Collateral Damage of the Police

Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger

This past week Professor Turley had two posts regarding the innocent victim of a police shooting: http://jonathanturley.org/2012/07/17/florida-police-pound-on-wrong-door-looking-for-suspect-without-identifying-themselves-thenves-then-shoot-and-kill-innocent-man-who-answers-the-door-with-weapon/#comments  and http://jonathanturley.org/2012/07/20/report-police-allegedly-increased-suspects-alleged-crime-after-shooting-third-person/#more-51907  These can fairly be called the latest installments of an ongoing series that details deaths and injuries sustained by people who are the victims of policing errors. There were a fair number of comments all lamenting yet another example of careless police work, in tandem with a propensity to shoot first and hope for the best. After awhile the comments petered out because this instance is but one of many that have been publicized by Professor Turley. He tries to focus attention on what seems to be blatant disregard for the rights of individual citizens. After all, what does one say after expressing their outrage at egregious behavior and impotently raging against the expected ensuing cover-ups? Emotionally, I personally feel horror and outrage when something like this happens and I desire justice in the form of stiff punishment for the avoidable errors that took an innocent life. Yet this occurs time and again as outrage simmers and yet another story captures our attention. It seems that nothing is ever really done with the macro-cosmic problem, even when on the individual level, though very occasionally, the people responsible are held to account. When I thought about the issue of police killing the wrong person it occurred to me that this is not something that has recently developed in our country, or indeed the rest of the world. In fact it seems to me that such occurrences represent a norm of human history that stems from how the entire concept of policing first came about. Policing had its origins in protecting wealth, property and the status quo of autocratic authority. 

Historically, whatever name was given to them in each society, the police function was one of maintaining the established order. The edicts of the Kings had the force of law and in the feudal manner the authority spread top down through the layers of local nobility. The vast majority of the people had no rights except to obey the established authority. Justice was swift and harsh, often dispensed on the spot by those with the authority of weapons, serving the policing function. The elements of an individual’s rights under the law in our tradition date back at least from the Magna Carta and English Common Law. The Magna Carta itself though was a definition of the rights of the nobility, rather than the common folk, with elements that found their way into the common Law. However, the concept of “police power” remained essentially protection of the rights of the Nobility against any usurping of those rights by the common folk. The Sheriff of Nottingham, in Robin Hood, was less a public law enforcer and more a protector of the prerogatives of the nobility. Robin Hood after all was less a revolutionary and more a poacher and highwayman.

With the inception of our Constitution came the delineated concept that each citizen, no matter what their status had certain inalienable rights. Thus the establishment of our Republic was novel in that all citizens were assumed to have rights that should be protected under law and therefore assumed that their would be some legal authority empowered to supply that protection.

In the newly formed U.S., localities had developed a system that included Sheriffs and Constables. There was also the U.S. Marshall’s services which was developed in 1789, and represented the second oldest Federal Law Enforcement Agency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marshals_Service after the U.S. customs Service. The Wikipedia link provides some interesting facts as to the services performed by the U.S. Marshal’s which included apprehending criminals in the “Old West”, catching runaway slaves and breaking strikes of the early labor movement. All these functions can be seen as protecting private property and privilege to a far greater extent than protecting the average individual citizen.  It is not merely myth that when Marshal’s deputized posses to chase rustlers or other miscreants, the hanging tree was used more often than the courtroom for dispensing justice.

We see this “policing” on the local level too. For much of our history the various local, or State constabulary’s were appointed and served at the pleasure of the wealthy powers that led the Towns, Cities and States. Some of the history of the famed lawman Wyatt Earp, as detailed in Richard Slotkin’s highly informative work on the “Old West” “Gunfighter Nation”, shows this “hero” in various roles as Marshal and Sheriff. Earp and his counterparts were less enforcers of the law and far more representatives of special interests. The storied “Gunfight at the O.K. Corral“, was according to some historians caused by a personal vendetta Earp had against Ike Clanton and not an attempt at law enforcement and was in essence an ambush. This was the context in which law enforcement developed in this country and it was on a distinct, yet related track to the development of American jurisprudence.

If we look at specific history we see law enforcement in the role of not only seeking miscreants, but also in directly and openly serving the “Establishment“ of Wealth and Corporate power. Early labor movements were routinely opposed by local, State and Federal police agencies intervening in non-violent strikes. Slaves were routinely captured to be returned to their “masters”. in other localities. In Los Angeles as it grew with the success of Hollywood, men with experience as enforcers of “Jim Crow” in the post-bellum South, were imported to ride herd on the Mexican and growing black populations, enforcing a de facto segregation on the City. This occurred in Detroit in fighting the United Auto Workers and also in repressing the Blacks lured from the South by the explosion of the automobile industry. Our history is replete with this usage of our various police forces to oppressively maintain the interests of the powers that be.

Whether it involved Black Americans, Native Americans, Latinos, the various waves of ethnicities immigrating to America, or just plain poor people, the function of the policing power at all levels has been to “keep them in their place”. Though in some instances like “Jim Crow” in the South, there were specific laws to empower keeping Black people in their place, normatively the message for the police to perform this oppression was couched more in covert terms. It was a tacit understanding for those who took the job and was reinforced as they were inculcated into the “fraternity” by the veteran officers. In the public front the tabloid newspapers often publicly called for this repression, ignoring the fact that it often had no legal basis. So we see that despite our Constitution and our Courts, policing throughout our history and up until today has always had a covert mission of “protecting” the interests of those with power against those perceived to be somehow less than true citizens.

Another example of what I see as the usage of law enforcement officers (LEO’s) to assert the interests of established power has been in the area of “morality“. LEO‘s have been involved in “fighting“ prostitution; banned heterosexual sex acts (widely defined sodomy laws); homosexuality; segregation, marriage between races: abortion; prescription medications; alcohol: and of course the failed “The War on Drugs”.  It has always seemed to me that these “victimless” crimes should never have been legislated, but demagogic politicians have always succeeded by presenting themselves as defenders of a moral code, while religious institutions have felt the need to impose their concept of morality upon those who would not conform to it. Thus working hand-in-hand with political demagogues to develop a law based on someone’s tenuous notion of morality. We have seen that this notion of morality enforcement intersects with the needs to keep Blacks “in there place” As I wrote here: http://jonathanturley.org/2011/11/26/the-incarceration-of-black-men-in-america/

So we have a situation where there is our Criminal Law defined and developed over centuries that presents itself as a bastion of fairness in treating all citizens equally. Juxtapose this with a policing concept that LEO’s are the defenders of the social fabric of our society against the incipient “criminal element” and it would appear that we have a system of justice that is viable. However, we all know if we are honest with ourselves, to paraphrase Orwell “That some animals are more equal than others”.

While it is true that the overwhelming majority of LEO’s are drawn from the middle or lower economic classes, anyone who would take them for being stupid is a fool. Perhaps more so than most, the LEO’s understand the economic/political realities of our society. They know that if they come down too hard on someone with power their jobs and pensions will be at stake. They also understand very well that they are being given mixed messages when it comes to enforcing the law. The public message is upholding the law in all its pristine fairness. The covert message in almost every venue of this country is that LEO’s should do whatever it takes to meet the duties they are handed. It has happened so often in our history that a particular murder case will be splashed across headlines in a given locale and the pressure to solve it from the Mayor on down is to find a culprit regardless of their guilt. The LEO’s understanding comes down to it’s either my neck, or someone else’s if I don’t get results.

These covert messages inevitably lead many LEO’s to a corrupted understanding of the duties they are to perform. Seriously though, in the context of our society where billionaires can bend the financial rules with impunity and get away with it, can we really blame some of our LEO’s from becoming corrupted? When one spends their working life dealing with the corrupt elements of our society, yet knows that some of these elements are out of bounds, how long can most maintain their integrity? The world becomes as they perceive it and the only truth is being true to oneself and those one loves. A corollary to this is that the only people who can understand LEO’s, are other LEO’s. From this the unwritten rule to protect their fellow officers becomes sacrosanct.

That our police are corrupt is not due to the fact that we don’t weed out the “bad ones” at the Academy, but that our entire legal/political system is responsible for corrupting many of them. Our American system as it works in actuality is that there are many who are immune to the strictures of law and ethics. This breeds distrust and cynicism. In fact, as a former civil servant and as someone who has always in my work tried to walk an ethical path, there have been many times when I’ve wondered if these ethics represented my stupidity at playing the game of life. This is especially true when supporting my family and raising my children has been the most important thing I personally believe I’ve been doing in my life. On numerous occasion my ethical compass has prevented me from progressing up the career ladder, or even from earning enough money to support my family as I would have liked to support them. Can I honestly expect more from people who choose to be LEO’s, only to find that the underlying messages as to their duties are quite the opposite of what they’ve been led to believe?

I believe though that there are many LEO’s who do take their duties to the Law and the Constitution seriously. What appears a sad fact to me is that those who do walk the lawful path are those who find themselves limited in advancement and threatened by their cohorts. I offer this not as a justification of these unlawful and sometimes really stupid acts committed by the police. My thoughts do not slake my outrage. Yet it is a question of where the ultimate blame lies and I accuse our system where wealth and power trumps all. In this weeks outrage I believe the officers involved should be severely punished, though I doubt that will happen and believe in any event that in behaving so callously they too are victims of our system in America. As the cliché goes the rich get richer and everyone else gets screwed.

Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger.

34 thoughts on “Collateral Damage of the Police

  1. Good work.

    Not as uplifting as usual from this writer. But reality, truthfully portrayed, seldom is uplifting.

    The existence of “uncorrupted police” can be proposed, but as an anathema to the corps requirments of layalty to the members and the other unwritten codes would make their life troublesome for those with families—–and thus speak against their existence in reality.

    How many MikeS have we encountered? Does his rarity support my contention, as does hís professed career?

    I will only take the occasion to push my contention that there exists a national system of assuring recognition by police of “protected” persons, who are above the law. In my opinion, it is probable that this is encoded on your driver’s license.

    It’s existence would greatly ease the life of a LEO facing routine encounters where ID checks are made.
    And it would be a code used in all states.

    Perhaps?

  2. Yet it is a question of where the ultimate blame lies and I accuse our system where wealth and power trumps all.

    The adage “it takes a village to raise a child” also indicates, then, that in fact society does have an impact on its children.

    That would mean that a “system where wealth and power trumps all” is going to skew thinking in that merit-less direction.

    I became aware of the case where that can even be fatal to civilization itself:

    But what all these climate numbers make painfully, usefully clear is that the planet does indeed have an enemy – one far more committed to action than governments or individuals. Given this hard math, we need to view the fossil-fuel industry in a new light. It has become a rogue industry, reckless like no other force on Earth. It is Public Enemy Number One to the survival of our planetary civilization. “Lots of companies do rotten things in the course of their business – pay terrible wages, make people work in sweatshops – and we pressure them to change those practices,” says veteran anti-corporate leader Naomi Klein, who is at work on a book about the climate crisis. “But these numbers make clear that with the fossil-fuel industry, wrecking the planet is their business model. It’s what they do.”

    (MOMCOM’s Mass Suicide & Murder Pact). This is plain talk that must be used to uncover these events that otherwise will remain hidden in plain sight.

    So, thanks Mike for talking straight (“Yet it is a question of where the ultimate blame lies and I accuse our system where wealth and power trumps all.“).

  3. Our current society is a two-tier system: Government and civilians. Government has monopolies in which the civilians are compelled by law to use, with legal restrictions against potential competitors. The best example of why this system is inherently flawed is the government-monopolized police.

    When you allow some people to have that artificial authority over others, with guns and badges, in this government monopoly in community policing and security, you are saying that this group of people may be above the law.

    The answer lies in de-monopolizing community policing and security, and allowing competition on an open free market of security providers, and allow volunteers to do their own neighborhood policing.

    And no, this does not invite the George Zimmermans of the world to go out and stalk black people and shoot them for no good reason. On the contrary, in a system in which everyone – each member of the community – is equal and accountable under the rule of law, the irresponsible ones would not take such risks.

    See Hans Hoppe: “State or Private Law”

    http://mises.org/daily/5270

  4. Very interesting article, Mike. More years ago than I would care to remember (or enumerate), I made the mistake of attending my 10th year HS reunion. What that surprised me most was the fact that about one third of my graduating class of just over 800 had become LEO or lawyers.Of this number, far and away, the largest number were the LEOs. They were also notable because, for the most part, they had graduated in the lower quarter of the class and, they were the people who were the ‘jocks’, and the people that were considered the class bullies. To put it another way, they were the group who had the ‘social standing’ and the influence and ‘power’ that accompanies it. As a result, they slotted themselves into careers that allowed them to keep that perceived advantage. I don’t know if these people continued in their respective careers as they were in HS, but I DO know that, were I hiring for the police department or the DPS, I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t have hired ANY of them (at least the ones I knew).

    Scott- >’The answer lies in de-monopolizing community policing and security, and allowing competition on an open free market of security providers, and allow volunteers to do their own neighborhood policing’.’…a system in which everyone – each member of the community – is equal and accountable under the rule of law, the irresponsible ones would not take such risks.'< MIGHT and I say MIGHT be possible. However, we are dealing with human beings and as long as one person chooses to assert power and authority over another, community policing of the sort you advocate will not work. Power and money corrupt.

  5. Mike,

    With a few exceptions….the Russians have a very similar constitution….. It’s just how it’s interpreted….. Until the justices can feel the pain that’s inflicted on the average or in most cases the underclass then things will only get worse…. Bastille Day was just last weekend…..hmmmmm

  6. Scott L.,

    A novel suggestion here. A new example of privatization of governmental monopolies.

    The number of crippling questions are endless.

    Who will qualify, supervise, be accountable for, judicially and admistratively integrated so as to pursue crime investigation in a secure and surfacely just manner, etc etc etc.

    Wher shall the forders of jurisdiction be set? The coordination between, the rules for hot pursuit, etc, etc.

    You must be kidding. Or more probably trolling.

    We seem to get more trollers on weekends.

    Sources? Other blawgs. Weekend amusement for law students, clerks tiring of giving obeisance to judges and nicks to stupid lawyers,……many possible sources.

    BTW, is it your real last name. I just love it. Please give the background to it, not you personally but historically.
    Incongruosly combined with the first name. You should see mine. ROTFLOL.

  7. I will try again. Everything in moderation.
    When I was going through the reincarnation rigamorole I was sitting there with the group awaiting my audience with Saint Peter’s stand-in (he always has a stand-in) and this guy was going on and on about being called “collateral damage” in the newspaper after he had been shot and killed. We couldnt quiet him down or steer him to a better rap for the most important one that he was to make in the next 17 dog years or so. He wanted to come back as a dog, but we all knew that there was no way. This motor mouth was gonna have to come back as a humanoid.

    So, he gets up to the stand-in for Saint Peter who looked like Mel Brookes and right away starts his rap about getting shot by some guy named Leo who was looking for some punk and how he was termed “collateral damage” in the Saint Louis Post Dispatch. Mel looks at him and without a blink, a wink, or a smile says, “And what had you put up for collateral?” Well the room broke out laughing and new guy on the block got sent back to planet earth to some designated Limbo town outside New York called Newark.
    Mel said later in the session that people in certain parts of the globe like the United States think that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. That is true, says Mel. And aint none of you gonna hit the shores as aliens. But as for keeping the Leos from shooting you, I cant help ya.”

  8. “Justice was swift and harsh, often dispensed on the spot by those with the authority of weapons, serving the policing function.”

    Whenever a LEO arrests someone, then scares the bejesus out of them,
    hurts them by assaulting them, handcuffs them so tightly that it causes pain or injury etc., those acts are done so as administrative punishment for having been arrested.

    POLICE – n. armed force for protection and paricipation

  9. Mike.

    Another great post.

    May I suggest a term for what you describe, Army of occupation policing. Perhaps an internet abbreviation AOOP would be appropriate.

  10. Carlyle,

    While AOOP would be appropriate, I would suggest that the expected police function would be more endemic. They exist almost everywhere as part of the social structure that maintains the status quo of hierarchical privilege. The knowledge of that fact in so-called “free countries”
    serves to corrupt many by its’ covertly giving the message that the “ideals” of the nation are specious.

    BTW, good to hear from you again it’s been awhile.

  11. OT? Next day post:

    Getting tired of American media (due to the Aurora thing and the sameness), I checked Google to see what RT was offering.

    http://www.rt.com/news/officer-rifle-video-israel-139/

    Benyamin Netanyahu regreted and called down on this indident shown here.

    And what conclusions can we draw? Draw yours.

    I know Danes as almost professional “in your face” provocateurs, but perhaps cooling it in front of a camera would have been a better non-response. Take him into the “holding roon” and knee his kidneys until he pisses blood. That is what that can happen here in Paradise Sweden.

    I wonder what was left of the victim’s face after that brutality? Quick as a snake, and no pejorative meaning meant. Just an adequate analogy speedwise.

    I did not comment another comment when it was posted (here?), but the tale of the 10th HS reunion and the low achiever bullies choice of careers in LEO was a tale awakening horror in me.

    It would have been interesting to see how much confirmation is available in serious studies.

  12. Bill McW,

    Having once been handcuffed behind my back for a minor ($15) traffic violation, for three hours, I can testify that the pain is awful. Worse I was then locked in a cell in my underwear for four more hours because Suffolk County, NY wouldn’t sccept my AAA $3000 guaranteed bail card. This was because I had failed to pay a two-year old ticket for not making a right turn as I was stuck in a right turn lane due to traffic. Two weeks later when I went to court I carried $1000 in cash fearing the worst after my original treatment. Pled guilty and the bored judge fined me $15.

    That treatment leads me to get your point completely.

  13. The link provided by Idealist707 made me do a little mental exercise. “Let’s see,” said I, “how the international community would have regarded the Zimmerman/Martin situation had we changed up the environment a little bit.”

    I made George Zimmerman into a duly authorized 28-year-old member of the Israeli Defense Force. He had gone in to do his 2-year stint at age 18 and stayed there, but he had not advanced very much in the next decade.

    I made Trayvon Martin a 17-year-old Palestinian kid who was visiting his father at his father’s girlfriend’s house.

    It was drizzling out; Trayvon was wearing jeans and a hoodie and white sneakers.

    George saw Trayvon and phoned in, saying he thought Trayvon might be a suicide bomber.

    HQ told George they would come check it out, and that meantime, he did “not need to” follow Trayvon.

    George decided he should follow Trayvon anyway — maybe if he prevented a suicide bomber from killing a bunch of people he would get his promotion after all.

    Within the next three minutes, he had shot the kid dead.

    What will the press do with that? Do you think it will take a massive PR movement to get folks interested in the unprovoked murder of a young unarmed Palestinian kid whose only crime was being profiled by a gung-ho cowboy Israeli soldier who thought he could enhance his career with a “kill”?

    And will anybody believe the soldier when (and if) he says that the kid ambushed him, jumped on him, broke his nose, slammed his head, made him think he was gonna die? Tell me about that part.

  14. This Leo had created a LED and it is because this particular Leo is afflicted with DKNABB. When a person is in law enforcement and “does not know nuthin bout birthin babies” or how to perform the job then he creates a Law Enforcement Debacle. When the Chief of Police or the Prosecutor sees an LED come across the computer screen then he/she knows that he/she is in DDD or Deep Do Do.
    As in this case you have LEO, DKNNABB creating LED and resulting in DDD. When LEO goes to the right door and kills the right person then everything is JAKE. Then it is self defense, defense of others, wrong side of the fence and Good Dog Leo.

  15. “They exist almost everywhere as part of the social structure that maintains the status quo of hierarchical privilege”.

    Mike Spindell, These police powers allowed by the hierarchy are ultimately allowed (in our democracy) because the people accept them. Occasionally the line is so far stepped over a public outcry is heard and appropriate action is taken. Penn st is a current example of a hierarchy stepping too far.

    I repeat a quote told to me. “You know, you can think and think and think for yourself, but sometimes you just give up and let other people think for you”.

    It is a mindset of some to hold authority as “sacred” How easy life becomes when right and wrong are decisions made by others and I only have to follow. With my acceptance of authority I am treated to parades honoring my faith in “the system” I can feel good and vicariously thrill at the success of others my devotion has helped and encouraged.

    An AYE (for authority) for an EYE (mine) makes everyone blind.

  16. Malisha,

    As so often you leave me confused. You did not ask me but as the poster of the link, I feel only responsibility for the link, neither its contents nor your interesting change of persons invcolved.

    You tell me what you think would have happened there in Israel, West Bank or in USA. Honestly don’t know.
    According to some reports most IDF conscripts exit after two years and go to India to smoke Hashish to recuperate….from what was not said.

  17. David Blauw,

    You wrote:
    “Mike Spindell, These police powers allowed by the hierarchy are ultimately allowed (in our democracy) because the people accept them. Occasionally the line is so far stepped over a public outcry is heard and appropriate action is taken.”

    You are a smart even briliant guy. I don’t believe you don’t understand that people don’t accept, except in a passive way—-they have no choice otherwise.

    Besided the outcries of the general public result only in cosmetic repairs and PR efforts by the hierarchy.

    I interpret it to be MikeS’ meaning that the LEO is charged to protect the hierarchy. And is solely accountable to them—-not to us in any way.

    I can not explain his maltreatment otherwise. Unlesss, it was an expression of anti-semitism or bad digestion after their lunch break. Arbitrary exercise of police powers seem to be our fate.

  18. Super article Mike.
    Your comment about your time in the slammer :) reminded me of my arrest in May of 1970 for unlawful assembly in Jackson County, Illinois. I was watching a post Kent State demonstration that turned ugly and was caught up in an attack by city police and State police. They did not go after the people causing damage to the city stores, but came after us students a few hundred feet removed from the situation. While they did not use their guns, the pepper spray and their liberal use of their right sticks still sticks in my mind.
    I think the police serve a useful purpose for our society, but they are indeed controlled by that part of society that has the most possessions to protect. He who has the gold makes the rules, I guess.

  19. Another instance of police over reach with civil liberties and public health consequences

    http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/12552-condom-seizures-from-sex-workers-are-undoing-years-of-progress-on-hivaids

    excerpts:
    Police in major American cities are using condoms as evidence of sex work, thereby discouraging their use.

    he International Aids conference, held in the US for the first time in 22 years next week, is a chance for the country to celebrate its contribution to HIV and Aids prevention. Yet in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York and Washington DC, state police forces are stopping, searching and arresting sex workers – and using condoms found on them as evidence to support prostitution charges, undermining decades of HIV and Aids harm reduction work in the process.
    .
    .
    .
    Identifying condoms as evidence of sex work is just another way in which the US police endangers some of society’s most vulnerable. In 2010, a city government transgender working group in Los Angeles recommended that local police stop confiscating condoms as a matter of safety. The force ignored them. Since then, Human Rights Watch has found alarming evidence of police abusing and “defacing” transgender sex workers. In all cities, police profiling gives them recourse to regularly stop and search any transgender individual, irrespective of profession, on the basis that he or she is “likely” to be soliciting.

  20. OK, Idealist, I get your question but frankly can’t remember too much about the link or my reaction to it.

    This much, though, I can piece together:

    You were reading a thread on police-on-citizen violence here in the US.

    It is a big enough problem here in the US to really draw attention.

    You got tired of reading US News and turned to see what could be found going on in Israel. (?)

    You found, predictably, that an armed authority figure in Israel was abusing an unarmed protester. It is not exactly, as we say in Hebrew, a question of “How is this night different from all other nights?” is it?

    So I thought, two things: (a) Why is the Israeli-on-protester violence so significant to this issue of out-of-control American police brutality? Or, more important, why is Israeli misconduct of any sort so important to every other story world wide? and (b) Why (in my own responses) do I react to this and what does it mean to me to see the analogies that are not strictly analogous at all?

    So I took something I knew and I set it up to be an analogy.

    I don’t know what would happen under today’s government. In past governments, there would have been an investigation and the officer would have been punished — now, I don’t know — haven’t been following their stuff that closely.

  21. Malisha,
    Perhaps an American ex-pat living in Sweden was followed by an evil looking Jew in full Hasidic regalia. The ex-pat went to his large Arab friend,
    who obliged by beating up the Jew. What is your answer to that?

  22. MikeS, you first because you are so simple (minded?).

    Wish there were some here. I would have long ago become friends with them, and THEY would have shown me kosher shop I’m searching for.

    If reading see further my return comment to Malisha, a jewess who has full control on her rightful fears.

  23. “Wish there were some here. I would have long ago become friends with them, and THEY would have shown me kosher shop I’m searching for.”

    ID707,

    The problem I have with you is that either you lack the courage of your convictions and so cache your passive-aggressive vitriol in obscure language, or that your skills with English have deteriorated due to your long years in Sweden. Say what you mean ID707 in short, declarative sentences that don’t allow you to weasel out of what the obscure thrust of your argument seems to be. Understand this, while I suspect otherwise, I am not able to accuse you of anything but an inability to clearly articulate what you really mean. That is your fault, or motive as the case may be, do to the way you write.

  24. Malisha,

    Sheesh. As usual you give back considerations and thoughts five layers deeper than mine.

    One, I was reading and got tired of the familiarity, someone mentioned info channels and I thought of one I’ve never visited unless linked by another person here. RT Russian television, who were said to deliver among others a series by Julian Assange interviewing Noam Chomsky, etc.

    Voilá. Headline: Bicycle protesters gang-raped by IDF……nnnnnnnoooooo not really. Got you awake did I not.

    Why did I choose to post it? Because the IDF officer’s attack reminded of so many US LEO’s tactics when getting in your face from protestors. Only here in the USA they would not dare do what the Dane did. The Dane got a brutal smack, here in USA it might end in death.

    As noted in my comment, the Israeli PM Netanyu had immediately said this was not IDF acceptable nor Israeli acceptable conduct by the officer, a Lt.Col.

    So if MikeS see anti-semitism or anti-whatever he is right only in so part as there was intended to say simply:

    The brutalities of the LEOs are so similar. Does that help us understand them better.

    I NEVER go looking for Israel or Jewish news. Is that a suggestion? But looking at news leaders can be giving.

    IMPORTANT:
    Your words here summarize the questions which have concerned me as to: How does a jew experience this threatening world. Constantly linked as an example, etc. Read your own words again. I love them.

    “So I thought, two things: (a) Why is the Israeli-on-protester violence so significant to this issue of out-of-control American police brutality? Or, more important, why is Israeli misconduct of any sort so important to every other story world wide? and (b) Why (in my own responses) do I react to this and what does it mean to me to see the analogies that are not strictly analogous at all?”

    I was not attempting to draw aqn analogy other than one mentioned by others at the thread. ie the common task of LEOs (protection of the minority of one percent) and their common mental framework.
    And this the world over—-well anyway in this case a random landing in Israel.

    Not using Israel as anything other than a modern democracy (in name as ours is too). The Jewish/Israeli connection was not in my mind.

    I know MikeS has difficulty believing that, but if he met me in person he would be rapidly convinced that I don’t understand the sensitivity of these things to you, and the need for carefullness in all such references…. requiring extensive reservations etc.

    I am more attuned to the muslim side because they are available for contact here. So is not true of Jews here, they don’t walk the streets with their families or buddies as the arabs do, arabs being quite assured of their rightful place in society. Nice to see.

    But I see, any time the word Israel or Jew comes up, the whole body and mind of the jew goes on alert status. Attack??? or even Attack!!!!!

    Now you, Malisha, make me wish we had a famous sayings permanent thread where each weeks winner could be posted. This one of yours should be there I feel.

    Along with MikeS’s latest. Even abominable ones should have a thread of their own too.

  25. MiikeS,

    Thanks for the latest. Let me say I am working on it.
    I have identified two causes earlier and will not discuss them again now. Certainly several more causes exist too.

    I too wish to use simple declarative sentences.
    To ease understanding. To stand for my meaning, not hide my meanings. They are discernible but require some skill not all have, and that is not a brag as a defenxe.

    I retreat into this again after being attacked(?) by you. And also, in this case, fear of treading into territory where I, as an American, am assumed having knowledge (the jewish question etc), but where I don’t for reasons earlier discussed.

    Again a long sentence, but no problem for you I earnestly hope.

    Look at the Belgian/American lady’s last comment for a good example of the problem I have. She was tired and apologized for her faults. Her last ones were examples in sentence structure, sequencing etc that I have too. It goes with the language I have been trying to use correctly for 44 years. Swedish sentence order does not follow the american. Having lived in that, writing in English requires 50 percent of my conscious effort.

    The lady succeeds better than I do, but then she is perhaps more talented than I. No matter.

    I am aware of this problem, but forgetful. Thanks for the reminder.

  26. MikeS,

    Here is an alternative by myself:

    idealist707
    1, July 23, 2012 at 4:21 am
    Someone mentioned Paris Hilton as the next headline grabber. TRUE.

    But I was thinking instead of how we need our spice, our dose of entertainment. The need to expand the envelope to obtain the same chock effect. And our willingness to drink the concoction over and over again.

    My point???

    In the meanwhile we ignore far greater killers, caused by far greater evil, and do less to remove the pootential cause of statistically certain future deaths at random.

    What is that? Industrial pollution. It is causing cancer deaths of unusual types, traceable to working or living in the vicinity

    It is an old story, centuries old but still with us and still deadly. If that branch of your kin lived there they are effected. Listen to youu family and friends.

    Not very entertaining. The guilty are skillful at hiding. Their defenders too. And for us it is kind of like playing russian roulette, by all.

    Cleanups are cosmetic. Just as EPA has become. And FDA too. Agencies to protect the criminal from suits.

    Why now? A frinds relatives have all got bile duct cancer diagnoses. And like all cancer patients they ask why me. In some cases we can get a general answer, but in this case no one to sue. And god can not be sued nor the EPA (I guess).

  27. “But I see, any time the word Israel or Jew comes up, the whole body and mind of the jew goes on alert status.”

    ID707,

    The “mind of the jew” really?

    “I am more attuned to the muslim side because they are available for contact here. So is not true of Jews here, they don’t walk the streets with their families or buddies as the arabs do, arabs being quite assured of their rightful place in society. Nice to see.”

    Well considering that in anti-Jewish attacks Sweden ranks third in the world after Germany and Austria, perhaps Jews find walking the streets unsafe. I don’t know perhaps it’s the air, or the Aryan in Sweden that causes it? Now as far as Jews being on the lookout for negativity in the world perhaps it is in our genetic heritage, since those that were on the alert survived. Also I think context is everything and this discussion re: Jews and Israel twixt you and I began on another thread, but your modus operandi has been to carry your personal grudges across threads. However, since what you generally write is so full of obscurity, there is always your opportunity for supplying abject apologies when caught, as you did with the other thread. Apologies are not necessarily sincere with you, but more in the way of your playing your passive aggressive game.

    Now for some reason, perhaps my attacking you at one time or another, or because I refused on occasion to be drawn into your passive aggressive game, you have made me one of your many people to attack here. That is perfectly fine for you to do and I will either respond in kind, or not as the case may be. That is what a forum is about.

  28. “They are discernible but require some skill not all have, and that is not a brag as a defenxe.”

    ID707,

    Perhaps what you perceive as a lack of skill is merely not wishing to be bored by trying to spend time thinking about your obscure allusions.

    “I retreat into this again after being attacked(?) by you. And also, in this case, fear of treading into territory where I, as an American, am assumed having knowledge (the jewish question etc), but where I don’t for reasons earlier discussed.”

    The “fear” you mention is specious since one of the most prominent parts of your methodology here is to attack and attack often, not just me but whoever catches your attention. As for now, have at it I’ve grown bored with this whole exchange and have better things to do with my time.

  29. Recently a friend of mine who is an Orthodox Jew (Female) used the word “Jewess” on-line and got corrected immediately, to the effect of “Jewess is a word we do not use, like Negress.” Of course that’s right, but it may not be commonly known. And I think there’s a scholarly article about it somewhere. “Shakespeare used the word, so why not we?” could be a question, but frankly, who cares. (And after all Shakespeare — what did HE know?) I find the subject kinda funny; how DOES one combine the gender i.d. with the ethnicity i.d. anyway?

    Anyway I call myself a Jew. I think I’m on-guard to non-Jews and so forth but I don’t think I abandon all rational thought to surrender to persecution paranoia, either. Anyway, that’s enough. I hereby declare I have no dog in the race.

  30. Malisha,

    My dog was not in the race either. I made the same mistake as your Jewess, ie not being aware of norms.

    Am not really interested in learning them either.

    You are aware of dangers, as you show openly. Commendably for us all, not just for jews.

    But others seem intent on the using the tactic of few questioning words lure many in reply from me. Which provides many places to attack. Even when my words are innocent. MikeS speaks of grudges, and retreats into trench warfare mode, or a poor imitation of Talmud school tactics. Too much to waste more time on.

    He will get short shrift from now on but no more respect than that earned.

    He made a uséful observation in a neutral tone about my writings clarity. That I acknowledged and thanked him for. But the jew question deteriorates in his hands. A shame. But it is a question for Americans.

    It is no problem here. He claims Sweden is third in ranking in anti-semitic deeds.
    Don’t know and don’t care. I don’t find such things as being important here. I do notice that Israel lost favor here in public opinion after the use of phosphore shells on Gaza, HE shells are not registered as well.

    And Sweden has, as most nations do, rooted at times for the underdag. Which Israel was once, and now Palestine is.

    But this is obvious to me, not the results of any study on my part.

    All this as a result of a non-politically correct link selection. Seems to be a sensitive question.

    Not worth visiting any more for my part. I have long ago left Israel/Palestine as an unsolveable problem. Any inputs to me are purely coincidental to other contacts.

    PS I don’t in principle, use links to make points. Haven’t the urge to search for them. I comment, take it or leave it as an opinion.

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