It appears the fight over Lebensraum is now being waged over liquor store shelf space. An American couple has triggered a free speech controversy in Italy after complaining about the sale of wine with the image of Hitler on the label or other labels for “Mein Kampf” wine or wine with the motto “Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer” (one people, one empire, one Fuhrer). Michael Hirsch, a lawyer from Philadelphia, complained about the sale of such items. In Italy, prosecutors are looking into the matter for possible criminal charges. The question is whether the producer should have a right to supply such bottles and customers should have the right to buy such bottles.
I certainly agree with Hirsch (whose wife’s family has holocaust survivors) that the sale of these bottles are offensive and I also agree with the decision to complain to the local supermarket for carrying such offensive items. I would have done the same thing in complaining to the establishment.
However, it is not clear when Hirsch went to the media whether he was demanding action by the government even though such products are lawful in the United States. Indeed, I recently represented a vodka manufacturer which successfully challenged a bar on sales due to the alleged offensive nature of its label.
The media coverage led Andrea Riccardi, the Italian integration minister, to issue a statement “to reassure our American friends who visit our country that our Constitution and our culture rejects racism, anti-Semitism and Nazi fascism.” For her part, Prosecutor Mario Giulio Schinaia said that she is looking into possible criminal charges.
We have previously discussed limitations on free speech in countries like Germany following World War II — crimes that include any Nazi symbols or material that have led to arrests for things like ringtones. Obviously, critics of the wine are concerned with more than a few skinheads getting blitzkrieged on Hitler schnapps. It is hard to believe that the wine is being bought simply as a novelty by most of these customers and is part of a resurgence of fascist political groups in Europe, particularly in countries like Germany, France, and Greece.
I have been a long critic of such laws as doing little but forcing speech underground and making martyrs out of fascists who simply alter symbols slightly to get around the restrictions. I continue to maintain that, even in countries with fascist histories like Italy and Germany, the only solution to bad speech is more speech. Censorship historically has done little to change minds. People have a basic right to express their political viewpoints and to associate with like-minded people in the political realm.
The wine controversy comes at a time when some legislators are seeking to decriminalize the creation of fascist parties in Italy.
The stories on the wine controversy quote prosecutors as citing a crime in Italy for “apologising for fascism.” This curiously worded law is the barrier not only to free speech but to the creation of political parties. By “apologising,” the Italians appear to mean something closer to “defending” or “advocating.” As a civil libertarian, I have considerable concerns with such content-based regulation of speech. While I share the concern over the resurgence of fascism, I tend to gravitate toward greater than less free speech in such cases. Moreover, the wine controversy shows how far such limitations can extend. It could include parody or artistic expression as well as political speech.
Notably, Austria recently dropped a criminal probe and allowed Hitler wine to be sold in that country. His decision could lead to some interesting conflicts with teeshirts featuring the wine but showing Hitler in circumvention of national laws. For those seeking to limit speech, the danger of liquor lebensraum is that it could spread to an array of consumer items glorifying the Third Reich.
One producer is Roland Marte, 48, who produces an array of Hitler bottles including schnapps. He has described the line as “Nostalgic bottles from a former historical great.”
The fact that an American couple triggered this debate is ironic since these wines would be entirely protected in the United States. Once again, it is not clear that the Hirsch’s did anything other than raise awareness of an obnoxious product. However, prosecutors should not be involved in such matters in my view.
What do you think?
Source: Telegraph
Come on…. If you don’t like it…Don’t buy it….. If the store selling it is offensive to you don’t shop there…… Are you not going to drink vodka because Russia was communist?
I have often wondered why Hitler chose France to attack early in the war. Must have liked the Beaujolais.
I am particularly fond of Sonderkommando bubbly…..it is the blood red cherry on the icing on the cake…..
I buy wine for the taste, and I’m not above spending big. Good wine tends to come in bottles with tasteful labels. Quality vintners don’t want their product associated with ugly imagery. So I’d wager that this wine and schnapps is crap. How big of a market is there for people who want to buy a bottle for the novelty and/or shock value? Will Nazi enthusiasts buy this more than once? Will the people who decide what to put on store shelves order shipments more than once? Especially if antagonized wine-shoppers start defacing the labels with indelible markers? That’s what I’d do if I ever saw this crap in a store. Seeing as how I live in a province with a socialist-controlled (but not exclusively so) liquor distribution system, I don’t foresee that happening, though.
I have often wondered why Hitler chose France to attack early in the war. Must have liked the Beaujolais.
Germans have traditionally attacked France, going back to the days when the Alemanni had at the Roman Empire cities in Gaul. Fact is, “France” got its name from the Frankish people (as in “Frankfurt”) who overran the Western edge of the empire after the Romans turned their attention to Constantinople and the east. So Hitler was just following a family tradition.
Crybaby American Jew – Thanks for making us just a little more hated in the world asshat.
“… Germans have traditionally attacked France …”
That is actually a fairly recent (in historical terms) stereotype. France was a unified state and a military world power for most of medieval and all of early modern history while Germany was a loose conglomeration of quarreling states until 1870. It was much more common for France to stray across the border, as they did 1870.
Regarding the original point:
It’s not as if we Germans think that “Hitler wine” or a swastika on a model plane will pave the way for the coming of the Forth Reich, it is more of a cultural taboo.
Most Germans react to non-historical use of nazi symbolism like most Americans react to inappropriate public nudity.
And since laws reflect to a certain degree the culture that enacted them, the breach of these taboos are sanctioned with penalties.
Ah, some holy not-water (“mein chianti”) for the bully religion aficionados.
Prof.,
Nothing I can add to that except a “yep”. Silence is not just a form of censorship. It can be an insidious form of propaganda as well. The only way to truly clean our societal dirty laundry is to scrub it vigorously with discourse and air it out and exposing it to the cleansing sunshine of reason.
***************
Berliner,
Excellent point about the history of Gaul versus the history of Germania. They (the Celts in Gaul) were far more organized and working as a relatively homogeneous culture far longer than the Germanic tribes. However, it reminds me of something John Cleese once said about Britain during the Falkland Islands War. When asked about it, he responded with something along the lines of “We’re fighting a bunch of Argentinians over sheep. It’s a bit ridiculous. If we’re going to fight anyone, it should be our natural enemy which is, of course, the French.”
“Good wine tends to come in bottles with tasteful labels. Quality vintners don’t want their product associated with ugly imagery.”
******************
Pablo Picasso did a very fine label for Chateau Mouton-Rothschild. Baron Philippe de Rothschild, owner of Mouton, asked Pablo Picasso to design the label that was released shortly after Picasso’s death. The 1973 vintage goes for about $200.00 a bottle. Lousy wine; great label.
why do people hate the French?!?!?!
and yet they cannot stay away!
mespo,
Lousy is one way to put it. I had some at a tasting one time and my nose grew out of the side of my head for a week. Here’s a link to a picture of that label: http://www.theartistlabels.com/mouton/1973.html
FT:
“Crybaby American Jew – Thanks for making us just a little more hated in the world asshat.”
*********************
Congratulations. You have managed — in one simple sentence — to insult Jews, Americans, and the rest of the world. The irony is that the insult to Americans is you.
Bravo!
The teaching of history has always been a political, rather than reality-based profession, when done on the mass level. WWII is seven decades past and the horrors stemming from it directly, only exist in the memories of old, dying people. The Axis Powers perpetrated horrors on their citizens and their nations. To combat them the Allies perpetrated horrors in defense. The wars aftermath led to a massive rebuilding of former enemies, with new enemies developed in a “Cold War”. War criminals with certain skills were absolved in the pragmatic need to fight a new enemy. The need to teach the lessons learned from WWII fell victim to the need to strengthen alliances against the new enemy.
Years past, new generations arose and witnesses died with age. The human is always focused on the realities of the present. rather than the horrors of the ever distancing past. Hitler, a name synonymous with hatred and destruction, becomes a sickly romantic vision of a savior undone, by those frustrated with their lot in life. And so it goes.
Banning this loathsome expression of nostalgia only hides the truth of the fact that a part of humanity is still attracted to the sick certainties that Fascism supplies. Rather than directing energies towards hiding this predilection of the authoritarian mind, we must openly discuss its widespread implications, if we are indeed capable of having such a discussion.
Perhaps too, non-Jews of open mind can understand why a man such as myself, born in America at the end of WWII, growing up in an America where hatred of a person just for being Jewish was still acceptable in many venues,
still maintains a sense of vigilance, rather than full trust in my fellow citizens. History has shown that it can indeed happen here, however unlikely that scenario may be.
“The irony is that the insult to
Americanshumans is you. ”Just a suggestion.
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/106409/jewish-blood-is-cheap
Just a follow-up to my comment above.
I am sort of curious as to who would purchase wine with a name like that. Wouldnt they be embarrassed/shamed? And how good could the wine be? The dregs of society usually are the ones who embrace that crap anyway.
This is a vexing question that has been around ever since warfare. After WWII, i fully supported the military government which banned all such symbols and put Nazi party members on trial and hung a number of them. I think that the Allies hung too few and should have executed at least another hundred thousand or more, especially all officers in the SS and Gestapo and all leading members of the Nazi Party. Unfortunately, the Brits were more interested in making war against the Commies than securing the peace, so they turned a blind eye to such folks and used them. The US then followed their lead enthusiastically.
After any war, there is a need to supress the enemy and restrict civil liberties and rights. The question is how long and how far to go. I think we have to look at history to get some answers. The period after the US Civil War required forceful action against the Confederates. There was in fact actual warfare going on in Reconstruction between the Union forces and the KKK mostly along the lines of irregular warfare and terrorism. The end of Reconstruction, meant the victory of the South, and it took one hundred years to win the final battle. That was a major failure. In Yugoslavia after the war, the League of Communists established a one party state which restricted such symbols and curtailed civil liberties and speech. I could see the reason and point for that and would have supported it. Unfortunately, they kept the system in place and forced all history and passions underground, so that when the dictatorship was released, none of the issues had been dealth in the open, and the state broke up into a civil war.
I think that there is a golden mean between these two examples. The question becomes for now, are such symbols a threat to democratic functioning? If so, then I support their supression and the people who display them. For the time being, I think that such bottles should be destroyed by those who object to them by smashing them, or defacing them. Just as the law allows for such things as fighting words, I think that things such as this qualify on that basis. It is up to the people to take a hand in stopping such things, and I am loathe to have the state do it for us. Then the prosecutor can exercise discretion for those who destroy such things.
“WWII is seven decades past and the horrors stemming from it directly, only exist in the memories of old, dying people. ”
” The human is always focused on the realities of the present. rather than the horrors of the ever distancing past. Hitler, a name synonymous with hatred and destruction, becomes a sickly romantic vision of a savior undone, by those frustrated with their lot in life. ” ~Mike Spindell
———————————————————————
I rarely disagree with you Mike S. and even now it is not a disagreement as much as a quantum of understanding to add to your thought. There are horrors, ever anew, each time someone pretends that it never happened. Each time that a potential moment of healing and recognition goes by un-addressed and un-fullfilled. I am not a ‘Jew’ in the strict sense of the word. I was born into and raised a Christian…stock of the Jewish tree as all Christians are. I have however, cared for those whose tatooed arms are hardly the first clue that they lived through such a damning experience. And the ignoring, the pretending, the romanticising serves only to drive underground the great and un-hideable knowledge that the survivors will never be able to pretend away and a truth that should never be forgotten.
The greatest misunderstanding made by man is that of time. Time is the thing that exists only as a tool to understanding. Events and their repercussions are forever.
That said, leave the label alone. Let it be. It is appropriate to have flags so that we know the enemy.
ARE:
how can you smash them if they belong to someone else? Property rights are a pillar or should be a pillar of any free society. You cannot go into a store and smash something you disagree with, that is worse than the symbol to which you object.
A proper government should protect life, liberty and property.
“I ate his liver w/ some fava beans and a nice chianti.” I don’t think Hannibal Lechter would have a problem w/ this vino.
If you call a black man a nigger to his face, it is NOT a violation of free speech if he smashes you in the mouth. The same holds true for these items, and I would urge any person who sees such a thing on the shelf to take matters into their own hands. WE should not rely on the state to take care of such matters. Then if you are arrested, I think that a good campaign could be mounted to drop the charges. I would not stick around to be arrested in the first place. After losing this product, I think that the problem will take care of itself and the seller will decide it is not worth it to carry the product.
There are all kinds of property which are illegal and are not protected. I have personally been the victim of KKK terrorism and the cops in Houston did nothing at all. Indeed we later found out they encouraged such actions. So this is not exactly unheard of in the USA.
Here’s the link to the winery that “proudly” produces the Hitler labeled wine as part of their “Historical ” wine collection.
“Founded in Pasian di Prato in 1967, the Wine Company Alessandro Lunardelli, embodies the experience and the ultra centennial tradition of the Lunardelli family in the enological field. Some generations ago, in fact, the Lunardelli Company produced and traded wine in a farm situated in one of the best production areas in Veneto. Alessandro Lunardelli, grew up and trained in the paternal school and after moving to Friuli for family reasons in the year 1968, decided to start his own wine business. For this reason, the 25-year old Alessandro, first rented and then bought one of the most ancient wine cellars in Friuli, where still today the company has its centre. Even if he had quite a large experience, that decision of Alessandro Lunardelli was a great risk.. In fact, he wanted to make sure that also outside the region people knew the many good, but until then hidden, qualities of Friulian wines. Alessandro Lunardelli however did not loose faith and, thanks to his remarkable professional abilities, along with an innate affability and an uncommon tenacity, in a short time he succeeded in starting an activity that, although initially a modest amount of trade, soon came to the 2,.500 hectolitres of wine mark and reached beyond 100,000 bottles produced and traded in the year 1998. The Wine Company Lunardelli initially only traded a few types of loose wine. Slowly however, the owner, Alessandro Lunardelli, established the bases of the current company, searching in the best wine areas of the region for a series of small producers that have allowed him to widen and improve day after day the quality of the offer. Today the company offers to its customers more than 15 types of wine coming from the DOC areas (with certified quality): Aquileia, Collio, Colli Orientali, Friuli – Isonzo and Friuli – Latisana. Since 1987 the company Alessandro Lunardelli has completed a major stage of the business development, thanks to the addition to the company of his son Andrea, who is now in charge of administrative direction and marketing. The first signs of the renewal have been the beginning of the commercialisation of the bottled wine in 1990 and the beginning of the production of the bottles of the Historical Series in 1995. The latter consist of bottles of wine of optimal quality with labels that remind us of the life lives of celebrated personages of Italian and world political history such as Che Guevara, Churcill, Francesco Giuseppe, Gramsci, Hitler, Marx, Mussolini, Napoleon and Sissi. Thanks to this invention, the wine company Alessandro Lunardelli has obtained a lot of attention from the media all over the world both for the originality of the idea and for the quality of the wines. Today approximately half of the bottles of wine produced by the company are dedicated to the to the Historical Series which by now amounts to over 50 different labels, and has become a cult object among the collectors.”
” … the wine company Lunardelli has established over the years a privileged relationship with thirty small producers scattered in the best wine areas of the Friuli, which produce wine, only for the Lunardelli Company. Alessandro and Andrea Lunardelli follow and assist the producers-suppliers in every phase of the wine production, from the planting of new vines to the barrelling, making sure that the final product respects the highest qualitative standards. Once produced, the wine is conserved by the producers, on behalf of the Lunardelli Company, in wood barrels or reservoirs of glass-reinforced plastic and cement, until the collaborators of the Company take it to the wine cellar in Pasian di Prato.”
http://www.vinilunardelli.com/index.php?inc=chi_siamo_2&lnng=EN
“The Lunardelli company said it had sold around 20,000 bottles featuring the Hitler labels per year.”
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iBIu8mZxF70ynXq97c-Ot5lpzQ9A
randyjet:
property is legal unless you know otherwise and even then it is in someones possession, that is why we have laws.
The KKK are a bunch of nasty little minds running around pretending to be human beings, any cop who would encourage them should give up his badge and his membership in the human race.
Actually, under Italian law this is not legal and the same is true in Germany. In many places I can think of, such laws serve a good purpose in its time and place. The question is how long and how strictly such laws should be enforced. I think that citizen action is more appropriate and serves a better purpose than having the state do it. I would be opposed to cops going into the store and arresting the owner. It serves justice and the community better if citizens do it and the cops ignore the action. Right after WWII, it would be right for the cops to arrest the owner and put him in prison. Now I think it is not needed and less severe measures are appropriate.
When I first moved to Houston, there was a massive amount of KKK terrorism going on. The chief of police, Herman Short opined that having a lot of his cops being members of the KKK was no problem since he thought that they were a fine patriotic organization.
My general understanding of the anti-Nazi laws of Europe is that iconography and publications are banned but this is not prohibited when used in education or in some historical contexts.
When I was in Berlin about five years ago I saw in a public square, several vendors having fold up tables who were hocking curios from the past. One of them had postage stamps from the Nazi days which had a profile shot of Adolf’s head and a swastika.
Knowing of this ban I found it surprising he was allowed to sell this. But there was nothing secret about what he was doing so he obviously did not meet any resistance from the Politzei.
Now this is in Germany as opposed to Italy but I suppose the prosecutor in this case might be stretching things a bit to address Italy’s reputation and not the label.
As for iconography and this booze being purchased by Neo-Nazis. I know that many of them like Doc Marten boots so should we ban Doc Martens because skinheads like them?
Blouise,
I am insulted that the great American historical figure, Ronald Reagan does not have his face on the label of that Italian wine!
Here in Sweden……heard that before?
Our much loved author of childrens’ books (Pippi longstockings) Astrid Lindgren showed us how to handle skinheads and immigrant haters (on the personal level).
She clapped one ón his shaved head and said, in effect:
So, so. don’t be so skin-headsy. Be a nice boy.
They managed to get into parliament in the last election.
Stamping out stupidity? Only education will do it.
Americans… Always complaining about free speech.
Why would they go to another country to complain about something that offended them?
“The Lunardelli company said it had sold around 20,000 bottles featuring the Hitler labels per year.”
Oh….so it’s not personal…….merely business.
*Mike Spindell
Bigotry is always marketable and always finds a market.. Lunardelli uses it to sell wine in Italy and Chick Fil A’s Cathy uses it to sell chicken in the USA.
It is interesting to me Mike of the company using Adolf’s image to sell their wine yet he personally despised alcohol.
How about a Carrie Nation Gewürztraminer?
hitler whines. stalin vodka, comes in a steel bottle. mussolini wine, hang it upside down and throw rocks at it.
bush beer, goes good with pretzels.
You missed that old standby Papa Doc Rum, pete, but that’s an easy enough omission to make with it being disappeared and all. It doesn’t take up a lot of shelf space, but it’s wicked hard to find.
Darren,
I’d forgotten he was a teetotaller. Another small irony. One of my own, given my sensibilities, is the only wines I like are German, particularly Reislings.
Well said, Woosty.
Excellent background Blouise, apparently their motivated by money and the desire for publicity. It’s perverse, and not in a good way.
Mike, wit all due respect, your link (regarding the refusal for a moment of silence) was very informative and I recall the events as they happened. It seems to me though that the Olympics and IOC has always been a political organization and it has been turned into little more than a business. It may have always been so or not, I don’t know but it’s so blatant and aggressive that even someone like me that doesn’t go out of their way to be informed about the Olympics can see it.
In that regard, the last thing this billion(s) dollar business wants is to spend even a minute with something that would halt the relentlessly scripted psychological environment that has been established. Pure business can be as ruthless and heartless as racism. Pure business can have a racist effect and work hand in glove with racism for no reason greater than a few more bucks. I wouldn’t underestimate the weight or effect of the business angle.
The question front and center is whether a country like Germany or Italy which each elected and were ruled by nazi dictators who conducted genocide of millions can be trusted to not return to their nazi ways. The conclusion reached in 1945 was that their people were infected with something which went beyond being deluded by some dictator like Hitler or Mussolini. The conclusion was that there was some genetic defectin the German mind, the Italian mind, that needed to be cordoned off. Laws were needed then to cordon off the promotion and glorification of race and ethic hate. Free speech is something that some animals are not capable of exercising. They dont let a dog bark Fire in a croweded theatre in America. They should not let the Germans or Italians resurrect their God Hitler now in the year 2012. One of the commenters above ranted that this American who complained is just some itchinbay jew. Many Americans died, lost limbs, lost fathers, mothers. sons, because the Germans and Italians went off the reservation reserved for human beings and committed themselves to genocide. We have a right to itchinbay when the nazis rear their ugly uttbays. I would use the real words but the censor here in America on this blog wont let me. I even have to spell my own dog name in pig latin to post it on this blog. If you complainers dont like censorship then start your complaining right here about this blog. Forget not— Hitler was elected to office. Never again. You can buy his wine with his name on it in America but it is not wise to let the Germans or Italians to hoist his memory. Try buying Five Wives Vodka in Utah though.
lotta,
If you check out their website, they have 4 employees … I don’t know if the son, Andrea Lunardelli (the brain child behind the Historical Series), is included in that count, but he does get all the credit for developing the Hitler series.
I particularly liked Woosty’s comment: “… leave the label alone. Let it be. It is appropriate to have flags so that we know the enemy”
As for Michael Hirsch, the lawyer from Philadelphia who complained thus calling our attention to the exploits of Andrea Lunardelli … good on you, brother.
Blouise,
W=^..^ was channeling her inner guerrilla fighter . . .
Lt. Aldo Raine: [to Utivitch] Ask him what he is gonna do with his uniform when he gets home.
Pvt. Butz: [through an interperter] Not only do I intend to take off my uniform, I intend to burn it.
Lt. Aldo Raine: Nah, see, we don’t like that. We like our Nazis in uniform. That way we can spot ‘em just like that. We’re gonna give you a little something you cant take off.
Nazis are like cockroaches. The ones you can see are bad enough, but it’s the ones you can’t see that have the greatest chance for reproduction. Consider the difference between an open advocate like Joseph Goebbels and an enabler from the shadows like Prescott Bush.
Gene,
Probably my all-time favorite movie and Aldo is my all time favorite “gentile”.
Inglourious!
a most excellent movie! (I can only aspire….)
The Germans made the same mistake of thinking that if you can see them and let them organize without a problem, they can be controlled. They found out differently. You cannot allow them to organize without massive opposition on all fronts. There should be conseequences for being a Nazi or fascist.
As for Prescott Bush being a Nazi, that is simply a slander since he was NOT the principal behind the bank he was supposedly in charge of, he was a flunky for HIS BOSS, Averell Harriman. THAT was the guy who called the shots in the firm, NOT Bush. So if Bush was a Nazi, then Harriman was a bigger one. Of course, Harriam was an FDR supporter, so there is no mention of that. Also, Joe Kennedy was as much a Nazi if not more so than Bush. Bush was not advocating and saying Hitler was the wave of the future, and was not an anti-Semite as Kennedy was. Joe Kennedy was a long time supporter of Joe McCarthy and supported him to the bitter end. So let’s tell the whole truth, not just partisan snipets. So as I am finding out RFK was as bad as his father in all of those areas. Talk about some snakes!
Who said anything about Bush being the only closet Nazi enabler?
No one.
Also, don’t mistake an attack on the Bush Crime family as partisan, ARE, or as an endorsement of the Kennedy Crime family. Just like both major parties, I think both of those families suck. Wealthy doesn’t equate to having good character or fitness for leadership.
Gene H, I am shocked, SHOCKED!
If people do not become wealthy by being good and fit for leadership, how else could they possibly become wealthy? What you say is so counter-intuitive.
About them getting through the eyes of needles, that is being arranged.
Arthur,
Being a flunky for NAZI’s is the equivalent of being one. Prescott Bush was a Senator during this time. He was also among those who proposeded a coup to unseat Roosevelt in 1933. As for Joe Kenney and his boys I don’t hold any great faith in them either. However, while as a Jew I have an obvious hatred of fascism, I don’t believe they should be repressed until they step outside the law. If those who govern are allowed to repress any view they deem dangerous, then we all are in deep trouble.
Blouise, I missed Woosty’s remark but true it is, as well as the kudos to Inglourious, one of my favorites. I saw it a couple of days ago and checked to see if it won any Oscars, only one for best supporting actor! They was robbed.
But Gene, aren’t the wealthy the “achieves”?
Well said Mike S.!
After Inglorious ended my wife and I sat stunned in our seats as the credits rolled. We were too choked up and emotional to speak. As a Jew it was cathartic, when compared to all the Shoah movies that depict Jews as helpless victims. However, judging by the reaction here and by the fact that Tarrantino, a non-Jew made a movie that so powerfully released a Jewish fantasy of destroying the NAZIS before the worst was done, I see that this movie raises universal human feelings making it the work of a genius.
Mike S, everyone tells me what movies I should see. I never even HEARD of Inglorious, but after your comment, it has risen to the top of my must-see list. Thanks.
The movie Inglorious is fanasty and has no relation to reality. There are far more fitting movie subjects of Jews who actually DID fight against the Nazis, but not as only Jews, but in the Resistance groups in Eastern Europe which were mostly Communist, and thus unfit for US consumption.
Gene H, if you only mention P Bush and NOT HIS BOSS, then you are being partisan. Harriman was the guy in charge of the banking firm and so he is the one who is mostly responsible. The Anti-Defamation League found no evidence that P Bush was a Nazi sympathizer or enablerer. The bank was actually owned by a Dutch cut out and they never found out who the real owners were. We can assume that is was Thyssen controlled.
As for wealth not being a qualifier for political office that is quite true, but it is also true that great poverty is not either as LBJ proved. At least LBJ remember where he came from, and once in power did something about it. JFK was far better than his family and I recommend a book the Kennedys hate, JFK Reckless Youth, which made me appreciate JFK more than I originally did.
Another book that is good about the real traitors during WWII, is Trading With the Enemy, and Bush is not even mentioned as one of those. I still cannot use a TEXACO station and will never use one as long as I live.
Mike S, Before you libel a person, I suggest you do some simple research. P Bush was NOT a Senator during or before WWII. He lost his first bid for US Senate from CT because he was TOO LIBERAL! He supported and was active in Planned Parenthood which cost him the Catholic vote which was determinative in CT. He also fought against Sen. McCarthy and voted for his censure, UNLIKE JFK who was good buddies with his fellow Catholic bigot. JFK refused to fight against McCarthy because of his father who WAS a Nazi sympathizer. He also did NOT vote for censure either.
There was a time that there were such things as liberal Republicans, and Bush was one of them. Of course, if he were around now, I think he would disown his grandson.
I could find no reference at all to the plot that was reported by Smedly Butler and I did not see Bush’s name at all. I would be very surprised since it goes against every political and business dealing Bush had. That plot involved mostly the DuPont family and their friends in that area. Bush was not that politically active in 1933 when that happened. So absent any evidence, that is nothing but a libel as well. In fact, the Anti-Defamation League found P Bush to NOT be guilty of aiding the Nazis or being one. I take their word on that score since they have a big interest in uncovering REAL Nazis.
And that would clear Prescott Bush of being involved in the fascist friendly Business Plot how exactly? Or his knowledge and assistance to the Nazis as a Director in the bank? If you want Harriman mentioned? Fine. Mention away. He qualifies as an enabler as well. Also, the ADL isn’t an official investigative body of any government let alone ours. Note that the bank was seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act and its assets held for the duration of World War II. Also, what I said was “an enabler from the shadows like Prescott Bush.” This is an accurate statement. Consider this excerpt of a story that appeared in The Guardian
“George Bush’s grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company’s assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator’s action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
The debate over Prescott Bush’s behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the “Bush/Nazi” connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis’ plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler’s rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.
Remarkably, little of Bush’s dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him. But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush’s business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.
While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen’s US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war. ”
That sounds like an enabler to me. And Nazis are one of those rare instances of pure evil that by merely enabling them you actually do accrue guilt by association. See, you mistake me naming one of your boy’s as a villain even though his motivation was purely greed (as opposed to being a card carrying Nazi) as partisanship when I don’t like either party. I think Obama is aiding and abetting treason and war crimes by not prosecuting Prescott’s grandson and his gang of neocon fascist lackeys. That the GOP attracts some of the worst of the worst is simply coincidental. If you can find an example of a DNC enabler to the Nazis and can point to some modicum of evidence? Be my guest. I’d love to see it.
Those documents that are cited were NOT secret and Bush said he WAS a director of UBS under the direction of Averell Harriam, who was his boss. Bush also co-operated and did nothing to enable the Nazis in the US. The firm you will notice was NOT Bush and Harriam by the way.
I am not a fan of Bush, but I dislike fake history, and smears when the truth is quite sufficient and only discredits thosw who make slander,libel and guilt by association a crime. By the way, since the suit was filed in 2004, you failed to tell us of the resutls. Why is that?
Nothing fake about the history. I said enabler and he was an enabler of the Nazis. The “in the US” was your qualifier. That his name wasn’t on the door is irrelevant to his knowledge, standing and assistance as a Director of UBC. Even if he was acting at the direction of Walker and Harriman, that is irrelevant to him being an enabler in fact just as they were. Speaking of irrelevant? That is why I didn’t mention the outcome of the suit. The outcome is irrelevant but the documents produced during discovery still have historical significance and they were not ruled inadmissible. The suit itself was ill conceived and poorly prosecuted. The state, which was also party to the suit, quashed the case by having Judge Rosemary Collyer rule them immune from liability under state sovereignty. By going for too many pockets (and using questionable strategy in general), they inadvertently damaged any direct case against the Bush family. Although Bush (and Harriman and Walker) had reason to know what the Nazis were doing and materially benefited from doing business with Germany using funds derived from slave labor, doing business with Germany wasn’t against the law until war was officially declared. None of that changes that by doing business with the Nazis, Prescott Bush was part of the enterprise that enabled them in their rise to power. He personally netted $1,500,000 when UBC assets were unfrozen after the war. He then used this blood money to found his family’s investment empire which they are still using to nefarious ends to this day. If that is inconvenient for you? Too damn bad.
which is worse, “i was only following orders” or “nothing personal, it’s just business”.
I wrote a theme song to the Hitler Wine.
Das Horst Wein Lied (music http://www.anesi.com/east/horstw.wav )
Die Gläser hoch. Die Flaschen werden geöffnet.
AH marschiert, mit lauter betrunkenen Schritte
Kameraden, ist der Rotwein in den Schnapsgläsern.
Berauscht von Geist, als ‘Narren sind wir mit.
“Mike S, Before you libel a person, I suggest you do some simple research.”
Randyjet,
I most usually research my “purported libels”. Such as here:
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/17/a-real-history-of-the-last-sixty-two-years/#more-46802
That article contains extensive sourcing for my conclusions. Much of it is taken from the book by investigative reporter Russ Baker “Family of Secrets”.
However, I am an “equal opportunity purported libeler” as you can see in this other blog I did here which deals with IBM’s assistance to the NAZI’s and the “Shoah”.
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/03/a-corporate-tale/#more-46164
I would also suggest that you expand your own horizons when it comes to this subject by perusing “The Secret War Against the Jews”by John Loftus and Mark Aarons, St. Martin’s Press (1994).
“The movie Inglorious is fanasty and has no relation to reality. There are far more fitting movie subjects of Jews who actually DID fight against the Nazis”
Arthur,
That “Inglorious Basterds” is a fantasy is exactly why I and many others love it.
Yes there are other movies dealing with Jewish resistance that are actually factual at base. “Exodus” for instance deals extensively with the glorious fight Jews put up in the Warsaw Ghetto, but ultimately that fight ended in tragedy. One particularly good one was “Defiance” starring Daniel Craig and Liev Schreiber. That dealt with the actual resistance efforts of the four Bielski brothers in Belarus. Since one of my daughters actually knew the granddaughter of one of the surviving Bielski brothers, the movie resonated with me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defiance_%282008_film%29 .
What I wasn’t clear on though was that “Inglorious” was cathartic to me because it didn’t simply show Jews as tragic heroes, ultimately either escaping or meeting tragic destruction. That it was a fantasy of not only heroic resistance, but actual total Jewish victory over the NAZI’s, was what made it so satisfying to me. You must remember that for two thousand years Jews have been portrayed as cowardly weaklings by those who disdain us.
Schmidt dos ist ausgeziechtnet! Sehr drollig!
Arthur:
Danke. Schade, dieser Song ist in Deutschland verboten. Es gäbe viele Parodien sein.
As for the libel, I was refering to the post that P Bush was a Senator at the time along with other fallacies. There is no question that he was a director of the bank. I think that the fact the ADL cleared Bush of any involvement or complicity with the Nazis is quite sufficient for most people, including myself. AS for IBM, they are far worse and did during the war help out the Nazis.
My father worked for IBM after the war for a time, and my mother told me about the police state IBM ran in Binghamton, NY. She especially was outraged at the annual 4th of July picnic where TJ Watson berated Gen. Marshall who was an invited guest speaker. IBM had a secret police which investigated the personal lives of all employees, and she really hated that kind of thing. From my family experience, I have NO problem with any allegations against IBM as to helping the Nazis. Watson was typical of his class in his sympathies and outlook.
I had wanted to see Defiance, but I missed the chance. It sounds like a great flick which I will have to see. THAT is my kind of movie. It is like the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek. Star Trek is science fiction in that it has science as an intergral part of the movie and Star Wars is more fantasy. I enjoy both though.
Gene H I actually want FACTS for my history. YOU have provided nothing but RUMORS and innuendo. The FACT is the suit failed and nothing whatsoever proven on the lines of your assertions. Using your logic, any person who bought anything or did any business with Germany after 1933 was an enabler of the Nazis. In fact, there was a movement in the US to boycott all things from Germany at that time. So any person who went to the 1936 Olympics would have to be considered an enabler too.
As for the supposed $1,500,000 P Bush was RUMORED to have gotten for his ONE SHARE of stock, that is ALL it is. RUMOR. In FACT, P Bush had more than enough money from his position as a director and executive to build his fortune without such a windfall. So far, I and the ADL have not seen any PROOF of the allegations. Bush was at worst a good emplyee doing what he was told to do by his boss, Harriman. Sorry, but I do insist on factual things.
I’m not so sure it was a fantasy as much as a compilation of more accurate memories of how many Jews behaved ( and were not credited with doing so) that lent itself to a collective understanding of actual fact. People seem to believe that being powerless in a situation is the same as being weak and nothing could be further from the truth. Truly weak people do very well. They don’t find themselves in ‘situations’ because they never take a stand against anything that can hurt them. They always seem to look unruffled. Real people know better. Real people occasionally find themselves having to say no to bullies or having to do things that protect others and not themselves. I say a mental PHuck You to all the ones that just go along w/the quo…..that way I can look at myself in the mirror and sleep at night.
oh…it was the ‘F’ bomb…. oops
“Defiance” is one of my all time favorites.
ARE,
No. What I provided were indeed facts. What you want are facts that conform to your ideological preferences and the candidates and pols that represent them. The failure of the suit was immaterial to the evidence against Prescott Bush and its admissibility. The fact is he got $1,500,000 from UBC funds once they were unfrozen after the war. Admissible evidence derived from subpoenaed business records show this. If that fact doesn’t conform with your wishes? Too bad. I won’t lie about the evidence just to assuage your bias and ignorance, buttercup.
Put it on the shelf. Don”t say danke mein schatz.
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