Dumb and Dum Dummer: NOAA Clarifies That It Is Not Buying Hollow Points For Weatherman . . . Just Fisheries Personnel

In the 1960s and 1970s, one of the most feared violent revolutionary groups was the Weathermen. It seemed that they had returned . . . and they are better armed. The National Weather Service has reportedly asked for 16,000 rounds of .40 S&W jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets. Hollow points — or dum-dum bullets — are illegal under international law in war because they are designed to flattened upon impact and cause massive wounds to targets. Now a spokesman for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has said it is all a mistake. They are not armed weathermen . . . they are arming the Fisheries office personnel.


An additional 6,000 rounds of S&W JHP are to be sent to Wall, New Jersey and another 24,000 rounds to St. Petersburg, Florida. It is not clear why the National Weather Service — part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) — needs this arsenal. However, it is following the lead of Homeland Security which purchased 450 million rounds of .40-caliber hollow point bullets.

Here is the correction:

Due to a clerical error in the federal business vendor process, a solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA’s National Weather Service as the requesting office. The error is being fixed and will soon appear correctly in the electronic federal bidding system. The ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement personnel in their firearms qualifications and training.

The question remains why hollow points are standard equipment for domestic federal law enforcement. The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body. This is a provision governing the weapons used in “warfare.” Notably, England fought to keep dum dums legal in the Hague in 1899, but only one country supported it . . . the United States (which wanted to use them in the Philippines). The vote was 22-2.

The question is whether we should be using dum-dums domestically when they are illegal in warfare under international law. While illegal in England and states like New Jersey, they remain common in the United States. Thus, we cannot use them against Al Qaeda insurgents in Iraq but we can used them on a suspect in a fisheries office?

64 thoughts on “Dumb and Dum Dummer: NOAA Clarifies That It Is Not Buying Hollow Points For Weatherman . . . Just Fisheries Personnel

  1. Well, raff, when you have dumb and dumber in charge….. They thought they were just helping out a family enterprise…..dumb dums….. From what I understand is when the bullet hits….. It flattens out and basically will clean guts out…..they are used solely to kill and immobilize the target….

  2. Don’t underestimate the danger of a bass when cornered, but I’d like to know exactly how this came under NOAA’s purview? It’s a redundant function to the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries. Why do weathermen have any say in fisheries policy let alone have police powers?

    It all smells fishy to me.

  3. Uh oh, a new “turrisstttt” organization has replaced “The Weathermen … look out look out it is The Fishermen coming to getcha … good thing the TSA was there feeling us good.

  4. Truly, it make me wonder what other agencies that have no rational need to being militarized are being militarized.

  5. The reason you law enforcement would want hollow points is two-fold. They tend to ricochet less and penetrate objects less, which is nice when you are firing into unknowable backgrounds because you are less likely to hit someone you didn’t intend to hit. Thats a good thing. Then there is the other thing. Unlike combat where you might have a dozen rifles at your side in a law confrontation it might just be you & the bad guy, when you hit him or her you want them to go down and stay down.

    Now, for that second point, the .40 is less than ideal but I guess everyone makes compromises.

  6. BTW – fish and game enforcement officers are often confronted with armed citizens (not surprising since they are often hunting) and a surprising number of them do get shot so their being armed shouldn’t surprise anyone either.

  7. Frankly,

    I wasn’t questioning arming game wardens. I was questioning why the Hell NOAA has game wardens in the first place when we already have the Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries. Couldn’t that money be better spent on, oh I don’t know, predicting and monitoring the weather?

  8. This is totally OT . . . or maybe not if you consider the phrase “dumb and dumber”. As I was reading the Huff Po this morning, I noticed these were the top 5 headlines. Coincidence?

    Lede: ROCK BOTTOM: CONGRESS HITS ALL-TIME LOW
    Second: Ryan More Harm Than Good For Romney, Say Insiders
    Third: WATCH: McCain Weighs In On Romney’s Tax Returns
    Fourth: Why Does Everyone Keep Calling Paul Ryan ‘Serious’?
    Fifth: NSFW: Are Anal Tattoos The Next Big Thing?

    I just can’t shake the feeling these stories are connected.

    I now return you to wondering why a section of the Department of Commerce responsible for weather forecasting has police powers over fisheries.

  9. Coincidence? I think not!

    Gene, you missed a couple of related stories on HuffPo:

    “Scrabble Player Caught Cheating At National Championship Tournament”

    Csanad Szegedi, Hungarian far right antisemitic politician discovers he is Jewish. There is a career ender for a neo-Nazi if there ever was one.

    “Bulwer-Lytton 2012: Cathy Bryant Wins Worst Opening Sentence Competition” with this forgettable line:

    As he told her that he loved her she gazed into his eyes, wondering, as she noted the infestation of eyelash mites, the tiny deodicids burrowing into his follicles to eat the greasy sebum therein, each female laying up to 25 eggs in a single follicle, causing inflammation, whether the eyes are truly the windows of the soul; and, if so, his soul needed regrouting.

  10. Another thing to keep in mind is that standard pistol rounds – including 44 magnum – are like a pop gun compared to centerfire rifle ammo.

    A military rifle round is more than sufficient to drop a person without need for a hollowpoint bullet – there is simply way more energy to a rifle round, and this energy is retained much further downfield than typical pistol rounds, which tend to have non aerodynamic shapes and much lower initial velocities.

  11. The O in NOAA is for Oceanic. NOAA has responsibility for managing the marine environment within 3 to 200 miles offshore the US. I guess part of that mission is to shoot people who catch an extra shrimp.

  12. The NOAA is far more than the Atmospheric portion of the name. They are charged with the researching/science necessary to help sustain the oceanic resources surrounding our country… The Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries is an internally focused department and the NOAA is the organization with the necessary knowledge & understanding of the ocean that is required to protect those species beyond fish.

    My assumption is the bulk of the ammo is going to Florida because I’m sure there is a lot more non-American boat traffic in the area and I’d be shocked if there wasn’t rampant poaching. Not to mention the NOAA individuals are probably fairly likely to have run in’s with drug runners.

    I’m okay with them having ammo.

    Do they need hollow point? Eh. Personally, I find a sick humor in the idea that a type of bullet is banned in warfare, but fragment grenades & mines are ‘OK’. A bullet is a bullet.

    Typically, the hollow points sold at your local retailer is sold as ‘home defense’ rounds… Particularily, I assume, because it will gut out an intruder…

    What I really don’t like about it? They’re far more expensive and if their qualifications and training, they should just be using the cheaper full metal jackets.

    “Fisheries

    NOAA is dedicated to protecting and preserving the nation’s living marine resources through scientific research, fisheries management, enforcement and habitat conservation. NOAA’s National Marine Fisheries Service (NOAA Fisheries) is the lead federal agency responsible for the stewardship of the nation’s offshore living marine resources and their habitat. NOAA Fisheries manages, conserves and protects fish, whales, dolphins, sea turtles and other living creatures in the ocean.

    NOAA Fisheries works within the Magnuson-Stevens Act, the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the Endangered Species Act to fulfill its mission of promoting healthy ecosystems. Federally-managed living marine resources provide an important source of food and recreation for the nation, as well as thousands of jobs and a traditional way of life for many coastal communities. As a world class science agency that serves the entire country, the mission of NOAA Fisheries is to ensure healthy fisheries and habitat for the benefit of all Americans.

    NOAA Fisheries works closely with other NOAA offices to protect and conserve marine resources. Specifically, NOAA’s Office of Oceanic and Atmospheric Research explores and investigates ocean habitats and resources. NOAA’s National Ocean Service provides maps and other data to help fishers and managers and also maintains a network of Marine Sanctuaries and Estuarine Research Reserves to help protect important resources. NOAA’s Office of Marine and Aviation Operations provides a fleet of ships and boats to support the agency’s fisheries operations.”

  13. JCTheBigTree, Thanks for the informative comment. However, it will not soothe the hand wringing folks who are constantly looking out for black helicopters.

  14. When I lived in an apartment is a not so nice area, I had hollow points for my .38 Special so that if I had to shoot a burglar or attacker, my bullet would not hit a person three doors down. Even if I missed the attacker, the bullets would stay in my wall rather than continuing down through other apartments. Even if the bullet made it through my wall, it would be so deformed it would not go much further or do little damage to my neighbor. Hollow points are good for those gun owners who care what is behind what they are shooting at. It is not just for gutting the person you are shooting at.

  15. NOAA is the agency who runs those weather alert radio systems a lot of people depend on. I have a weather alert radio on my computer desk at the office. They are very good at what they do, and their accurate weather alerts have been a lifesaver for untold numbers of people.

    I was unaware they had anything to do with fisheries and wildlife, but I can see the need for those officers carrying sidearms. I don’t care for handgun ammo smaller than a .45. However, for stopping power by small arms in a life or death situation, I want hollowpoints or wadcutters. A jacketed 9mm will go through an animal or person without stopping them. A big heavy subsonic .45 ACP has a lot of knockdown power regardless of the point on the round. That is why the 1911 Colt is one of my favored weapons for self defense, even if the magazine does not hold many rounds. There was one shooting incident a few years ago in the middle of a street. The coked-up armed perp was shot over ten times with copper jacketed 9mm rounds, yet kept shooting at the officers before he was finally killed.

    I have worked on several cases where game wardens and surveyors, both State and Federal, have been shot at. Some poachers do not want to go to jail, and then there are people who do not want agents on their property, so will shoot first and ask questions later. I have also been chased up a tree by a wild pig, and I only had a little .410 shotgun loaded with squirrel shot. If there had not been a tree handy that I could climb, she would have killed me. I had inadvertently gotten between her and her several little piglets.

  16. Black helicopters aren’t the issue.

    Inefficiency and arming units of government unnecessarily is though.

    The FWS has a 2.3 billion dollar budget and their mandate clearly covers coastal fisheries.

    Why the duplication of effort?

    This isn’t about Woods Hole or NOAA’s scientific functions. This is about why do they need police functions in the first place when the FWS already has/had jurisdiction over coastal water fisheries? If they have safety concerns for scientists in the field, it seems a lot more efficient to send an FWS officer or two out with them rather than give the agency its own police force even if that means expanding the FWS budget to cover the man-hours.

  17. “The question is whether we should be using dum-dums domestically when they are illegal in warfare under international law. While illegal in England and states like New Jersey, they remain common in the United States. Thus, we cannot use them against Al Qaeda insurgents in Iraq but we can used them on a suspect in a fisheries office?”

    I’m not a gun rights guy at all, but the better question seems to me to be why is hollow point ammo illegal in warfare? The answer given that it is too deadly doesn’t make sense to me. That or otherwise disabling them seems to be the point of shooting someone in warfare (or self-defense). So, my take is that the prohibition of hollow points in warfare is nonsensical (and probably a result of it being somewhat novel and offending to the sensibilities of the time). Thus, I don’t have a problem with cops (or citizens as long as we’re gonna allow them to be armed) to use hollow points. If it’s right to shoot a gun at someone, then it’s right to be effective in that shooting.

  18. “I’m not a gun rights guy at all, but the better question seems to me to be why is hollow point ammo illegal in warfare? ”
    ————————————————–
    So to me the even bigger question would be….who is currently playing by the rules anyway?

    I trust our Wildlife and Natural resource people (the ones on the ground anyway….), why did they say they needed them?

  19. No, the question that remains is why the hell people charged with managing our FISH population are being armed.

    It’s bad enough that our state armed the DNS. Now I can anchor out there on the big river in my little boat and wonder if it’ll be the feds or the state guys who shoot me for sitting in my boat wrong.

    You think that’s crazy? Some locals were stopped a few weeks ago by the DNR because they weren’t “sitting properly” in their boat.

    These communists want total control of the population and they will kill to get it.

  20. Creeper is that you and a Snow Goose???

    I think it’s because they are responsible for this area: ‘NOAA’s National Marine Fisheries Service is the federal agency, a division of the Department of Commerce, responsible for the stewardship of the nation’s living marine resources and their habitat. NOAA’s National Marine Fisheries Service is responsible for the management, conservation and protection of living marine resources within the United States’ Exclusive Economic Zone (water three to 200 mile offshore). ‘

    What I’d like to know is will they be keeping an eye on the BP’s and their buds in the Gulf? Also, all those pipelines and stuff out there could be a nasty target for eco-terrorists….

  21. Wow, feemeister, did you notice that the overwhelming majority of supply bidders were small companies operated by disabled Vets!…I guess it’s true that for many, the War never ends….

  22. Most people probably are not aware, but jacketed hollow point ammo has been used for well over thirty years in civilian LE in this country. So the selection of the JHP .40 cal ammo is not in itself out of the ordinary.

    There is an aspect of this purchase which most people I speculate are unaware of. The NOAA actually has a small uniformed service named the NOAA Commissioned Officer Corps; one of the seven uniformed services of the United States (the others are the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and Public Health Service of which the Surgeon General is the agency head). This service has only just over 300 personnel, but they are subject to the same rules of war or POW status as any soldier or sailor would.

    While most military services have their civilian LE investigative arm, the personnel in these must be civilians and not members of the military itself due to various jursidictional issues with civilians.

    Again, I think it is more important to determine the true intentions of any government agency rather than only focusing on instrumentalities they possess. It would be time better spent on ascertaining the former.

  23. You guys are making my second amendment remedy tingle, with all this macho talk about firepower, killing, and penetration.

    Oh, my, as George Takei would say.

    This thread provides a fascinating overview of the U.S.A. mindset.

  24. Darren,

    “Again, I think it is more important to determine the true intentions of any government agency rather than only focusing on instrumentalities they possess. It would be time better spent on ascertaining the former.”

    Although stated function is relevant, I’m going to have to disagree and I think Jefferson would as well. Intentions are nebulous and change with administrations and personnel. The way to prevent abuses of militaristic instrumentalities is to limit their creation and use at the onset.

  25. I just spent the last hour counting the number of separate military, para-military, and quasi-military groups that are entitled to be on my property if the need should arise.

    Mind you, I live within spitting distance of a Metropark that receives some funds from the National Parks and close to a border between 2 cities and counties plus one Great Lake.

    I stopped counting at 22 because I wasn’t sure where to classify the private investigator who was caught on one of my surveillance cameras a couple weeks ago. (My neighbor is involved in some sort of messy legal action.)

    (The surveillance camera system was installed a few years ago for the purpose of catching shots of the wildlife that roams our property. By wildlife I’m referring to the 4 legged, no thumbs critters.)

    So I stopped doing anymore research because it just got too depressing. It seems as though every agency, local, state, and federal has to have an armed division.

  26. Social Security Administration To Purchase 174 Thousand Rounds Of Hollow Point Bullets

    First it was the Department of Homeland Security, then it was the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and now the Social Security Administration is set to purchase 174,000 rounds of hollow point bullets that will be delivered to 41 locations across the country.

    http://www.infowars.com/social-security-administration-to-purchase-174-thousand-rounds-of-hollow-point-bullets/

  27. Multiple agencies getting these bullets. This can’t be a good sign.

    Here’s what the govt. is doing in Honduras: “http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/faultlines/2012/08/201281381310569607.html
    “Honduras has become the newest front in the US war on drugs in Latin America. The US has provided financial support for both the police and the military there in spite of its deep corruption issues.

    Furthermore, members of both institutions have been linked to a range of killings. Political dissidents, human rights workers and members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community have all been killed at alarming rates.

    In May, a mission in the Moskitia region, which was led by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), left four innocent civilians killed and four others wounded. It was followed by two more incidents where a US DEA agent shot and killed an alleged drug trafficker. Local communities have demanded a thorough investigation but so far nothing has been done.”

    Everything that happens elsewhere is or will happen here. Why are all these agencies getting bullets now? I don’t know. I’d like to know. I’d also like to know why Obama went to court to remove the judicial stay on NDAA last week.

    From RT.com
    “The mission statement of the US Social Security Administration is to deliver services that meet the changing needs of the public. They are doing that by placing an order for 174,000 rounds of hollow point bullets.

    The SSA has published a solicitation on the FedBizOpps website specifically asking for ammo manufactures to provide them with a quote for a massive order of hollow point bullets. The administration is on the lookout for the most affordable lot of 174,000 .357 Duty Carry Sig 125 grain bonded JHP hollow point bullet ammunition, according to a synopsis that accompanies their solicitation for quotes, although the mission statement of the federal agency offers no indication of why they are wanting any ammo, let alone tens of thousands of rounds.”

    Teach a man to kill a fish and he will kill the elderly as well?

  28. If this wasn’t so frightning, it would be funny. Imagine an entire department made up of Barney Fifes carrying weapons loaded with ammunition that have been prohibited since 1899! The mind boggles.

  29. Gene:

    I see your point, perhaps I did not convey what I was intending. While I agree that itk is very important to scrutinize the actions I believe it is more important to find out what the thinking is behind these actions. And I fully agree the stated intent is often different from the true intent, or there could be a situation where honorable intentions by one administration might be changed for the worse by another and if the mechanisms can be exploited for evil, it is problematic to say the least.

    Everyone:

    An observation I had from the past. Probably around 2003 the US Government dumped massive amounts of security and weaponry to certain agencies on the possibility of terrorists attacking critical infrastructure. A was a witness to this a few years later.

    Our department received a letter / phone call from the US Coast Guard, which administered a LORAN-C station in the area, offering to donate to us a set of spike strips that was to be used against semi-trucks and large vehicles. These were beefier than standard spike strips. Of course we wanted to take them, why not? Free.

    I drove over to the station and met with them. They told me they had received these in the wake of the Sept 11 attacks, none of them could determine any use for them so they thought they would give them away. I asked one of them why they got these in the first place. He told me that the gov’t poured M-4’s (M-16 like rifles), ammo and other defensive measures and weapons all over. In fact, he mentioned the LORAN station in Alaska got several cases of these. The government was over concerned that Terrorists were so widespread that a radio navigation array in Alaska would be the next target. The officer was pretty dismayed with the whole affair as being a waste of money and of no use.

    I wonder if the same type of thinking is going on with this ammo purchase or it is simply just a restocking of munitions. But that is for someone who has far better inroads than I. But we all should be vigilant of this or any government program.

  30. “The question is whether we should be using dum-dums domestically when they are illegal in warfare under international law.”

    There are other weapons that are allowed for domestic use but are illegal for use in war. Tear gas is a good example. We weren’t allowed to use it in Iraq because it’s a chemical weapon. It is allowed for use in controlling riots of POWs or in other specific situations, but can not be used in regular warfare.

    Hollow points are quite often used for firearms training. This is because of the reduced chance of ricochet, and because they don’t damage the backstop of the firearms range as much as regular full metal jacket ammo does.

    Hollow point ammo is certainly not illegal in England. In fact, it is required when hunting certain types of game because it reduces the suffering of the animal. Shooting a deer in the UK with something other than an expanding round is actually illegal.

  31. The legitimate reasons behind LE using hollow point ammo have already been explained, but regardless of that, you shouldn’t get too hung up on the fact that the Hague convention bans their use in warfare. The 5.56 mm NATO round that the M16 uses will tumble and shatter into pieces when it strikes a human target, creating massive cavitation of soft tissue and devastating wounds. We’re not dealing with clean through-and-through gunshots.

    So while it may sound superficially humane to ban hollow points, the bottom line is that getting shot by anything is nasty business, period.

  32. From feemeister’s link:

    “Prior to the blog being posted, CNSNews.com had asked the agency specific questions about its ammunition order. Although some of those questions were addressed by the information provided in the blog, the agency did not say why it needed 174,000 bullets and if that quantity was customary or had increased from previous orders.”

    And that is a very valid question.

  33. The original source for the SSA’s explanation, not provided by CNSNews, is at
    http://oig.ssa.gov/newsroom/blog/2012/08/social-securitys-oig-responds-concerns-over-ammunition-procurement

    I decided I’d better find the original when I read the statement, “CNSNews.com relies on individuals like you to help us report the news the liberal media distort and ignore.”

    Call me eccentric, but I don’t swallow news from sources that use the phrase “the liberal media.”

    I just left a comment, asking whether an order of 174,000 is customary. You could ask, also.

  34. I don’t see a comment on there. Maybe it goes on a waiting list, until it can be reviewed to see if it’s inflammatory. They certainly didn’t want any comments they didn’t like, did they!!! I’m really wondering if they’ll publish any comments at all. They said they have 295 agents, so that would mean 596 each.

    I’m thinking that they’re asking people to send in what they think looks important (as I tend to do to some places at times). Most of these stories are not published in mainstream media.

    I certainly had no idea that the SSA had it’s own ”army!” I wonder if every federal agency does? I would have thought they would have used federal marshalls if they had needed any ”help” for things. I kind of thought that was what federal marshalls were for.

  35. Yeah, they told me they’d review my comment before publishing it. I didn’t know SSA had agents, either. They weren’t covering it up, most media didn’t think much about it, apparently. Not sexy news, I guess.

  36. The SSA has posted the comments, and this rather thorough response:

    TheSSAOIG

    Regarding our training requirements, we must comply with those set forth in the Attorney General Guidelines for OIGs with Statutory Law Enforcement Authority. You can find those guidelines here: http://www.ignet.gov/pande/sta….

    One of these guidelines is mandatory quarterly firearms qualification, which is required of every Federal law enforcement agent to ensure agent and public safety. This critical training expends a considerable amount of ammunition. We have about 295 criminal investigators who must qualify with a firearm four times per year. If each investigator uses 150 rounds per qualification, then we would need 177,000 rounds per year. This number can vary based on the total number of agents, and any type of specialized training we might undertake.

    To answer some other comments, this is a routine procurement that we typically make every fiscal year. The exact amount purchased varies some from year to year. For example, we may purchase more ammunition in a given year given available funding, and then purchase less the following year. Generally speaking, though, the amount of ammunition we use every year has remained consistent since the mid-1990s, when our office was created after Social Security became an independent Federal agency.

    Finally, we certainly can’t speak to the type of ammunition the U.S. military uses. However, nearly every law enforcement agency—local, State, and Federal—uses hollow point ammunition, because it has been determined that it is most effective for law enforcement purposes. We purchase this type of ammunition for training because it is standard law enforcement practice to use the exact same type of ammunition during training as is used during the normal course of law enforcement duties.

    Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this important conversation. We encourage your feedback and questions.

  37. Lots of bullets. You’re free to purchase your own. Is the SSA afraid of old people and invalids? Is granny going to try to shoot you?

  38. I retired from Social Security as a Disability Claims Specialist. I had very little opportunity to meet our “Special Agents.” So far as I know, they don’t roam very far from Regional Offices, and they only help prosecute people guilty of somes crimes that might incidently include SSA violations. Anytime I ever called OIG about a suspected fraud, somebody told me by phone how to conduct a fraud interview in the local office. Then they read my report and wrote a very convincing reply about why it wasn’t worth the government’s effort to prosecute. The three “Special Agents” I ever met were fat women who couldn’t grab their ass with both hands. They definitely didn’t match my expectations of a “Special Agent.” One was an English major, which probably helped with the afore-mentioned memos about not prosecuting.

  39. I worked for the NOAA-NMFS in the 1990’s. Now I know we had threats from fishermen from time to time because of the net ban, BUT we NEVER carried weapons even when the controversy was at its most intense. I was a Marine Biologist, and a female to boot, out ALONE on boats OVERNIGHT bearing the NOAA emblem in areas where there was known to be a fair amount of drug trade. (You see a boat running at night with no lights…it was a fair bet it was a drug boat). Not one person in our entire lab was armed. In fact, the only person who openly came to the lab armed was a disgruntled employee who wanted to shoot the place. No! No! No! Weapons were definitely NOT welcome at the Panama City National Marine Fisheries Laboratory while I was there. So yeah. I would like to know just what the heck is up with this “New Policy” of being armed and with freaking hollow points??? That is nuts! One or two of the people I worked with there back in the day I would not trust with a weapon as some liked their beer so much they would sometimes sneak a drink or two on the clock as we often worked for days straight (or for some of us it was common to have wine with our meals) and others were just too darned careless or clumsy! Yikes! What is going on and whose bright idea was this?

  40. Dennis 1, August 20, 2012 at 2:49 am

    I retired from Social Security as a Disability Claims Specialist. I had very little opportunity to meet our “Special Agents.” So far as I know, they don’t roam very far from Regional Offices, and they only help prosecute people guilty of somes crimes that might incidently include SSA violations. Anytime I ever called OIG about a suspected fraud, somebody told me by phone how to conduct a fraud interview in the local office. Then they read my report and wrote a very convincing reply about why it wasn’t worth the government’s effort to prosecute. The three “Special Agents” I ever met were fat women who couldn’t grab their ass with both hands. They definitely didn’t match my expectations of a “Special Agent.” One was an English major, which probably helped with the afore-mentioned memos about not prosecuting.
    ==================
    Sounds like TIGTA. So-called Special Agents. Give me a break. There’s nothing special about them. The federal government special agents are wasted space.

  41. And has anyone noticed that just in 2012 HP ammunition became once again legal for access for regular licensed person in state of NJ? No? It used to be crime to be found in possesion of even one round. It looks like some laws has changed starting 2012 and perhaps this is the reason. I am not discussing purpose of that ammo (just like I cannot get why one would want to have assault weapons home), but I am just noticing some coincidence.

  42. Dennis,

    You are funny and address the most important point.

    How long has SSA had Special Agents. No fitness tests needed?
    Don’t believe the fat one could get off that many rounds to pass quarterly qualification, not even from a wheelchair.

    Keep everybpdy scared is the solution, in some eyes.

  43. The motivation given for the Geneva (?) convention given officer candidates was:
    The purpose of shooting is not to kill, but to cause a casualty who leaves the line of fire,and requires care.

    Don’t think tear gas is included, or otherwise why did we have to sit in a tent full of it for endless minutes after taking off our masks?

    The purpose of shooting a perp is another, I presume.

    Shoot one hand, diasabled that one. Shoot the other hand, then watch out for his karate kick. Shoot him in the belly, then call the meat wagon.
    and any next of kin, if known.

  44. “How long has SSA had Special Agents. No fitness tests needed?”

    I was hired in the 70’s. We had Special Agents assigned to Office of the Inspector General (OIG). I don’t know about physical tests or if they were maintained. I know I couldn’t become one, because of my eyesight, even though I corrected to 20/20. They usually “investigated” with U. S. Marshalls, Secret Service, or police organizations. The public could keep dead Grandpa’s check and get away with it, but if they had 2 Social Security numbers while robbing a bank, the FBI would consult with SSA. Most people investigated for SSA offenses, had other problems with other agencies, in my personal experience.

  45. Dennis,

    “…….the FBI would consult with SSA. Most people investigated for SSA offenses, ha’d other problems with other agencies, in my personal experience.”

    Doesn’t this take away the need for SSA arming. Why should they go to a site where conflict is expected. We don’t call in techies before the shooting has ended. If the proof of fraud is there, it still wil be after the hit.

    Thanks for the inside info.

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