence that the suspect arrested was actually the man in the liquor store, other than the bullet which was still lodged in his chest. If it matched the other bullets from that gun, then he would be looking at big time in the big house. The prosecutor wanted the judge to grant an order assigning the hospital to operate on the man and remove the bullet. The doctor (who had taken the oath to “first, do no harm”) thought that he was not allowed to operate (and the anesthesiologist thought he was not allowed to administer anesthesia) unless he had consent from the patient. The judge had to decide whether to order the surgery or not, when it had nothing to do with improving the man’s health, but was basically a “search and seizure” operation for evidence. The defendant’s assigned counsel brought an emergency habeas corpus proceeding, alleging that although his client was already IN JAIL, taking him into surgery would be a higher degree of restraint (complete with unconsciousness administered by medical personnel) than a jail, and that therefore, he would be unconstitutional to operate on the man until he was proven guilty of some crime, which was in fact quite logical.

    Anyway, it seems to me that the principle of the thing with the police who arrest a suspect is that they have probable cause (especially after the guy admits having killed somebody!) to investigate his clothing and his person. They surely have probable cause to do blood tests if he is bleeding and if there is blood on the person he just killed. And there is reason to get him into an ER right away as well to both document his injuries (to protect the police department from having to pay the citizens’ tax money to somebody for having committed police brutality at least) and to treat him if need be.

    The problem was that they pretty much let Zimmerman call the shots. He was not technically arrested. Nobody apparently investigated the calls on his cell phone made in the minutes between his conversation with the police dispatcher and their arrival on the scene (and perhaps even after that). He was allowed to choose whether to visit the hospital or not although he sported injuries and had a private party take souvenir pictures right under the cops’ noses. The thing was not handled properly from the get go and possibly even before the get gone.

    All this could have blown over if only people hadn’t made a fuss about that one dead kid.

  107. Once we have all finished speculating, the real significance of these reports is merely an increased likelihood that the case will actually go to trial.

  108. Mike Appleton, I respectfully disagree. I think the fact that we’re getting little bits of evidence to temper this or that view of the situation is all theater, and that the real point of it is to absorb the public energy so that a plea deal will be the way out. After the plea deal, I have expect that the federal investigation will take so long that people will forget about the people who REALLY brought this mess into the foreground of our national malaise: the police and prosecutors in Seminole County, FL. They will get off because once all the mental energy of the public is used up arguing about rivulets of blood, skinned knuckles, skittles and assholes, people will go along their way trying to make what they can of their irritated private lives and the feds can close the book and get on to their other work defending the government from lawsuits when they accidentally arrest the wrong John Doe and/or unearthing “evidence” against people they’ve held in Guantanamo for a decade. Oh yeah, and mowing the lawn on the grassy knoll.

  109. typo, sorry. I “half expect,” not I have expect.

    I seem to type phonetically while listening to my subvocalized monologue. HA HA! But there is good background music: James Brown “please, please, please.”

  110. Thanks, Swarthmore mom. In the long run, good news for all of us, perhaps.

    OT, but since the issue was raised:

    36 Hours Left! Tell Congress to Pass the Smith-Amash Amendment to the NDAA

    By Chris Anders, Washington Legislative Office at 11:26am

    Thirty-six hours might not seem like much time. But we are hoping it will be just enough time for all Americans to convince our members of Congress that no president should have the authority to order the military to detain civilians without charge or trial in the United States, or put anyone in our country on trial in front of military commissions.

    “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.” –Thomas Jefferson

  111. Malisha:

    I initially believed that the case was overcharged in order to negotiate an eventual manslaughter plea. That may still be the case, but I am not so sure. I know Mark O’Mara and he is a very skilled, rational and unflappable lawyer. I don’t see him accepting something that will involve jail time if he has reasonable prospects for a verdict on a lesser included.

  112. If I were to defend myself against someone, I would reach for the vulnerable areas: testicles, nose and eyes, maybe the back of the head thru the chin. Whether I used a “squeeze”, the heel of my hand, my rigidly held finger tips, or my freshly manicured fingernails would depend on the area I was after. I would not use my fist. But then, I’m a “girl”. and I’d get only one shot at him.

    The black eyes of Zimmerman are probably from the broken nose. I’ve had the embarrassment of black eyes after a toddler banged my nose by a sudden movement. Don’t know if my nose was broken or not but it really, really hurt. And the black eyes didn’t show up for several hours.

  113. The previous post doesn’t advance the topic much, but then, neither do most of the other posts. Or are we creating a record for “I told you so’s”?

  114. OT: (Thanks to Swarthmore mom for posting the first link and I apologize for veering off-topic.)

    Wednesday, May 16, 2012 05:14 PM EDT

    “Federal court enjoins NDAA”

    “An Obama-appointed judge rules its indefinite detention provisions likely violate the 1st and 5th Amendments”

    By Glenn Greenwald


    The ruling was a sweeping victory for the plaintiffs, as it rejected each of the Obama DOJ’s three arguments: (1) because none of the plaintiffs has yet been indefinitely detained, they lack “standing” to challenge the statute; (2) even if they have standing, the lack of imminent enforcement against them renders injunctive relief unnecessary; and (3) the NDAA creates no new detention powers beyond what the 2001 AUMF already provides.

    As for the DOJ’s first argument — lack of standing — the court found that the plaintiffs are already suffering substantial injury from the reasonable fear that they could be indefinitely detained under section 1021 of the NDAA as a result of their constitutionally protected activities. As the court explained (h/t Charles Michael):

    In support of their motion, Plaintiffs assert that § 1021 already has impacted their associational and expressive activities–and would continue to impact them, and that § 1021 is vague to such an extent that it provokes fear that certain of their associational and expressive activities could subject them to indefinite or prolonged military detention.


    The court concluded by taking note of what is indeed the extraordinary nature of her ruling, but explained it this way:

    This Court is acutely aware that preliminarily enjoining an act of Congress must be done with great caution. However, it is the responsibility of our judicial system to protect the public from acts of Congress which infringe upon constitutional rights.

    I’ve been very hard on the federal judiciary in the past year due to its shameful, craven deference in the post-9/11 world to executive power and, especially, attempts to prosecute Muslims on Terrorism charges. But this is definitely an exception to that trend. This is an extraordinary and encouraging decision. All the usual caveats apply: this is only a preliminary injunction (though the court made it clear that she believes plaintiffs will ultimately prevail). It will certainly be appealed and can be reversed. There are still other authorities (including the AUMF) which the DOJ can use to assert the power of indefinite detention. Nonetheless, this is a rare and significant limit placed on the U.S. Government’s ability to seize ever-greater powers of detention-without-charges, and it is grounded in exactly the right constitutional principles: ones that federal courts and the Executive Branch have been willfully ignoring for the past decade. (end of excerpts)

  115. Here’s the decision:





    BARACK OBAMA, individually and as representative of the UNITED STATES AMERICA; LEON PANETTA, individually and in his capacity as the executive and representative of the DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, JOHN MCCAIN, JOHN BOEHNE HARRY REID, NANCY PELOSI, MITCH


  116. The job of a defense lawyer is extremely important, no matter what the issues are, no matter what the moralities of the situation are, no matter who the victims are. I respect that. I think that is essential in view of the fact that we have an adversarial, and not an investigative, legal system.

    So it is good that O’Mara is very smart and I recognized that in him immediately, when he replaced the two bozos.

    But look at his situation now, UNLESS the prosecution has already cut a deal and everything is known except to the silly public who are still buying tickets to the “justice theater of the absurd.”

    1. If O’Mara puts his own witness on the stand to testify that it was self-defense, he risks a lot. I am betting that the voice analysis of the tapes will cut a deep groove (and NOT a vinyl groove) in the story that he was yelling “help help” before killing Martin. Furthermore, the initial story that Martin jumped him from behind has been abandoned, but it was recorded and attributed to Zimmerman before being abandoned.

    2. If O’Mara does not put his witness on the stand to testify that it was self-defense, who does he have to say that it was? Not one of the 911 callers claimed to have seen an initial action; they called after they heard screams and other noises such as either one or two gunshots. A defense case cannot be built on guesswork; you need either physical evidence or testimony. Skinned knuckles on the body of Martin only prove that he was fighting, not that he was the aggressor; even if he had punched first, it is only Zimmerman’s now-damaged word that he did, and most people would presume that Martin throwing the first punch was (a) unlikely and (b) even if true, certainly justified by the implied circumstances.

    3. Third party witnesses (other than Martin and Zimmerman) cannot easily come forward now that the police report has not named them. Even Frank Taafe would have a problem NOW stepping up and saying that he saw what happened. It would be the unheard word of the dead youth against the not-very-credible word of the defendant himself.

    O’Mara has his job cut out for him. There’s more to the autopsy report than has met the eye so far.

  117. top shot
    no one can tell you how things happened that night.if noone released that autopsy report how do you know anything? first, zimmerman faked the phone call to police, then he stalks m. and shoots him for no reason, then ABC pics of his injuries aren’t real, or maybe the dr.that he did see is lying for geoge. to what, get caught in a federal case and loose his license, yeah right. doc can’t write a report if injuries aren’t there. sayong he made that up is just plain stupid. he was questioned for what 5.5 hrs. being that hwe a magistrates son why didn’t he ask for a lawyer. eye witness, zimm was hollering at him for help. where is all this info coming from if no evidence has been made public? dispatcher asked z. what color m. was, he said i don’t know. no race case there. this is the first time i read that he had his hand over z nose and mouth.maybe that’s why the dr wanted him to see e,n, t specialist AND THAT MAKES ME THINK THE INJURIES WERE AN ISSUE. . i’ve seen words like stalked, hunted down, if that’s true then how did m. get away from z. ? half the country is on medicine of some kind and it means nothing. now i want to know where this info came from so i can read it myself. I once heard a lawyer say in closing arguments that this case not only was riddled with reasonable doubt, ‘reasonable doubt lives here’ and to get on here and say anything with absolute certainty just shows how stupid everyone is… come on, lots of things could have happened that nite. i read that he, m had his hand over z mouth and nose. was he smothering or strangling him to death. m. should have just got the hell off of him, that makes him just as guilty as z. what the hell was he doing, trying to kill him?somebody puts there hands over my mouth an nose and i can’t breathe. something’s going to happen.. zimm has been portrayed as a monster. well, look up some info on martin. at the age he is now, not when he was 12. and whoever said that m. actions aren’t relevant to this case is just plain out dumb. his coming back, in my opinion, towards z, then jumping him makes much more sense then murder. why is t. mom get a tv com. when there is hundreds of thousands other people/kids died a violent death that week? other mothers weren’t given money to bury there son,daughter. she turned my stomach for filing a patton on her son. intelligence show it’s self in these blogs. 67 cd’s is an unimaginable amount of evidence. corey to me is overzealous. look what she done to that poor woman with the abusive husband..she should have had more sense then to even charge her. where is jackson, sharpton, and even martin at now? all you could see for days was those three. there is nothing being done because it is not a high profile case.
    that and no whites were involved.

  118. @ Top Shot:

    “i’ve seen words like stalked, hunted down, if that’s true then how did m. get away from z. ?”

    Top Shot, he didn’t!

    In fact, Martin did not get away from Zimmerman; he got killed by Zimmerman.

  119. Malisha, I agree with Mike Appleton, but I would add Zimmerman to O’Mara. I think the big conflict with his earlier lawyers was actually exactly this: he will accept nothing but an acquittal and O’Mara is his lawyer.


    Florida administration in 2012, I have two possibilities to get the old George Zimmerman court files. One is to phone them and give them my credit card details, honestly, the other way is to send them the money by mail. Florida in 2012? Mail the money or give me your credit card details? If I had anything to pay to them, I could do so online, but there is no way to handle the fees for the court files the same way? I find this hard to believe but that’s what a series of mails and one failed phone call ending on a voice mail box taught me.

    Would any American interpret this as meaning, call me and give me your credit card details? I honestly would like to know.

    I can provide you all the paperwork we have on George Zimmerman’s Orange County cases, which includes the contract you are referencing. The cost is $1 a page and it is 25 pages, so therefore the cost is $25. If you’d like to pay by phone, I can then email you the documents. Please let me know and I can set you up with someone in our Records division.

    Do people in the US pass on their credit card details on the phone so easily? It surely is against the rules I signed.

    Technically it would be possible to “pay by phone” in Germany via your phone bill. My provider tells me it’s easy to do even with the States, not so in the US in the office of Clerk of Courts Lydia Gardner:

    Previously she was teacher, a member and chairman of the School Board of Orange County, a real estate broker, and an executive with a Fortune 100 telecommunications company.

    It’s either phone me and give me your details or send the money by mail. Not even a bank transfer was offered. Really, really strange.

  120. Defendant Z has to take the stand. No one else is a live witness to anything seen as opposed to being heard. He looks to me like he can tell a credible story. Self defense or the gun went off in the struggle. Defendant Z is the one looking the jury in the respective eyes and the eyes have it.

  121. NBC News and
    Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.
    The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

  122. Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News

    That is the nail in Zimmerman’s coffin. So Z was either standing or on the ground when he shot Martin and the kid was a good distance away from him. There was NO fight going on when he was shot, and Zimmerman had pulled his gun, took aim and killed Martin as Martin was shouting for HELP!

    Now I understand why the prosecutor filed murder charges on Zimmerman and why the DoJ may fle a hate crime charge and make him eligible for the death penalty. Now I understand why the cops did NOT buy Zimmerman’s story at the time. The prosecutor did not overcharge nor file those charges because she wanted a plea deal.

  123. Arthur, for what it’s worth, and I have no knowledge of firearms,

    Tom Maguire writes:

    Zimmerman Case – Keeping Hate Alive At The Times

    “Intermediate range” is described here (gunshot pictures not for the squeamish); the omniscient ‘cboldt’ advises us it is roughly a few inches to a few feet, presumably depending in part on whether clothing had an effect. Various references and graphic pics here, thanks to ‘paulo’.

    Intermediate Range Definition: Hot powder grains accompany bullet to wound site & are driven into skin, leaving small red marks on skin – stippling/tattooing

    Short & Close Range Definition: Bullet hole, stippling & soot present

    Contact Range Definition: Bullet hole, muzzle burn mark & impression of firearm present; loose fit – near contact; cornea of soot may be present where weapon not placed directly against skin

    (two links removed to prevent this comment from being spaminated.)

  124. anon, I checked the links and sources and NONE of them proved what the blog said. Not only that but I watched the bond hearing which was referenced in the blog, and I saw NONE of what they said was there. It is also very unusual in a bond hearing to go into detail about the evidence too. So not only was the blog wrong, it is unusual for what they said to have transpired to even happen at such a hearing.

    As for the intermediate distance, taking your definition, of a few inches to a few FEET, is one hell of a margin. The only way to settle that is to see the photos. As for Martin being able to keep the slide from moving, there was NO documented report at all of that. Indeed the only way to confirm Martin had the gun near his hand is to do a nitrate test on his hands. As I have said earlier, it is extremely unlikely that a person would stay around when a gun was pulled on them, much less fight for it. You also seem to think that Zimmerman was simply lying on his back letting Martin beat the hell out of him without raising a hand in his own defense. Even a granny would do that much, but I guess Zimmerman was playing dead while Martin was beating on him?

    As we all know, the truth and evidence will eventually be bought forth, and most of these questions can be proved in court.

  125. @Arthur,

    I wasn’t trying to dispute anything you had said, I was just trying to shed a little light on what “intermediate distance” seems to mean. In my mind, taken from that set of flashcards, and not knowing what the authority of the flash cards is, “intermediate distance” means: too far for soot to have collected on the wound, close enough for individual grains to strike the wound.”

    But beats me, I think fights that are either not bare handed or with a Bat’leth are dishonorable.

  126. Intermediate range means the “middle ground”, therefore there is close, middle, and long range.

    In this context, I would say “long range” is the outer limit of the accuracy range of that weapon (~50 feet), intermediate range is ~25 feet, and close range is ~7 feet or less.

  127. Leander, I will go ahead and get those records.

    You can check back on the blog tomorrow to see if I have succeeded, OK?


  128. That’s BS because any evidence that was to be collected should have been done at the hospital, by the ambulance driver etc, because those could have been done by someone else AFTER Travone was dead. We all saw the video of Zimmerman being brought in that showed No Broken Nose, No puffed up; bruised or even slightly shut Eyes, No Blood, No problem walking etc…The Family physcians report should be Thrown Out or Not even allowed in the 1st place.

    Besides that; What Police Department knowing their was a fight, and a death takes the word of the Adult Shooter over that of a Dead Teenage found with Ice tea and skittles?

    I’m still waiting to see What the DOJ has to say; regarding the Inequality of Treatment and Use of the Stand Your Ground Laws. They let Zimmerman go home on his own, but a Woman who shoots off a gun, to protect herself and warn her Abuser gets 20 years! Dis Is Sum Bulll S

  129. Regardless, I think that Pierce’s presentation of Adderall and Temazepam

    thanks for the hint, anon, I found these two drugs meanwhile. On the surface they feel as if they covered contradictory fields of indication. But maybe–I am associatively speculating–they are related to the fact that he still needed work on specific credits for his exam in associative criminal law. Not sure if I really understood the larger topic by now. My impressions are contradictory: he finished it, but needed to do something still. I may not understand US procedures. Another question mark in my head.

  130. Leander, I will go ahead and get those records.

    I was really frustrated yesterday, when I finally thought, I had understood but still didn’t quite get it. At least that’s what it felt like.

    If you have a paypal account, I could pay you the fees, but strictly I think you will run into the same troubles. Either mail or give me your credit card details.

    As a rule in Germany, which of course you can ignore, you are not allowed to mail money. So none of the ways works for me.

    A cousin, ages ago once worked for the German mail (Deutsche Bundespost) when it was still was state owned with no other mail system around. He told me to never send money via mail since he discovered that his colleagues had means to fishing out mails that contained money. He told me a trick how to escape their x-ray like techniques, (as I remember it), but that is ages ago. Although, strictly may be the reason that at least DB/DHL do not allow money to be send by mail.

  131. Leander, don’t worry, I’ll try to get it this afternoon and report back.

    About the inequality of the SYG laws, ALL laws are applied with inequality and corruption (which is more rampant in our justice system than either of the other two branches of govt. even!) BUT look at the inequality of the way it is being addressed within the Zimmerman case itself:

    Trayvon Martin did not have the SYG-provided right to PUNCH Zimmerman

    but Zimmerman had the SYG-provided right to KILL Martin?


    How did that happen?

  132. leander, it would not surprise me if the two drugs George was taking are contra indicated. Pharma just wants people to take their drugs for as long as possible, whether or not they help the person taking them.

    BurntOffering, well said, dat is sum bull s in Florida going down every day.

  133. Geeba Geeba, Dershowitz likes to say things to get himself a lot of publicity. I have heard him say things that are just plain stupid, but they played well to one or another of “his groupies’ groups” at the time. He knows very well that prosecutors cannot be sued for prosecuting; they are more immune than judges. Read Gershman’s book, Prosecutorial Misconduct. Even more to the point, he knows that the prosecutor has not yet revealed the evidence she had upon which to base the charges. In the medical reports from Zimmerman’s own doctors, we have gone so far, in a few days in the press, from “broken nose” to “closed fracture” to “probable broken nose,” and we don’t have Zimmerman’s x-rays from any time period. Furthermore, the police report indicated the presence of blood, not the presence of injuries.

    More to the point, Zimmerman’s injuries do not prove anything because Martin is not on trial.

  134. Hi Malisha – Regarding your self-proclaimed “stubborn facts”. Not stubborn at all, here I will tear them to shreds

    First the latest: Trayvon Martin was high on drugs when this occured….autopsy report just released:

    Your asserted facts:

    Zimmerman, with no authority and no clear motive, and while knowing that he was carrying a lethal weapon, actively sought out and produced a confrontation with an unknown, unarmed youth, and after seeking out and producing that confrontation, SAYS that he was getting the worse end of the confrontation so he killed his targeted prey.

    Regarding Zimmerman’s ‘authority’, He was recognized and appointed as the Neighborhood Watch captain by his own community and by the community Management which referred victims of burglar/robbery to him and his wife for assistance and counseling.
    …ehh not so stubborn

    Regarding his motive…his motive was to keep his community safe from the criminals responsible for the string of recent burglaries and robberies which happened to be all commited by “young black males”
    …ehh not so stubborn

    Regarding “actively sought out and produces a confrontation” is simply not a fact. The 911 recording does not support this as fact. If you have something that proves this is fact then cite it.
    …ehh not so stubborn in the least

    Regarding Martin being ‘unknown’, well not really then and not really now. He was on suspension for drugs, was high on drugs on the night in question, and fit the description of the perpetrators of a recent string of felonies in that community. Just fitting the description of recent perpeators of felonies in the same place move him out of the ‘unknown’ category
    …ehh not so stubborn

    Regarding “getting the worse end of the confrontation”…thats just speculating on top of the previous confrontation speculation. But the evidence being released now shows ZIMMERMAN didn’t even try to fight Martin. The only mark on Martin was the broken skin on his knuckles from his drug fueled violence against Zimmerman and Zimmermans last resort shot to the chest to save his own life shown to be at close range

    Any jury that isn’t coming in with a chip on their shoulder is going to hear the real actual facts minus the racebaiting assumptions and in context of the recent string of felonies perpetrated by “young black males” in that community and they are going to give Zimmerman an acquittal and maybe even a vicarious apology on behalf of that pathetic excuse for a special prosecutor Angela Corey. Just read her affidavit, its so full of holes a truck could be driven through it. She should be fired just for having the gall to submit that sorry excuse for probable cause

  135. Manny O is back!

    Manny, you think you have attacked my “stubborn facts,” right? Here they are:

    “Zimmerman, with no authority and no clear motive,”

    You say he had authority? Your suggestion of his “authority” is the Community Watch folks? They’re not even registered as a community watch, and they do not authorize armed patrols. NO AUTHORITY. That’s a fact.

    As to “clear motive”? He SAID “These assholes always get away.” It is not clear what he means by that. He may mean “these young blacks” or “these would-be burglars” or “these people I do not like” or “etc.” but it is not CLEAR. THat’s a fact.

    “and while knowing that he was carrying a lethal weapon,”

    You think there is a way to show that he did not know he was carrying a lethal weapon? I don’t think his defense counsel is trying that one.

    “actively sought out and produced a confrontation”

    Yeah, he got out of his car, followed and found Trayvon Martin. The confrontation followed these two ACTIVE ACTS. Fact.

    “with an unknown, unarmed youth,”

    Both admitted by the police and by Zimmerman.

    “and after seeking out and producing that confrontation, SAYS that he was getting the worse end of the confrontation”

    Zimmerman was the source of this fact. He said he was being pummeled and pounded, on the ground. FACT

    “so he killed his targeted prey.”

    That’s a Q.E.D. by this point. Just as stubborn as it ever was before you objected to it, only now a little more stubbornly set forth.

    And welcome back.

  136. For my part, I have zero opinion on how wrong Zimmerman might have been. We don’t know the facts yet, and maybe never will.

    I do happen to be fairly active in my own HOA, and I can say that ‘neighborhood watch’ and board member types, often become well-acquainted with the local cops. To the police, these are generally the trust-worthy ones, until proven otherwise.

    So until I hear otherwise, I tend to think the cops in the Zimmerman case, on the night in question, likely took much of what Zimmerman said, at face value.

    I’m not saying it was the “right” thing to do on the scene of a Homicide. But I’m guessing at the time, they simply didn’t see what they thought they would need to see, in order to arrest him.

    It is also a good idea to keep in mind, that a quick arrest is not always a bright move.

    Now lets all hope this case is extremely well handled in the courts.

    Not that I’m holding my breath.

  137. Manny O., just because there was THC in his drug test does not mean Trayvon was “high”. THC stores in your fat cells and anyone can test positive for 3 months after ingesting marijuana just once.

    Zimmerman had no drug test but was on 2 prescription drugs. Was he on those drugs that night and experiencing ‘side effects’?
    We will never know because no drug testing was done a man who, no doubt about it, shot and killed someone.

  138. And while I know marijuana has harmed some kids, I have to defend occasional users in high school because I was one myself.

    It is definitely safer than going out with the binge alcohol drinkers in high school, thats for sure….

  139. David Larry
    Z.’s attorney questioned the lead detective at the bond hearing. When he asked the detective if they had any evidence that Z followed M. his answer was no,’ not even to this day? questioned O’mara, .reply ‘ no, not even to this day, I believe those words are almost verbatim. Omara, ” Have you seen the physicians report on the defendants injuries?’, to which the detective replied,’ i have no knowledge of, nor have I seen pics of Z. injuries. ” I am not aware of any requests from the prosecution to obtain copies of said reports.”.
    How do you come to a reasonable and ethical decision as to what degree of murder or even manslaughter to charge a person with, if you don;t consider all the evidence, especially in a SYG case, And you don’t even look at what to be his defense? I actually discovered something today that changes my opinions, which is the only thing anyone can have at this point, completely about this case. I hope Z. gets a fair and impartial jury that will only look at the evidence and base there verdict accordingly. As far as any media outlet, be it major networks, newspapers etc.. it’s already been proven that they flat out lied. I very rarely depend on the verdicts they so easily reach themselves.
    A quote I read from someone today,
    “f#@k all the haters, I will kill them all.”
    A quote from the next generation. for our kids and grand kids to learn from. Not to mention what ALL teens, 20 somethings…..etc.. is being taught by this whole case..


    Encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin ‘avoidable,’ cops said in report
    Trayvon was shot through the heart, according to autopsy report, and had THC in his blood.

    JACKSONVILLE – Newly released evidence in the case against George Zimmerman shows that Sanford Police believed the encounter between Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was “ultimately avoidable,” if Zimmerman had “remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement,” according to hundreds of pages of evidence in the case released this afternoon.

    The evidence — released by Special Prosecutor Angela Corey’s office late Thursday — includes a photocopy of a picture taken of George Zimmerman at the scene of the shooting. In it, he has a bloody nose.

    Sanford Officer Michael Wagner pulled out his personal iPhone, he wrote in his report, and shot a photo of Zimmerman’s bloody nose. It appeared to him, Mead wrote in his report, that Zimmerman’s nose was broken.

    “I also saw that the back of Zimmerman’s head was also bloodied,” Wagner wrote.

    Wagner downloaded the photo to his computer but never forwarded it to anyone else, he wrote, not until March 18, when he got word that the agency could find no photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene.

    Trayvon’s autopsy report is included in the released documents. In it, there is a diagram that shows the gunshot wound was approximately 3/8 inches across, and the “stippling,” powder burns that come as a result of a gunshot, was approximately 2 inches in diameter.

    The bullet went through his heart, according to the report. The Volusia County medical examiner’s office pulled from Trayvon’s body one lead bullet core and two fragments, according to a Florida Department of Law Enforcement lab report. The report also showed a scratch on one hand and am “abrasion” on the other hand.

    The autopsy report says there was THC — the active chemical found in marijuana — in Trayvon’s blood and urine.

    In a recorded interview with FDLE investigators, Zimmerman’s father, Robert Zimmerman, disputed the assertions of Trayvon Martin’s family that it was the teen heard screaming in a 911 call before the shooting.

    “That is absolutely, positively George Zimmerman,” the elder Zimmerman said. “Myself, my wife, family members and friends know that that is George Zimmerman, there is no doubt, who’s yelling for help.”

    Robert Zimmerman said he was surprised by the high quality of the 911 audio in which the screams were heard. He said he was certain they were those of his son.

    “He sounded like he was screaming for his life,” he said.

    According to documents, FDLE crime lab analyst Anthony Gorgone found more than a dozen spots of blood on Zimmerman’s shirt. That blood was Zimmerman’s, he concluded.

    Sanford Police investigator Christopher Serino said statements made on scene to officer T. Smith “were corroborated by several witnesses and led to the possibility of this shooting having been in self-defense.”

    From the report:

    One resident told the investigator that he heard a commotion and when he investigated, “he witnessed a black male, wearing a dark colored “hoodie” on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help. He elaborated by stating that black male was mounted on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches “MMA (mixed martial arts) style.” He stated he yelled out to the two individuals that he was going to call the police. He then heard a “pop.” He stated that after hearing the “pop,” he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the black male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.

    In a recording from a March interview with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Sanford Fire Rescue’s Mike Brandy said when he arrived at the scene of the shooting, he “saw [Trayvon] laying on the ground… police were there, they were already doing CPR.”

    “We put him on the heart monitor and the heart monitor showed no activity,” Brandy said. “He was basically flatlined.”

  141. Manny, The report doesn’t say Martin was high on drugs. It said he had THC in his system, no quantity specified. Even so, it’s my understanding that THC tends to have a calming effect and not known to excite someone to violence.

  142. It’s unfortunate that more and more witnesses chose to collaborate in the conspiracy formed that night between Zimmerman and the Sanford Police.

  143. “More and more witnesses” wanted to give their information to the police between 2/26/2012 and the time the story hit the press big-time in March. Those witnesses were “guided,” ignored, coerced, and rebuffed. Then when the story hit, the police looked very bad indeed, and Lee had to step aside to let things happen that he couldn’t comment on any more, having drawn too much fire with his commentary. From that time forward, two main directions have led to “witnesses” — many of them coming “forward” to the press rather than to the prosecutor’s folks: Among those who wanted to speak with the press and not necessarily be identified were several “witnesses” who saw Trayvon Martin allegedly winning a fist fight with George Zimmerman and “witnesses” who just had something to say. Then, strangely, cops came up with stuff that they had not put on the record at the time they were allegedly investigating the possible crime.

    Now, you have people arguing that because Trayvon Martin may have gotten the upper hand in the fight between him and a threatening stranger, he was killed in self-defense. Not one piece of witness evidence has been brought forward to any news media by any anonymous “witness” saying that Martin followed Zimmerman back to his car and jumped him. Not one.

    So what seems to be happening is that “witnesses” are very willing to say they saw injury to Zimmerman, and they saw Martin winning a fight. None of them is willing to say they saw Martin either start a fight or follow Zimmerman. The evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin is very clear. He told the police that the “asshole” had “run” and was no longer in sight, and then time passed, and then he shot Martin. Shortly after saying that Martin had “run” Zimmerman admitted to the dispatcher that he was following him. That’s proven by Zimmerman’s own admission.

    As to whether people are jumping to conclusions: Some on this thread are always complaining that the rest of us are jumping to the conclusion that Zimmerman is a racist murderer. We have not even said so. But those same “some” who have made this complaint have now insisted that Martin was “high” that night. You can no more conclude that Martin was “high” from the blood and urine tests run after his death than you can conclude that Zimmerman was a racist because he killed an unarmed Black kid. It is certainly within the realm of the possible, not a conclusion, and certainly not relevant.

    Zimmerman’s being racist is not relevant to his conduct on 2/26/2012 unless it provided a motive for a crime. Without that motive, you still have the same crime. And Martin being allegedly “high” is not relevant to Zimmerman’s conduct on 2/26/2012 either. If he had waited for the police, the police would not have had probable cause to take Martin in for a blood test, because he was not in possession of any drugs at the time, and the police would not be able to assume that he was “high” by his conduct. Even if they HAD rousted him and made him submit to a blood test, they wouldn’t have had a prima facie case of any crime. So what you have is the same story you had before, with some little insults (against the victim, not the perpetrator, of an unnecessary killing) thrown in.

    Those who think Martin’s blood test justifies Zimmerman killing him should think twice; not even the cops would have had the right to shoot him for having a substance in his blood and urine.

  144. Well, I think you’re clearly jumping to conclusions re: both men, and then go wildly askew with conspiracy theories, but I don’t think Treyvon was high that night based upon THC in his bloodstream.

  145. By the way, “more and more witnesses” always collaborate down the line with ANY government cover-up. ANY COVER-UP. Why? Because down the line, when the thing begins to unravel, the initial cover-up artists need the help of more and more people to back up their obviously faked-up false and essentially foolish stories. If they have something on somebody, that somebody will become a support-team member in the cover-up. Oldest story in the book. And a big damn book it is. You can see this in action in Brooklyn, NY, where Hynes, the prosecutor, has had to get more and more people (including but not limited to lawyers and government officials) involved in the cover-ups that he protects. As the concentric circles widen, the concentric circles of coercion also widen. People get fired, lose their pensions, get prosecuted for petty idiotic infractions, get their cars destroyed, get denied benefits they are entitled to, get black-listed, get every kind of trouble that a prosecutor can make, and this is a relentless process that has no conscience to it and that will go to any length. This is well known among intelligent cautious people. It is the official “knee-breaking” activity of the government cover-up agent.

    So if the police covered up a crime to start with, and then the s**t hit the fan, and it was a big enough fan, SURE they will have people coming in to say everything they did was correct. They’ll get their rewards later, just like a jailhouse snitch who lies to send someone to the death chamber.

    Old old old old old old story. Big big big big book.

  146. “By the way, “more and more witnesses” always collaborate down the line with ANY government cover-up. ”

    Yeah, but I was snarking about a citizen who witnessed the events that evening and reported them that evening.

  147. Of course he wasn’t high. Just the news reports say nonsense like that, as if it matters, when all it does is create some diversions for people to grab onto who can’t keep ahold of the salient facts — the stubborn salient facts.

    O’Mara will keep ahold of the stubborn salient facts. I don’t think he will risk a trial, but if he does, I will watch for Zimmerman’s testimony.

    As to conspiracy theories, those will have to await the feds’ investigative reports. They might try not to deal with the issues at all, who knows?

  148. Anon — he did not give a report that Martin followed Zimmerman back to the truck and jumped him, did he?

  149. Hi Malisha –

    There is just no clear evidence that indisputably has Zimmerman “producing a confrontation” with Martin.

    Lets start with the 911 call…Martin is at one point coming towards Zimmerman, then walks off in another direction. Zimmerman starts to follow to continue to observe him when the dispatcher asks if he is following him and he says he is, and then the dispatcher says it is not needed, AND ZIMMERMAN SAYS “OK”

    At least according to the 911 call that is clearly agreement. Zimmerman is assenting and he stops following Martin. The news loves to cut the recording short before Zimmerman says “ok” but there it is clear as day
    If Dad says to Child, Dont you ever do X again, and then Child says “ok” that means the child agrees and will not do it again.

    In a statement by ZImmerman he said Martin came upon him after he lost sight of Martin and was merely going about his business (not stalking Martin)

    So again, where is your “stubborn fact” that shows indisputably Zimmerman stalked Martin?

    The truth is you don’t know that Martin didn’t come back and actually produce a confrontation with Zimmerman. You just don’t know that, you may not think that nice Martin boy on drugs and suspected of multiple instances of larceny could do such a thing, but thats not the point

    The point is there is NO STUBBORN FACT AT ALL that shows Zimmerman went after Martin ultimatley

    To the contrary, the 911 call shows he didnt as he 100% agreed to not follow Martin.

    So is there anything else you have that indisputably shows Zimmerman followed Martin and produced the confrontation, cause right now you have nothing in that regard

  150. That’s what they call “cavil,” Manny. If Zimmerman’s hope for acquittal is the collective decision of any jury that Zimmerman did not necessarily follow Martin and did not “produce a confrontation” with Martin, I will actually lower my estimation of the competence of his counsel. I will tell you that an argument can go on from now until doomsday and most rational people ironing out all the known facts about Zimmerman’s spoken words that were recorded on 2/26/2012 before and after the death of Trayvon Martin will conclude that Zimmerman followed Martin and brought on a confrontation. Those of the rational people who actually believe that Martin had a right to defend himself against an armed stranger will conclude that Zimmerman committed either murder or a lesser included offense, unless he pleads out insane.

  151. Regarding the calls of “foul” over saying Martin was high on drugs during his unusually violent behavior that night

    There is no test on this planet that can definitively prove someone was technically “high” at some arbitrary point in time.

    What does exist are drug tests that are known to show that drug X was taken by person Y one or more times going back at least Z hours or days.

    They found drugs in BOTH Martins blood and urine. Here is why thats important and why it points to him probably just finished doing drugs…could have been why he wanted to get out of the house so he could fire up the drugs

    The THC only stays in the blood stream for “a few hours” in casual users. Urine it can be like 30 days. If he was a chronic multi-day user of drugs it could stay 12-24 hours in his blood, but still its damning because it means he would a multiple time a day user

    Also…realize he wasn’t immediately blood tested, it had to have happened at least hours later, maybe even days later…and yet STILL there was drugs in his blood which means he was almost certainly HIGH ON DRUGS while he was assaulting Zimmerman. And it also means he was most likely a CHRONIC DRUG USER.

    If it was just a urine test…sure maybe he just got some second hand drug smoke from his bad drug using friends when they were hotboxing their car…(we’ll just ignore the drug related school suspension)

    But the blood test…well that’s not much else to say…and its going to be up to Mr Crump to try to tenuously prove, that Martin wasn’t a chronic drug user high on drugs on the night in question and nevermind the school suspension and nevermind the wedding rings, diamond necklaces, bracelets, and large screwdriver in his bag, “he just found those…shame on you for thinking he stole them”

    For those that think drugs makes you more mellow…not necessarily. Every drug affects people differently. That why there are happy drunk and mean drunks, same applies to any other mind altering substance.

    Now for some upfront speculation…I speculate that Martin was out getting high after being cooped up in his house. He’s walking back with some snacks to combat the cotton mouth from the drugs that he knew would onset given his historical experience with the drugs and decides to take the long way back so he can actually case the houses in his own family’s community for an upcoming burglary so he can increase his collection of stolen jewlery or other sellable items, possibly to buy more drugs or other status symbols yearned for by young blossoming criminals.
    Zimmerman saw this young black male doing what so many young black males had either gotten away with or busted for in the previous two weeks (casing/burglary/robbery) and I bet there have been no more burglary’s and robberies in this community ever since.

  152. You can say its “cavil” but that’s not the point. Neither is the point what a jury can be “fooled” into doing or not doing.

    The point was you asserted a fact that is simply not a fact let alone a stubborn fact. A stubborn fact doesn’t require someone to be or not to be rational/reasonable, its defacto. No opinion is required to be rendered from the obsever

    Here is a fact:
    Zimmerman shot Martin

    This is not a fact
    Zimmerman followed and produced a confrontation with Martin

    You can ignore the salient fact that Zimmerman agreed not to follow Martin, and cynically assume Zimmerman just did it anyway, but that is just a cynical assumption…not a fact and certainly not a stubborn fact

  153. “Anon — he did not give a report that Martin followed Zimmerman back to the truck and jumped him, did he?”

    Yeah, okay, sometimes I’m slow, but no, he didn’t appear to, but who is “he” anyway, seriously who are you talking about?? And what’s the importance of that?

  154. Oh Manny, now just implies that all the robberies will end with the death of Trayvon Martin. Look, if I was a robber, I would stay the hell away from that neighborhood too with all the media and police attention. What a horrible thing to say. Slander with no evidence.

    Zimmerman saying he would not follow Martin is not supported by the evidence at all. Why didnt he tell the dispatcher he would be in his parked truck? Because he was still following Martin.

    And NO, ask the police or anyone who knows about the effects of marijuana. It does not make people violent, even chronic users. The prescription drugs Zimmerman was taking, well, that is a different story. They have all sorts of wacky side effects.

    Adderall and Temazepam, look them up. George is taking sleeping pills and pills for ADHD or narcolepsy…….

  155. Yeah, I don’t think I’m healthy enough to live Grace Slick as she lived back in the 60s.

    It’s actually a very nicely done, not official video of that song. I kind of regretted including it, that was pleased that whoever made it did a good job.

    One of the points being of course that Zimmerman appeared to have been on contradictory drugs, one to focus is mind, one to put him to sleep. And of course, both of players in this tragedy were involved in drugs in one way or another.

  156. Manny O, you’ve really gone too far now.

    “Regarding the calls of “foul” over saying Martin was high on drugs during his unusually violent behavior that night”

    What unusually violent behavior that night?

    Do you know for a fact that beating up a Hispanic stranger at night was unusual for Trayvon Martin?

    Do you know for a fact that Trayvon Martin’s behavior in beating up George Zimmerman — BEATING UP GEORGE ZIMMERMAN — was not a result of George Zimmerman smacking Martin’s cell phone out of his hand while asking, “What are you doing here?”

    Do you know for a fact that…

    Well, the point is just that whenever you assume something, you embed it in a sentence saying “when he” or “after he” or the like, to slip it in as if it were already a “fact in evidence.”

    But when anyone else points out what really CAN be proven about what took place that night, you come up with semantic argument-like sound bytes that you think signify that their rendition of the obvious is untrue.

    Even the police knew that they couldn’t change the fact that Zimmerman chased after and started a confrontation with Martin. Everybody knows that. The Governor gave a little one-sentence comment that the SYG law did not apply to this case (well it does, but only for Martin’s actions, which is now moot because of his death) and yet everybody acts like it might be involved somehow. But useless defensive arguments about Zimmerman not being the pursuer, about the poor fellow being ambushed by an unarmed youth who only minutes before was trying to “run” and “get away,” are just that: useless defensive arguments. I don’t think O’Mara’s going to rely upon them.

  157. Anon, “And of course, both of players in this tragedy were involved in drugs in one way or another.”

    Don’t do that. They weren’t two “players in [a] tragedy.” One of them initiated, prolonged and ultimately produced this tragedy. The other was trying to exit from it and there was NO EXIT.

    When people say that two domestic partners are “players in a tragedy” after one of them is killed by the other, it is at least a little more understandable. But when you take two strangers, and one of them spots, reports, follows, and kills the other, that’s not “players in [a] tragedy.” One of them did not play. He WAS played.

  158. Oh I just read the whole post Manny O put up where he ended up speculating that the death of Trayvon Martin was the cure for all the burglary problems in the neighborhood!

    OMG OMG, this is a symptom of something so sick that there simply MUST be a phrase coined for it and a book written about it, MUST, RIGHT NOW!

    It brings to mind the fact that early on, when the Zimmerman defense folks were justifying what he did (and the police inaction about it) by saying that there had been a bunch of burglaries in the neighborhood and “a shooting,” I kept looking for reports of the shooting. I wanted to see who had shot whom. I looked and looked and guess what — could not find any reports of any shooting in the neighborhood. Then I realized that the report of the shooting had dropped out of the media and the blogs, and all that we heard about was burglaries and shoplifting. Shooting forgotten about, OK?

    Then Taafe goes on TV and says Zimmerman was “fed up” by all the crime.

    The Z-Defense Team just HAD to show that it was crime that got Martin killed, not Zimmerman who got Martin killed.

    And now we have a post-mortem done by a Z-Defense Team guy who was obviously outraged that murder charges were leveled against his hero:

    Retroactively Manny O attributes a crime wave to Trayvon Martin.

    Manny, why don’t you kill somebody to stop the crimes presently being committed in whatever state you live in? Be sure to pick someone who has no criminal record and NO GUN.

  159. Don’t do that. They weren’t two “players in [a] tragedy.” One of them initiated, prolonged and ultimately produced this tragedy. The other was trying to exit from it and there was NO EXIT.

    Interesting. I didn’t call one the protagonist and one the antagonist.

    But so far the evidence I have seen is that even though Zimmerman initiated the event, and as the cop said, the whole thing could have been avoided had Zimmerman just sat in his car, the testimony of the one witness that Martin was beating Zimmerman up is at the moment compelling to me.

    Regardless of what an asshole Zimmerman may have been, I haven’t seen anything yet that justifies any sort of physical encounter.

    Zimmerman is allowed to be a verbally abusive jackass that inappropriately challenges Martin in the night, and Martin is still not allowed to touch Zimmerman. And vice-versa of course.

    I don’t think all tragedies have to have a good guy and a bad guy. Sometimes they have two good guys, or two bad guys, or just two humans in a rotten situation.

  160. Given what we know from the tapes of Zimmerman’s state of mind, I think it is a reasonable asumption that Martin either confronted Z, or Zimmerman grabbed Martin from behind, In either case, there is no question that Zimmerman considered Martin a criminal. Thus, he had every reason and expectation that he had the right to fight and/or stop Martin. So it is more than likely Z initiated physical contact in either case since he already has a prior assault on record on a COP! Martin has no such record, Zimmerman DOES, and on a COP for crying out loud. THAT takes some balls and major aggression issues. Then we DO know Zimmerman had script and probably taking drugs too. The level of THC in Martin is negligible and simply says he smoked dope 4 to 5 days ago.

    AS for the contention that Martin was doing drugs when he went to the store can be disproved since we KNOW when he left home, and when he got to the store. From what i have seen it is improbable he had time to do any..

  161. anon, Just because you started a fight and are losing, does NOT mean you are entitled to use deadly force. Absent any weapon in Martin’s hand, Zimmerman had NO legal right to pull a gun on him and shoot him dead. Hell, even cops are not allowed to use deadly force in such a situation and they must meet relative level of force with that level.

    If I were there and saw Z pull a gun. I would pull mine and tell him to put his down or HE DIES. The injuries Z got were so minor that he was NOT being beaten to an inch of his life. If Z had major concussions and massive head wounds, he MIGHT have a case. His nose would have to be flattened to his face, and large pool of blood would have to be where the fight happened. All of that is absent and the most Z got was a minor scuffing and scratches on his head.

  162. Ah, but the skittles! That’s where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, and with geometric logic, that time to smoke a joint had existed!

  163. anon, Just because you started a fight and are losing, does NOT mean you are entitled to use deadly force.


    Absent any weapon in Martin’s hand, Zimmerman had NO legal right to pull a gun on him and shoot him dead.

    That’s not as clear to me. Your points regarding what the paramedics describe as minor injuries are salient. But if the doctor says otherwise, and if as the witness says that Trayvon really had the upper hand and was going after him with MMA punches, then maybe not. Maybe Zimmerman can make the case he really did fear for his life. Especially if his claim is that he didn’t throw the first punch and was even heading back to his car.

  164. It is clear that they had to be face to face when the fight started otherwise Z would NOT have wound up on his back, and scratches to the back of his head. That said, I have no idea of what MMA punches would look like nor do I think ANY witness would since it was dark. If Martin had been making life threatening moves, Z would look a HELL of a lot worse than he did!

    For me, I would have to see an eye hanging down out of its socket, a nose torn off or loose, lips severly bruised and swollen or any one of those things to convince a reasonable person Z was in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death. A 140lbs kid hitting on a 200+ guy does NOT make for an imminent threat of death. Now if Martin were a certified or trained martial arts master, then you might have a point. Absent that and the physical evidence I have seen. Z had NO right to use deadly force in that situation.,

  165. Anon, you’re perhaps thinking that when Martin saw Zimmerman “spot” him in the car, and then told his girlfriend, “someone’s following me” or “a guy’s following me,” that he just thought, “oh some guy.” Perhaps you’re thinking that THEN, when he sees Zimmerman is OUT of his car and still in pursuit, he’s still thinking, “Oh some guy.”

    Had I been there that night, and a “guy” was following me and then showed up again, on foot, I would not have thought, “oh some guy.” I would have thought, “OMG, OMG, either a rapist [yes, there are rapists who target teen-aged boys, not just frail pretty ladies] or a kidnapper or a crazed murderer or a pervert of some sort or a serial murderer or something like that.” Why would I have thought that?

    Alone, at night, in the rain, not a cop, coming at me, having followed me, here again, no clear reason for this, don’t like the look of this, do not like the look of this.

    If you’re in a situation of danger, the LAST thing you want to do is engage in a friendly conversation. You can end up carved into pieces, body parts never found, shortly thereafter. If you think there is “no reason” for a physical act on the FOLLOWED PERSON’s part, you’ve got the staging wrong.

    If someone comes up to you on a public street in broad daylight, you have no reason for physical confrontation.

    If someone comes up to you in a fast food restaurant, you have no reason for physical confrontation.

    If someone comes up to you in the hallway of a hospital, you have no reason for physical confrontation.

    If someone who was following you in their car then comes up to you on foot, in a dark place where you have no exit, without calling out to you in a friendly way to make you aware that he is non-threatening, without giving you a good reason for him to follow you (“Hey you dropped your wallet”), you do NOT assume he is friendly. You very well MAY assume he is dangerous. Much of that has to do with what you instinctively feel when you see the person approach. Eyebrows up and together? Brow furrowed? Face flushed or tensed? Lips pressed together? Scowling?

    There may have been a hundred good reasons for Martin to try to physically defend himself. After all, Zimmerman WAS armed and dangerous. We are ASSUMING that he did not have his gun out early on, but that assumption may not even be true.

  166. There can be “two humans in a rotten situation,” but in this case, one of the humans PUT the other human into that rotten situation.

    Martin was trying to get out of what he already perceived to be a rotten situation when Zimmerman said to the cops, “Shit, he’s running.”

  167. I just don’t know what happened that night. No one seems to have provided enough evidence of what actually took place, and lots of people seem to want to call speculation evidence. And I’m not a lawyer, perhaps that’s what lawyers are taught to do.

    Maybe I just suck as a human, because it’s clear there are many people here that seem to know exactly what happened.

  168. OMG OMG, this is a symptom of something so sick that there simply MUST be a phrase coined for it and a book written about it, MUST, RIGHT NOW!

    It may be the ‘Dead Men Tell No Tales’ doctrine.

  169. Anon, we do NOT know exactly what happened. But we DO know that it was not Trayvon Martin’s fault. We know that because he didn’t look for any fight, he didn’t look for any confrontation, and he was not committing any crime.

    Zimmerman was a person who was already very much identified within the community and even within the police community as being obsessed with the idea that he was going to be a crime-fighter. He had an emotional problem with that. He felt “fed up” and irritated that he had not been able to “clean up the Wild West” as any proper Clint Eastwood (or Wyatt Earp or whoever those other heroes were) would have been able to do. He had anger management problems. He had all sorts of issues that were not dealt with, and he had a history of violent behavior and some weirdness. He had been going around handing out leaflets to residents who were just not as gung ho as he was to “catch bad guys.”

    We do know THIS about what happened that night: Zimmerman expressed his frustration and negativity TOWARDS MARTIN right on the recording to the police, as he got out of the car to follow Martin. He said:

    “These assholes always get away.”

    This is an extremely important sentence. He had already decided that Martin was appropriately the object of his scorn and anger. An “asshole.”

    Zimmerman had decided Martin was a “bad guy.”

    HE DID FOLLOW MARTIN. We do know that.

    They asked, “Are you following him?” “Yeah.”

    Could it be possible that right after he admitted following Martin, he suddenly became docile and non-hostile, abandoned his prior position of regarding Martin as a “bad guy” deserving of punishment, and just figured he’d go peacefully back to his car and let the asshole get away?

    Right here we cannot say that we can rule that out absolutely, no, but it doesn’t make sense, not with what we already DO know about both George Zimmerman (he goes too far, he thinks he will get away with things, he fancies himself the right person to teach others a lesson if they’re out of line, he’s easily moved to anger) and the general situation (Zimmerman got OUT of his car although he did not have to do that).

    So whereas we do not absolutely know that Zimmerman struck first, or made the hostile move that ignited the situation, or did whatever it took to make Martin fear him enough to defend himself by any means necessary, we can probably get to a point I would put beyond “reasonable doubt.”

    I think if I’m a director of a movie and I have a guy like Zimmerman all pumped up to catch and apprehend Martin, and I have the scene halfway there, and then the workshop actors suggest, “I think right here Zimmerman has the motivation to return to his truck without finishing the job of apprehending the criminal,” the director has to say, “No, guys, that won’t work. The audience won’t go for that.”

    I’m just saying.

  170. Police report: Trayvon Martin’s shooting was ‘avoidable’
    By William M. Welch, Yamiche Alcindor and Donna Leinwand Leger

    Trayvon Martin’s fatal encounter with George Zimmerman was “avoidable,” and the teen was not doing anything criminal at the time of their confrontation on Feb. 26, a report by Sanford, Fla., police says.

    The report, dated March 13, came nearly a month before a special prosecutor brought second-degree-murder charges against Zimmerman, 28, in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon. He has pleaded not guilty and said he acted in self-defense.

    “The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely, if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party’s concern,” the report says. “There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter.”

    A large cache of reports, documents, photos and other descriptions of evidence in the case were released to the public Thursday evening after being disclosed previously to defense attorneys. The case has attracted worldwide attention with accusations by Trayvon’s family and civil rights leaders that Zimmerman, who is Hispanic, targeted Trayvon because he was black and said he appeared to be “up to no good.”

    The report says a single bullet perforated Trayvon’s heart.
    Other police investigative reports said that Trayvon had been staying in the gated residential complex for a week before the shooting and that he had been sent to the home of a friend by his father after the teen had been suspended from school for 10 days for marijuana possession. A toxicology report on his body found a small amount of THC, the psychoactive chemical in marijuana, in his blood.

    A police report concluded that at the time he was confronted by Zimmerman, Trayvon “was in fact generally running in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood.”

    Zimmerman had reported “suspicious persons, all young black males” to police on three previous occasions in 2011, the reports said.

    “According to record checks, all of Zimmerman’s suspicious person calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified Black males as the subjects,” the report said.

  171. New Details Are Released in Shooting of Trayvon Martin
    Published: May 17, 2012

    According to a report by another officer, Timothy Smith, the police offered Mr. Zimmerman the chance to be taken to hospital at least three times — at the scene, during the ride to the police station and after arriving at the station — and he declined each time.

  172. Manny O:

    You make some good points, I think. But . . .

    “If Dad says to Child, Dont you ever do X again, and then Child says “ok” that means the child agrees and will not do it again.”

    From my corner of the playground, what the kid says to dad is one thing, and what the kid does when dad is out of sight, is quite another.

  173. Evidence is released in the Trayvon Martin homicide

    A trove of evidence collected for George Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial was made public Thursday, including the report that shows the lead detective originally wanted to file manslaughter charges because he said the whole encounter could have been avoided with better judgment and a little dialogue.

    But the cache of forensic evidence, autopsy results, documents, audio tapes and police reports also paints a murky portrait of a fight between two people that left a teenager dead, a man facing life in prison, and a community shaken.

    Some witnesses contradicted each other and others were flat wrong. Some heard two shots, when only one was fired. A few people saw the man with a red shirt — Zimmerman — on top during the fight, while others saw Trayvon Martin straddling Zimmerman and throwing punches. Still others were convinced it was Trayvon who cried for help, although police disagreed.

    Ultimately, police, medical and witness accounts verify that Zimmerman’s nose was broken and that he was punched repeatedly by a scrawny unarmed teenager who straddled him as terrified neighbors called police. Records released by State Attorney Angela B. Corey on Thursday show the lead Sanford police investigator believed it was the neighborhood watch volunteer who was recorded screaming the word “help” 14 times in 38 seconds.

    Other witnesses described Zimmerman as nonchalant after the killing. Two people who said they knew him told police that he was a racist and a bully, once fired from a job for complaining so much about co-workers and bosses.

    In mid-March, the Sanford police chief announced that no probable cause existed to make an arrest. In a document dated the next day, the lead detective swore otherwise.


    The evidence included statements from nearly two dozen witnesses, such as leaders of the homeowners association and other residents at the Retreat at Twin Lakes townhouse development.

    “I feel in my heart … I honestly do believe … that he intended for this kid to die,” one witness said.

    One statement came from a Middle Eastern man who said Zimmerman taunted him at work by acting out ventriloquist Jeff Dunham’s “Achmed the Dead Terrorist” character, played by his dummy puppet.


    He said Zimmerman was fired in 2008 for filing too many complaints about managers and co-workers. Another woman called police to say Zimmerman was confrontational and “does not like black people.”

  174. In following this whole soap opera, I have come to two conclusions:

    1. Speculate and argue all you want, but no one is going to know the extent of the forensic evidence until it is presented in court. I am a very patient person and am willing to let the story play out to its fullest extent. I think I will be disappointed if GZ takes a plea and we do not get to hear a presentation of exhibits and testimony.

    2. Zimmerman has been watching too many movies, methinks. Most likely too many Charles Bronson movies.

  175. The discovery documents in the article Elaine cites can be seen here in .pdf form. All 184 pages are redacted in to hide addresses and names of witnesses although there are some large blocks of text blacked out as well.

  176. If I may enter a caveat:

    So it is more than likely Z initiated physical contact in either case since he already has a prior assault on record on a COP!

    this is exactly why I would like to take a look at the court files. Initially it was a resisting arrest with force, then it was downgraded to resisting arrest without force. One version suggests aggression the other not necessarily. Although the downgrading may be related to the process of opening up a chance for the Pretrial Diversion Program.

    Arguments can escalate, something even the most dovish will acknowledge. My main interest is really: why and how exactly (?), with the tragic results we all know.

    concerning this:

    For those that think drugs makes you more mellow…not necessarily. Every drug affects people differently. That why there are happy drunk and mean drunks, same applies to any other mind altering substance.

    Maybe we are facing another problem in this context. Am I correct you have much experience with alcohol but none at all with Cannabis or Marijuana? Besides being aware that consumption is a criminal activity?

  177. Well I think that most people can recall the Woodstock festival in which over half a million young people were in a grim situation with very few violent incidients. The cops were pleasantly surprised that there were so few such things, and attributed that to the great use of dope, rather than alcohol. So we have an excellent mass experiment on how marijuana affects masses of people. Even if Martin had been high, which he wasn’t, it would tend to make him more peaceful than aggresive.

  178. Arthur, were you around in Woodstock?

    There seems to be quite a bit of effort in the more politicized research, at least that is what I assume, to connect marijuana and aggression. Maybe it would be interesting to look at the study designs. But I guess, we all have to live with the fact that there are much, much more things we do not know than know.

    I have no idea how this WordPress feature work. is this a private comment or will it show up on the thread?

  179. As a matter of fact, I wanted to go to Woodstock, but I had to work that weekend so I missed it. I was living in CT at the time, so it would have been normally a short drive. Of course, had I tried, to go, it would have taken me all weekend to get there if I ever did. The reason I mention that is it proved that marijuana does NOT cause any aggression, and in fact does the opposite. That was a mass experiment conducted on over a half a million young people. As the cops said at the time, if there had been as much alcohol around, that crowd would have been UGLY and they would have had a MUCH harder time.

    So to posit that Martin was aggressive because of a trace of THC in his system, is absurd since dope does the OPPOSITE as PROVED by over half a million young folks at Woodstock.

  180. Wait a minute, wait a minute. We’re discussing Zimmerman’s wounds? Why? Autopsy report says single bullet, entered chest, INTERMEDIATE RANGE, angle = straight through.

    Zimmerman was not on the ground being pummeled, finally pulling out his gun and squeezing off a shot while Trayvon Martin struggled to get control of the fire-arm.

    Intermediate range, angle STRAIGHT into the chest.

    Intermediate range. I don’t have to measure that. It means Zimmerman’s version of the events do not match the physical evidence. O’Mara has to be working hard to earn his fee right now.

  181. Zimmerman was also working as a bouncer in private parties before, and Martin had no such experience. Zimmerman tended to “go off” when he was angry — that’s on record. Martin had no such reputation. All the odds are in favor of people thinking the chances of Martin “attacking” Zimmerman are no greater than 50/50 no matter how you look at it. For self-defense, that would not be a great number to play with.

    I think the police work is interesting. If you look at what those Hiller Armaments folks from Virginia said in their advertising, “Of course we support George Zimmerman. We think he is innocent. He shot a thug.” you can see what probably motivated the police on 2/26/2012, when real cops doing their real job properly and without racist motivations or even corrupt motivations would have collected all the evidence and charged Zimmerman with at least manslaughter RIGHT THEN: They thought, very easily, “He is innocent; he shot a thug,” and their attitude toward the deceased dominated their thinking about whether their suspect was supposed to be investigated properly or arrested according to law. That stuff about self-defense was just window dressing. You can tell because they did not do any part of their job properly that night.

    After all, just checking out some innocent guy who shot a thug. It was his perfect right to shoot thugs; that’s what his gun was for!

  182. Malisha, below the comment I tried to post yesterday, it didn’t work, and it doesn’t work today. What if I try to delete the two links?

    Slightly late since one of today’s articles (was it Elaine’s Miami Herald link?) provide a more specific figure, maybe based on the documents. Maybe the specific would can tell us about if it is more likely the lower or higher end.

    The most interesting of course would be GZ’s narrative and a video of the reenactment.


    Arthur, That is the nail in Zimmerman’s coffin. & Dredd, not so fast Arthur, this doesn’t seem to tell us anything definitive.

    In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing. This type of wound is also characterized by numerous reddish-brown to orange-red lesions around the entrance to the wound. Finally, distant gunshot wounds leave no marks other than those produced by the bullet perforating the skin.

    My question would be, how close exactly to how far off?

    3. Intermediate range ( 6 – 8 inches to 1.5 – 3.5 feet): This is too far for soot to travel, so there is no fouling, but hot fragments of burning propellant (gunpowder) follow the bullet to the victim and produce stippling by causing pinpoint burns around the entrance wound. Of the two type of propellant, “ball” and “flake,” the former will produce stippling at a greater distance.

  183. I do not know enough about the voice forensics on the second 911 tape (from the neighbor) with the cries for “help” on it, but I believe those cries are too long and clear to be made while engaged in a physical wrestling match or fight. I think those cries are made by a person physically at rest, specifically, I think that AFTER a fight Trayvon was being held at gunpoint for several seconds and yelling for help when Zimmerman shot him in anger.

    That would make sense of the intermediate range; close enough that he cannot miss, far enough away that Trayvon could not reach him and Zimmerman could shoot if Trayvon tried to rush him or run away.

    Trayvon did the only thing he could do in that circumstance, start calling for help.

    I think that, when that was happening and Zimmerman had a chance to think, he realized police would be arriving soon, and Trayvon’s story would make him guilty of assault with a deadly weapon.

    (Hey lawyers, aren’t you guilty of assault just by showing people your gun to coerce cooperation?)

    A conviction like that would end his wannabe a police bully career. I think he struck upon the idea that he could save himself if he claimed self-defense, and he was so enraged and in pain already he pulled the trigger to silence Trayvon and save himself.

    The case was not over-charged, it was under-charged. I think it was premeditated murder. Premeditated for 30 seconds, but premeditated nonetheless.

  184. Cops, Witnesses Back Up George Zimmerman’s Version of Trayvon Martin Shooting

    It has been such a contentious case that even the evidence is being disputed.

    The police report states that Trayvon Martin’s father told an investigator after listening to 911 tapes that captured a man’s voice frantically callling for help that it was not his son calling for help.

    But Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father, claims that is not true. The Martin family lawyer Ben Crump told ABC News that Tracy Martin initially listened to a distorted version of the 911 calls and said he could not identify the voice. But when he listened to a second tape that had been “cleaned,” “He immediately broke down in tears because he knew it was his son calling for help,” Crump said.

  185. Elaine: I have read that Trayvon’s mother also identified the voice on the tape as Trayvon’s.

    For those unfamiliar with the law, recognizing somebody’s voice can be sworn testimony and it has contributed to convictions in the past.

    I think Zimmerman’s voice (for example, from the 911 tapes) can be examined and we can electronically get a probability that was HIS voice yelling for help. I think it was Trayvon and Zimmerman will not match, and that will add another lie to his story.

  186. to manny o
    I find your comments very unbiased and accurate. I recorded the bond hearing and Omara had the lead detective sworn in to testify. Omara. do you have any evidence that z. pursued M. answer. no. Omara, I mean to this day, right now, do you have any evidence that Z pursued M. answer, no. Omara, do you have physicians report of Z injuries. answer No. Omara, have you requested injury reports of Z injuries that night. answer. no. They charged z without looking or reading any reports on Z injuries. I just heard the state att. question M. girlfriend, the ear witness. Please take the time to find it and listen. I can’t believe that this is the states star witness. She proves nothing. She does try to get M. to run, he said, no, I;m not running. She heard ‘the grass’ what the hell. the grass?, she does say that m was close to his dads house and that z. was getting closer. Depending where z started walking towards M. it’s impossible to tell how close, could be any distance away. No way to tell how close Z was. She says T was hollering, but before that she states she could barely hear anything but the grass. She was hearing this from a blue tooth headset that was probably been knocked off and no telling where it way laying. .. Just wanted to say manny o that it’s really nice to hear from someone that considers all facts. comments he made on twitter have been dl and saved before site was shut down. You can read his tweets and form your own opinion as to M. You hear everything bad about Z on here. nothing about M. check out his background according to school officials, not pleasant.

  187. I think those cries are made by a person physically at rest, specifically

    do you have the female witness in mind, Tony? The one who immediate thinks about an elder man a couple of houses away from her? It would be an enormous coincidence, if someone else cried at the same time. I am not suggesting it’s impossible. But the cries are clearly out in the open and don’t come from inside a house, it feels.

    But strictly I asked myself too, if it could be two different voices, the last before the shot seems slightly more pitched and terrified, different to the ones before. It’s a pity that we cannot hear the whole scene acoustically because of the long blank, they could blank out the details for us. ;)

    Can you understand, what exactly the man in the background says shortly before the shot and what the lady is answers? I don’t trust myself completely at that point. Also I wonder, from the little we hear, if in the early shouts something is articulated, but I don’t seem to get that either, no matter how often I listen to it.

    It surely makes no sense to accept both Zimmerman’s statement that Trayvon had his hand over his mouth and he is still able to articulate these kind of cries. It’s either or.

  188. @leander22: I have in mind the 911 call I heard, by a woman, about somebody crying for help behind her house. What else is said on that call may or may not be important, what I am focusing on is the long drawn out nature of the yell; it sounds typical to me of a full yell that expels as much air as possible from the lungs in trying to achieve maximum volume, without interference by body movement or alteration of breathing by exertion, twisting, or being hit or pushed. When people fight their breath is in short chops, sometimes held and sometimes expelled explosively or taken in gasps.

    This series of yells for help does not sound like a person fighting: I believe the length of the “sustained note” in those yells is not possible during a struggle; and I believe somebody more expert in voice mechanics than me could put some authority behind that.

    I do not believe the person yelling for help on that tape was engaged in a fight.

  189. I agree with Tony C. A person being hit repeatedly in the head, would not have an uninterupted cry. There would be interuptions at each hit, and I wonder how Zimmerman had the chance to get his gun out with one hand while simultaneously warding off the rain of blows that were life threatening.

    If I were the prosecutor, I would love to get Z on the stand and cross examine him. There are so many questions that could blow holes in his story, that it would leave him bleeding worse than he was on that night.

  190. It should be a law that every case involving a homicide should go to a grand jury. I heard Corey state that not one of her cases had went to a g.j. Well, I don’t necessarily think that’s a good thing. Especially in light of another case that she was involved in. I can’t smoke pot, I get freakishly paranoid. Which proves nothing about this case. I read all the things that M. was involved in. No wonder his mom sent him to his dad’s. I would have too. A grand jury would have been the best thing for everyone involved. Now, go ahead everyone, tell me how ignorant I am for even thinking that.

  191. to aouthern bell
    top shot here. i think you are absolutly right. that makes much more since then all this lies and one sided, blind sided notions about what happened that night. people refuse to listen to, or they twist facts to suit there apinions. grand jurys don’t do that. i read the twitter pages that they copyed of martins before they took it down. you actually have to clickon a thing befoer you can go to the states that it was made only for adults and might be offensive to some people. i;m a grown man and i can’t believe some of the stuff this kid says. it’s unnecessarily vulgur. just plain grose. he talks to women like they were dogs. he obviously no respect for anything.or anyone.l

  192. Tony C. Yes, I completely agree with your brilliant observations here. The sociopath George Zimmerman thinks for a spit second that Trayvon will wreck his career before it starts if he is allowed to talk to the cops, and shoots him in cold blood.

    The physical damage done to Zimmerman by Martin was too humiliating to bear if he was not “fighting for my life”. After all he is the former bouncer getting his ass kicked by a slim reed of a teenager.

    We may be on the more radical side of opinion, but it is a very logical grassy knoll.

  193. Ben Jealous on DemocracyNow! earlier today:

    Ben Jealous: “Heartbreaking” Trayvon Tapes Capture Experience of Millions Racially Profiled in U.S.

    download: Video/Audio

    “Benjamin Jealous, the president and CEO of the NAACP, joins us to react to the new audio recordings and documents released in the investigation of Trayvon Martin’s killing. The evidence indicates a fight occurred between Martin and his alleged killed George Zimmerman, but police determined the deadly encounter was “ultimately avoidable” if Zimmerman had not pursued Martin. An autopsy also shows Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range.” Reacting to a recording of Martin’s girlfriend recounting her phone call with Martin moments before his death, Jealous says: “It’s heartbreaking to listen to his childhood girlfriend talk about the experience of listening to him be hunted on the street just before he was killed. It dramatizes for people the experience of millions of young people across this country every year when they are racially profiled, whether it’s by community watch volunteers or by cops.””

  194. malisha
    where did the compromised mental state come from or is that just your assumption? it sure isn’t on the 911 call. i haven’t seen or heard that and i want to know where you got it. you can prove to everyone that your not just spewing hate or you ccan prove that you know any facts about this case at all. so where is the report that z had a compromised mental state.? put up or shut up. it’s that simple

  195. “I Know He Was Scared”: Trayvon Martin’s Girlfriend Recounts Phone Call Right Before Fatal Shooting

    “Florida prosecutors have released a trove of documents, photographs and audio recordings revealing new details about the night George Zimmerman shot dead the unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida. We broadcast excerpts of the chilling recording of the police interview with Trayvon’s girlfriend. She and Trayvon were talking on the phone in the moments leading up to his death. “I know he was scared,” the girl recounts. “I told him, ‘Keep running!’ … He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is [Trayvon saying], ‘Why are you following me for?’ … I heard this man… say, ‘What are you doing around here?’ … And I call Trayvon, ‘Trayon, what’s going on? What’s going on?’ … Then, I am calling him and he didn’t answer…You could hear someone had bumped Trayvon…I was still screaming, I was saying, ‘Trayvon! Trayvon!’…And then the next thing the phone just shut off.””

  196. I can’t smoke pot, I get freakishly paranoid. Which proves nothing about this case. I read all the things that M. was involved in.

    full disclosure, marijuana would be my favorite recreational drug, ideally sativa, if it was legal. I do not have the slightest interest in looking for someone selling it to me, although people tell me it is almost before my door.

    Concerning paranoia, well that may be due to the awareness you are doing something forbidden, no? I vividly remember my brother’s reaction ages, and ages ago. He was expecting to see white mice or something and waited for something extraordinary. In end nothing of what he expected happened, so he had two questions. What is the big fuss about this, and why do you like it?

    Concerning all the things M. was involved in, I am getting more and more interested in the facts around these stories. Just as in the exact details in who exactly hacked his site. I surely hope some experts will look into this.

  197. returning to the documents.

    Message to Tony, to make me join Shano’s assessment, I would need to hear continued cries, to accept, that yes, there is no “interference by body movement” or changing patterns suggestive of punches, but they aren’t continued. At least they don’t feel like that to me. I don’t hear anything anything that suggests they couldn’t be related to a struggle. But of course in this case I know what I am hearing, and I can’t get the knowledge out of my interpretation.

  198. My lawyer told me to never, ever tell anyone if you smoke marijuana. That is the surealism of having this plant classified as a Schedule 1 Drug. It is a very effective for pain relief & is an anti tumor agent.

    We know these things even though governments around the world with the help of the US have been making any research on pot ridiculously difficult.

    Humans have cannabinoid receptors all over their body, in every organ. Medicine should be able to take advantage of this biological fact.

  199. Tony C, I agree with you that the case was under-charged, and I believe that was done to avoid the Grand Jury so there couldn’t be a “grand jury nullification” in Sanford, which would have been more fodder for the feds to investigate. Corey was in a tough situation, and I think she chose wisely to use the evidence she had (bullet went in at no angle at all, straight in, at intermediate range) so as to keep this from getting completely out of control for her county (read “for her career”).

    Shano, I listened to the tape over and over and over again. I made myself deliberately callous to do so. I came to the point of a certain ability to identify with the screams (right before the shot) so that I could hear them, and still, couldn’t hear them. I don’t think there will be a trial; if O’Mara is as smart as he seems, there will be no trial. But the publicity now, with poor George’s head all over the place and all the boo hoo for Georgie, is designed to make it possible for him to negotiate a shorter, rather than longer, incarceration for his client.

    This is theater. If I were Trayvon’s mother, I would feel offended by it. If I were Zimmerman’s mother, I would probably feel conflicted but relieved (because the more there is, the more chance my son will be enabled to escape serious punishment). As I am Daniel’s mother (someone who has never been to Sanford, Florida), I want to let this case make its mark on me and on his memory of me by analyzing every bit of it as well as I can so that he can understand what happened to his country because of this case.

  200. Hi All,

    Those that still doubt that the drugs Martin had been taking can do anything but turn him into a calm pansy, just look at the anecdotal comment of one of the posters…they said “I can’t smoke weed, it makes me paranoid”. Paranoia can make people do crazy things

    Malisha – You gave all these scenarios where it would not be okay for Martin to unleash his tirade of violence on a stranger coming up to them, but give him a pass if its “dark” and his escape is blocked. First, its pretty unlikely his escape was blocked, there aren’t any dead end alleys in a living community, just a grid system with houses and decorative brush
    We already know Martin wasn’t interested in merely “escaping” or he would have after he floored Zimmerman…that actually further supports that Martin was the one that produced the confrontation. Second the whole basis of the argument that you have maintained that Martin essentially gets a pass on “any” level of violence just by his own state of mind is totally without merit.
    His state of mind could have been anything, just because he has some whacked out state of mind doesn’t give him license to commit violence.
    Do you realize there are people in prison doing 20 years to life because they were in a bar with their wife playing pool and some guy comes over and pinches his wife’s but them slaps her across the face when she recoils…the husband comes over and decks the guy and it just so happened the guy had some kind of jaw problem where the one punch to the face ends up killing him. The husband got put away!. But by your logic the husband’s state of mind should have given him a pass on beating the hell out of the scumbag because in the husbands mind he and his wife “felt threatened”.

    To the person who said: But we DO know that it was not Trayvon Martin’s fault. We know that because he didn’t look for any fight, he didn’t look for any confrontation, and he was not committing any crime.

    Au contraire…we don’t know “he didn’t look for any fight or that we wasn’t thwarted in crime by Zimmerman”

    The ONLY data we have his Zimmerman’s verbal agreement not to follow Martin and Zimmermans statement that Martin, after initially leaving sight came up behind Zimmerman’s flank and attacked him after talking smack to him

    Its certainly plausible that Martin was paranoid at this guy watching him, and decided to beat him up to teach him a lesson about watching him. Heck, criminals in prison kill other inmates just for looking at them….

    To patricparamedic: Your point about kids saying one thing and then disobeying parents once they are out of sight…sure…but

    But what would zimmerman have to have said to satisfy you that he wasn’t just lying to the dispatcher when he said “Ok” [i won’t try to find him]

    What else could he have said? Ok mr dispatcher,,I swear on my grandmothers grave I won’t

    It would have been one thing if he just said nothing sullenly…sure it would make sense he probably just ignored the dispatch, but no, without hesitation, he simply said “ok”…no guile there.

    At this point all evidence points to Martin producing the confrontation with Zimmerman. I agree that evidence is just the 911 calls “ok” and Zimmerman’s own statement, but its all there is.

    So please, stop declaring the pseudo-fact that “Zimmerman pursued Martin against dispatch instruction and produced a confrontation” There is simply no data to directly support that and if there is then CITE IT


  201. Manny O,

    Zimmerman pursued Martin against dispatch instructions, against Neighborhood Watch policy, and against reason and common sense, and against normal human decency, and produced a confrontation, and used that as an excuse to murder an unarmed kid.

    All your denial about that notwithstanding.

    When you said, “You gave all these scenarios where it would not be okay for Martin to unleash his tirade of violence on a stranger coming up to them, but give him a pass if its “dark” and his escape is blocked” — you assumed a fact not in evidence, your “fact” was:

    “Martin…unleash[ed] his tirade of violence on a stranger…”

    You will only be able to get that allegation into evidence as a proposed “fact” if Zimmerman testifies.

    You can believe it, others can believe it, but it can’t get into court unless Zimmerman says it under oath, and THEN he gets cross-examined.

    Print up this thread a send a copy to O’Mara.

  202. Malisha – You repeated your assertions, but where is the CITE? Where is the report/data/witness statement ANYTHING that contradicts the 911 recording or Zimmermans statements? Any witness statements that state they saw Zimmerman feverishly pursuing Martin? Please CITE

    On the unleashing of violence by martin, THERE IS WITNESS STATEMENTS where people saw Martin on top of Zimmerman landing MMA/UFC style punches on Zimmerman while he straddled Zimmerman and Zimmerman cried for help. The broken nose, the head lacerations…multiple reports confirm all of it. This level of violence most people would consider “unusual”. What would not be unusual? If Martin sucker punched him and then ran away once he was off his feet…but no, because the data we have (911 call and Zimmerman’s statement) has Martin as the producer of confrontation, Martin had no reason to leave, he just wanted to continue his onslaught even as neighbors saw and went to call the police (eye-witness statement)

    So can you point to even a single witness statement in the discovery or reports that show Zimmerman pursuing and producing a confrontation with Martin? That’s the difference here

  203. THERE IS WITNESS STATEMENTS where people saw Martin on top of Zimmerman landing MMA/UFC style punches on Zimmerman while he straddled Zimmerman and Zimmerman cried for help.

    This is such unmitigated BS I am surprised you have the gall to make it. LOOK at Zimmerman’s face! All I see is that he was being slapped at best. There is NO broken nose, since his doctor said possible nose break and NO x-rays confirming even a hairline fracture as was initially reported He sure as hell did not get a fist jammed into his mouth. There is NO swelling on the lips, NO cuts, NO broken or dislodged teeth, NO swelling above the eyes, no NOTHING! To say that Martin was landing MMA blows is absurd and you must be hallucinating. Ever see a boxing match? They are hit with padded gloves, NOT bare knuckles.

    The best evidence that Martin was NOT doing life threatening blows or even great bodily harm is Z’s face. There is one small cut on the bridge of Z’s nose which was probably the one blow Martin threw and landed. The nose hit was not enough to even require any major medical atttention. I have hit my nose that bled more than what Z had. I also had lots of blood on the front of my shirt too. I see NO such evidence of that anywhere on Z.. So WHERE is your evidence?

    We know for a FACT that they were facing each other when the fight started since Z got his head scratches most likely when he fell backwards onto the concrete. I am allowing your assumption that Martin did confront Zimmerman. As to who threw the first blow, or initiated physical contact, we have the written record of both. Martin was not suspended for fighting. Zimmerman has a RECORD of physically assaulting or resisting a COP. Zimmerman worked as a bouncer and had problems with anger management as reported by others. Martin had NO such record. Given those FACTS, I DO have a damn good idea of who started the physical confronation.

    My best guess is that given Zimmerman’s experience as a fighter and bouncer, he came up behind Martin, and either grabbed his arm to pull him around, and Martin spun and hit him. The unexpected twist is what threw Z off balance and he fell backwards. Even assuming Martin confronted Z and threw the first blow, how does a guy like Zimmerman get onto his back? The only way I can see for Zimmerman to get in that position, is to be taken by surprise when he tried to apprehend Martin.

  204. Manny O, the cite will come in court if Zimmerman takes the stand.

    The witness statements did not see anybody unleash violence. they saw a fight but no “unleashing” —

    I get to repeat myself as much as I like.

    Print this thread and send a copy to O’Mara.

  205. Manny, someone just estimated by the sounds on the 911 call that Gweorgie walked 60 feet past where he said OK. H edid not give the police his location. If he was going back to his truck why not say he would meet the police there?

    Oh yea, super criminal Trayvon had snuck up on George -out of sight- with a listening device so he could hear what George was saying.

    If Trayvon could hear George he would have KNOWN George was talking to the police, maybe thinking he was being followed by an undercover agent would have changed Trayvons behavior. I know it would mine- just a bit.

  206. Shano – Just read the discovery…Zimmerman was trying to locate a house number so he could give it to the police. Was Zimmerman allowed to walk anywhere after agreeing not to follow Martin?

    You really think Martin couldnt have circled around in paranoia and anger that someone was staring at him to teach Zimmerman a less in respect (staring is seen by many people as disrespectful…particularly inmates)

    I dont know where the 60feet comes from but I’ll take it at face value and its perfectly reasonable amount to walk to locate a readable house number

    Malisha – Ah you are just diverting… im not asking for a piece of sworn evidence, just ANYTHING in discovery, police report, witness statement, anything that directly contradicts the agreement by zimmerman on the 911 call to not follow Martin and zimmermans own statement.

  207. Hi Arthur Randolph Erb

    Clearly you haven’t been apprised to all the pictures and data by your statements. Yes, his nose was broken.. But anyway regarding your baseless assertion about my “unmitigated bs” gall, etc on the mma style straddled punches…

    Here is the witness and statement cite on the police report

    This is as good as it gets outside of sworn admissible testimony, all I ma looking for is something on par with this (witness statement, police report, video, discovery) where someon saw Zimmerman pursue and produce a confrontation with Martin.

    and here:

    On your last paragraph, it shows a bit of a lack of imagination “the only way I can[for zimmerman to get on his back”
    It doesnt matter who pursued who in this instance…all it takes to get on your back is someone decking you where you see it coming or you get sucker punched. Then you are on your back. If Martin was scared, he could have then runaway, but because he was the producer/aggressor he had not reason to stop and runaway, he got on top of him and proceeded to needlessly beat his head into the ground as stated by the witnesses. Heck martin didnt even stop when people started shouting at him they were calling the police. talk about cold blooded

  208. First off, there is NO evidence that I have seen that Z had a broken nose. In order to PROVE that, it will take an X ray of Zs nose and an independent doctors statement to that effect. Absent that, it is just BS.

    I read the witnesses written statement and it made NO mention of MMA blows at all. In any case, given the lighting conditions it would be impossible to see Martins hands especially since they were moving. So the MMA stuff is CRAP! Also please tell us all what the differnce between MMA blows and his fists hiting Z. You are reading too much rightwing nuts stuff. Also as for his supposed stuff on twitter I also read his site was hacked and I have NO confidence on the so called tweets and I sure as HELL KNOW that the sites you use normally lie.

    I have been sucker punched before from the front and I never wound up on my back. I got tagget pretty well too. But I can see that accepting your scenario, Martin could have pushed him back as he swung, which in any case shows clearly that they were facing each other. Martin did NOT attack from behind which is the contention of some. Falling Z hit his head and got his scratches on his head. He was NOT being pounded into the pavement since there would be swelling at the sight of the scratches. There is NONE! You also fail to explain why Zimmermans face is hardly marked at all. No split lip, NO teeth broken or even loose, no swelling above the eyes. only a slight scratch on the bridge of his nose. THOSE ARE NOT MARKS consistent with a beating that was so violent that it might reasonably cause great bodily harm or death. THAT is the standard needed to allow the use of deadly force in a fist fight if even then. Absent any weapon in Martins hand, Zimmerman had NO right to shoot.

  209. Assuming that Martin did hit Z first, it in no way justifies using deadly force against him. If you think it does, then there will be lot of dead women who slap. You would have to say that they MIGHT land a deadly blow and thus deady force is needed. Not only that, but many women have martial arts training and there is NO way to know that they cannot land a death blow. Get REAL! Nobody gets to use disproportionate force against another no matter what.

  210. Cmon…you get real. You are equating a single slap with a guy that decks another guy and then has the audacity to sit down on top of him (preventing his escape) and then viciously proceed to land blow after blow after blow on his face and head as well as taking hold of his head and slamming it into the concrete multiple times producing rear head wounds, and a concussion on the back of his head. Give us all a break…

    Your last comment is hardly worthy of a reply…

  211. viciously proceed to land blow after blow after blow on his face and head as well as taking hold of his head and slamming it into the concrete multiple times producing rear head wounds, and a concussion on the back of his head. Give us all a break…

    Evey part of that is BS. If that were the case, that he landed blow after blow, there would be cuts, swelling, loose teeth, split lip, and around the head scratches, there would be noticeable swelling from the impacts. There are NONE of those things! Give us a break The photos show conclusively that NONE of that happened. As any person who has hit their head pretty well can tell you, it only takes a short whitle for swelling to show up and you can see and feel the goose egg. Zimmerman shows NONE of that.

  212. We could all “fight-choreograph” the thing from now until Zimmerman’s doomsday and it wouldn’t help. HIS story can only make it into evidence if HE tells it. If HE tells it, he will be cross-examined. Certain little things he previously said that were recorded will be open to cross-examination.

    I’m not holding my breath for Mr. O’Mara to decide to put George Z on the stand to undo himself. There is a deal being worked out, and getting more public opinion on Z’s side is an important part of working out an acceptable deal. Now, it’s pure theater.

    The facts that are knowable have not changed from day 1: Zimmerman, in a compromised mental state, targeted and profiled Martin; he chased him and killed him. Martin tried to defend himself and failed. The police didn’t think it was very important and they let Z go until there was a public outcry.

  213. Man…the MMA style blows are right here in black and white…

    Its the witness statement,…you may not like it, you can think its crap and conspiracy, yet it remains as a witness statement. You called bs on it bieng in the witness statement and are proven wrong. Lets move on

    Regarding the broken nose, you are wrong there as well. Here is the cite its in the medical report.

    Again you may not like the medical report, you can think its crap and conspiracy, yet it remains as part of the evidence submitted into the court

  214. TO Manny O , I have read that statement already. It is too bad you cannot understand simple things. There are TWO statements in that link. The first is the COPs statement of what he THINKS the witness said and the cop mentions the MMA blows. That is simply PROOF that the cop was trying to cover up for Zimmerman, Unless I can hear or see a transcription of the interview, I have to believe it is ONLY the cops statement. The second part is the WRITTEN statement of the witness. The only thing in black and white from the witness does NOT mention the MMA term at ALL!

    As for the so called proof of a broken nose, all that you offered is a report of the documents submitted to the court, one of which may have said Zimmerman had a broken nose. That does NOT constitute proof at all. I have broken lots of bones in my life, and I have NEVER had a doctor simply look at the limb or part, and say it is broken. They ALL have demanded and gotten an X-RAY. Until there is an Xray with a doctors statement having said he looked at the xray and concludes the nose is broken, the assertion of a broken nose is UNPROVEN. Anything else is simply OPINION which MAY or MAY NOT be correct.

    Once again, you refuse to answer simple questions. WHERE is the GOOSE EGG? Where are the cuts, swelling, abrasions, broken teeth, split lips, swollen lip, and other NORMAL indications of a beating?

    Zimmerman looks no worse than I do after chasing my dogs through the woods!

  215. Picture of Zimmerman rear head wounds

    Picture of Zimmerman broken nose. Bulge on the left when facing him. Yes the picture is not conclusive evidence of a broken nose, but the medical report is which means we are looking at a picture of a broken nose

  216. People can claim his injuries are “no big deal” but a head injury is a big deal no matter how things look. The fact is this really was a vicious attack by Martin. The fact he straddled Zimmerman instead of taking that opportunity to get away just seals Martin’s culpability

    You really think Martin couldn’t have approached from the rear flank just because later they were facing each other? Zimmeran would have turned around as soon as he realized someone was behind him just like anyone would…He easily could have turned around only to be greeted with a decking punch to the face

  217. I prefer my scenario which is FAR more consistent with the KNOWN propensities of both persons. I think that Z caught up with Martin, grabbed him by the arm, and turned him around trying to apprehend him. Martin swung around, and hit Zimmerman who then fell or was pushed backwards. At which point Martin got on top and was trying to hit Z. He was not very successful unfortunately for him, since Zimmerman was able to fend off the blows, and have enough time or Martin paused, and Z got his gun and fired and killed him.

    Since Zimmerman has a record of violence even to a cop, and worked as a bouncer, I think my scenario is more likely. Martin had NO such record of violence or aggression as Zimmerman did.

  218. a.r. erb
    there are many unreasonable people on here. but i swear, you might be the worst. now the twitter site was hacked. i don’t know where the f your from but my suggestion to you wouild be to stay behind your computer and locked doors. otherwise, make sure you pack a weapon. besides your mouth. you refuse to look at any other evidence that might be of any proof of what happened that night. i see the goose egg on z. why the hell can;t you? you choose not to that’s why. and the sites i go to are known to lie. i doubt you’ve ever been in good ole fashioned fight your whole life. i’ve met ppl like you and i put them in there place right quick. problem is, you don’t have the sense to know how ridiculous you come across. your a nasty old man that is filled with hate. you are so ridiculously stupid that you think a dr.whether know to z or not, is going to alter a report in a federal case, lie on the stand, issue false medical reports so he can later be caught and loose his license. he did approach z form the rear in my opinion, those are lacerations on; his head. usually meaning cut or hit with an object. he was treated at the scene, and it was still bleeding that much. how long does it have to bleed for you to satisfied. he does have a broken nose, that’s been proven to everyone but you. and a few others that wont listen to reason. if the cel ph recording is that states star witness, never mind, what i was about to say would be way over your head. a word to anyone that tries to talk about what really happeend that night, that we know for sure, which is very little, you can’t get across here. it was either a conspiracy or a lie. nothing other then z. dying that night would get them to consider any other options. who the f knows, maybe they have crystal balls. i know for damn sure there not brass ones. and manny o. you’ve got more sense then anyone on here.

  219. I see ts wife is not too swift.
    those are lacerations on; his head. usually meaning cut or hit with an object. he was treated at the scene, and it was still bleeding that much. how long does it have to bleed for you to satisfied. he does have a broken nose,

    I have stated Z got those from hitting his head on the concrete as he fell backwards. That he has not got a goose egg where he hit shows he did NOT hit head first, but probably as his back hit first. Then his head. The object that hit his head was the ground, and since Martin had nothing but a can of tea, he did not hit him with that since those cans are not what I or any person would use as a weapon. A beer bottle definitely, but a can, not a chance. You also fail mention why those cuts did NOT have even a BAND Aaid on it. Sure could not have been bleeding very much for the paramedics to not do that much. There was NO blood on the front of Zimmermans face in the mugshots either, nor was there any blood on the front of his shirt. So the nose did NOT bleed very much either.

    i see that you are overly emotional and immiature since most of your post is devoted to slurs and raise very few salient points. Try answering the question as to why no band aid for Zs head, why no blood on the front of his shirt from his “broken” nose. I never said the doctors would lie, I simply said that in order to establish PROOF of a broken nose virtually ALL doctors I have seen for broken bones REQUIRE an xray to definitely establish what they suspect. Absent such xrays, all that they have is opinion, NOT fact.

  220. Hey Top Shot, I don’t have to PROVE that George Zimmerman was in a compromised mental state, since I have every right to say it, and if he doesn’t like that he is free to sue me for libel or slander, but I don’t mind displaying for you the pieces of news that gave me that idea:

    1. Frank Taafe said that Zimmerman was “fed up” and had “anger management” problems;

    2. Joe Oliver said that Zimmerman confided in him, but never told him anything about the conflict that he apparently had with the girlfriend who took out a protective order against him (and against whom he then took out a “back at you” protective order the following day);

    3. Zimmerman told the cops, on the phone, that he saw a suspicious guy, but his list of suspicions was pretty lame;

    4. Zimmerman said, “These assholes always get away”;

    5. Zimmerman was apparently the less successful brother in his family and did not have a college degree;

    6. Zimmerman had been in trouble with the law in 2005 but now wanted to be in law enforcement and probably wouldn’t be accepted;

    7. Zimmerman was very eager to CATCH someone and be thought of as a hero.

    See? No proof, just good facts from which to deduce things. And I think it’s a pretty sound deduction. It might be that defense counsel would one day be EAGER to say that Zimmerman was in an impaired mental state on 2/26/2012 — NCR — “not criminally responsible.”

    We shall see. meanwhile I intend to keep saying things I can’t prove.

  221. Top shots wife: People don’t HAVE to listen to your husband’s “reason”; in fact, even if they DO listen to him they don’t have to think his opinions are reasonable.

    I’ll send you some apostrophes when I have a few to spare.

  222. top shots wife. your posts would be better without the name calling and insults.

    ARE, yes, some very good points there.

    Prescription drugs are all dangerous, especially the sleeping pills these days.

  223. BTW, without an x-ray, you cannot justify insurance coverage for any fracture. You can say “Rule out” a fracture and then an x-ray is called for.

  224. oh yeah. i have had my nose broken, twice actually, due to physical abuse, my black eyes didn’t;t come for two days. the swelling started later on the next morning, one eye swelled completely shut. from a punch the night before.manny o . fact is, body punches make great mma hits. don’t leave a bruise if you know what your doing. manny o. didn’t they tell you that z. inflicted those wounds on hisself? that he and the police conspired together to come up with a story? don’t know if the prosecutor was in on that one or not. you know, the first prosecutor that said there was no evidence to charge z. the photos of z injuries have been doctored, probably with photoshop. that eye witnesses were either coerced or are outright lying. the dr.’s medical reports were made up, even the one where the dr. wanted z. to see an ear, nose throat dr. there were two gunshots. and now m. twitter page was hacked. m. actually looked like the pic they showed on tv for a month. he was almost a ft. shorter then z. not the other way around, (m. being almost a ft. taller then z.} he was just a little scrawny 12 yr. old kid. an honor student. having any kind of foreign substance in his urine of blood test didn;t mean he was effected in any way. did i mention that those wounds were inflicted on himself before the cops got there. app three min. martin didn;t attack the bus driver, the b.d. attacked him. it wasn’t his stolen diamonds and gold that was in his back pack, someone gave them to him. zimm. keys weren’t found laying on the ground. like he had pulled them out of his pocket while on his way to the car. and after loosing z. martin went home since he was standing almost in his front door. the fbi can’t say for sure whose voice is on the recording, but everyone on here can tell you it was zimm. he was a racist, even though when disp. asked him the color of the suspicious man, z. said he didn;t know. z. had great tracking skills, that’s how m lost track of m. instead of being a scared little boy, and running home after he knocked z. down, he held z. down till the law dawgs could get there. just a few FACTS that’s been posted here. looking forward to your reply. and make sure you read some of the replies i will get.

  225. TS wife, How about answering simple questions. I did not refernce black eyes since it takes time for those to develop. How about the swelling that DOES happen fairly quickly? From the photos, there is NO swelling on his head, around his eyes, anywhere on his face, no split lip, no broken or loose teeth, no blood on his front even from his “broken” nose, and these are simple things. Not only that but the wounds on his head have not even a BAND aid! Those head wounds sure weren’t that bad. Did Z EVER put a band aid on those head wounds? I doubt it. Let’s get real.

  226. Where are the photos of George with 2 shiners?

    Lets see those black eyes that can be a sign of a broken nose.

  227. Mrs. Top Shot, you said “nothing other then z. dying that night would get them to consider any other options.”

    Now, Mrs. TS, that’s just not true, you hear? I’d consider, for instance, the following other options:

    1. Zimmerman went to the store, bought the groceries he needed, and returned home, and Trayvon Martin bought his skittles and iced tea, talked to his girlfriend, and went home too.

    2. Zimmerman saw and reported Trayvon Martin to the police, and then stayed in his car so when the police came they could locate him, so he could give them all the information he had, and then they took his report, checked the place out, determined that there was no crime taking place, interviewed (if they found) or didn’t interview (if he had already returned home) Trayvon Martin, and then returned to the station house.

    3. Zimmerman saw and reported Trayvon Martin to the police, and then got out to follow Trayvon Martin, but when he was told, “We don’t need you to do that,” he answerd honestly, “But guys, you always let these assholes get away,” whereupon the police told him: “YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO ROUST ANYBODY; STAND DOWN” and he did.

    4. Zimmerman saw and reported Trayvon Martin, got out to follow him, caught up with him, had a confrontation with him, shot him dead, got apprehended by the police, got taken down to the station house, got booked for manslaughter or homicide of one or another form, and went through the process that people go through when they are suspects in a crime that resulted in a death go through.

    and there are an infinite number of other “options” I would consider for that evening. The option I do not consider appropriate is the one that occurred. I don’t care of you, your extended family, Bill O’Reilly and Fox News, Geraldo, Rumplestiltskin and all the Harvard Law Professors all glued together in one big Harvard Law Professor disagree.

  228. ARE, when I broke my nose, the front of my shirt was saturated with blood. And it was the same kind of fracture Georges doctor is claiming to diagnose with no x-rays.

  229. Sorry about your nose, and I have had the same experience too. So if Zimmerman’s nose were broken, WHERE IS ALL THAT BLOOD? All I ever saw was a trickle, and his shirt had no blood that I could see when they took the photos. So he has no swelling, no cuts, split lip, no goose egg on his head on the scratches, in short, he has NO injuries consistent with life threatening combat or even close to it. As I said, I look worse after running after my dogs in the woods.

  230. Arthur – Get a grip…you are missing the forest for the trees. You call someone out as posting BS and then when shown your error through several links to reports you just can’t leave it alone. The whole point of what I guess I will call the “mma” point is that martin was in fact straddling him and beating him up, not the flavor of fighting used, but feel free to glom onto an insignifant detail when the main point as been entirely overturned, but most wont listen any further.

    The paramedics cleaned/addressed his wounds. bandaids or no bandaids, it takes a significant amount of force to split a head open in two different places. one was a 1 inch laceration. Head injuries are ALWAYS serious, period. Just look it up. The amount of blood or persistence of bleeding is in now way a reliable measure of seriousness, but to an amateur i can understand how they might think that…without looking/researching any further

    So now you doubt the medical report or the competence of the Dr issuing it? They are all in cahoots with the bad ole police and all those other bad ole people that aren’t zimmerman accusers ehh? Obviously you are out of gas and grasping at straws here…

    now to answer your just posted questions then Im done with this nonsense
    He has cuts (picture link posted previously)
    He has swelling(see b/w picture posted of broken nose)
    He has abrasions( see picture link posted previously)
    Broken teeth/split-swollen lip? Is that a requirement for it be a real “beating”? According to who? Just because he may not have taken hits directly to the mouth doesn’t mean the rest of his head wasn’t beaten as the pictures clearly show. And by the way anyone who knows fighting knows that hitting in the mouth is a bad idea as the teeth can tear up your fists and lodge bacteria in the hands of the one throwing blows causing terrible infection. But if you got beat up by an idiot I can see how they might have hit you in the mouth not knowing any better

    He has plenty of indications of being beat…and you know what else?

    Martin only had abrasions/scratchs on his knuckles…because he was beating Zimmerman. He was the one with no scratch on him aside from what he gave his own knuckes while viciously beating zimmerman in a pinned state.

    Thats it, for your ‘points’. Please spare us the conspiracy theory filler it just undermines your credibility/seriousness

  231. Manny O, then when shown your error through several links to reports you just can’t leave it alone.

    The reason I will not leave the report linked alone is that the one who posted is was WRONG in what it said.

    I am glad to see that you are dropping the MMA thing since I PROVED it was the COP who said that and that is was impossible to see such a thing and you cannot tell anybody else what a MMA hit is.

    I see that you have not been in a fist fight. I never knew that I should be able to call my shots so well. Let me see, this blow should be to the right eye, and the next one will be to the nose, etc..In fact most of my swings MISSED! in fact, even professional boxers miss most of their shots too or have them blocked. If Martin had made a solid hit anywhere on Zimmerman’s head, it would have showed up on his face in SOME way. The only way to avoid that is if a small child is doing the hitting. Martin was a LONG way from that. In fact, Zimmerman blocked all of Martin’s hits which is why he is virtually unmarked except for the first nose hit.

    Then we have an even more pressing question which is in the flurry of blows, how was Zimmerman able to get his gun out without getting hit by Martin? I guess Z was simply using one arm, or Martin had stopped. If Martin had kept up thowing punches. Zimmerman would have gotten a hit on his face that would show up, or Martin was incredibly inept and Z could defend himself with one arm. Try answering that question.

  232. Thank you for the comma offer but typos are just a fact, A FACT of life. And I’m not too swift erb, Now come on, you can do better then that. That’s another judgement call by you, which you can not possibly discern . I would however, like to know where I might find substance to the statement you made that Z. was a bouncer. I find that interesting and something I didn’t know. It would seem that he would have been better at defending himself with that previous employment experience. Of course, M would have been a worthy opponent for most anyone. I’m just stating that no one knows the severity, or lack thereof, of Z injuries. I can not imagine any physician stating on record, a legal document in any situation, that Z. nose was broken when in all reality it can be proved otherwise. Especially knowing that it will be scrutinized to the nth during a trial with a murder 2 charge. In good conscience, I can not agree with anyone that this was a racial homicide. Finding him guilty is one thing, but accusing Z. of a race killing is as unjust as a wrongful conviction. I, like most everyone, accused, cursed, swore the woman had killed her child. I watched the trial, and with utter disbelief, realized that my judgement came from any and everything but the actual facts. The real shame of that case came after the verdict. That the public outrage caused the jurors to live in fear. And I never understood why the public wasn’t celebrating the fact that the system actually worked. That they weren’t swayed in any way by outside influence. Did I think she was guilty? Yes I did and I still do. The state didn’t prove there case and the jury took there jobs seriously and only ruled on the evidence. To me, that jury should have been commended, instead they were afraid for there lives.

  233. Sorry TS wife, I don’t have the source on the bouncer job, but it was reported in many media outlets along with Zimmerman’s arrest for assaulting a cop which was plead down for a plea deal. That shows a propensity for violence in my view. In all my wild days, I never tried or even thought of hitting a cop. I Knew better since my ass would have been really whipped BAD. I would NOT look as good as Zimmerman did by a long shot.

    I just heard Martin’s girl friend telling a cop what she heard. She stated that she heard a voice ask “What are you doing here?” and repeat it. I did not hear her statement on Martins reply if there was one. Then she heard Martin say “GET OFF” a couple of times, then the phone went dead. That gives me a better idea of what happened.

    Zimmerman confronted Martin aggressively, Martin did not respond or turned away, Zimmerman grabbed his arm to keep him there, Martin said get off. Then when Zimmerman did not let go, spun, hit Zimmerman and pushed him down. He then got on top and tried to hit Zimmerman a number of times. I don’t know if he stopped, or if Zimmerman could ward off the multiple blows with one arm. In any case, Z got an arm free, to get his gun, and shot Martin. That scenario agrees with all the facts in evidence now. There may be more surprises or new evidence coming out later, but for now, that is my take on this.

  234. Mr. Erb
    The only information I have is that Z got into an altercation with two plain clothes policemen. He stated that he didn’t realize at the time that they were cops because of the plain clothes. It was stated that he was helping a friend. Whether any of this is true or not I have no idea. Are there other altercations with authorities that I haven’t read about yet?
    thank you

  235. No Manny, we just wish he had gone to the ER to get an objective report, a drug test and an x-ray for that broken nose..

  236. No one is accusing Z of a ‘race killing’ here.

    Martin had ONE cut on his left ring finger that was 1/4 inch long.

  237. Arthur – Not sure whats more shocking and astounding…the questions you pose as if there is no other explanation or the vehemence with which you write them. As far as “try an answer that one” you might as well ask how someone can eat a PB&J when two different ingredients are required. The question shows your lack of imagination, at best, and to answer it is pointless at is it is to ask it. Sorry, but done with your posts, there are plenty of other posters on this thread that make more sense to discuss real points with. You berated TopShotsWife for being immature, but your behavior and accusations are what screams immaturity and inexperience

  238. Strange thing: Autopsy report says the bullet went in at NO ANGLE and at “Intermediate” range. Yet headlines say “close range.” What’s that about?

    I purchased the criminal court records on Zimmerman but haven’t read them yet, will report back.

    I’m not betting it makes sense to assume Zimmerman shot Martin from underneath him; the bullet went in at NO angle, straight in. Zimmerman’s arm, straight out, would be heart-level in Martin’s chest.

  239. Malisha, I keep trying to square this with the Trayvon on top, Zimmerman on bottom. I have human figure drawing in my background.

    So, do you get a straight line if Martin is hunched over GZ while he is sitting on him? Not really, I think Trayvons torso is too long for that to work…..there are not many positions where you get a direct line from Georges hand through Martins heart.

  240. The criminal court papers and the restraining orders are practically information free. In my experience, this only happens when the person’s lawyer makes all the arrangements and therefore, nothing appears in the file. “It happened; it unhappened; here’s the number of its temporary happening; good-bye” is the general tone of the thing.

    In 2010 a two-month-old baby in foster care was negligently killed (so far as we know) in Delaware. The person responsible was charged with “endangerment.” Her lawyer worked it out so that she didn’t even have to enter the PLEA in open court; all done in chambers. She did not elocute. Nothing was recorded in the file. She got a year’s inactive probation. No victim impact statement. No pre-sentence report as required by law. A stone dropped in the water. She was advised to be careful and not to drink alcohol for the year she was on probation. She was pregnant at the time of her sentencing. She was not monitored for competency to have sole care, custody and control of that baby, either.

    Criminal justice system, anyone?

  241. Shano, they don’t work. Like the first “mark” on the right upper area of Zimmerman’s head (crown) on the police booking video didn’t work. Like the “ambush on the way back to the vehicle” doesn’t work. The distance was not “close range” but “intermediate.” The angle was “straight in” rather than up OR down. I think the inhuman screams we heard on the schoolteacher’s 911 call were Martin pleading with the shooter NOT TO SHOOT when the gun was visible, right in front of his face, and Zimmerman’s face was out of control with rage. No proof, but it makes more sense with the physical evidence than the story (even after it was changed three times) offered by the apologists. We’d need a good stunt man working with a ballistics expert and a talented biomedical physicist to iron it out.

  242. Shano, furthermore, if Martin is shot THROUGH THE HEART while Zimmerman is under him, no way there are a few drops of splatter blood on Zimmerman’s clothes; Zimmerman is FLOODED with Martin’s blood.

    AND he has to throw the body OFF him and onto the ground and push it over face down to have it where the police find it. I don’t think it can be worked out. I can envision a couple of jointed figurines to work out the various physical possibilities — surely the prosecution can show that the various scenarios suggested by Zimmerman won’t work but that’s not really important unless O’Mara wants to risk putting him up as a witness.

    I am fascinated by it, though. We have Zimmerman’s imagination about what Martin did compounded by Zimmerman’s overactive imagination about what he himself did (Can you imagine anyone saying to the police as he is being cuffed, having killed someone, “I was calling for help but nobody would help me”?) (Can you imagine “You got me”?) (etc.)

    In one way I would hate to contribute to a NCR plea, but on the other hand… some of this stuff doesn’t sound very sane to me.

  243. ARE, you can chase your dogs through the woods, but if you catch them, they’re allowed to stand their ground. (Talkindog, back me up here.)

  244. I catch them all the time, but only after they have worn me out. They think it is a great game to see who can run the farthest and they prove that every time. The game of chase is only good as long as somebody is chasing you.

  245. Anybody hear the interview of the guy who worked with Zimmerman in 2008 and described him as a bully? The interesting thing in that interview, to me, came toward the end. George Zimmerman was ultimately fired, it seems, for calling HR over and over and over with his pestiferous complaints about everybody and everything. He was an attention-getter and he got attention by complaining about the conduct of those around him, with bogus complaints, and he made it impossible for people to just get along and do their jobs. The interesting thing is that he bullied the fellow he worked with because he was Middle Eastern, but the guy thought that Zimmerman would just bully whomever he could “target” — and that is a very interesting thought. Whomever he could “target.”

  246. shano
    i hate to see you go. but i think we’ll go with you. name calling and such is not my style but i’ve lowered myself to that point on here. i’m going to find out where z. was a bouncer at. and i want to know if there were x rays done. no matter how valid your statement, it will be of no difference here. i read m. had his hands over both z. nose and mouth. add to that being straddled by him. and h’es a big man, just look at the video, i can’t imagine z. was able to breathe. if anything, m. should have gotten off and ran, that’s what i would have done.that is if i were scared and not wanting to beat the shit out of someone. that’s another way it could have been avoided. but no matter. z. has been judged and found guilty here. and if you want any info about z. check out the reuters inv. that was done on him .maybe they will do one on m. hubby says to judge any injury, especially a head injury just by looks is totally stupid. i’m sure there was an x ray done at one time. he also says hitting someone in the mouth is stupid, hit where you can do some damage, not just where it will show the most. that’s one area he knows about. mma is damaging and not bad to show a large amount of visible proof. the interview heard someone bump trayvon, then she heard the grass. how did she hear the wet grass and how does she know it was m. that was bumped. i want to see O’mara’s cross on that one. I thought that phone call would be something conclusive maybe. not so. it adds more doubt then anything.

  247. RE: Alcohol vs. Marijuana (neither of which is relevant to what Trayvon Martin allegedly did as he was trying to avoid being murdered):

    My son went to University of Virginia. He came from a fairly “sheltered” background and had not seen much violence except on TV or in the movies (and I screened for violence in movies and so forth but his father did not, so I’d say his exposure was average for late 1990s when he started college and went off to live on his own).

    He went to a party and there was a lot of drinking there and a guy started “beating up his girlfriend” and Danny and three of his friends intervened and pulled the guy off a couple of times. But the guy started up again and this time the girl was screaming and being seriously hurt and Danny and his buddies restrained the attacker, phoned 911, and were (idiotically!) told to bring the guy in THEMSELVES (to the ER, not to the police station) because the cops were too busy with other drunken parties right then to send someone. Danny and the others forced the guy into the car and drove him to the ER, where he proceeded to destroy a crash cart and threaten two hospital employees until he was restrained and sedated. Danny waited for the police to show up and he and his friends gave witness statements and waited around to see what would happen and whether they would need to drive the guy back home.

    An officer started a friendly conversation with my son about his experience, because my son was totally amazed, shocked, horrified, etc., not only about the guy’s behavior but also abut the police response. The cop told him: “I wish the kids would go back to smoking pot around here. The campus was so mellow back then; we never had these kinds of things. We’d play board games on Saturday nights because the kids were all sitting around getting high and playing music! Now that they’re drinking, we have the jails full, the hospital E.R. full, the kids falling down stairs and breaking their damn necks, it’s just ridiculous.”

  248. TS Wife: “name calling and such is not my style but i’ve lowered myself to that point on here.”

    So it’s the fault of the Turley blog that you have had to lower yourself? “It’s the blog speaking?”

    Well maybe there’s a lesson in that. Maybe physical self-defense was not Trayvon Martin’s style but he had to lower himself to that when he was in Twin Oaks on 2/26/2012. Some of us get choice, others have to lower ourselves based on the environmental factors presented.

  249. The point about marijuana is that in people it can certainly cause paranoia (is someone watching me? do they know I am high/doing something I shouldnt?, etc) not just when high but for habitual chronic users it can make them paranoid even when not immediately high as long term use affects brain chemistry. Its common enough that people on this board have self-reported themselves becoming paranoid from its use so its not just some infinitesimally small percentage that have that reaction so we can’t just sweep it under the rug. The paranoia is what can become dangerous, just like with alcohol except in the case of alchohol it lowers the social inhibitions and indirectly results in amplifying whatever you already were (a mean person/drunk or a lovey-dovey person/drunk).
    Take someone who is already a loose cannon, full of hormones, angry/unstable, add in some fear/paranoia and watch the fireworks

    Another factor noone has mentioned is the types of marijuana, there’s sativa which acts as a stimulant and appetite increaser (cancer patients take this for energy to get our of bed) and there is indica which acts as a downer and decreases your appetite. The sativa is far more popular these days and that is what gives people the “munchies”. Indica is what mellows someone out and makes them veg…but both can still cause extreme paranoia

    keep in mind im not talking about urine or hair follicle test here…those can detect thc months after the intoxication. Blood is totally different

    Whenever there is any non-zero trace of THC in the blood found at X point in time it specifically indicates 1 of two possibilities:
    1) the person was high at some point within the last 0-4 hours from when the test was done and is possibly a somewhat casual user (not an every day user)
    2) the person had to be high multiple times within the last 24 hours (but not necessarily the last 4 hours however they are definitely a chronic longterm multiple time a day user

    Either way its bad news if its found in your blood and implicates very recent intoxication whereas urine/hair doesnt really provide any reasonably time-limited implication of intoxication

  250. we were out cruising one night and she was driving. she turns on her blinker, turns on a side street, stops, puts it in park. after about 10 min. of just sitting there, i was in no pain either, i finally said, why are we sitting here. she said, didn’t you see the cop turn his cherries on. long story short. she looked in her rear view mirror, saw brake lights from a car we had just met. and thought she was being pulled over by the cops. you can’t drive over 20 mph. she starts screaming, crying, telling you to slow down or let her out. needless to say, she hasn’t smoked in a while. her sister was the same way. just one more thing, she sat and listened attentively to the radio one night, which would have been perfectly normal, had the radio been playing something besides static. for over two hours she listened to static on the radio. that marijuana paranoia.

  251. Manny O, it would be OK to attribute Trayvon Martin’s probable suspicion that Zimmerman was “up to no good” to “paranoia” if, and only if, that were not in fact the case. Very obviously, that WAS in fact the case. He did not imagine that Zimmerman was spotting him and “marking” him while he was in the car; he told the police he spotted a “suspicious looking” guy. He did not imagine that Zimmerman got out of the car and followed him; in fact, Zimmerman got OUT of the car and followed him; He did not imagine that there was something not OK about what Zimmerman was doing. All rational police and all rational neighborhood watch people agree that he should not have followed Martin and that he especially should not have carried a loaded gun and followed Martin. Nothing about what Martin thought about Zimmerman was paranoid; it was all correct.

    Should Martin have thought himself in danger?

    Damn right; four minutes later he was dead. That was pretty dangerous!

    Nothing about Martin’s reactions of that night is attributable to marijuana or THC; everything about that night is attributable to Zimmerman and his completely unwarranted, unreasonable, inappropriate, paranoid (HE thought Trayvon Martin was a criminal when he had no reason to think that) and homicidal conduct.

  252. Can Martin do no wrong in spite of the data that has come forth on the nature of who he really was?

    Its just hard to believe he was wearing his halo that night while wandering the complex looking at various houses when his own school reported the stolen womens jewlery with no reasonable explanation:

    And Trayvon Martin’s own twitter account (@NO_LIMIT_NIGxA) has him self-reporting on Feb 21 that he “swung on the bus driver” as his buddies are “amazed”. Did the bus driver look/say something wrong to him to “deserve” that as so many imply with Zimmerman “deserving” to be attacked just a few nights later?

    Then there is the popularize facebook posting on Feb 5 where his buddy asks “Trayvon Slimm Martin”
    Martin buddy:Yeoo happy birthday! but pik up the fone or hmu we got business to talk!
    Martin: NO PHON
    Martin buddy: damn where you at nigxa needa plant

    this all goes to Martin’s recent character…not something he did years prior, but literally days prior.

  253. manny o
    My wife was the one that made the statement about mj making her paranoid. It’s totally true. She was never a big smoker and doesn’t smoke anything now, but I have to tell you, we had some laughs at her expense. Thanks for talking civil to me, I have offended others and I’ve been called, accused of just about everything. I was even called the village idiot. They are so ignorant they believe each and every post is directed towards them personally and that I’m a hater and a racist. Don’t they realize lawyers of every ilk pay certain ppl big money to blog. It’s a great investigative tool for the whole firm. I was just wondering what your opinion was of the girlfriends deposition. Did you conclude what might be ANY factual evidence from it?.

  254. Malisha – Why do you assume that Zimmerman followed Martin when you can’t produce a cite of a witness report or police report or video or anything…and whats worse there is even contrary evidence of Zimmerman verbally agreeing to not follow him on the 911 call?

    Your entire previous post is based on this unproven uncitable premise. I know you are reasonable, but why do you continue to assume this is an incontrovertible fact in light of literally zero citable data beyond others equally as baseless impassioned opinions?

  255. Well, Manny, there was an incident I remember from long ago and far away (but the wench is not dead): I remember that an authority figure once (now if you ask me who the authority figure was, I have to admit with great shamefaced disappointment that I cannot remember exactly which authority figure it was) told someone not to do something, and that person who was told (can’t remember who he or she was either, but I KNOW there was a person, I just KNOW it, because it was such an astonishingly unusual occurrence that I would not have ever forgotten it) said, “OK” but was not UNDER OATH when he or she said it, and guess what?

    MANNY, you’re NOT going to believe this but I swear on a stack of court papers that it’s true:

    The person did not follow orders, even after saying “OK.”

    Now, I’m not saying that’s what happened with Zimmerman and the folks on the cop call — oh WAIT A MINUTE, YES I AM! Oh, yeah, I am.

    Oh, so it comes down to this:

    I cite, for the proposition that “George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin,” the following two citations:

    1. I am intelligent. It stands to reason that if a guy was following another guy, and WANTED to follow him, and had a MOTIVE for following him, and then the distance between the two guys decreased, and the following guy and the followed guy ended up in very close contact, that the following guy actually continued following the followed guy until he was in very close contact with him. Add to that logical supposition that I made the following (ha ha ha pun intended) corroborative evidence: Girlfriend says Trayvon Martin told her a creepy crazy guy was following him, but he lost him, but then he showed up again. So that’s citation number 1.

    2. I believe Zimmerman not only had a motive to lie about what happened on 2/26/2012 but that he DID lie about what happened on 2/26/2012, and because he did not realize that anybody else would have phone records or other records to challenge his lie, he wasn’t terribly careful about how he set it up. I believe the story that Zimmerman STOPPED following Martin, but that Martin thereafter chose to go follow Zimmerman, confront him, threaten him, attack him, put him in fear for his life, and all those overdramatized boo-hoo-poor-me etceteras? — were LIES. See? I trust MY judgment more than I trust Zimmerman’s veracity. SEE? That’s how I arrived at my conclusions.

    There are my citations.

    Citation 1 – my intelligence and my ability to draw conclusions from data.
    Citation 2 – Zimmerman’s reputation for honesty and his motive to lie. Oh, and citation 3? His story doesn’t work.

  256. The girlfriends deposition made a number of assumptions initially regarding her seeming amazing ability to not only identify a supposed “push” but identify who issued the supposed push over a phone audio call. Its simply not possible to know such things, but that didn’t stop her from choosing to declare the interpretation as fact that was most helpful for her boyfriends side of the case. But now I understand the statement is evolving and changing in the wake of this goat rodeo of a case. So most likely it will have an equal amount of credence as zimmermans statement for his own defense or possibly a lot less since zimmerman was actually there, though both are obviously not dispassionate witnesses

  257. Manny O: “Can Martin do no wrong in spite of the data that has come forth on the nature of who he really was?”

    Yes, Manny O, Martin can DO NO WRONG in spite of what you call “the data that has come forth on the nature of who he really was.”

    Because in fact he DID no wrong.
    He did not rob Zimmerman.
    He did not burglarize any homes in the community.
    He did not commit any crime.
    He was not in the process of committing any crime.
    He was not living in a state of criminality.
    He was not on parole or probation or violating any such condition.
    He was not outside of his Constitutional rights in any way, shape or form.
    Yes, Manny, since UP UNTIL THE TIME OF HIS DEATH he did no wrong, and since he can no longer do anything, right OR wrong, thanks to the wrong that Zimmerman did TO HIM,

    Trayvon Martin can do no wrong.

    Perhaps next time Zimmerman decides to kill somebody, he should pick someone who HAS done some wrong so people won’t be so worked up about it, but this time, he picked someone he should not have picked.

  258. The girlfriend didn’t kill anybody and didn’t commit any act that got charged as a crime so she has nothing to hide.

    She also didn’t call the police that night offering her version of what happened or reporting Zimmerman’s behavior so she obviously wasn’t trying to push her story on anyone, as Zimmerman was.

    The girlfriend didn’t even get interviewed until Martin’s father identified who had been talking to his son at the time of his murder.

    Furthermore, her story sounds quite rational and she didn’t make anything up or go too far, which to me, gives her great credibility.

    The most important piece of this is: When Zimmerman did not know that there was a phone call memorialization of any part of the events of that evening, when he thought it was just him and the cops to go along with the story he was telling, he told a story that doesn’t hold water at all; only after the phone call evidence came into play did he start concentrating attention on his bonked head and his “broken” nose and etc. Where did the “street sign return to car ambushed you got a problem you’re gonna die homie” story go? Went somewhere…

  259. Malisha – Well, I won’t deny your asserted intelligence, but even though you wrote the word Citation and numbered them its still an opinion versus a statement or report or audio/video recording, of course you know that, but thanks for that still. I already know that there is not citable incontrovertible data/report for Zimmerman to have produced a confrontation with Martin and so do you or I’d be looking at an http link in your post ; )

    Sure, the distance decreased and you are convinced it was Zimmerman who did it. I am convinced it was Martin. I base my conviction on the citable reports that build a telling picture of Martin’s character. Martin was the one that furnished all the blows per the autopsy. Martin was the one that swung at a bus driver that same month. Martin was the one with an inexplicable trove of womens jewlery in his bag, Martin was the one that fit the description of the perpetrators of burglary/robbery in that community, and the list goes on. These weren’t things that Martin did 5 years ago, they were that SAME month.

    I admit that neither of us know or can cite data that proves Zimmerman or Martin produced the confrontation, but the recent character expression of Martin is what leads me to believe he was the producer of the confrontation. I can see how someone like Martin could have been emboldened by his recent swing at the bus driver and wanted to teach this guy who had the nerve to “stare at him” a lesson in respect. Martin even self reported “F the haters, I will kill em all”. 2+2=4

    Anyway, what actually gets me is the people that insists on ‘declaring the pseudofact” that “we know” zimmerman produced confrontation with Martin” Thats just a foul

    Its simply not known and not a fact

    but yes people on both sides (like us) can present opinions that lead us to what we see as the probably reality of what just happened

    Was just hoping you would admit that Zimmerman producing a confrontation with martin is anything but an incontrovertible fact. Though you may think he did in your opinion

    For contrast…An incontrovertible fact is that Zimmerman shot Martin

  260. Manny: Everything you just said about Trayvon is a “psuedofact”.

    George was breaking the rules of NW that night. He told a lie to the dispatcher and continued to follow Martin. Yes, Zimmerman Killed this boy for no good reason at all.
    His family will never be the same. They will never get over this ridiculous, rash and impulsive act of George Zimmerman. He changed their lives forever. And for WHAT?

    Maybe Trayvon saved society from having to constantly put up with George Zimmerman in the role of a certified policeman. I hope that holds true.

  261. I got those criminal records from the courthouse in Orange County, FL for $31 and if I knew how to post them here I would, but I don’t know how. They don’t say much. From reports, the plain-clothes officers were ATF agents who were arresting Zimmerman’s friend for serving alcohol to underage customers in his bar. Zimmerman reportedly got worked up over his friend being arrested and physically “interfered with” Agent Paul Fleischman, who then arrested him for felony assault on officer and resisting arrest I think. There is no clear record of whether his diversion was alcohol-abuse related or anger-management related. Hard to tell, conflicting reports.

    Southernbelle, most of the altercations Zimmerman got into in the past seem to be altercations with “subordinates,” not with authorities. He seems to pick on those who are either weaker than him or those he perceives as weaker than he is. A new employee in a place where he had worked for a few months described this very well in a 15-minute interview that is available on-line. He’s apparently just a bully; they don’t usually try to bully people with more authority, only those with less.

    Manny O, with the same data (George says he’s following Martin, cop tells him not to, he says OK, then the two of them end up in a confrontation and Martin ends up dead) have drawn two conclusions. I think yours goes way way way farther away from the logical and known facts and assumptions than mine, and the only thing to recommend yours over mine is that George Zimmerman also prefers yours. You have no citations to show that Martin followed and attacked Zimmerman and I think the conclusion is unsupportable. So there we are. If it comes down to a bunch of people testifying at a trial about whether Zimmerman is 100% honest or not when he’s in trouble, and about whether he’s the kind of a guy who would always back down if he was told that authorities didn’t NEED him to do what he wanted to do, I think the “nays” would have that too. And finally, if it down to a dual of personalities, as in “which of the two, Zimmerman or Martin, was more like a thug, and which was more like a fine upstanding citizen who accidentally killed someone?” Zimmerman’s high school records might have to be opened up to see if there are any skeletons in HIS backpack.

  262. Shano – some of things were self-reported by martin. That makes it fact, just like Zimmerman self-reporting he shot Martin, makes it a fact.

    The school reported the womens jewlery, but okay, sure…maybe he bought it all legally or just “found it”, you are right..that’s still circumstantial technically

  263. Nothing about a crime committed on 2/26/2012 was ever self-reported by Martin. Nothing about prior conduct of either shooter or victim would be relevant to the events of the shooting. Remember, Zimmerman wasn’t killing Martin because he had discovered that Martin needed to be shot; he was killing him because he was suspicious and wanted to catch a burglar who had no business in the neighborhood.

    If you have a rape case with a 17-year-old victim, and the cops FIRST refuse to arrest the rapist (who admits to having sex with the girl but says he had to do it because she seduced him) and then conveniently “leak” out some high school records indicating that she might have had marijuana at some point and that she might have had somebody else’s jewelry at another point, you don’t start justifying the crime because of the girl’s character! The whole thing is not just ridiculous, it’s actually disgraceful. Martin did nothing wrong that night, period. He was minding his own business and somebody shot him. Zimmerman said he had to do it but that’s his affirmative defense and if he chooses to try to make it, he will have to do so in court and face the music if it doesn’t fly.

  264. So Top Shot, if someone had killed you within four days of that experience you had in the car when you “were feeling no pain either,” would that have been OK?

  265. It took me a minute to figure out what you meant. I didn’t understand because it was just an anecdote for mannyo. I wasn’t even thinking about Martin. or anything else for that matter. I just thought manny o would get a smile out of that. Hell, she does.

  266. top shot, do you have any young people in your life? Because you are mistaking style for substance. I have been so curious about why there is so much discrimination in this case. I guess these people do not have any youngsters in their lives.
    My 18 year old nephew (mostly white kid) has all the same fb picture poses and uses the same language that Trayvon used. He has some tatoos, very on trend now for young people. (in the old days only sailors had tatoos)

    I have a sneaking suspicion that he has smoked marijuana, yes, he has definitely smoked marijuana with his friends.

    . Nevertheless, he is not a “thug”. He is going to school to be a chef. I just wish he would pull up his pants.

  267. Would the suggestion that both used bad judgement that night be a horrible thing to say? Not saying the killing was justified. please know that.

  268. Malisha
    Good night Malisha. Confrontation still makes me nervous. I know that sounds crazy but it’s true. I’m not as brave as I once was.
    God Bless All

  269. SouthernBelle, I personally can’t get to the point where I would say “both used bad judgment that night.” Would it be a horrible thing to say? Perhaps it would be horrible to say it to Trayvon Martin’s parents, that’s all I can really think about it.

    This is important to me, SouthernBelle, because now I really see you as a person and I really don’t want you to feel as afraid as you perhaps do feel. It may be that thinking of the Zimmerman/Martin case the way I think about it is very frightening for YOU and I’m not trying to make you change the way you think.

    I think you need to give yourself permission to say and think things that are important to you, SouthernBelle. If you want to say them and not have them be all over the public forum, you can e-mail me directly at:

    Just make sure that you include something in your “RE” line of your e-mail that will let me know it is you e-mailing me.

    You are a valuable person to me. If I hear from you in my e-mail address I will be very glad to speak with you.

    God Bless you and good night.

  270. Hi Girlfriends, Malisha and Bets
    Had medical issues for almost a week. Been flat of my back. I recorded the hearing but haven’t watched it all, just skimmed thru. Can’t dispute the facts in court today, those are facts to study on. I think they should charge the wife, and I can’t figure out why they haven’t. Any ideas? Not just legal issue, but I don’t think I could put my hand on the Bible and lie. Can’t wait to see what you guys have to say. Bets, I deleted the movie, just didn’t want it in my house.
    I’m sorry if I’ve intruded on the wrong thread but I can’t seem to delete your posts and I didn’t want to look forever.
    I read a little about the nurse. Someone asked why the child didn’t have his inhaler on his person. M. and Bets, is that because of his age, school policy, or the post I read about teens using them to get high? Just wondered what ya know about that. Just curious.
    I did post a question about my suing the hospital/doc for not giving me blood thinner when I had to lay in hospital bed for so long. St.Louis hospital told me it was the biggest blood clot they had ever seen and it moved to my lung nine times. Everyone told me to sue, but I never even thought about it. Now it’s calcified and I will have it for the rest of my life. Didn’t get any blood thinner when I needed it most, now I have to take it for the rest of my life. Getting calls from a lawyer now, it seems the hospital is suing me because my ins. didn’t pay anything, and it was full Blue Cross major medical.
    Just wanted to say hi to you gals. Hope everything is going O.K. for ya.
    Sorry if I interrupted on the wrong thread. belle

  271. Belle, you probably should sue in the form of a “counterclaim” but I don’t know about that myself. Send me a description of what happened at and I’ll forward it to my doctor friend and to a doctor/lawyer friend too. Be well!

  272. Belle,

    The problem with the nurse: Seems the boy had the inhaler in his locker without a permission slip from his mother to the school telling them it was ok.
    The inhaler was in its original package with his name on it and with dosage and directions for use. Not sure about school policy. Some schools allow teens to keep their inhalers on them, others do not.

    In any case, an administrator searched boy’s locker (why?) and confiscated the inhaler on a Friday and gave it to the school nurse. Mom hadn’t submitted required paperwork so when boy needed the inhaler the nurse refused, sent him to the “office”, and called his mom. Mom said she told nurse to call 911, nurse said mom didn’t say it. Boy goes to office and is then sent back to the nurse who has locked herself in, boy can’t get in. She refuses inhaler, doesn’t call 911. Mom arrives at office, she and administrator go to nurse’s area. Boy slumped against the wall in the hallway. Mom says in full asthmatic arrest (not sure that’s the right word); school says no. Administrator unlocks nurse’s door and gives inhaler to mom.

  273. Confiscating the inhaler seems to me more of a problem than not “giving” it to the kid! With or without a permission slip, it was not an illegal substance and should not have been confiscated; are they nuts?

  274. Malisha
    I agree completely Malish. I carry one in my back pocket where ever I go. It’s just like picking up car keys and cell ph. They are for emergency use after all. Then I read that kids were abusing them, maybe that’s why he wasn’t allowed to carry it. Like the other poster, what they call a high from the inhaler, I also call a very unpleasant side effect. Right now I’m taking myself off opiates, they are a necessary evil for me, but jeez, I didn’t know it would be this hard. I sure have more empathy now for people with addictions.
    Back to Z. I remember wondering ,however briefly, why the brother that created the website that garnered all that money wasn’t available for a phone hearing. That’s a LOT of money. It’s not some little account with 2 or 3 thousand in it that you just overlooked. Heck, 2/3 is a lot of money to me now, and knowing what the money was to be used for would probably make one check the amount on a daily basis.

  275. A.R.E.

    ” those cuts did NOT have even a BAND Aid on it. Sure could not have been bleeding very much for the paramedics to not do that much.”

    Just to keep things clear, I don’t know of any Paramedic team that carries Band-Aids.

  276. Just to make the point clear, those scratches were not bleeding so much that the paramedics thought they warranted a BANDAGE then. The FACT is those were not close to life threatening, nor even a good cut! Hell, I have gotten worse bleeding from bumping my head, much less being in a knock down fight. Sure was not much of a fight for Zimmerman since he got so slightly injured.

  277. Wait, wait: Was the paramedic who treated Zimmerman “on the scene” a paramedic who came along with the ambulance that was supposed to take Trayvon Martin in? Because that second ambulance was canceled, remember? So there are two or three paramedics in an ambulance that arrives at a scene where there’s a DOA and ONE of them “cleans up” a guy who is NOT going in to the hospital? Excuse me, how does that work?

  278. A.R.E., good point. One time I had a “show-down” with a kid for whom I was baby-sitting and we accidentally fell down three stairs together (he was manhandling his little brother on the stairs so that is where I had to intervene) and both of us got banged up worse than Zimmerman. But neither one of us would whine and fuss about it for more than the five minutes it took to blow off steam! If Zimmerman experienced fear of great bodily harm or death from the scratch and bump (that sounds more like a dance than a near death experience), then he’s a paranoid and should never have either had a gun OR a right to participate in “neighborhood watching.” Furthermore, just as a timid dog will bite because it misjudges danger, a paranoid will perhaps kill because he projects his own evil intent onto his victim, and pow pow pow. The thing is, we’re not playing “cowboys and Indians” any more when we have a loaded gun and we’re 28 years old. All those boo hoo websites asking, “Is that enough blood for you?” make me want to say, “Noooooooo, it’s not.”

  279. Malisha
    I could post some pics the cops took of me that would put Z. to shame. My own sister didn’t recognize me at the hospital, walked right by me. Z. proudly displays his wounds and it’s laughable to me. Black eyes come later but they also last a long time if you’re hit hard enough, especially in the back of the head. And that’s a fact.
    It just burns my butt that the Z. wife hasn’t been arrested.
    Also, young man that spent five yrs. in prison for a rape he didn’t commit: Why doesn’t the girl have to give the money back and why hasn’t she been arrested?
    Wrong thread I know. Sorry
    M. will write you later…
    Do you get to see your son in the summer? He’s just got one yr. before graduates, did I remember that right?

  280. Patrick, I think the “Band Aid” comment was a metaphor for any small bandage. Point is, there was not enough damage to warrant even a small bandage patch, much less stitches. I feel the same as Malisha. I am not impressed with the extent of his “damage.” I have done that much self-harm when I stood up suddenly, forgetting the kitchen cabinet door was open just above me.

  281. People such as Patrick don’t use common sense or reasoning. It only matters that the person using deadly force used it and they are right no matter what. That is especially true when the kid who get murdered is black or a minority.

    We now find out that Zimmerman lied in court and has had his bond revoked for lying under oath, and getting illegally a duplicate passport. I hope the DoJ takes note and charges him for perjury, falsifying documents, among other crimes. I think it would be better to let him run the streets though, since we now know he is a career criminal type who is armed and dangerous. I would hope that an armed FL citizen would take note and shoot the crook if he so much as sneezes wrong.

  282. randyjet sez: “I would hope that an armed FL citizen would take note and shoot the crook if he so much as sneezes wrong.”


    Nope. That is the exact kind of thinking that got us to the point where we are now. This is supposed to be a civilized society of laws. Let the legal system work. That is what separates us from anarchy and barbarism.

  283. You are right OS. Anarchy is not the answer. The system is there for a reason and Mr. Z will learn how well it can work.
    BTW, it is good to hear from you OS!

  284. raff, I am still sick, but up and around, so watched part of the Zimmerman hearing this afternoon. The system is working. I was impressed with the judge, and I am not easily impressed. Zimmerman will get a trial, and fully expect it to be a fair trial. The judge expressed some concern about public release of evidence to the public because he wants both defense and prosecution to get the fairest trial possible. The elephant in the room was the risk of tainting the jury pool. We all know blogs like this weigh the pros and cons of the evidence as it is leaked out, and hopefully the jury pool will be literate.

    I recall that when Jack Ruby went on trial, somebody expressed concern to his attorney, Melvin Belli, that it would be hard to find a jury pool where no one had heard of Ruby. Belli was reported to have thundered that he did not want jurors so dumb they had never heard of Jack Ruby.

  285. Malisha:

    The city of Sanford, Florida EMS units operate from one of three fire stations. They use a combination of EMTs & Paramedics and they work in teams of two on each unit.

    Reports seem to indicate two EMS units were initially dispatched, and the one furthest from the scene was cancelled by the first medics on scene prior to their arrival. This happens all the time.

    If the call to EMS came down – for example – as “two patients on scene, one apparent gunshot and one apparent head injury” then it’s very possible a second medic unit was called out to handle what initially sounded like two seriously injured patients. Just like cops & fire, medic teams are called & then subsequently cancelled a thousand times daily.

    Because the gunshot victim in this case was not transported, that means he by definition ought to have exhibited one of the “nine signs of obvious death.” Medics have to complete a rather exhaustive pre-hospital care document, in quadruplicate, and whatever the obvious signs were, had to be documented. They assume every single case will go to court, and that they will be called to testify. I’ve not heard which of these signs it was. The gunshot was far to recent to exhibit – for example – Rigor, Lividity, et al. But “not breathing and no heartbeat” is not obvious death. There had to be something else.

    I can promise you that the PCF detailed & signed by the medics, as well as the tape recording of the medic/ACLS nurse in the ER – pretty much guarantees there are no cover-ups.

    Historically & nationwide, cops & medics clash all the time, while on scene, over whether the victim is a viable patient, or a true coroner’s case. Cops – of course – want the body to stay as it lay. Medics want to cut clothes off and save a life. The decision is supposed to be the medics’ call, but much of the time, it depends on how vigorously the medics put their foot down, and advocate for the patient.

    Inexperienced medics can – and do – acquiesce proper medical control to cops of strong will.

    I would love to know the on-scene dynamics in this case.

  286. randyjet:

    To the contrary.

    “People like Patrick” have treated 20,000 EMS patients since 1979 – a depressing number of whom were gunshots wounds & head injuries. The patterns on the streets we see are not theoretical.

    I’ve lost track how many times I’ve been deposed & testified. and I can assure you I would never have comported well on cross examination had I lacked ability to reason.

    For the record, my Band-Aid comment to A.R.E was in jest, for pete’s sake. The point is, a conscious & coherent adult can refuse treatment, which is evidently what George Z. did. People do that a thousand times a day in this country, only to show up in the E.R. tomorrow with serious injuries.

    As I’ve stated before, I do not find George Z. a particularly sympathetic fellow. But much of the verbal lynching seems premature and downright self-serving.

    T. Martin was no potential saint. He was a man-child as complex as many of us. So I don’t choose to readily dismiss his garbage-laden, race-baiting, misogynistic rants on the internet, as the proffering of a peaceful mind, who could never have contributed to his own demise.

    And I’m a hair miffed at those who might.

  287. Malisha
    T.Martin wasn’t a potential saint, you’re right. I’ll tell you something else, I sure wasn’t either. Neither are my nieces, nephews, or any other 17 yr. old that I know of. Some have juvenile records already. Mostly minor stuff but the operative word is minor. Kids will be kids, doesn’t mean they’re malicious criminals. Any potential juror that says they have never heard of this case will easily be outed. I was sure Anthony was guilty, still not convinced she isn’t, but that’s not for me to say. She got a fair trial even though everything was released. Doesn’t matter what I think, I respect the jurors and there decision and I’m very proud of how that case turned out, not talking about the verdict, I’m talking about the fact that the system worked. The disgrace came after the trial. No juror should ever feel threatened because of a verdict.

  288. Belle, it wasn’t I who said Trayvon Martin was not a potential saint, but your comments sent me up to look at that comment, which was made by PatricParamedic, whose posts are very informative and attentive to detail. Of course, what he’s saying about Martin is that SINCE the kid’s on-line exercise of free speech portrays him, post-mortem, as a 17-year-old who feels some anger, who uses coarse language, who displays a “Hey, you talkin’ to me?” kinda persona, yada yada, then people should consider the possibility that he “contributed” to a situation that led to his own death.


    I mean, first of all, Zimmerman knew NOTHING about what Trayvon Martin might have said on-line (etc.) when he killed him. And if the idea is that Trayvon Martin, being a non-saint, might have been responsible for more physical defense than any one of us might have wanted him to engage in, I don’t know that there is any way for any of us, as brilliant as we might be, to measure Trayvon Martin’s fear. Nor do we really know that George Zimmerman had NOT said those fateful words: “You’re gonna die tonight.” Perhaps he attributed them to his victim because, after the deed was done, he was engaging in BOTH psychological projection AND lying to cover his ass. Perhaps even if Trayvon Martin HAD been a saint (and there is no constitutional requirement for him to be one), he would have been just as scared as he would have been IF he were a little devil, and perhaps a little saint would have managed to put forth a little MORE physical defense (in terms of ergs or glooms or bambams or however they measure the energy of life-defensive physical force) because he might have been inspired by Divine Providence at the moment he leapt forth, like Jacob fighting the Angel of Death.

    Who knows? Nobody will EVER know and I persist in thinking Trayvon Martin’s saintliness or bedevilment are irrelevant. If you want to go kill somebody, for essentially no reason, should you pick a saint or a sinner?

    But on another matter, I do think that the common police idea that a 17-year-old Black kid must be more likely devil than angel motivated them to fail to treat George Zimmerman like the real criminal on 2/26/2012.

  289. Belle: First of all, before I forget, I believe Sojourner Truth’s given name (before she changed her name herself) was Belle! I just remembered that today.

    OK, second — you say, “Malisha, I could post some pics the cops took of me that would put Z. to shame.”

    I know that’s a figure of speech, and I know this has nothing to do with the legalities and the criminal law issues involved with the death of Trayvon Martin, but I think what you have said here is actually the issue. NOTHING would put Z to shame. Z does not “shame easy.”

    Think of it. You believe somebody is going to burglarize your neighborhood. You go after him, although you don’t have to do that. The police tell you, “We don’t need you to do that.” You choose to do that anyway. You end up in something, whatever it is, you didn’t really plan it out that way, and you KILL HIM.

    Now, aren’t you ashamed?

    No matter WHO the Hell he is, no matter what the Hell was going on, aren’t you ASHAMED?

    Zimmerman was not ashamed.

    It appears that Zimmerman is STILL not ashamed, even after he found out: (a) that the kid was NOT there to burglarize anybody; (b) that the kid was 17 years old, and just barely 17 years old; (c) that the kid was unarmed; (d) that the kid had no criminal record; and (e) that the kid was very important to a lot of other innocent people too, a father, a mother, a brother, a girlfriend, friends at school, and his community.

    AND Z IS STILL NOT ASHAMED!! OMG OMG OMG What kind of person is this man?

    He’s still complaining about his nose, his noggin, his stress; the kid is dead, and all we hear from him is that he is “sorry for your loss” — and that, after being coached by a really smart defense lawyer.

    Would he have to say, “I accidentally killed a saint!” to reach the point of feeling the human emotion of shame? God help us!

  290. Hey M.
    Just like I told you after watching that video of him at the police station three days after the shooting. The one where his head had the big bandage. I can see shame in ppl and I played that video over and over. I would bet my next s.s. check that he doesn’t know he’s being watched. He’s just totally at ease, maybe that’s not the right word. more like, unconcerned, cocky, total comfort zone. There wasn’t any ‘slump’ in his shoulders, I’m sure someone has a better descriptive word then that. I would WANT to be in jail myself.
    Maybe I assumed too quickly, and I know I shouldn’t assume anything, that Z’s. wife was guilty of perjury. but how do you NOT know that you have over 200 grand in a PayPal account ? To be honest, I think that Z. brother will cover that aspect, hold himself accountable and protect his brother. Then again, if he didn’t know about all the g’s then where did the code come from during the jail cell calls ? It seems to me that if they actually did have a code, it had to be something they have utilized before, something before this took place. Why would anyone need a code to begin with ?

    OMG. I read some of these posts of mine and I think I’m being too judgmental, not having all the facts and assuming is not the right thing to to either, and I know it. Maybe I’m reading too many mystery novels and watching too much court T.V. Maybe I need to lay off a little.
    As soon as I find out who the serial killer is in the one I’m reading now, I’ll do just that.

  291. PatricParamedic, who knows from whereof he speaks, says:

    If the call to EMS came down – for example – as “two patients on scene, one apparent gunshot and one apparent head injury” then it’s very possible a second medic unit was called out to handle what initially sounded like two seriously injured patients.

    The phrase I find very important is: “What initially sounded like two seriously injured patients.”

    It might have initially sounded like that. But not by the time the guy without the bandaids showed up.

    Now in Bethesda Maryland, in 2011, there was a case where two women were said to have been raped and beaten and one of them was dead. Later, it was discovered that the dead woman had been beaten up and killed by the still-living one, who was charged with murder. See, at FIRST, it looked like there were two seriously injured women there. But all the injuries on the murderer were self-inflicted. No eyewitnesses of the actual beginning of the fight. The killer was convicted.

  292. Actually, I think reading books about real crimes, and even fictionalized books about murder mysteries, etc., is a perfectly fine activity. If you’re the kind of person who blames people without thinking about it, you’ll blame people without thinking whether you’re in a fiction or in real life. And if not, not. Sometimes I think reading and watching fiction helps us deal with facts, so long as we are not totally deluded about what goes on in the world. For instance, Zimmerman’s wild tales of “You got a problem, homie?” and “You’re gonna die tonight,” and “You got me” are a product of Zimmerman reading too many “cops and robbers” things or watching too many TV cop movies where each time the camera pays attention to someone in a crowd, that is actually the perp! But that is not because Zimmerman WATCHED those things; it’s because he fancied himself one of the heroes people would like to watch!

    I don’t think Zimmerman or his family members will be charged with perjury. I think the judge did a reasonable thing, not necessarily because he insists that Zimmerman has to stay in jail now, but because it was becoming clear that you can’t just EVADE the public issue of a couple hundred grand and you can’t rationally consider it an “error” when people who would not see that kind of money in their bank per decade suddenly forget they have it. For self-defense to be the way out of this for Zimmerman, he has to have credibility. Since I believe he killed Trayvon Martin in cold blood, I hope his credibility is damaged enough now that he understands he can’t keep crying “self-defense” and get away with it.

  293. Well, the Sanford Jail has Zimmerman in custody now, and they should take him down to the hospital for a complete physical, including x-rays. It should be done for two reasons: One, to document his condition in case it later is said that he was injured somehow in jail; and two, to see if there is possibly some trace, on the x-ray, of that broken nose. Now’s the time.

    (Otherwise what’s to keep him from alleging mistreatment in jail?)

  294. Well, O’Mara says that the reason Zimmerman lied about how much money he had at the first bond hearing was that he was “confused, mistrustful and fearful.”

    OK, that explains it.

    But…don’t we think that on 2/26/2012 Trayvon Martin was “confused, mistrustful and fearful” when some stranger was following him and then approached him in the dark? Could his confusion, mistrust and fear have prompted him to do something Zimmerman misunderstood and reacted to in a way that caused more conflict than would otherwise have resulted?

    And…don’t we also think that on 2/26/2012 Zimmerman, after shooting Martin, was “confused, misstrustful and fearful” about the fact that he shot someone, so perhaps THEN his credibility might not been at 100%? Could his confusion, mistrust and fear have prompted him to lie about what he had just done?


  296. The story of George Zimmerman running around handing out leaflets for the poor homeless black man who was beaten had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MAN’S RIGHTS. It had to do with a political struggle between LEE and his predecessor. Zimmerman was politically aligned with Lee and helped him get rid of the competition and ascend to the throne. Zimmerman will use any kind of situation to further his own goals; he is an opportunist and a sociopath and he puts up a front of being holier than thou, protective of poor little victimized people (tutoring little black boys etc. — somebody needs to INTERVIEW THEM QUICK!!) and etc. because he doesn’t want to stand there and say: “I will do as I damn please and excuse it anyway I want and that’s because I am the good guy and by definition anybody I target is the bad guy.”

    He’s actually a very common person. Not at all unusual, not at all remarkable, except that he has found himself in this big public situation. He’s just a bully. He’s not even (probably) a pervert in any way other than thinking other people’s lives are disposable but his is not. He’s a run-of-the-mill over-entitled unintelligent boorish petty alleged murderer. And his carrying on about god’s plan is very out of place — he’s no expert on god’s plan when he couldn’t execute his OWN very well.

  297. I want to know if the police tested Zimmerman’s underwear on the night of 2/26/2012 for evidence of ejaculant.

  298. I think his jacket and shirt were tested for gunshot residue, maybe for blood. The rest of his clothes were not tested but are in evidence. Note to self: be sure your underwear is clean and in good repair. You never know when it’s going to be confiscated. : )

  299. BettyKath, sorry, my panties got confiscated by Anon long ago; I had no “pantie-waving” license and got caught in a Feminazi raid. :-)

    BTW, I don’t think George was looking for sex on 2/26/2012 at all; I was just expressing my view that killing might have been very exciting for him.

  300. I’m now 99.9% sure the report of the FBI learning that George Zimmerman was watching gay porn was a total fake and fraud.

    The report seemed strange, coming out when it did, but at first reading I assumed the SanfordDailyNews website was the publication of the local newspaper. Now I have re-read this thing a few times because it seemed so strange that it had no repercussions in the larger media outlets, and I have come to the conclusion that it is a fake and a fraud, and that there is no such data “stumbled upon” by the FBI or anybody else.

    It’s somebody capitalizing on the fact that people often google the name “George Zimmerman” so they are able to get people to click on them a lot.

    It does seem, however, that this particular form of Internet fraud should be actionable. Who knows? If it is actionable, I hope it ends up getting punished. Not for George’s sake (really, what he did getting him false bad press as well as true bad press doesn’t make me weep big tears for the guy) but for the sake of at least trying to prevent fraud.

    Of course, I also think the purveyors of the Trayvon Martin targets should have been punished using the law, or even using “the law” — but they probably got a free card on their hideous and immoral behavior.

  301. Interesting development: Now that George has used his medical records to show that poor boy had his nose broken and his head bopped, a subpoena for his medical records from ten miles away in Altamonte Florida is being opposed by his counsel. What, no medical records to show how bad the poor victimized Hispanic neighorhood-protector has been hurt?

    I’m laying bets right now — a 24 ounce sweet drink with ice from New York City — that the medical records from Altamonte show something that would make george’s “family doctor” report of “suspected closed fracture” and so forth look a litt-tell-bitt silly. Takers?

  302. Even though the first mentions of the broken nose were a lawyer (not a doctor) claiming a “broken nose,”


    the next big mention of the broken nose was after that lawyer who first “broke the story” quit the case and was replaced by Mark O’Mara, who claimed George had a “broken nose,”


    the medical reports included in the first evidence dump used the word “possible” or “suspected” before the words “closed fracture”


    the next time we saw written medical reports they used the phrase “likely closed fracture” —

    all of which, taken together, STILL only mean “possible broken nose,”


    although we have never been given a photograph of “two black eyes,”

    we now read this sentence in all the press reports relating to the subpoena for medical documents:

    “Zimmerman had two black eyes, a broken nose and two cuts to the back of his head.”

    That is as blatantly wrongful for the press to print as it would be for them to say either:

    “Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense” or

    “Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin.”

    PLEASE, JOURNALISTS, will you re-read the requirements of your job? Is the NBC journalist who first took “he looks black” out of context and got fired for it the only journalist in this country who has to follow the rules?

  303. When O’Mara defended against the subpoena for ALL George Z’s medical records, I thought it was probably related to the fact that (a) he either had a pre-existing broken nose long before he ever killed Trayvon Martin or he had no fracture at all; or (b) all his big injury claims were ruled out.

    Then I began to think of yet another issue that George would not want to be made public. He has apparently been diagnosed, for some time, with IBS, irritable bowel syndrome. There might be some alternate story, embarrassing to George, about how he spent his next three days. Joe Oliver or frank Taaffe (I have now forgotten) (or maybe even one of the two original bozo lawyers) said that George spent three days crying after his alleged self-defensive incident on 2/26/2012; maybe he spent those three days running back and forth to the “rest room” instead. ???

  304. Professor: No it doesn’t. It turns out that it shows “likely broken nose” and no x-rays. In fact, the medical report shows that George doesn’t want a “rule-out” diagnosis to be performed. To me, it shows that George wants to hide the condition of his nose. Probably because it was where it didn’t belong on 2/26/2012.

  305. The article reads in part:

    ” Some issues are likely to be raise such as whether the paramedics saw a broken nose and whether such “closed fractures” can be easily missed by a paramedic on an street at night.”

    Closed fractures are missed all the time, at every level of care. Thus the huge advantage of x-rays. What the Medic would report to the ER is “possible fracture.”

    The best indicator of a fracture is deformity of the bone. Some of the “nose” isn’t bone at all – it’s softer tissue. It may or may not be tweaked, or even bleeding.

    I have no particular opinion on how badly – or mildly – George Z may have been, following the incident in question.

    But I can state with some knowledge, that observers from a distance who insist he didn’t “look hurt enough” are allowing their judgement to be clouded by their empathy for the victim. Understandable, but not logical.

    In the field of EMS, we witness a stunning range of behavior and appearance after at times unbelievable violence. And one of the first things you learn when you walk up to a patient is never judge the severity by the amount of blood you see or don’t see.

    But I’ve yet to hear exactly what “obvious death” signs the Medics witnessed of T. Martin. There are nine obvious death signs, and a gunshot wound to the chest isn’t one of them.

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