Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger
In my Social Work career I spent 37 years working primarily with people in poverty, whether from Race, ethnicity, economic situations, criminal history and/or addiction. In my Psychotherapy practice (part time) my patients were middle to upper class economically and yet as the years have passed my memory of them has faded. Still remaining though, burned into my memory, are the lives of those I met who lived in poverty. We see in this current Presidential election a sharp contrast between the philosophies of the two candidates. One believing in lowering peoples expectations for and the receipt of, what he deems “entitlements”. The other who defends what he calls self-funded programs and championing the Federal Government’s intervention to make health care more accessible. There is, however, one economic/social area where both candidates fully agree and this agreement represents exactly what is wrong with our country.
Mitt Romney and Barack Obama, by their words and deeds, both believe fervently in the notion of the “American Dream”. If we look at the history of their lives we can understand how from their perspective, their lives have typified the “America Dream”. Romney was born wealthy, went to the best schools and came from a family that was highly prominent in his community. Obama, though born the child of an unwed mother, had the benefit of her intelligence, in addition to Maternal Grandparents who were relatively well to do. Their lives, though having different arcs, led them both to the point where they are competing for the highest office in the land. Neither man is lying when they extol America as the world’s shining light of opportunity for all, because their own lives bear that out. To me the problem is that reality shows that they are wrong in their belief and in their clinging to the myth of the “American Dream”, they ignore the most important issue of our time, American inequality of opportunity.
This week I read an article by Prof. James Karabel, of the UC Berkeley. Its title was: Grand Illusion: Mobility, Equality and the American Dream.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jerome-karabel/grand-illusion-mobility-inequality-and-the-american-dream_b_1933238.html
I believe my many years working both on the front lines of poverty and as an executive in most areas of Social Services I qualify too as an expert on poverty and its scarring effect on people. Then too in my experiences as a psychotherapist I’ve learned something about the human psyche and how it can be negatively affected. So in my own mind at least I believe that I am enough of an expert to state categorically that the professor knows what he is talking about and that I completely agree with him. Professor Karabel writes:
“[T]his cherished view of America is now a myth. The reality is in fact quite the opposite: Family origins matter more in the United States in determining where one ends up in life compared to other wealthy democratic countries. This is a recent development. Studies of social mobility as far back as the 1950s and 1960s showed that rates of movement in the United States were generally comparable to other developed countries. This finding itself challenged the longstanding image of America as exceptionally open, but it is a far cry from today, when the United States rates at or near the bottom in comparative studies of social mobility.
To take just two examples, a study by Jo Blanden and colleagues at the London School of Economics found that a father’s income was a better predictor of a son’s income in the United States than in seven other countries, including Germany, Canada, and the United Kingdom. And a review article by Miles Corak at the University of Ottawa, based on 50 studies of nine countries, found the United States tied with the United Kingdom as having the least social mobility, trailing not only Norway and Denmark but France, Germany, and Canada.”
There are many studies that back Professor Karabel’s thesis. One such from the moderate Pew Research Center states the following in its summary of findings regarding the vitality of the “American Dream”.
http://www.pewstates.org/research/reports/pursuing-the-american-dream-85899403228
“ Those born at the top and bottom of the income ladder are likely to stay there as adults. More than 40 percent of Americans raised in the bottom quintile of the family income ladder remain stuck there as adults, and 70 percent remain below the middle.
African Americans are more likely to be stuck at the bottom and fall from the middle of the economic ladder across a generation.
The renowned Brookings Institution, which is economically “Centrist” also, did a study on upward mobility in America, which was intertwined with how the reality affected the “American Dream” meme. In it they examined all sources including the Pew Report cited above. Among the Brookings conclusions were:
“What is clear is that in at least one regard American mobility is exceptional: not in terms of downward mobility from the middle or from the top, and not in terms of upward mobility from the middle — rather, where we stand out is in our limited upward mobility from the bottom. And in particular, it’s American men who fare worse than their counterparts in other countries.[16] One study compared the United States with Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and the United Kingdom. It found that in each country, whether looking at sons or at daughters, 23 to 30 percent of children whose fathers were in the bottom fifth of earnings remained in the bottom fifth themselves as adults — except in the United States, where 42 percent of sons remained there.”
http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2011/11/09-economic-mobility-winship
A New York Times article in January 2012 by Jason DeParle titled: “Harder for Americans to Rise from Lower Rungs” examined the research available and also noted that even many o the Right, like Rick Santorum, were beginning to express concern for this American decline of “Upward Mobility”:
“Benjamin Franklin did it. Henry Ford did it. And American life is built on the faith that others can do it, too: rise from humble origins to economic heights. “Movin’ on up,” George Jefferson-style, is not only a sitcom song but a civil religion. But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage.”
“One reason for the mobility gap may be the depth of American poverty, which leaves poor children starting especially far behind. Another may be the unusually large premiums that American employers pay for college degrees. Since children generally follow their parents’ educational trajectory, that premium increases the importance of family background and stymies people with less schooling.
At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints. Meanwhile, just 8 percent of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth. That compares with 12 percent of the British and 14 percent of the Danes.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
At the end of this piece I’ll offer more proof and studies on the desperate state of the “American Dream”, but I think what I’ve presented so far makes the case that the “American Dream” has become more myth than reality. Now I’d like to examine what I think about all of this and why it is mostly absent from the discussions of the issues in this coming election.
Thinking about the breadth of American History and the fact that it is intertwined with racial, ethnic and economic strife throughout, it is amazing that this country, made up of so many ethnicities and races, has been as stable as it has been when compared to other industrialized nations. I contend that this is because a vast majority of the population has bought into the myth of the “American Dream”. This myth where every child can grow up to be famous, rich and President has lowered the discontent of those born on, or near the bottom and filled them with the demonstrably false presence that rising from a lower caste social state can be done only if they try harder. While on the anecdotal level this is true in that many instances can be found of the “rags to riches” story, on the statistical level the truth is that it is a very rare occurrence. As the studies show if you are born at, or near the bottom you tend to remain there.
When “rags to riches” stories occur it is simply because a given individual has been born with superior abilities and/or has had extraordinary luck. As I have mentioned many times on the Turley blog, the Horatio Alger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Alger,_Jr
. the 19th Century novelist, provided much propaganda for the concept of the “American Dream”, during America’s “Gilded Age”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gilded_Age
, the great industrial and economic spurt that followed the Civil War and lasted until the end of the 19th Century. Alger’s books contained one overarching theme: The poor boy that with hard work and “pluck” rose from abject poverty to enormous wealth. The fallacy was that in every one of his many novels, the “poor boy” was taken in hand by a wealthy gentleman, who helped his rise and even offered his daughter’s hand in marriage. Nevertheless, to a population made up of the rural poor moving from farms to factory work and of immigrants freeing the chains of European and Asian autocracy, these books had a tremendous influence on their aspirations.
We must understand that after the Civil War killed 600,000 and maimed so many more there were plenty of jobs available during this country’s rise into the Industrial Revolution. Also comparatively at that time the living conditions for most in other countries were characterized by rigid class systems and oppressive governance enforcing the class distinctions. As the 19th Century drew to a close the “American Dream” became entwined in the fabric of American mythology and simultaneously fostered the concept of “American Exceptionalism” that was the main foreign policy feature of “Progressivism”
At this point the “Right” and the “Left” of this country established their main point of agreement, which has lasted until this day. Both sides of the political spectrum accepted the idea that America was a shining land of opportunity for all and exceptional in its system. By both sides of course I’m talking about almost all of the politicians in both parties, in the two party system, which became rigid after Teddy Roosevelt’s “Bull Moose Party” run in 1908. This is ot to say that there weren’t many dissidents to the “American Dream” meme, but those dissidents were marginalized in the discussion by the press and the developing media.
So here we are today with evidence that the “American Dream” is in shambles and yet the Presidential Candidates and the majority of people supporting both parties still mouth the myth of America as the land of the greatest opportunity for all. This is destructive, not only because it isn’t rue, but because it prevents any real discussion of the problems we face in this country if we are to begin to return to its purported ideals of opportunity for all. How many of you reading this can say that your own lives were not touched by privilege of some sort? The “American Dream” is in my opinion a chimerical myth, with little substance behind it. Rising from importune circumstance though has always been the lot of humanity, though in our distant past it did depend initially on brawn and/or brains. What we are seeing in America today is the diminution of opportunity and the collapse of our once robust middle class. That as a nation we are so inculcated with this myths that even if a politician had the temerity to tell the truth about the eroding “American Dream” she/he would find their career buried under opprobrium.
I write this because of my anger at the continuing failure of this country to address the real problems endemic in preventing our society from being one of relatively equal opportunity for all. “All men are created equal” has never meant that there aren’t some among us who have greater ability than others. To me it has always meant that most people should at least have a fairly equal chance to achieve their aspirations dependent on their innate abilities. Is that too much to ask?
Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger
NOTE: The picture used up front is of Horatio Alger, Jr. Those who have read my writing here will see that this is a continuing concern of mine and consists of much of what I have written. I would also recommend Gene Howington’s Propaganda series as providing a view of how this issue continues to be hidden from our political debate. Some links backing my premise:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/17/social-immobility-climbin_n_501788.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/class-mobility_b_1676931.html
http://www.npr.org/2012/05/29/153918852/on-the-economic-ladder-rungs-move-further-apart
http://jonathanturley.org/?s=Gene+Howington
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/09/30/portents-of-the-new-feudalism/
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/09/29/the-nfl-and-whats-wrong-with-america/
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/07/07/mythology-and-the-new-feudalism/
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/10/what-motivates-the-1/
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/01/07/americas-transcendent-issue/
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/12/18/forget-wall-street-occupy-corporate-boardrooms/
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/08/20/jobless-in-georgia/
“Romney was born wealthy, went to the best schools and came from a family that was highly prominent in his community. Obama, though born the child of an unwed mother, had the benefit of her intelligence, in addition to Maternal Grandparents who were relatively well to do.”
What was the Romney family net worth when young Mitt was born?
Obama was born to an unwed mother? That’s news to the rest of us. The story is that she was married on February 2, 1961.
Do you think it is different in states such as Massachusetts where there are a lot of private schools versus states such as Wisconsin where most people go to public universities?
Wow, lot’s to discuss. The main theme is a given truth although Amdricans believe otherwise. Here some wise distinguish between jämnställdher=equal opportunity and jämnlikhet=equality.
I will mention my view that we did not have a really burgeoning middle class until after the second WW, when the corporatists discovered the advantages of continuous “war-like” conditions and the advantage of a consuming middle class.
The middle class is being milked to extinction, along with the lower 47 percent.
So the middle class had on economic base, I believe.
It was created and now will be made serfs, educated, qualified, ambitious: but equivalent to computer driven machines or the supervisors to oversee the multitude of workers in agricultural maxi entities in the 1920s in Sweden. In NC we had small leasers of tobacc land, sharecroppers. In Sweden, all were paid in goods and moved once a year if they wished. Serfs, but not bound to the land.
What do the one percent contingent envision now.
I don’t think that either Prez candidate believes in the myth. Just necessary BS to keep the proles quiet. Like heaven to the Christians. BS is useful.
Great work, MikeS.
“What is clear is that in at least one regard American mobility is exceptional: not in terms of downward mobility from the middle or from the top, and not in terms of upward mobility from the middle — rather, where we stand out is in our limited upward mobility from the bottom.”
The essence of “being kept down by the man” which is increasingly becoming the true story of America.
How would Alexander Hamilton have fared today?
Not very well, I’m afraid.
The elite 1% certainly know what Mike S has written is true.
The following comes from “The Plutonomy Memos” written by professional CitiGroup investment operatives to their 1% clientele:
(The Homeland: Big Brother Plutonomy). That memo is verbotten but there are copies of it available for download.
A very recent study by a university shows that the “America” in the dream is no longer there, because the dream has moved offshore and has become a web of a kind that is not generally considered to be real.
A nightmare is a more apt description now.
oops …
corrected link: (The Homeland: Big Brother Plutonomy). You can download the forbidden CiteGroup memos quoted from in my comment above.
The saddest thing seeing Dredd’s?, Genes and ID’s comments is this is a tale that practically writes itself since there is so much proof out there. Yet the majority of the people still don’t know it’s true.
kaysieverding,
October 6, 2012 at 1:40 pm
Do you think it is different in states such as Massachusetts where there are a lot of private schools versus states such as Wisconsin where most people go to public universities?
*****
We have excellent public colleges, universities, and community colleges in Massachusetts. Many young residents of this state attend them. I graduated from a state college–as did many of my friends, two of my nieces, most of my student teachers, and my son-in-law. There’s a lot of students who attend private colleges and universities in Massachusetts who come from out of state
It certainly is difficult to achieve these days. A certain amount of luck, hard work and a very high IQ might be the ticket. I am thinking of the Castro brothers.
Mike,
One of the things I find tragic is the members of the middle class who are slipping into poverty.
Here’s an interesting article from Rolling Stone:
The Sharp, Sudden Decline of America’s Middle Class
They had good, stable jobs – until the recession hit. Now they’re living out of their cars in parking lots.
By Jeff Tietz
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/the-sharp-sudden-decline-of-americas-middle-class-20120622
Excerpt;
Every night around nine, Janis Adkins falls asleep in the back of her Toyota Sienna van in a church parking lot at the edge of Santa Barbara, California. On the van’s roof is a black Yakima SpaceBooster, full of previous-life belongings like a snorkel and fins and camping gear. Adkins, who is 56 years old, parks the van at the lot’s remotest corner, aligning its side with a row of dense, shading avocado trees. The trees provide privacy, but they are also useful because she can pick their fallen fruit, and she doesn’t always have enough to eat. Despite a continuous, two-year job search, she remains without dependable work. She says she doesn’t need to eat much – if she gets a decent hot meal in the morning, she can get by for the rest of the day on a piece of fruit or bulk-purchased almonds – but food stamps supply only a fraction of her nutritional needs, so foraging opportunities are welcome.
Prior to the Great Recession, Adkins owned and ran a successful plant nursery in Moab, Utah. At its peak, it was grossing $300,000 a year. She had never before been unemployed – she’d worked for 40 years, through three major recessions. During her first year of unemployment, in 2010, she wrote three or four cover letters a day, five days a week. Now, to keep her mind occupied when she’s not looking for work or doing odd jobs, she volunteers at an animal shelter called the Santa Barbara Wildlife Care Network. (“I always ask for the most physically hard jobs just to get out my frustration,” she says.) She has permission to pick fruit directly from the branches of the shelter’s orange and avocado trees. Another benefit is that when she scrambles eggs to hand-feed wounded seabirds, she can surreptitiously make a dish for herself.
By the time Adkins goes to bed – early, because she has to get up soon after sunrise, before parishioners or church employees arrive – the four other people who overnight in the lot have usually settled in: a single mother who lives in a van with her two teenage children and keeps assiduously to herself, and a wrathful, mentally unstable woman in an old Mercedes sedan whom Adkins avoids. By mutual unspoken agreement, the three women park in the same spots every night, keeping a minimum distance from each other. When you live in your car in a parking lot, you value any reliable area of enclosing stillness. “You get very territorial,” Adkins says.
Well done Mike. It is sad, but so true. This fact is evidence why the Koch Brothers are spending so many millions to keep the poor and the middle class down.
I am of the opinion that the Koch Brothers and their ilk are actually communist agents. Their actual goal is to make conditions for working people so awful while they wield their wealth to crush any hope of improvement and in ostentatious displays of over excess. The end result, once the morans who are supporting it at the ballot box wake up to what is being done to us will be violent revolution. Revolution because they will be denied any non-violent options. Since they claim communism is the opposite of what they are the revolution will decided that must be the correct solution.
If that is not their goal then they are incredibly short-sighted to the point of being suicidal because that is the direction they are marching us.
Swathmoremom, My immigrant Uncle Charlie, who started as a janitor in a factory and earned his engineering degree working for GM would always say to me, “The harder you work, the luckier you get.” He was right.
THERE’S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN O and R..
If you want a difference, see this:
A bunch of pointed headed college edumacted folks talking together agreeing on something. WOW. It, of course, is total and complete garbage. All those millions of folks who came here from poverty, from Europe, never helped create the illusion of the American Dream. It never happened. It isn’t happening today with today’s immigrants. Sometimes when you deal with college edumcated folks I wonder if the more edumcation you put into their heads the more common sense comes out the other side. It is unbelievable the total and complete lack of common sense this article lacks. It is amazing, just amazing.
The level of poverty in America has stayed almost EXACTLY the same for 50 years. Why are most people in poverty today? Just think? Take those $70,000 to $120,000 degrees and think? Dropping out of school? Unwed mothers? Teenage Pg? No way right? No let’s look deeper.
The American Dream really isn’t happening today, no way. My father the WWII vet with the 3rd grade edumcation and my mother both lived thru the depression. They somehow raised 7 children in below middle class living. Sometimes well below. ALL their 7 children (some of which didn’t go to college) became more successful than them. ALL of their children’s children, except 1, has become more successful than their children, but NO there American Dream is dead. It doesn’t happen anymore. Just about every person I worked with as a firefighter had children that are MORE successful than they are. This is even after a very tough economic time.
I take it the millions of folks who dream of coming to America don’t believe in the American Dream either. You know growing up as a good, old fashioned, Saul Alinsky liberal in the 1960′s I had a dream of a better America and fought for it. What amazes me today is how negative liberals are about American life. It is even more disheartening about how liberals and too many Democrats are so negative about the American Dream and people doing things for THEMSELVES and creating their own wealth. The only answer ANY liberal and Democrat seems to have for any problem is to look to Gov’t for everything.
Whatever happened to the Democratic Party I grew up with? Whatever happened to the Party that use to ask – “Ask NOT what your Country can do for you. Ask what YOU CAN DO for your Country.” What happened to the party of personal responsibility and individual freedoms? What happened to the party of – you will succeed of if you work hard enough, you can do anything? It seems to have become the Party of Ask the Federal Gov’t for Everything.
you know when i was a boy growing up in the sixties i knew it was a mans world and if you break the law you go to jail. now i have seen it deteriorate into still a mans world but now you won’t go to jail if you’re caught.
it is a more corrupt world and there is no rule of law anymore unless you are brown skinned.
the young are optimistic only because they know the gloves are off and anything goes.
women are far more objectified as a matter of course and it seems to be a accepted reality.
the world has devolved and while i wake up everyday a optimist, i go to bed a cynic.
hey glenn, people don’t respond to “ask what you can do for your country” bs anymore because while myself and my peers as well as those progressives who came before were campaigning in american towns and cities for a better world, the defense department was walking before us spraying the same neighborhoods with radioactive and chemical materials destroying peoples lives.
but it’s getting late in the day.
Jim,
To protect yourself against all that spraying in your neighborhood, why not just war a tinfoil hat and fuhgeddaboudit.
bill.
wake up. why do you come to a site like this if your mind is that malignant
.
http://rt.com/usa/news/us-radioactive-louis-martino-taylor-443/
i feel sorry for you.
glenn 1, October 6, 2012 at 4:33 pm
What is the difference between “American Trance” and “American Dream”?
The answer is: evidence.
“A bunch of pointed headed college edumacted folks talking together agreeing on something.”
“What amazes me today is how negative liberals are about American life. It is even more disheartening about how liberals and too many Democrats are so negative about the American Dream and people doing things for THEMSELVES and creating their own wealth.”
“What amazes me today is how negative liberals are about American life.”
Glenn,
I don’t mind at all that you disagree with me, but what is disheartening is instead of attacking the studies I listed by Pew and Brookings, with facts of your own, you go off on a rant. Why do you assume I’m a liberal? Is it only conservatives that believe in the American Dream and are willing to fight for it?
I don’t think the facts show that either. While your father went off to war believing in this dream and you fought for it in the 60′s with Saul Alinsky as your model, most of today’s prominent conservatives have spent their lives pursuing wars that they and their children won’t fight in. As far as Alinsky goes I to admire him: http://jonathanturley.org/2012/01/28/who-in-hell-is-saul-alinsky/ , as I showed awhile back.
I’m negative about the “America Dream” because the facts show it is dead, or dying. By refusing to listen to the facts you are assisting in its death. The only way to keep it alive is to realize that there are people who are succeeding in their attempt to destroy it and to spread the truth about them. It may be too late, but that’s what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to revivify the dream if possible and that rebirth will not come when there are people like you that won’t pay attention to the reality of what is happening.
“Whatever happened to the Party that use to ask – “Ask NOT what your Country can do for you. Ask what YOU CAN DO for your Country.” ”
While I admired Kennedy greatly, that line grated on me when I heard him speak it at his inauguration. It grated because that was the same line of reasoning followed by Dictators like Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin. Their belief was that the individual should subsume their need to that of the “Fatherland”.
Kennedy use of it was unfortunate.
“it is a more corrupt world and there is no rule of law anymore unless you are brown skinned.”
Jim2,
A true statement as in:http://jonathanturley.org/2011/11/26/the-incarceration-of-black-men-in-america/. Criminal laws attack upon Black people continues to make it hard for them to achieve the “American Dream”.
Bill McWilliams,
An answer to Jill Steins candidacy and the meme that both Presidential candidates are alike: http://www.scribd.com/doc/105746735/The-2012-Election-My-Attempt-to-Be-a-Responsible-Voter
Make,
They are only 47% off…… Then again from nals thread this day….the MOE is only 1%………
Neither the words “Conservative” nor “Liberal” are defined very well in America in the year 2012. If you run across a proud, jolly conservative in the South and probe him and scratch for some pontification, you will eventually get to some the major tenants of Lee Atwater and the Southern Strategy, The guy does not approve of people living off welfare, being uppity, and essentially being a minority. A self described Liberal these days will say the reverse on the race issues and focus on things like education, loans for education, fair play in work issues, no war, and civil rights, particularly the right to take care of one’s own body, with a high regard for real science and not Todd Akin pregnancy or to hell with global warming rants. A good prep school education seems to be a warming pool for a mind like Todd Akin. They can go there and wink and nod and then go home and listen to daddy go on and on about Obumba. Somehow daddy’s rant takes hold.
There is a great logical fallacy in the notion of the American Dream. It will always be true that “anyone” can get ahead. HOWEVER, it violates the laws of logic and of economics to extrapolate that to mean that “everyone” can get ahead. A society can only support so much economic activity, and that caps the number who can succeed, even though any particular person can be one of the ones who does. This is an example of what is called the “fallacy of composition.”
An analogy: Any American-born citizen can be President. But can **every** American-born citizen be president?
Or, consider education. If any one person gets (say) an MD, a JD and PhD, his or her employment opportunities go up. But if everyone had these degrees, the effect would just be a lot of overqualified and unhappy unemployed people.
The opportunity to live the American dream is still alive. People immigrate to this country to improve their life in the millions. It’s sad that people here don’t grasp the opportunities that are here.
Correction: Barack was not “born the child of an unwed mother” Anne and Barack Sr. were married in Feb. 1961 and Barack Jr. was born in August 1961.
Mike S.:
An enjoyable read. Thought provoking and I and more importantly many others appreciate your insights. A couple of thoughts:
1) Could it be that one factor in this might be that some people have accepted their station in life within their socio-economic class and were at least content with remaining there? Not to say that anyone in a destitute situation would prefer this by a large measure but could it also be some people chose not to move from their current situation because there was social pressure to remain within the subculture that they had identified with during their life and not wanted to move up or down the stratification levels?
2) You had mentioned, probably in another thread that you subscribed to a “Dieest (sp) belief”. Essentially from what I had gathered you believe with such marvels nature has to offer, it could be only of such beauty that it could only be of divine creation. (if I may point out). That within science lies the notion of a divine creation due to the complexity of such.
For me, in the past few months, I finally came to somewhat of a resolution to a philosophical point a had in the background tried to address for over 30 years. Some elements within my church had argued for the notion of pre-destiny. That is, as you are certainly aware, the belief that God’s will is such that humanity is destined to follow His intent, and that all things happen for a reason. For nearly all of those 30 years I had catagoricaly rejected this notion, preferring the idea that free will overcame this. I have, for whatever it matters, come to a different conclusion recently.
I came to the decision that there is most likely only two outcomes for this and it is entirely dependent upon one fact. That is, either all things follow strict and absolute adherence to laws of nature, or there is randomness at even the most granular of properties.
If there is truly randomness at some level, meaning that laws of nature are not strictly applicable, then there exists truly random events and from this destiny or outcomes are not set in stone.
If it is the case where at the most elementry and basic level, all laws of nature, even at the quantum level and below absolutely and totally without exception must follow a predetermined set of rules, then everything that has happened or will happen in the present, the past, or in the future is already pre-determined and will only have one possible avenue or path for the future.
We as persons if the pre-determined, strict adherence to laws of nature is to be the case, we do not have even the slightest ability to predict what will happen in the future. The reason for this is we will never have the intelligence, nor will it ever be possible to construct a device or computer that will have the capacity to fully compute all the possible switches to analyize all the interactions that will result in a model of sufficient complexity to predict beyond a moment what is to happen in even the most local sense. The more time involved where the prediction is to happen or the area wider than beyond something of very narrow scope the more exponentially difficult it will be to determine with certainty the outcome. After all, it has to record events on every quantum level within the test area. Simply put, our minds will never be able to determine something of true “Fee Will” because our minds are factors of this strict adherence to laws of nature (by way of the biomechanics of brain function) and we believe we had “free will” when in fact since the functioning of our brains must follow the same laws of nature, the neuro-chemical changes that we process as thought are still of that same set of events that the laws of physics and nature have already determined to be of a particular outcome, which we interpret this as our own decision process.
So what for me came full circle in this long struggle with trying to accept what has become of “predestiny”. That is if the laws of nature at the most basic and granular level are strict and invariable, than we can at least take some consolation that there outcome might really be predetermined, and that despite all our worries what is going to happen is going to happen. We might be just here for the ride. Perhaps it might be just as well to take comfort in knowing this.
I suppose if the latter postulate I have made is of God’s intent when according to many beliefs he created this universe, it would surely follow if the laws of nature were unchangable, it could be argued that perhaps the unchangeable nature would infer God’s will. But this is just another part of faith I suppose.
just a thought.
In the title of this post Mike S contrasts “dream” with “reality”, then focuses on the dream vs the reality in the sense of economy, specifically equal economic opportunity or the lack thereof.
The U.S. Department of Energy makes an interesting statement about American economy:
(The Fleets and Terrorism Follow The Oil). If oil is the lifeblood of the American economy then it is also in substantial part the lifeblood of the American Dream which Mike S’s post concerns itself with.
A recent report would indicate that this portion of the dream, like Mike S indicates, is not real enough:
(The Peak of The Oil Lies – 2). If the lifeblood of the economy is affected by reality then the dream is likewise affected.
“Could it be that one factor in this might be that some people have accepted their station in life within their socio-economic class and were at least content with remaining there? Not to say that anyone in a destitute situation would prefer this by a large measure but could it also be some people chose not to move from their current situation because there was social pressure to remain within the subculture that they had identified with during their life and not wanted to move up or down the stratification levels?”
Darren,
I think you are describing one of the effects of social stratification that impacts upon people. From my own background, which is originally lower middle class, I can remember the effects on me. Growing up my parents only took me out to Kosher Deli’s, Diners and Chinese Restaurants that were decidedly not upscale. They were dead by the time I was 18 and so my social life became more dependent on friends who had grown up far wealthier than I had. They exposed me to what were upscale establishments like “Trader Vic’s” at the Plaza Hotel, The Rainbow Room, Copacabana and “The Playboy Club”. Back then you could drink at 18. I was very frightened at first and they took me in hand and introduced me to how I should handle myself. Instead of saying “can I have…..”, it was “would you get me”, etc. It took awhile, but I learned the nuances.
I think that many people born to lower circumstance fear the change and see themselves as being judged harshly if they step into what they perceive as a more upscale environment. Extrapolated into a multiplicity of social situations this might prevent them from attempting to move out of their comfort zone. There are numerous memoirs of poor kids getting into Yale, or Harvard and being looked down upon by their fellow students. These “nose in the air” attitudes become part of the way that social stratification remains strongly in place. Given my background and also my many interactions with people who believe their own bodily products have no odor, I abhor such social stratification and I think it harmful to society. This stratification exists precisely so that the “masses” are kept in their places and has been effective throughout history in that function.
“Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.” — Napoleon
“You had mentioned, probably in another thread that you subscribed to a “Dieest (sp) belief”. Essentially from what I had gathered you believe with such marvels nature has to offer, it could be only of such beauty that it could only be of divine creation.”
Darren,
I do consider myself a Deist (as were most of the Founding Fathers), who uses Judaism merely as what for me is a comfortable way of dealing with the ineffable. I must explain further because just the descriptive doesn’t capture the entirety of where 68 years of pondering the world has left me. By Deist I mean that I believe there is some creative force in the Universe that informs it, but that by the nature of this force, its motivations (if we could even call it that) are probably unknowable to us. Philosophically I believe in the teachings of
Rabbi Hillel the Elder:
“What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn”
“If I am not for myself, who will be? And when I am for myself, what am ‘I’? And if not now, when?”
As you know Jesus also believed this and stated it in his “Golden Rule”. What you may not know is that this was also formulated by Confucius in 600 BCE and by the Buddha in 500 BCE. Versions of it are also extant in almost all religions to the point where I think there is some Universal meaning behind it. I am not averse to the belief that the creative force that informs the Universe may have set in motion some universal law, like the conception of Karma, that actuates this. However, I wouldn’t bet the farm that this is reality and I also don’t negate the possibility that Atheists may be right. However, a thinking person has to develop their independent conception about what life is about and I choose Rabbi Hillel as my mentor in this and try to live my life accordingly.
From a really personal sense as someone who back in the day experimented with hallucinogenics, particularly LSD, Mescaline and Marijuana, I learned that our perceptions of “reality” can be very different at times. From those experiences with the malleability of reality, I believe that much is possible that our senses and science can’t grasp.
As you may remember I almost died two years ago ad received the blessings of a Heart Transplant. Being on the verge of death and recovering is obviously a life altering experience. http://jonathanturley.org/2012/01/22/from-the-bottom-of-my-new-heart/ What it did for me was it allowed me to re-examine the premises of my life (ten years of psychotherapy previously also helped) and put my experiences in context. I grew up amidst much sickness and death in my own family. I was a rather sheltered young man who suddenly had to fend for himself at 18, with no safety net other than my wits. From that I had developed an internal narrative whereby I was a victim of bad luck on many accounts.
However, therapy and then later being almost dead, only to be saved, sparked a revelation in me that in truth always existed below the surface. In my life, no matter what dangers I faced, things always worked out well. My sense, perhaps ego, is that because I’ve lived my life fairly close to Rabbi Hillel’s teachings I have been somehow protected and blessed in life. Neither wealthy nor famous, I have had all my personal needs met and blessed with a loving family and friends. Though without luxury, I live fairly comfortably. Without any apparent intervention I received a heart transplant in seven months which is unusually fast and it came just at the point I was despairing life. I am and always have been a blessed person and I think it is because my treatment of people has protected me. But who knows if that is just my self centeredness.
As far as pre-destination goes I am not keen on the idea for this reason.
If the creative force (God?) exists as a sentient entity, pre-destination would mean that the Creator is little more than a puppeteer, who has created the Universe for its own amusement. I can’t believe that an entity of such power and wisdom would be interested in playing a game to which it knows the ending. How more elegant it would be to set in motion the Universe and follow its development, perhaps with a little tweaking?
“He explained certain Opec members were deliberately increasing their stated oil reserves to flout Opec regulations, which allowed oil-producing countries to only produce oil at a rate calculated as a certain percentage of its total reserves.”
Dredd,
I don’t doubt the truth of this.
“I can’t believe that an entity of such power and wisdom would be interested in playing a game to which it knows the ending. How more elegant it would be to set in motion the Universe and follow its development, perhaps with a little tweaking?”
Agreed, Mike. A predetermined universe is like reading the end of a novel first. It makes the rest of the book merely an exercise and probably a futile one at that. That being said, any sort of god is simply beyond our ability and too far outside our frame of reference to understand. They/he/she/it may enjoy futility and empty motion. We’ll simply never know.
Mike lamented:
“I am and always have been a blessed person and I think it is because my treatment of people has protected me. But who knows if that is just my self centeredness.”
All good people are blessed, but not all are Honorable. You sir are both.
Carlin did a masterful bit on the “American Dream”. Look for it on YouTube and get schooled by Carlin’s iconoclastic genius.
“It’s called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.”
“It’s a big club — and you ain’t in it!”
“You have no choice. You have owners. They OWN you!”
“Why do we keep voting for these rich @&$?suckers who don’t give a $&@ about you and me?” (Romney rings a bell)
MikeS,
“Mike Spindell
1, October 6, 2012 at 2:20 pm
The saddest thing seeing Dredd’s?, Genes and ID’s comments is this is a tale that practically writes itself since there is so much proof out there. Yet the majority of the people still don’t know it’s true.”
We still believe in Jehovah, Allah, Christ, and the holy muffin in the sky, so why not this legend.
Like I said, it is like heaven which the christian church held out to theirs, a promise to help endure the hell of today. Not originally my thought, but I will allow myself a repeat of it.
bill McWilliams,
Just a quick comment, can’t hold back like most 3 yearl olds.
Thanks for the Democracy Now video, after quickly comparing Jill Stein and Roseanne Barr, it seems to me that she is genuine person, whereas Barr is a egotistical streber. Who would make a better president? Who cares, none hare a chance. Building a movement is the only hope we have. They could not handle an administration. Actually, no President can. They are formally head, but don’t steer the ship of the nation.
MikeS,
congratulations. you have brought out all kinds of people, more dare I not say.
Bruce,
Seldom do I agree with you. And actually I don’t know what is happening in America, but have seen some signs that show that this statement by you, has some basis in reality.
“People immigrate to this country to improve their life in the millions. It’s sad that people here don’t grasp the opportunities that are here.”
Yes, the immigrants do. However Americans have not the understanding of how it works here. Here we don’t understand the hard reality of the need for education, to rise if the entrepreneur sense is not there.
Many immigrants come fully or almost prepared, taking their MS and PhD in the USA, acquiring contacts and job market knowledge, contacts and what is needed to have a successful life here.
The problem is however that it was the sweet life in America which attracted them. And as the societies in India, etc. mature, then the jobs will be moved there, as they already are to a considerable degree.
Why the American middle class is scheduled to disappear next is perhaps due to them being regarded as equivalent to the “paper society”, ie replaceable by a computerized system at a high investment cost, but one with a very low operational cost. It is a matter of future planning, manipulation of the society and laws, and pure profit which drives their control system.
Darren Smith,
I appreciate your struggles. But no given quantum effect is ever given except in a statistical sense.
Pre-determinism does not exist in nature. It was once claimed by those calling themselves philosophers and scientists to be valid at the macrolevel, and then the quantum level began to be examined.
Whether god plays at dice or not is still up for discussion. That is to say, do strict laws apply to each and every quantum process? No, simply. We can predict within the boundaries you defined vv models, computing power and data input give certain outcomes. But far from allis possible for the limitations you gave.
Does that mean that God can compute it all or has set an immutable machine going which we can not effect by free will?
No, I think not. Just as I fully feel that what I decide to do is up to my free will. But I do not have the resources of whatever class and type needed to achieve all I wish.
And neither does the human race have the resources.
But free will is available to all.
MikeS,
re comments to Darren.
I was the only one of the management trainee group of 25 who tooked the bus to NYC from NC. I did not think it special, but my classmates did. No, matter I soon established myself as an outsider. And my fate has gone on from there, the man who could not see reality, because he was blinded in his crib.
Sniff, boo-hoo. Not at all. Just a late realization.
I am slowly being taught that I am self-centered by my gestalt shrink. He shows me from time to time to see if the idea will take hold in me.
My inherent belief is that whatever happens in a personal transaction is dependent on my only. Not due to a thousand other possible factors in the other persons life.
I am still struggling with it.
As for deism, I can’t think of one who could be so detached as to create creatures who love and care for each other, but itself be uncaring.
The oneness and the aloneness of being an individual is part of existence. And a deity who could look upon me and be concerned with me is hard to believe in.
But I do feel that I have been blessed, but also cursed, contradictory is it may seem.
Dredd,
“,,,,many Opec countries continued to increase their oil reserves, without announcing any new discoveries, and, all that while producing significant amounts of oil.”
Thanks for bringing it up again.
Why? We have sometimes here speculated on what the next crisis which will enable the next major steps in the change of our world. The “Citizen Act” to follow the NDAA and the Patriot Act.
War with Iran? But too small unless nuclear war breaks out.
The until now hidden oil crisis is my bet, since you mentioned it a couple of days ago.
What happens when that panic breaks out. It is easy for the “planners” to develop scenarios, find key leverage points where their action is needed, etc etc.
When? I’d say soon. Maybe one of the first things facing the President, whichever one it is. A highly visual symbol will be etched into our mindseye a la WTC. A national crisis will be declared by the President, activating his special powers. and the UN Security Council will meet to no effect. What then, I have no idea?
Will he be assisted as Obama was by Wall Street and the banks, the CD people,etc.? You betcha.
Will we hava any choice? Nope.
Will the world have a choice? Nope.
Is there any hope? Nope. We lost that in reality when the articles of confederation were signed.
Do you know how much the electronic funds floating in various forms around the net exceed the GDP of the world’s countries? By a factor of several million.
It hss to be kept in motion or the whole will collapse. What is the max times that deposits of cash can be loaned out in the USA? 20 times?
Multiply that by one thousand and you get a little idea on the scale of “electronic” money buzzing around.
Check out the crazy economist at RT. He is enlightening.
“But I do feel that I have been blessed, but also cursed, contradictory is it may seem.”
ID707,
Not contradictory at all, life is always bittersweet for everyone but psychopaths. As for a Deity that would create us with the nature that in the end we are alone, nevertheless it gave us the capacity to love and empathize, but the being alone part gives us the ability to love ourselves if we dare.
idealist707 1, October 7, 2012 at 3:00 pm
Dredd,
“,,,,many Opec countries continued to increase their oil reserves, without announcing any new discoveries, and, all that while producing significant amounts of oil.”
Thanks for bringing it up again.
===================================
OPEC nations kept sending in increasing numbers even though there were no new fields to support the numbers, and they were taking more and more out of existing fields.
The math did not add up.
So the study group of experts calculated as much as 70% excessive estimates.
This is a very serious threat to national security for the U.S. (the “American Dream”) and other nations, indeed, the world.
I say this because sudden increases in the price of oil as a result of finding out, or running up against the wall of no more oil on down the road, portend catastrophic results.
Like climate change, these things are prone to be denied by the insecure who give governments more time to do nothing.
Heads up!
The “American Dream” is different for everyone. In America, anyone can do or achieve whatever he/she has set out to do with themselves. So, early on, one develops his own “Dream,” and then starts pursuing it. Somewhere along the line, one “knows” if he has achieved it, etcetera. Most get there, if you have the desire and resolution; some don’t. Just the way life is.
MikeS,
“…..but the being alone part gives us the ability to love ourselves if we dare.”
When I summmrize each day, I often conclude that I am all that I have, so what should I do with that.
You above and Rabbi Hillel have mentioned some things that I reflect over.
For those who would be encouraged, in spite of it all, here is a serendipitous find from the net. After checking out Vi Hart at Wikipedia, there came a mention of the Khan Academy.
Check it out at Wikipedia, or go directly now:
http://www.khanacademy.org/
“Accelerated learning for all”
non-commercial.
has a new computer science course.
Not only Americans have dreams…..!
My morning help was a cousin to Lisa, who is working evenings instead. They are both Tutsis from Burundi-Rwanda, of the famous genocide of 800,000 victims.
She mentioned the ambitious program that the President is driving, called the 2020 program to achieve the same goals as Singapore.
She mentioned with pride the President’s kicking out of the French army, and the reduced influence of the colóns. She herself speaks fluent English and French, and probably several other languages.
They are putting their energies in becoming a computer programming nation. She feels it is the most progressive nation in East Africa.
What did I say about middle class jobs leaving us because we are too expensive in corporation’s eyes?
In 2020 we will see. BTW, it is warmed by the sun, but cooled by the high altitude. Join the immigrants.
idealist707 1, October 8, 2012 at 4:15 am
Not only Americans have dreams…..
=====================================
Indeed, I was just reading a post by Gary Hart, so I thought I would back you up and at the same time back up Mike S:
(HuffPo). Also Eddie mentioned Carlin who reminded us that to dream one type of dream we must first be asleep.
Now Gary Hart reminds us that when we wake up we can still use those dreams to extend the meaning of a dream, but sometimes reality is difficult enough without injecting dreams into it.
I followed my own advice and saw some videos at the Khan Academy (.org).
My favo subject: Astronomy/cosmology.
It begins with what formed our solar system, quickly to our earth’s formation 4.5Ga ago, and I bypass the rest to get to us: Homo sapiens sapiens as we are labled.
How long have we been around? Guess? 200,000 years.
Not much huh? How long since the CE (Christ AD/Common Era)? 2,000 years.
So our modern history, if I call it that, is only one part in a hundred of our species existence. And from hunter-gatherers to cell users in 10,000 years. Wow. We’ve gone a long ways in ten percent of our time.
Of course some could say, what took us so long. How long do you need using the same old spear, huh?
I wonder what the dinosaurs did to pass the time?
They were wiped out by a meteorits.
What’s gonna happen to us?
I’m predicting our heads will either explode, or we will develop two heads. One for ads, and one for government lies. The rest of the stuff though? The rainforests, whales, Disneyworld?
We won’t need to know about the rest, that is subsumed for our purposes in the other sets.
“BTW”, says your greatgreat grandchild with only one head to his buddy; “Remember when you could see the sun.”
“Yeah, when you didn’t have to carry these 5 pound person coolers, and wear superplastic coveralls. Nice wasn’t it.”, “They’re promising a lighter unit next year.”, “Say, do you remember old New York City?, “Do I? I remember when half of Florida went underwater. No great loss said some!”……….???
Dredd,
Thank you for that Gary Hart quote, because as you know Campbell has been a great influence on me and what I write here.
Dredd,
Thands for Gary Hart. I have no clue who is good to read.
Can’t agree with him on this:
“Myths which have no basis in truth, or which do not operate as metaphors for religious truth, eventually fade away with the passing of those who perpetuate them and in the face of reality and fact”
Some have
persisted for centuries, millenia, and they are not religious, but then I can’t do the Bible.
And it was nice to be reminded of Joseph Campbell, perhaps the most remarkable man I have ever seen.
He showed me that mankind could be seen with other eyes and POV. The commonality across the world was not the point to me, rather how much we are affected by our myths. Saw part only of his series “Power of Myth”.
Hart makes (his?) the point that it is comfortable to let myths and preconceptions decide.
Just as I wrote on the fact that prejudices as a phenominon are necessary, because we don’t have time or energy to investigate and judge each and every event.
Prejudice has unfortunately become a general pejorative, instead of a necessary part of life.
And when they become a social and ethical evil then they must be fought, whatever color or religion is involved, plus the usual ones mentioned in the laws and discussions.
As the friend of a friend pointed out, the black did not have to judge the white individual’s intention. He knew that when push came to shove that whitey would stick it to him. Prejudice? Yeah, a useful one.
Mike S, thanks for this thoughtful post. A few thoughts/questions of my own:
Your post and others’ comments seem to assume that we all agree on the definition of the “American Dream.” You indirectly define it as the notion that “every child can grow up to be famous, rich and President.” I tend to define it more as, “if you work hard and stay persistent, you just may be able to make it in this country.” “Make it” meaning live comfortably.
Isn’t your “definition” part of the problem? Sort of like the saying “you can be whatever you want when you grow up.” Being a somewhat new parent (25 months) and with another on the way (Oct 16), I cringe when I think of this as I think nothing is more further from the truth. IMHO, telling a child this is doing a disservice to the child. It’s a tough world out there.
I have been fortunate enough to, as you have, live comfortably without luxury, which is really all that I ask. Admittedly, I must often remind myself of this when I catch myself b*tching about how bad things are and where they are headed. This was based in large part on my hard work (or at least I like to believe that is).
I am not so sure that Romney and Obama actually “believe” in the American Dream concept, even though they act as they do.
Did the American Dream ever exist? Maybe it has always been a myth.
The 2012 update by this group supplies data on reduced economic
mobility.
http://stateofworkingamerica.org/
idealist707 1, October 8, 2012 at 2:06 pm
Dredd,
Thands for Gary Hart. I have no clue who is good to read.
Can’t agree with him on this:
“Myths which have no basis in truth, or which do not operate as metaphors for religious truth, eventually fade away with the passing of those who perpetuate them and in the face of reality and fact”
Some have
persisted for centuries, millenia, and they are not religious, but then I can’t do the Bible.
==============================================
Good points.
Dredd,
Do you think this blog thread, Amerian dream vs reality, died because it is too depressing, too obviously true or ????. It did come out on a Saturday social night, not the best time to be serious is it?
Friday was somewhat lively, and today is mostly duhhhh.
I was reading Juris and his take above, that looking to be Prez is out of line by MikeS. But as I see it, that was a hyperbolic attention getter, and was once a standard politician line of BS.
Juris says if he works hard, and if his young kids do too, then he can expect to and they can to expect to be comfortable.
Now that is a modest dream and alright. But the worst is that in reality he and his kids won’t have it nearly as good as he has now. Is he and many others of us refusing to look at the reality of what we are facing?
OT maybe, but some are speculating that Obama has lost it due to he now realizes that he is not steering the ship of state, that “they” are, and he has really nothing to say or contribute—-no matter how hard he tries. (This is my idea.) Amd that assumes that he has not lost it for many other possible reasons.
You should read Russ Baker’s Bush book. Just started again with it, and when Dubja comes on stage then you are wondering how this man could have become Prez.
GW lost his flying nerves, got taken off flight status, was shown to the door, and went looking for a retreat ANG a post to over-winter the Vietnam war and the rest of his seven year obligation.
And this is the ass who comes, supposedly, flying back seat in a carrier fighterplane to pose and declare “Mission accomplished”. And that is only 1/10000000000000-th of what that family has done. They and the crony list “OWN” this country.
Sorry for the rant. I’m going back to read more soon. Answer if you like. Or send me your rant in return. Always informative.
“I am not so sure that Romney and Obama actually “believe” in the American Dream concept, even though they act as they do. Did the American Dream ever exist? Maybe it has always been a myth.”
Juris,
No matter how you define the “American Dream” your sentences above get to the heart of what I was trying to convey. As to defining it my definition is not only the one that was prevalent as I was growing up, but also remember Jim Crow existed in this country officially until I was 20 and so people of color were also given to understand that growing up to be President wasn’t in their sights.
“I tend to define it more as, “if you work hard and stay persistent, you just may be able to make it in this country.” “Make it” meaning live comfortably.”
Even by your standards though “living comfortably” seems to be escaping most people:
As I had quoted above:
“ Those born at the top and bottom of the income ladder are likely to stay there as adults. More than 40 percent of Americans raised in the bottom quintile of the family income ladder remain stuck there as adults, and 70 percent remain below the middle.
African Americans are more likely to be stuck at the bottom and fall from the middle of the economic ladder across a generation.”
As a parent of young children you and I as a grandfather of 3, have to be concerned about this. My children are grown and are doing well, but I know how hard it is in life to take a career for granted, when the twists of the economy are so volatile. At least my kids have gotten their higher education and have good jobs where they are valued. I’m still paying for my youngest child’s education, which was a commitment I made to both my children. You will have that to worry about in the future as well as ensuring that when the times comes for school they will have good opportunities. I don’t envy you the task, knowing how hard it was for my wife and I. The upside is that I can truthfully say, from my personal needs, that the best thing I’ve done in this life is having the experience of raising children I adore and now being blessed with wonderful grandchildren.
Mike S.,
As a Father of 4 grown children and 2 grandsons, I enjoyed your last comment. I too feel that my greatest achievement is helping raising 4 good kids into good adults and hopefully have a hand in helping raising my grandsons.
“Dredd, Do you think this blog thread, Amerian dream vs reality, died because it is too depressing, too obviously true or ????.”
ID707,
I’m not sure that 60 comments is death, but there could be a distinct lack of debate because of all the reasons you cite. Then to, sometimes I portentously state the obvious ad people are too kind to call me on it. I would like to believe that the lack of debate is because most here agree with the analysis.
I the end though, because it is obvious, there is a certain belief of mine which I think it important to get across, even if no one hears. I believe that this country and the world are heading to complete corporate dominance in a feudalistic agenda that will make class distinction and class privilege the norm everywhere. The least I can do is speak out against it and try to get people to see the dangers they are facing. If they fail to see it around them, then they are prey to the elite. That is why I use my own name and that is why I keep harping on it. I feel compelled to take a stand against it, even as if I come across as merely a modern day Don Quixote.
ID 707, I did not state or intend to imply that Mike S was “out of line” as you put it, merely that my take was different than his on the concept of the American Dream.
“Juris says if he works hard, and if his young kids do too, then he can expect to and they can to expect to be comfortable.
Now that is a modest dream and alright. But the worst is that in reality he and his kids won’t have it nearly as good as he has now. Is he and many others of us refusing to look at the reality of what we are facing? ”
I think it a bit absurd that you claim to know that my kids won’t have it as good as I have it now. I can agree that maybe, generally speaking, my kids’ generation won’t be as well off as their parents’ generation, which maybe was what you were getting at. That aside, similar to the belief that housing prices will always rise, I find a constant rise in the standard of living of consecutive generations equally unrealistic.
Will a smaller house, economical car, and no cable television really mean the sky is falling? I understand that at some point there is a time to panic, but I am not so certain that the time is in the foreseeable future. We are headed in the wrong direction and is a cause for concern, I agree, but is it really that bad? I think many in my generation did have it too good, and either never realized it or took it for granted.
Mike S.
“As to defining it my definition is not only the one that was prevalent as I was growing up, but also remember Jim Crow existed in this country officially until I was 20 and so people of color were also given to understand that growing up to be President wasn’t in their sights.”
To put my perspective in context, I was born in 1980 and was fortunate enough to be raised in a middle class family. While we struggled financially when I was young, it was nothing compared to the true poor and by the time I was in high school, I had it pretty good. I did not have anywhere near the struggles you mention having above, and kudos to you for overcoming so much. Not to downplay Jim Crow, but I never seriously thought it was possible for me to be president and would bet that those who did think it was a real possibility, at least in my public school, were few.
“Those born at the top and bottom of the income ladder are likely to stay there as adults. More than 40 percent of Americans raised in the bottom quintile of the family income ladder remain stuck there as adults, and 70 percent remain below the middle.”
If I am reading this correctly (and please let me know if I am not), 30% make it above the middle? If so, I find that encouraging and quite impressive. I honestly thought it would be like 5%.
I, too, worry about funding my child’s education. But I also find it encouraging that there is at least a seed planted regarding more sources for free education (ID 707′s post about Khan Academy is one great source and Coursera.org is outstanding source for free quality higher education). If I only had the time… Hopefully those or similar other sources will be around when I retire.
Based on your post above, you have accomplished the American Dream in my book. in 20 years, I hope that I am that fortunate enough to speak of my children as you do yours and to be blessed with grandchildren.
keep tilting Mike
MikeS and Juris,
There I go again, going over the top and stepping on toes. Not gonna do the victim bit and explain why you should understand and forgive me.
For you own sakes, take what I say as just this—a guy trying to say something and not always with any skill, but not with ill-will. YOU can decide how you want to take my words, provocative yes, or aggressive and spiteful.
I exaggerated and used the death metaphor to describe the response to a magnificent and fantastically documented presentation of why we cling to our myths and comfort ourselves instead of facing reality.
I expected this one to go up in the 1,000s comments class. I have only read you a short time
and most always I think that now MikeS has beaten his earlier record, not in numbers but it getting to the heart of things.
And this time, enthusiastic as I am inclined to be, this one was IT again. The message on the end of the lance was simple. Face up to that they OWN you.
(MY words! and summation)
But instead you took my words as diminishing the value of the response. My disappointment was in the response not in you or what you’d accomplished.
You show so many times and ways here the value of enclosing hard messages in soft packages. And I still, obviously, have much left to learn there.
Yes, there are many reasons, including the one of “What’s new today MikeS? Oh, same old? Yeah, nice. See you late.”
But thet is the lotus-eaters problem, not yours.
You are not chicken little. The sky is falling, and the hard facts show it. Your ref list shows it.
We are all hugging our Teddy Bears, including Juris, and me. I literally hug my pillow every night to relax and sleep. What do you hug, I say to all here? Your belief in our myths? Go to it, I do too. OK?
Juris, I understand you and your position and only referred to you (not challenging directly), and even that was a mistake, I realize, by putting my words in your mouth. But it was an acknowledgement that your position was worth respect when I used your name. You know, giving credit where credit is due.
But you went on to defend your hopes. Go to it. Fine. No hope equals no life spark. But don’t waste your energies looking for someone like me (it is all in YOUR mind!!!) to get energized over.
We all hope. Just as you do. That is what gives MikeS (plus his kids and grandchildren) the strength to keep trying to awake us. And you to be a family father.
And it is why, I have joined the team, and beat on my tin drum. Not alsways nice to hear, but hope it will have some effect. Let us work together. The union was a poor instrument, but it did have effect. So what else can we do TOGETHER to improve our chances. Being born in America is not enough anymore. I thought it was in ’59 when I got my degree.
There are so many ways we are being manipulated. Just thought now of Fact ONE: the constant “today’s bad news” wears us out. That is simple, and effective. Is it a conscious tactic?
In simpler, not connected times, the world was far off, especially for us in the USA. And when the drugstore failed and closed, that was our village crisis. Now we got big skit with our breakfast, lunch and supper EVERY DAY.
Do your cortisol and adrenalin glands get tired? Mine do.
Keep your dreams, don’t let old men like me take them away from you. YOU need them to meet the daily constant challenges which you face as a family father. But keep an eye open and give a dime to the campaign. I say to myself, MAYBE Obama is gonna help us. That’s my dream.
Thanks to both of you for a useful lesson. As I have excused myself with before, I did not understand the ones I got before in life. Wish me luck now.
“There I go again, going over the top and stepping on toes.”
ID707,
There is nothing for me to forgive since you didn’t step on my toes. What you said was truthful and valid. I welcomed your comments, because they provided me with an opportunity to explain myself and because I do wonder at times at the seeming lack of comments and why that might be. The two guest blogs that I am proudest of received 47 and 33 comments respectively.
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/17/a-real-history-of-the-last-sixty-two-years/
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/01/21/the-authoritarians-a-book-review-and-book/
This has happened too, to all of the other guest bloggers and with the quality of their work, it at times gives me pause to wonder why. Were we in competition to see who could stir up the most reaction I’m sure we could each hit upon a formula for doing just that, but that is not what this is about. If the measure of popularity were the amount of comments then Gene Howington wins hands down with “What Makes a Good Law, What Makes a Bad Law”.
That was and excellent and thoughtful article (I’d link to it but I used up my two links) that received over two thousand comments on the thread. The truth is though that while Gene made some excellent points, worth discussing, almost two thirds of the comments were done by Tony C. and others as he battled a combination of “free marketeer” Randists and ultra conservatives trying to hijack the thread with their philosophy. He vanquished all comers with his logic and arguments, but in essence the discussion ran far afield from Gene’s original question and Tony wouldn’t let the misinformation of the digressions stand.
Perhaps many readers don’t realize the benefit Jonathan Turley has bestowed upon us guest bloggers. He gave us freedom to choose our own topics and has never tried to rein in what we choose to write about. It is a privilege for us to be trusted as we are. For my own sake, but I think the others feel the same, this has been a great blessing for me. In a sense it has given me another career as a “writer” who has been “published” at least on the Internet, at my rather advanced age. Because of our respect and affection for the Professor we all try to do him credit in our writing by being accurate, interesting, pertinent and civil.
My response to you wasn’t in umbrage, but in relief to have the opportunity to address something I’ve thought about for awhile. I suppose I could try to dredge up interest by finding something that would cause inordinate controversy, but if I approached my guest blogging in that manner I would be doing a disservice to Jonathan Turley and to the people who read his blog.
“If I am reading this correctly (and please let me know if I am not), 30% make it above the middle? If so, I find that encouraging and quite impressive. I honestly thought it would be like 5%.”
Juris,
Many of your comments are quite reasonable and you present much that I agree with. There is a point though that I think you’re missing and regretfully it does pertain to your being born in 1980 and so not living through the history that I have being born in 1944. My point and the one made in the quoted article:
“Studies of social mobility as far back as the 1950s and 1960s showed that rates of movement in the United States were generally comparable to other developed countries. This finding itself challenged the longstanding image of America as exceptionally open, but it is a far cry from today, when the United States rates at or near the bottom in comparative studies of social mobility.”
The middle class back in the 1950′s and indeed up until the “Reagan Revolution” in 1980 was thriving in America and made up the largest part of our population. Jobs were plentiful ad we were the world leaders in manufacturing. When Reagan took power you were an infant and so you have grown up in what in essence a different reality from mine. Reagan and his backers/handlers opened the door for American manufacturing to be shipped overseas. His smashing the PATCO strike signaled the decline of Labor Unions and encouraged many Southern States, with so-called “right to work” laws to lure the remaining manufacturing to their borders through tax incentives and a docile labor market. As I quoted from the Brookings Institution:
““What is clear is that in at least one regard American mobility is exceptional: not in terms of downward mobility from the middle or from the top, and not in terms of upward mobility from the middle — rather, where we stand out is in our limited upward mobility from the bottom. And in particular, it’s American men who fare worse than their counterparts in other countries.”
So perhaps 30% of people can rise into the middle class, but this is a small number relative to other industrialized nations and it is unacceptable in terms of our past history. Things are getting worse and that is caused through artificial means rather than necessity.
Now I could hang back and wait until later to answer, but as I was by chance passing by I might as well answer now. Ho Ho.
OK, sounds genuine and great. The whole shebang. I’ll buy it. Nothing more now of value to add.
Corrects any suspicions of JT steering or toadying to him or the folks here, or who sells the most ads.
I can’t write “straight”, so it will have to do this way.
I’ll google GeneH and will pick it up that way.
Both of your own links sound interesting.
Steering is often taken over by just who is here, apparently another factor. Can re-runs be an answer, I say facetiously. “Hey folks, pay attention this time, you—be quiet.”
Lacking anything deep to say, humor will have to do.
Your comment is impressive, as usual.
Does not cost much extra to humbly say the truth, I have found. No slicks intended.
MikeS,
A quick note on what you wrote to Juris.
Percentages are normalized figures. Great for comparison. But another question is the expansion of the “middle class”. Even that can be compared with the incomes percentage wise between countries.
How are we doing? Might be some surprises there too.
Am I wrong in guessing that ours has been creeping for some years? So which countries are expanding?
“What Makes a Good Law, What Makes a Bad Law”.
Cited7referenced 847 times according to Google.
Mike,
“I suppose I could try to dredge up interest by finding something that would cause inordinate controversy, but if I approached my guest blogging in that manner I would be doing a disservice to Jonathan Turley and to the people who read his blog.”
Yep.
MikeS,
“inordinate controversy” I think your blog here should have been sufficient. Instead we are today discussing the electoral college. Perhaps your mountain is too high. No one dares discuss how to scale it.
“We will go to the moon”, said Kennedy. And he said so many other good ones. One was cited herethe other day, but have forgotten it. On your subject I believe. He knew where the power lay, and tried to change it. Even using words.
Amazing.
When did we hear such words since? Unfortuantely, no one was listening, except the ones planning the turkey shoot.
ID 707, as you are aware, words are such an imperfect way of communication, especially without being able to tell one’s body language and tone of voice. No worries and thank you for the credit. I only wish I had more time to converse about things with you, Mike S and others. Unfortunately, I am at a time in my life in which it feels like the 24 hour day is 12. Not enough time in the day. I hear it only gets faster as the years go by.
If your not learning, your not living. I will listen for your drum beat in the future, and will have to make time to do so. Every now and again, I tend to like the beat. Good luck.
Mike S.,
Point taken. And yes, I have a lot to learn from you and others here. That is why I am here. You and ID 707 have more of something than I do, which only comes with time… wisdom. You also are well more rehearsed in history, which, unfortunately for me, I did not take an interest in until a few years ago. I have a lot of catching up to do with so little time.
I am surprised, however, that 30% of those do make it into the middle class. I thought the number would have been much lower.
So, your article begs the question – what can we do to bring back the American Dream? The problem, like so many others facing us today, is so complex – globalization, corporatism, lack of citizen interest and engagement in the political system, to name a few. Another, I believe, which I would appreciate your and ID 707s input on, is that not as many of our elected leaders, especially on the federal level, actually look out for our country’s long term best interest as much as their predecessors.
Juris,
As much as your 24/7 allow in the next few days, let’s regerd this as a chat line. Your choice.
I’m not looking for blab time but want to use you as a resource tapping what your generations take and views are.
Simple proposition. I’ll check in to see. If nothing comes no bad feelings.
I have no wisdom, not even from the most recent mistakes I make today. However the years and the distance to the forest makes its outline clearer.
Your 24/7 is overfilled. Be glad, Ask MikeS about empty days, as he has grandchildren and I don’t.
Meanwhile, I admired your defense and courage in offering an opposing position to one of our chief guest bloggers here. May you go long with it. But alligators will take off your leg. I was lucky. Not smart.
PS Since 3 years I have been defending myself with hurtful words. Laying it aside is difficult. Like a cactus, I am prickly all over.
As to your last question, I defer to MikeS. Better overview and bettter spoken.
PS that was since 3 years of age, not 3 years ago.
“I admired your defense and courage in offering an opposing position to one of our chief guest bloggers here. May you go long with it. But alligators will take off your leg.”
ID707,
I do get prickly at times, but never because someone would civilly express a different opinion from mine. Juris well stated his viewpoint and there are some things with which I agree as I stated.
“So, your article begs the question – what can we do to bring back the American Dream? The problem, like so many others facing us today, is so complex – globalization, corporatism, lack of citizen interest and engagement in the political system, to name a few.”
Juris,
That’s a broad, meaty question, that some day I might do a blog on. Let me give you the short answer for now, since I got some other personal stuff to take care of.
To bring back the “American Dream” we need to destroy the meme that it is real. By most Americans believing that they too can “make it big”, they tend to sympathize with those who’ve made it and therefore support those who are not acting in self interest of all the people. People need to realize how much we have declined as a society, with ever more limited mobility between the economic classes. If more than a majority come to realize this fact, then we have taken the first step towards taking back our country. This first step is exceedingly hard because the means of communication are mainly controlled by those who would continue this trend, which is specifically to turn this country back into a state of feudalism.
idealist707 1, October 8, 2012 at 6:05 pm
Dredd,
Do you think this blog thread, Amerian dream vs reality, died because it is too depressing, too obviously true or ????
========================================
I don’t know … it has a lot of comments.
It is as you say depressing what the plutocrats are doing, behaving like sociopaths or psychopaths, but talking it out can help.
As it stands now we really can’t vote our way out of it, but if we keep talking more and more ideas will hopefully show up.
MikeS,
I hope that I will always have the courage, which I feel I have, to name alligators if they swim in JT’s waters. You were not the alligator that I was talking about. You do say openly, often softly packaged, what you want to say. But you don’t take off legs.
Taking off legs is what happens IRL. A superfluous warning perhaps to Juris about RL.
And another reason I come back is to express my appreciation for the two blogs you mentioned and linked to. I ran around a long time touting Prof Altemeyer’s book, saying to contacts: “read only 40 pages, only 25 pages and you will understand people better than a PhD in psychology.”
The “last 62 years” was an equally big shocker.
I could not share those times in Amerca with you there.
But it seemed like one of the extremely clear-eyed views of reality which are rarely seen. Showing that there was in fact a red thread running through it all.
So learning that there were so few comments was surprising—my hyperbole being the understatement “surprising”.
Am glad to be reminded of both blogs. For personal reasons.
Let me end with a brag. I suddenly got the insight that the corporations were the occupying army, and the one percent were their generals. We were and are the colony. So where is their country, their loyalty, their ethic. I compare each multi-millionaire like Siegel or Koch or Romney to the feudal king who is dependent on the production of a hundred thousand households to be content. Do they care? They only want us to keep producing, quietly. And my interpretation of GeneH’s blog on “acts utilitarianism”. The sufferings of serfs weigh nothing, the benefits they produce for the king are enormously weighty.
And in his conversation at his club with his buddies, he will at times say: “Hey guys, didja see? Serfs up!
Time to raise the take out.”
“I suddenly got the insight that the corporations were the occupying army, and the one percent were their generals. We were and are the colony. So where is their country, their loyalty, their ethic.”
ID707,
You and I are both old enough to remember the 60′s and the privileged classes being referred to as “The Jet Set”. Then later on in the 70′s formerly American companies began to identify themselves as “multinationals”. Their country is the entire world, their loyalty (such as it is) is to their class and their ethic is “Do unto others……first”.
Thank you for your complements on those two particular blogs of which I’m proud.
“Do unto others….first.” I’ll remember that.
Let’s also add: “and constantly.”
Dredd,
It is only natural. The small frogs decide their calling order. Then they negotiate with the neighboring pond, snd then a stronger one or a falange emerges which lays several ponds under their control, etc etc.
And here we stand the United Frogs of America, ehh? and say how wonderful the cacophony is.
It is only natural which in some minds means good.
And the top frogs say “Grumppp”, and the small frogs agree and get another portion of mosquitos.
So what was the point. Not much other than we are overgrown frogs. The analogy was not good, but it tried.
To start the chatline, I will attempt to answer my own question, which was meaty indeed.
If I had to answer it in one word it would be…education. It amazes me how watered down this has become in this country, even though its price has skyrocketed (another meaty issue in and of itself). I will be paying my student loans down until I am 45 if I am lucky, and if not, until I am 55. I digress. An uneducated electorate is dangerously exploited by those in power. The second term of George W. and his cronies comes to mind.
The sad thing is that I think the majority of Americans are dumbing down and a faster and faster rate, when the irony is, with the world wide web, it is easier than ever to educate yourself, learn, or call someone out on their BS.
That brings to mind the recent debates. Countless times we heard each tell the other they were wrong on a certain point. Can’t we find out who was right? Just last night we heard each candidate blurt out studies supporting there budgets. They can’t all be right. Gives meaning to a saying I once heard from an old professor of mine … “There’s lies, there’s damn lies, and there is statistics.”
Where has “journalism” gone in this country? They use to be part of the stop gap for the BS but seem no longer. It seems that the masses simply accept that both candidates and their parties are full of sh*t. Most are turned off by it and don’t participate. Another major hurdle in the American Dream finish line.
But I do think the definition must be changed from “making it big” to simply “living comfortably.” To some, the meaning may be synonymous.
I am done rambling for now. I welcome all comments/thoughts/criticisms, etc., and will put my thick skin suit on just in case I get a prickly respone.
NB only two links per comment:
85 idealist707
1, October 12, 2012 at 5:27 pm
Well, I wrote you a short, for me, answer and dropped it somewhere these things disappear into.
Now no promotion at all.
Try these:
1) MikeS. a book review.
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/01/21/the-authoritarians-a-book-review-and-book/
2) Where you can download the book reviewed by MikeS.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
“3) Noam Chomsky has an article on “Why Main Stream Media is Main Stream.” Also revealing his views on society as a whole, and academia.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199710–.htm
4) Why and how we are lead by the noses even today, it all started after WWONE, but it is not heavy, just a book review in wikipedia. An eyeopener and appetizer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Political_Economy_of_the_Mass_Media
==========================================
“If you approve I have some others, each quite practically connected to the world today, myth banners simply.
Like Hans Rosling who shows that EDUCATION is most important of all to “underdeveloped” countries, as health rises with it and number of kids per family falls greatly. As you say, for us too.
He went for his post-docs to India, where he found that his fellow students could do the text 5 times better than he could. He, being in the top 5% of his doc class in the top school in Sweden, was surprised.
He is a researcher in public health systems who has developed a way of graphing stats live, and cued by him, that together with his way of talking has fascinated people around the world. He takes stats from national health sources and makes them sing. Loudly.
—————–
And Daniel Ellsberg who was not a traitor, but a patriot when he revealed the lies the Pentagon had concealed since 1946 after WWTWO about Indochina and the Vietnam war. He fielded the “cables” coming into the deputy Defense Sec while the Tonkin incident was going on. Twelve hours he stood there.
Prior he was a marine officer, risen to battalion op officer, reaponsible for planning the eventual operations from their ship off the shores of North Africa. He briefed Kennedy on his own first tour as a Pentagoner in ’52. He returned attached to a “hearts and minds” program later and spent paddy time with our boys with a CIA weapon in his arms. Something nobody else did, just to be sure of what was what. He came home when he caught jaundice. Read more in his book “Secrets”.
Pertinent citation from Chomsky’s address to a conference in 2008 celebrating the 20th anniversary of the first book edition.
“In 2008, Chomsky replied to questions concerning the ways internet blogs and self-generated news reportage conform to and differ from the propaganda model. He also explained how access to information is not enough, because a framework of understanding is required.[10]“
Juris,
You asked, roughly, hoe do we know who is telling the truth. There are fact checkers, os which you are familiar.
You can also find those who fully support one line and compare what they sey with the other side statements of facgt.
Then try to decide who you believe most.s
Here’s one from my side, which offers here a list of 24 “myths” that Ryan said in his 40 minutes of the debate with Biden. With rebuttals of course.
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/10/12/1002021/at-the-vice-presidential-debate-ryan-told-24-myths-in-40-minutes/
Just to end with some humor, do all this “program” and you cna launch yourself locally as a pundit. Extra cash, and maybe national fame in the offing.