We have followed the plight of women in Afghanistan as both the Taliban and the government roll back on advances in women’s rights after the U.S. invasion. Now another disturbing video has surfaced where dozens of men cheer as a man pumps round afer round into a woman accused of adultery. As nine shots are fired into her, the men cheer “God is Great!” in ecstatic celebration, as shown in the video accompanying the article below. Notably, this killing took place not in some far off province but the village of Qimchok to the north of Kabul.
The burqa-clad woman is shown sitting on the rocky ground as the man pointing a rifle at her from a few feet away fires the shots into her. It is not until the third shot that she actually falls over. The scene thrills the dozens of men on a hillside who cheer: “God is great!”
To make this barbaric scene complete, it turns out that two Taliban commanders had a dispute over their claims to the woman. Parwan province governor Abdul Basir Salangi said that they decided to accuse her of adultery “in order to save face.” Both of those commanders were later killed by a third Taliban commander.
The Human Rights Watch has found that nearly nine out of 10 women suffer physical, sexual, or psychological violence or forced marriage at least once in their lifetimes.
If you recall, we previously discussed how our ally Hamid Karzai has called women secondary to men and harassed efforts to create shelters for women. Yet our men and women continue to fight in this country for a legal system that denies basic rights to women and religious minorities — as well as continuing to spend billions as we close programs for lack of funding in the U.S.
Source: CNN
The gun, one step forward…..or is it…… The Koran one step back or is it?
I would think by now we have seen enough examples to understand that we can’t just land a million troops in some country, kill a few thousand people, blow up a bunch of shit, install some friendly dilettante as PM/President/Grand Vizir and expect them to immediately become some “enlightened” industrial democracy. Yet we are all shocked that people who have lived a certain way for thousands of years cling to those ways and, in fact, cling more fanatically as their society and infrastructure are blown to crap by our armed forces.
The army is an instrument of war and destruction it is not a tool of diplomacy and progress. Repeating this scenario again and again but expecting different results is a sign of a mental illness that we as a nation appear unwilling to admit.
We’ll all feign outrage today, but get right back to policies that enable their access to weapons and money from drug sales tomorrow.
If we’re outraged for more than a day, the UN might even issue a statement……you know…..of regret or something.
Frankly 1, July 9, 2012 at 8:03 am
I would think by now we have seen enough examples to understand that we can’t just land a million troops in some country, kill a few thousand people, blow up a bunch of shit, install some friendly dilettante as PM/President/Grand Vizir and expect them to immediately become some “enlightened” industrial democracy.
…
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Indeed.
Perhaps that is not the reason we do these things, as two authors have indicated in agreement with you on that point:
(Myth Addiction …, quoting 1944 book). If that sounds familiar, a more modern book is also in accord:
(Making The Future, by N. Chomsky, p.87). The “accidentally blundering into their oil wells” is an oft repeated accidental blunder that enriches what one author, Steve Coll, calls “The Private Empire” that runs things from behind the scenes.
And they leave those nations worse off, not better off.
So, while as you say, we the people might “expect them to immediately become some “enlightened” industrial democracy, the powers that be really don’t put that into their calculations.
They just use propaganda to say that is what they are doing.
Somebody please explain to me why we are still in that Godforsaken place and our troops are still dying….for…what?
Headline from MSNBC:
Afghanistan did not work for the British in the 19th century, the Soviet Union in the 20th, and is not going to change for us in the 21st as their culture charges headlong into the ninth century.
Dredd – I don’t for a minute believe the people who got us into the fuster-cluck that is Iraq thought they were spreading democracy and enlightenment. But they sold that idea to the great unwashed And a lot of people, not just the tea-baggin’ morans thought we were going to replace generations of societal norms with a few cluster bombs and GAU-8 rounds followed by some new wells a a couple of girls schools.
Great point, “Frankly”…After reading this article my immediate reaction was to get angry at our military and to be outraged byour presence in Afghanistan. I definitely didn’t get angry at these thugs/religious zealots who feel their faith authorizes them to kill women. I was just pissed at the Marine Corps.
Afghanistan, Pakistan, … all these Stan countries bundled together. It is an insult to Stan The Man. God is not great if he lets these things happen. Perhaps there is no God. Certainly not in the stan countries.
EEO Irish,
Nice try at diverting the subject of our government’s senseless wasting of lives, money, and time in Afghanistan, to “Support Our Troops!”
Murdering more Afghanis isn’t going to help their situation. Supporting the corrupt puppet Afghan government, and their partners, the Taliban, won’t help, either.
You can support the Marine Corps by getting it out of that hopeless, medieval situation.
But thanks for trying.
There is way too much emotional stone throwing amongst the fudamentalists elite . Physically stone throwing is against the law in most of the world . Jesus said it best: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. ” If there is a course to conquer hypocrisy in the schools it has been through literature . Spreading ideas through linguistics might help. How do Afghan academics define the word “hypocrisy” ? Too much anger and no sense of fair play defeats the purpose of being an adult , who can supposedly learn from mistakes and group bullying.
EEO Irish
I find it very insulting to our Military that you would not be upset with the gang that murdered this woman but our Marines who serve there. Have you lost your sense of reason? What would your reaction be if you were the woman about to be pumped full of lead? Would you just resign yourself to being killed because of your proffered sympathy towards the men who shot her? Yes, it is thinking such as yours that turns away from reality of these killers by allowing murderers to have license to brutality because you profess to have the moral high ground in order to foolishly attempt to elevate yourself to being the superior moral. This type of thinking just enables more murderers to spread their ways because it allows them to get away with it because you are too busy portraying them as the victim in order to further political ideals that you hold onto without doing some realistic thinking.
Have you no care of what this woman or others like her went through? And what are you willing to do about it? Nothing I would venture to say. Or is it “Well their religion is afronted because we are bad. Let them kill more women.”
How about you go over to Afghansitan and try to be friendly with these murderers, tell them all is forgiven and the US is the enemy of civilization, and you support them in all their Honor Killings. I’ll bet even after all this you will still eventually find yourself facing the business end of a AK-47. Would you have that reality here in the United States?
Bob-
Nice try. My post has nothing to do with “support our troops.” I too would like to see our men and women come home and think the war in Iraq (not Afghanistan) was wrong from the start. And considering the fact that I was an infantry officer in the marine corps, I probably have more of a personal stake in the idea of “bringing home the tropps” than you. I just found it odd that in a post showing fanatics murdering a woman for adultery, someone found it necessary to talk “or war of destruction.”
ps, your comment about how we “murder” civilians tells me everything I need to know about your warped view of the world.
EEO Irish. I believe an apology is in order from me to you.
I re-read your post which began “Great point, “Frankly”…After reading this ” and I suspect you were using Irony / sarcasm to address another contributor’s point. If that was the case I misunderstood it and thought it was your true belief and I will be more careful next time. Sorry.
An extreme case of blame the victim. At least the perpetrators were brought to justice, albeit with minimum due process. But maybe that’s their idea of due process.
http://itsybitsysteps.com/16-year-old-amina-filali-who-was-forced-to-marry-her-rapist-commits-suicide/
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nothing new under the sun.
@Darren-No worries. And no apology is necessary. Sarcasam doesn’t always come off as well in print as it does via the spoken word…And I was definitely being sarcastic.
EEO – you still got it wrong. I hardly blame the Marines for doing as ordered & nothing in my post suggests I blame any branch of the military. I do blame people who are so naive as to believe if we just blow the hell out of some country and install some puppet under the guise of democracy that they will suddenly become tiny USAs of freedom and behave exactly like we want them to.
Odds are they will behave more like they way they have been socialized to since childhood. We should not be surprised by this & I am hardly surprised that these guys acted exactly as their fathers & grandfathers would have acted. With the possible addition of some extra modern violence.
Not sure why you are overly sensitive about the USMC specifically. Reread the post. What I said was dropping bombs on people is not going to make them enlightened.
Fundamentalist religion is insanity incorporated.
No version of any fundamentalist faith is without barbarity. That said had I come upon these “glory to Allah” types in the aftermath of this horror, I would have little problem killing them and I’m far from a violent person. I don’t think we should be in Afghanistan, but had we never been there this type of horror would still exist. I also have no doubt that fundamentalist Christians, Hindus and Jews would also perpetrate horrors if given the chance.
What Frankly and Mike S. said!
Disgusting story.
The situation in Afghanistan is horrible, for everyone who is there. More so for women and children.
The situation was bad before the U.S.A. blundered into Afghanistan.
The situation will be bad after the U.S.A. leaves Afghanistan.
Invasion by empire after empire will not improve things there.
The U.S.A. is there only because the U.S.A. is there. No other reason. Inertia. Over ten years, now!
No citizen of the U.S.A. has any business in that tragic little impoverished, backward country.
Murdering, killing, zapping, terminating, neutralizing the people, “winning their hearts and minds,” bribing their “leaders,” doesn’t help.
I don’t like their treatment of women. I don’t like theocracies. I don’t have to. I can’t change them. They’re many thousands of miles away.
Leave them the hell alone.
Our troops are there for same reason that they are always there: resources for big corporations. In this case for the Caspian Sea pipeline for BP, Exxon Mobil, Shell.
bettykath,
I suspect you’re right. They’re already fighting over the oil leases in Iraq.
Get everybody out. Cut off all foreign aid and bomb the poppy fields from space. The luddites will have a harder time rulling the meek when they can’t buy bullets. The only thing that country has to offer is heroine and goat wool. They’re going top have to drag themslves into the 21 century. They’re running about 12 centuries late.
What gobsmacks me is the fact the lessons of Sun Tzu are taught in every military college in the world. Are the students all asleep during that coursework? Sun Tzu says that one should plan every campaign meticulously and never meet the enemy on his chosen battlefield. He also wrote that a winning general knows when to withdraw from the battlefield. There is no point in throwing treasure and armies into a losing cause. As Kenny Rogers sang in “The Gambler,” “You have to know when to hold up and when to fold up.”
Maybe the politicians who tell the generals what to do ought to take the course. Of course, politicians will never do what is right if he or she thinks it will cost votes, no matter the cost in lives and money.
Values are a mixed bag of motivators, as several have noted from different POVs.
Profit, dominance, the world chess game are clearer and truer to reality, I believe.
Stumbling on the oil and finding by chance the rare minerals etc etc are closer to reality as to motivators.
As one at least already has noted.
Why do not the bees here become attracted to and circle, and discuss the bloom of truth. Odd.
Religion is of course involved, as noted. Partial or total insanity, which is preferable? Depends of course on your POV. Which is more important: Male honor or the name of God. Both are killing instances.
We can presume, tho’ not said, that the executioner of the two quarreling commanders was a relative of the woman, defending his tribe’s honor.
Does it´all not resemble what we did to the native americans here in our “own” land.
Taking over a territory was messy, as we have found in our own history. Using proxies is far better.
They are like some have observed “sub-contractors” operating an “USA” franchise. Otherwise rises the issue of “representation in our Congress, elegibility to influence the USA. And we don’t want that now do WE. Old as the Roman model. Perhaps older.
The Taliban do not appear much given to self-examination. Were that not the case, they might realize that adultery requires two participants. They might also recognize that by laying responsibility for adultery solely on the female, they are essentially acknowledging to the world that Muslim men have all of the discipline and self-control of your average gecko.
Mike A.
Don’t insult geckos, it is unseemly.
OS,
They may learn Sun Tzu, but the ego soon causes them amnesia when it comes to applying his principles.
Seamus,
Opium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001. Based on UNODC data, there has been more opium poppy cultivation in each of the past four growing seasons (2004–2007) than in any one year during Taliban rule.
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Mike Appleton,
well said (except for the gecko part)
Not that I expect any of you to care, but, as my life has taken me to Afghanistan many times since 2004, both as a country specialist for AIUSA and as a teacher trainer for several NGO’s, I wish I could MAKE you care. It is after all your tax payer monies which will be used to fund future military and non-military aid there. Just a few days ago, at the Tokyo Donor Conference, the US (and other nations) pledged billions again in aid monies and the US is most likely one of the larger donors. From AI’s public statement on the killing of this woman: ” Such incidents are a strong reminder that the Afghan government and its international partners must strengthen efforts, in line with Security Council resolutions 1325(2000) and 2041(2012) to ensure that human rights, including women’s rights, are promoted, and not traded away or compromised, including during reconciliation talks with the Taleban. Reconciliation talks must not result in impunity for serious violations of human rights and international criminal law, including war crimes. Indeed suspected war crimes and crimes against humanity in Afghanistan should be investigated and prosecuted by the International Criminal Court.”
As I now work mostly in the US, I admit that my concern with the rights of women HERE have increased and in my PERSONAL opinion, this goes hand in hand with religion as well. Before you know it, we’ll have some nut like Santorum as president and advocating for ‘punishment’ for adulterous women as well. For why blame the man for adultery; he’s after all just being seduced by an immoral woman.
I like geckos. Do you have or know of them. They sometimes hide behind the loosely hung mirror in the bathroom awaiting food to pass by. Don’t confuse with the wall-eyed green things. These are fast. But harmless. In Thailand of course, I mean to say.
ElsieDL,
Nice to see you here.
Your experience in Afghanistan is not clear as to what activities and level of contact you had, nor your language skills.
But your wishes for the women there are clear. And apparently still of importance to you.
BUT, a big BUT: The citation you quoted is so worthless it is not even worth the ink to print it with. Don’t know who AI is (am not USA resident) but the importance of UN Security Council resolutions are most often marked by their being ignored.
IMO, the monies are of no use to aid the women there.
But, you have been there, so tell what we need to know as you feel it.
It is a matter of culture and religion as you say in Afghanistan. But it is so in the USA also. Or what do yóu say about the ALEC sponsored state laws limiting womens health rights, etc.???
PS I have a friend here in Stockholm, who grew up in India for a few years, moved to Iran, just over the border from her grandparents in Herat, speaks Urdu, Farsi, and the variant of Herat. Now she speaks Swedish like a Swede, is like a Swede, in spite of her husbands backward mother and sisters who regard her as sinful!!! She is learning english now, rapidly.
My other friend the Afghanistan licensed pharmacist says education is the answer.
Elsie,
I’m certainly upset about how women are being treated – one afghani to another. However, I don’t see that our current role is helpful in any way. We have no credibility Drone attacks and bashing in houses and killing the inhabitants cannot be helpful in any way. I fully support foreign aid that truly helps make lives better. We should really be redirecting some portion of our military budget to foreign aid. I see that our military’s presence there is for no other purpose than to make Afghanistan “safe” for oil companies and the drug trade. Locals who get in the way will be labeled as insurgents or al queda and killed. Note that definition of combatant is any male who happens to be killed. That’s disgraceful That’s not to say that individual military people don’t mean well, but the policy is disastrous.
Hi Idealist,
English is my fourth language, something I hope you can relate to since you are Swedish? As for my language skills, I know mine aren’t perfect and noticed yours aren’t either. As for some background about me and my involvement which dates back to the summer of 2004: I am country specialist for Amnesty International here in the US. Sorry for using an acronym. I have helped to organize and participated in teacher trainings in the provinces of Kabul, Khost, Ghor, Ghazni and Bamyan for several Afghan and American educational non-profit organizations. I was the guest of mayors, the US military, and of governors and a few times stayed with Afghan citizens in their homes as well. I organized and met with many of the female members of parliament in Kabul to discuss, among other things, how an organization like ours can best help make a dent into continuous violence against women, not that this is the only issue we are working on. I have run many actions and participated in many Afghanistan-related events to promote human rights and to defend them. Our actions are terribly limited but be assured that the right to education is central to our work there. The Afghan Constitution gives both girls and boys equal access to education and believe it or not, millions of both are now going to school. Two friends of mine I worked with while in Afghanistan would beg to differ strongly with you as they have been living and working there with the Ministry of Education and writing the curriculum for Kindergarten through high school and have worked with teams to train thousands and thousands of teachers, both male and female, including hands-on science, one of the subjects I taught there.
I am not a fan of the UN but I don’t have the time and energy and training to discuss this point.
As a teacher with 25 years of experience, I think that education if of course a priority. It would’ve been nice had the international community done more to strengthen the justice system.
I could tackle some of your questions if I had more time tonight.
It is difficult for me to stop lobbying and working on behalf of Afghan women, given that I do see improvements and feel I can’t abandon them now that the going is tough.
As far as the attacks, from among which ALEC, on the rights of women here in the US, I don’t need you to point them out, as I am following any developments like anti-abortion (and other birth control methods) closely.
In closing, I want to point out that your snarky tone is annoying and unbecoming. I have noticed on this blog however I’m not the first person you decide to treat this way.
Elsie DL, I quit responding to him some time ago. Many of the regulars here are taking that tack also.
Your perspective is interesting and compelling, but not persuasive for the argument of us staying in Afghanistan. As you have probably already come to realize, you cannot save everyone. I discussed this upthread. As one who has studied the teachings of Sun Tzu, is seems safe to say we are in the wrong place at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons, and are about five or six centuries too soon.
BettyKath, I personally agree that the invasion of Afghanistan by the US and its allies has caused a lot of pain on those we were supposed to help. The night raids are also very offensive to the Afghan people (the word Afghani refers to the currency in Afghanistan). The use of drones is most definitely worth a lot more of both investigation and discussion.
I would have loved to see more money spent on issues of importance like health care, education myself. It is very frustrating to read all the reports/articles which have for so many years pointed out the corruption by Pres. Karzai and Company as well as the war profiteering by western companies, including USAID which is supposed to bring more direct aid to the local population.
Again, I didn’t think anyone would care about women’s rights issues in Afghanistan, but I felt strongly to add my mere drop to the bucket of knowledge. I realize that I am pretty lonely when it comes to human rights in general, and the rights of Afghan women, in particular. I have enjoyed some small victories as a result of my passion and I hope these will sustain me for some years to come even though the future looks bleak. If I feel that the rights of women in the US needs more energy than it is getting, I may be forced to switch my ’cause celebre’ (no French keyboard I’m afraid).
Elsie DL,
By working for AI, it seems you’ve dedicated your life to fight the good fight and that engenders my respect. Although at times, on some issues we may disagree, I nevertheless commend the work you are doing. One of the issues I doubt we’ll disagree on is the need to protect women’s rights snd equality throughout the world.
Elsie, thanks for the work you are doing there.
and thanks for the word correction – Afghan vs Afghani.
Elsie,
I want to echo the welcome to you and your contribution to the discussion here as well as your work with Amenesty International. Thanks.
ElsieDL,
I am sorry to hear that you regard my tone as snarky.
As a FAVOR to me I would appreciate a citation of what I have written and an explanation of what you find offensive. No one so far here has given me this information.
I have been accused of this before, that is clear, and I had hoped to understand how to improve. But in your eyes I have obviously not succeeded, but as you say you had already seem me in action against others here.
Now re those actions, not knowing which you are referring to, I can only say that I have have had
many conflicts here on many points but seldom any help in dealing with your point of snarkiness. Perhaps this is what they meant when they said I attacked people. But they never explained what constituted an attack. Neither did they show how the same message could be formulatied in an non-attack form.
My reaction on reading your first comment was one of welcome. Finally someone with foots-on-the ground experience to clarify things in Afghanistan.
But first I ssked for your POV, your bonafides. A reasonable request I felt. If this offended, the tell me how it would have been expressed more comfortably to your ears.
If my welcome and attitude did not come over as I wished is tragic as it confirms your poor opinion of me, and mekes our working together more difficult to arrive at a better understanding of what is happening there.
I cannot apologize meaningfully, as I said I am not clear what you found “snarky”. But should you HELP me by explaining where and how I “hurt” you, then an apology would be offered willingly and sincerely. And I would be most thankful in receiving the “help” which so far has been denied.
I see that there was one who came to say that I am regarded poorly by some, and as he implied, thus many others who just ignore me. This is the first time that that has been said where I could hear it. That is sad to hear for several raasons: first they assume that in some way I am with my American background supposed to see my faults and understand how I transgress, so my transgressions must be obvious to me and thus they are ones I consciously choose myself. Such is NOT the case.
I meet with a gestalt psychotherapist since 6 years about every two weeks now. So, my problems are not taken lightly by myself. I pay for this myself, as this type of therapy, although fully certified, is not covered by the Swedish health system.
If you could go so far as to offer an this info to me, then it would be a kind deed.
I meant you no ill personally. You feel, perhaps, that I condemned YOU by my condemnation of a UN source whích I find ineffectual. But that, as I meant it, was no reflection on you, but perhaps inappropriate to be offered in response to what you offered as an introduction to yourself.
I thank you for your open expression of dislike of my snarkiness. Tell me how please my words and formulations seemed snarky. This will give me a starting point in considering choice of points, choice of couching/expressing ideas in more friendly terms, and being aware of sensitivity displayed by the other person.
Sorry for offending you, but my only choice is to apologize as have NOT meant to give offense, and hope for your help inlearning HOW that I did so.
I do appreciate that you see some of my difficulties in handling english after 44 years of total immersion in swedish culture. So I do have difficulty with English, as is natural.
So I appeal to your good nature, and if you will your christian nature, or whatever religion you believe—you haven’t said.
I do have some friends here, whom I appreciate very much.
But what counts now is asking for your help.
Will you give it? Please.
Otteray Scribe,
Glad to find your position clearly expressed.
Would you care to offer anything constructive which might aid me?
I note, re ElsieDL, that you offer several reservation (two at least) re our presence in Afghanistan, and thus potential disagreement between you two.
How did I do it wrong in asking ElsieDL for more info on her involvement, etc there?
Now, you as a psychiatrist, should be able to see that there is a chicken and egg question not clear to me as to how you see passive-aggressive.
Being abused from birth, my solution was to abuse in return.
It worked to the degree that children avoided me, diminishing my pain, but making normal socialization process impossible. This worsened the isolation (total) and reinforced conflicts and my distrust of all.
This can be followed since 3 years of age, and at no point in my life has the socializaion been able to proceed on a normal course
In the last 3 months I have been able to feel trust, not 100 percent, but almost anyway. And perhaps you can appreciate the fear connected with taking that step with each of the persons involved, starting with my own therapist.
Trust and love are two of the most important factors as I perceive it in socialization and social contact.
My daily efforts is to contact people IRL, mostly strangers, to practice. It works better and better aa feedback confirms. I can manage small talk, radiate genuine good will which is replied to etc.
I have acquired friends for the first time, etc. A momentous thing for me. I want it to continue developing.
Part of the impulse to be aggressive is based on fear. And that is basically what I feel coming here to JT’s for the first time.
I have made so many “starts” in my life leaving my defeats/failures behind me. And at each and every new place, I do not wait and size up the situation, make small advances, but jump into the middle of the swimming pool, splashing water on all around on those sunning themselves, and I loudly proclaim here I am. Not good. But no other course has ever occurred until last autumn, so recently, but that was for IRL situations; not at blogs. The feedback is immediate and apparent IRL.
Thus the fear causing tension can be assuaged relatively rapidly.
The fear at a blog, with no faces or bodies to read is more difficult to read, especially for someone with NO experience—-which is difficult to believe, but is TRUE. Just as I have not “corresponded” IRL, I have not in letters. My language is what I learned in the classroom, not in associating with the other kids. That and reading, and with a mother similarly handicapped, there being in effect no form of emotional exchange between us. Nor actually much else either.
Now I have asked you as what? Professional therapist, psychiatrist, fellow human, experienced viewer of disturbed human development????
I have asked for help. That’s it. Will you?
Why and to what purpose the decision was made to ignore me by a group, is an issue which can wait until later.
What is important to me is to get your head turned around so you can perceive me as one needing help, and not one who is fervently bound to using passive/aggressive as a life style.
And a few tips, if they could be called so, on the technique on expressing potential disagreement in an agreeable fashion would be helpful. You did it well in your comments to ElsieDL.
How can I write openly and apparently unaffected about my life’s painfulness. Well, easy perhaps.
I’ve been doing it, enforced by my failures, and having to endure the punishments and trying to do what is not clear. But at 11 I was EEGed as OK, had six weeks counseling through the Red Feather, and my conflicts and explaining continued, with periods of therapy at wide intervals beginning at 26.
Sparselly and mostly ineffectual as no one understood the basic problem. Even now my therapist has difficulty understanding the barrenness of what is inside me and the lack of human contact.
If you have read this far, thanks.
Following up the thing with ElsieDL and your saying to ignore me should be met in a constructive way.
This was my attempt at it. What will be yours?
ElsieDL,
Let me clarify my meaning/intent or ask what is yet unanswered with some importance I feel. My old stuff and your old stuff marked by ==== and new questions by ———-similarly above and below.
=================
Your experience in Afghanistan is not clear as to what activities and level of contact you had, nor your language skills.=========
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Do you speak with any fluency any of the three major languages, or did you have your own interpreter with you or were you forced to use what was offered at each point on the way.
We are both non-experts on the UN and each comments as he/she sees it. No apparent conflict.
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================
YOU WROTE: “The Afghan Constitution gives both girls and boys equal access to education and believe it or not, millions of both are now going to school. Two friends of mine I worked with while in Afghanistan would beg to differ strongly with you as they have been living and working there with the Ministry of Education and writing the curriculum for Kindergarten through high school and have worked with teams to train thousands and thousands of teachers, both male and female, including hands-on science, one of the subjects I taught there.”============END YOUR QUOTE
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I say now.
What sources give you confidence in these figures in education? Is the education solely madhrasah or equivalent. What is the level of participation, particularly with respect to women in the communities? And do your field observations confirm this figure?
As for money, my view is based on the persistance of corruption leading aid moneys into the pockets of the leaders. Perhaps your friends could offer other info. Please do come with it, instead of only referring to them as a rebuttal to what I am unsure. I am open to facts. I welcome them, that is where my opinions come from.—————
=============YOU SAID:
As far as the attacks, from among which ALEC, on the rights of women here in the US, I don’t need you to point them out, as I am following any developments like anti-abortion (and other birth control methods) closely.
==============
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I asked for yóur opinion. But I was/am aware that many here spend time berating the world ie Afghanistan around them for their failures, I asked if you had that in mind that we have our failings too. I think ours in fact are worse, as we are more fortunate in terms of schooling, etc. So why did you think I was telling you about something you are well aware of?
Don’t get it but can understand you would be irritated.
Guess my direct manner is at fault. Hmmm!
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Comment: With 25 years as a teacher I understand you and your interest better. What languages do you speak? I speak only half english and half swedish, and much smaller fractions spanish, italian and french. Did you get any hands on experience with negotiations with local jurgas on setting up schools, school nurse function, hygiene and health as subjects to be taught, school attendance requirements as to frequency. etc. Or are these dictated by local government with the backing of regional governors or of Kabul?
I have alway actively supported education as the solution to all our problems, and those of the world as well.
I have seen Singapore emerge thanks due to education, and the list of other countries is long. Here we seem to be dug in so that education has become something which we can’t cover here—a big problem in other words.
Looking forward to cooperating with you where possible and helpful.
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R.I.P.
Well said, idealist707.
I could tell that you and ElsieDL were misunderstanding each other, at times. I hope that your latest effort will relieve any hurt feelings.
We thank Elsie for her humanitarian work.
So sad. How do we know they were ‘Taliban’? I am not trying to make a point here… just genuinely curious. It sounds both strange and ‘convenient’ that both men were supposedly killed by a ‘third Taliban commander’. It goes on to say they are ‘still looking for people involved’, leaves one to wonder how committed ‘governor’ Salangi is to stopping this sort of thing…
I’ve been gone a while, and commented a couple of times (under Chris H., this is CLH). I love to see the debate still going strong
. I’ve been out of it for a bit, going through chemo (for a non cancer heart issue, oddly enough) so I’ve been loopier than a republican at a PETA meeting.
ElsieDL, you have written very well about the challenges facing women in Afghanistan. I was there as a military member, and the most lasting memories I have there is of some horrific abuses of women in that culture. Thank you very, very much for continuing one of the most difficult, dangerous, and heart breaking jobs that anyone could ever ask for. My duty was as a killer, your is as a savior, and I would much rather have had your job (though I suspect it’s a bit more stressful than mine ever was). Keep up the good fight!
O.S. @ 0935-
Military commanders (and I mean this as a genuine observation, and of course subject to bias error) seem to have been given the same treatment here as politicians. While their job can include political acts, and while the can include politcal policies in their decision making, ultimatley they don’t decide the overarching strategy involved. That is a politcal function, and while US officers are no less prone to error than any other, they are indeed very well educated and trained people, especially at the flag rank. Those of you quoting Sun Tzu might better direct that to the politcal decisions being made by the people stateside, because if the US Military was given an unfettered hand in defeating an enemy, that enemy would disappear from the earth. I say that not as a braggard or in hyperbole, but as a statement of fact. Even using non-nuclear means, simply killing people is a relativley straightforward and simple task. If the military were given the objective, “make the Afghanistan nation/Taliban unable to in any way threaten the US or its interests to any extent” and were then left to execute that policy, there would not be an Afghanistan citizen left alive today. The difference in combat power between the US Military and the tribes is so vast that it really defies comprehension. The current problems there are because politics and changing and stupid polictical motivations are involved, and because in the end, we’re not actually monsters out to eradicate an entire race. Sun Tzu would be aghast at our policy of discriminating between civilian and combatant, and of trying to rebuild or aid the in any way. He was a brutal, harsh, and murderous sociopath, let’s not forget.
But I may be arguing a rather un-important point. The main point is that I agree with most everything else said- the focus should have been on mitigating the Taliban and Al-Quada’s ability to recruit and arm themselves using limited military action, followed by an investment in their infrastructure and their economy. When people are prosperous, they tend not to be quite so fanatical in their religious beliefs. (Tendency, not a rule, of course.) Education, infrastruture, and rule of law are the keys to any successful and humanitarian culutre, and simply blowing up small bits and pieces of a country will do nothing to further any of those areas. So I’m going to go back on what I’ve said in other posts and say get the heck out now. We can’t do any more there, not with military personnel. People like Elsie, and people within that culture who want to make a difference, are the key. Our only role should be giving them the resources they need.