Prominent Orthodox Counselor Convicted Of Sexual Abuse Of 12-Year-Old Girl — Three Orthodox Men Charged With Harassing Victim In Court

gavel2We have previously discussed the often hostile treatment of victims of sexual abuse in some Orthodox Jewish communities. On Monday, one such case reached verdict with the conviction of Nechemya Weberman, a religious counselor in Brooklyn’s ultra-orthodox Jewish community. Weberman was convicted of 59 counts for the sustained sexual abuse of a girl who was sent to him after she began to question her faith and dress immodestly. The case highlighted the harsh treatment of those who reveal such crimes in the Orthodox community. During the trial, three men were charged with criminal contempt for snapping images of the victim on the witness stand with cellphone cameras and then posting them online. Previously, Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes charged four men with trying to bribe the accuser to drop the charges. The case also raised troubling questions of special treatment given to the accused in this politically powerful community by Hynes in withholding their names from the public.


Weberman is a member of the large Orthodox community in Brooklyn. The 59 counts include sustained sex abuse of a child, endangering the welfare of a child and other counts. The abuse started when the girl was just 12 and continued until she was 15. Her parents were concerned that she was expressing interest in boys and dressing immodestly. She was also questioning their rigid faith practices of the Satmar Hasidic sect. He response, according to the jury, was sexually abusing her. The family paid him $12,800 in counseling fees.

Weberman, 54, is looking at a possible 25 years in prison.

Defense attorney Stacey Richman insisted that the girl was just vengeful and made up the entire story.

What is most disturbing are accounts from the girl and her family of how they were shunned and mistreated by the community for accusing a prominent Orthodox person. The father lost his business and the girl’s nieces were kicked out of their school.

The recent charges against the men show not just the continued hostility toward victims but the disregard of legal authority over the actions of some members of this community. The grotesque distortion of moral and ethical principles is shocking but hardly unique in today’s world of religious extremism. Rather than view the accused as a threat to this religious sect, it was the victim and her family that were blindly persecuted and harassed. The continued contempt shown by these individuals only magnifies the earlier concerns over the troubling special treatment shown by Hynes. There is clearly an absence of responsibility in parts of this community for such crimes. That leaves it to the government to reinforce the values clearly missing among these self-described moral men.

Source: NBC

77 thoughts on “Prominent Orthodox Counselor Convicted Of Sexual Abuse Of 12-Year-Old Girl — Three Orthodox Men Charged With Harassing Victim In Court

  1. And this is different from the Taliban or the Islamic suppression of women how? Oh, I guess the girl hasn’t been killed. Yet.

  2. Can we have some photos of the men who photographed the witness child while she was in court. It would be quite orthodox to ridicule these schmucks worldwide. As for the perp, he needs some time in Attica. The in court photo op dickheads need to be beaten within in inch of their toes.

  3. “And this is different from the Taliban or the Islamic suppression of women how? Oh, I guess the girl hasn’t been killed. Yet.”

    DonS,

    As a Jew let me respond to you by saying that your implication that this is no different than Fundamentalist Islamic suppression of women is totally correct. There is no difference. The Satmar Jewish community is much more a cult, than a representative of Judaism. It must be recognized as a cult and condemned as a cult, by Jews as well as no-Jews. They are to the community of Judaism, what the “God Hates Fags” Church is to Christianity. As with most cults it seems there is not only the degradation of females, but also the abuse of females. Also, as with most cults, the members stick together against what they perceive as the “outside”. They are so much a cult that they have attacked other groups in the Hassidic movement of Judaism, at one point threatening the life of “The Rebbe” of the Lubavitcher Hasidim.

    As to Brooklyn D.A. Hynes treating them with “kid gloves”, so to speak, the answer is both easy and telling. They vote as a block under instructions from their religious leaders. Block voting in politics is quite effective, if little achieved. This type of voting gives them more power than their numbers deserve. As a Jew I don’t hesitate to condemn this cult behavior, especially since this is a group that would only tenuously recognize my own Jewishness and certainly wouldn’t invite me into their Synagogues.

    It is necessary when discussing this group to point out their wide divergence from any sort of normative Judaism, Orthodox Judaism and even from the Hasidic movements. It is also necessary to condemn this sort of behavior and the implications it has for women within its aegis.

  4. DonS
    1, December 12, 2012 at 9:28 am
    ….. Oh, I guess the girl hasn’t been killed. Yet.
    ———————————
    well, according to the most strict interpretation of the Jewish fundamentals, she has been killed. If the abuse included the loss of her virginity she is no longer ‘alive’ to the highest level of life within the sect. Even if still a virgin, her reputation has clearly been murdered and the damage likely done. By taking so much $$$$ from the family under pretense, they have been murdered because they have lost resource with no return, the $$$ no longer available….it is crime most foul and forbidden…

  5. I guess it goes to show

    that Sociopaths come in all Shapes & Flavors, hiding in positions of Authority & dressing Pretty.

  6. MikeS

    Thanks for the clear explanation on this cult. Whats sad to me is that we can recognize this horror and the abuses of several Christian denominations as the acts of a fringe and well outside the moral and ethical teachings of those faiths but are totally unwilling to accept that the same can be said for the acts of Islamic radicals. All religions have their fringe whack jobs and those forces wax and wane over time.

    Even as a Pastifarian I am saddened that people use religion as an excuse for their demented behavior I would think religious people would be even more offended

  7. I too was born to Jewish parents, but, I long ago realized the vacancies & discrepancies of religion and I became an Atheist more than 30 years ago. My solution for these Orthodox ”CAVE MEN” would be this….. Tie their heads to their Genitals, using their long sideburns, and beards, and force them to walk around like that for 6 months………..

  8. Thanks, Mike S.

    For years and years I, a Jew, have been trying to effectively attack Hynes and his office-full of thugs for their protection of abusers in Brooklyn, whether Orthodox Jews or others. He is a disgrace to his office and he uses all imaginable — and some unimaginable — tactics to brutalize victims who try to demand justice. Look at his work at:

    http://mothers-of-valor.org/

    State Senator (and later Governor of NY) David Paterson tried to help Dr. Amy Neustein and her daughter back in the early 90s — nobody could get past Hynes’ evil wall of mafia-style protection for abusers. SHAME SHAME SHAME. And now that this scandal has made the shame public, it reflects badly on ALL JEWS when the majority of us were trying valiantly to straighten out this horrific criminal conspiracy.

    Update on the Neustein case: The daughter apparently continued to reject and insult her mother in the most disrespectful way, but her mother still loves and defends her and points out that, earlier in her life, when she was not 100% in the mental/emotional control of the abusive elements of the coercive community, she was a sweet, kind, smart and empathic person. She gives examples of lovely acts this young woman did as a small child.

    To quote W. H. Auden: “Those to whom evil is done will do evil in return.”

  9. >”Defense attorney Stacey Richman insisted that the girl was just vengeful and made up the entire story.

    Do we know with certainity that what Stacy Richman said is NOT true?

  10. So he’s been convicted. Cue the inevitable claims of “anti-semitism”.

    DHMCarver –
    “The Catholic priesthood, the Boy Scouts, Penn State, the ultra-Orthodox in NYC — finally, the walls of silence are cracking.”

    Actually, that’s not the right imagery. I’d say more and more rocks are being turned over.

    The scumbags are there whether we’ve seen them or not. They’re just being exposed more.

  11. Hey, looks like old home week for disaffected Jews. Count me in. Makes you wonder who this big Jewish voting/financing bloc is that the pols keep genuflecting to (to seriously mix an allusion). Nevermind, I know. AIPAC is a pro at manipulating the “I control and speak for the Jews” racket.

  12. The legal system is evil. The legal system acts like the people against Jesus. Sex happens. Whoever does good or bad will be judged equally by God, and God alone. Disassemble the legal system that condemns to save your soul.

  13. We need to see the photos of the jerkoffs who took the photos of the witness. Put them on buttbook and ridicule them. Put them on Wanted posters in NYC.

  14. People need to stop, and look at the legal system. They have to analyze it seeing whether they see Jesus in it or whether they see the evil scribes ,and Pharisees in it. I say the religious scribes,and pharisees are in it. People have to answer fort what they do or do not do.

  15. People need to stop, and look at the legal system. They have to analyze it seeing whether they see Jesus in it or whether they see the evil scribes ,and Pharisees in it. I say the religious scribes,and pharisees are in it. People have to answer for what they do or do not do.

  16. “I say the religious scribes,and pharisees are in it.”

    Jonathan Hughes,

    It’s too bad you don’t understand the religion you profess to believe in, or its history. Jesus was a Pharisee to the day he died and his teachings were the teachings of the Pharisees. Your Gospels got re-edited at the Council of Nicaea almost three centuries after his death to make them more friendly to the Romans and to their Mithraic Caesar Constantine. Since the Pharisees led the revolts against Roman occupation they needed to be made out to be opponents to Jesus, rather than his allies.

  17. Mike Spindell Religion was apposed to him when God walked with us, and is against people that have him in spirit now. Jesus minded his own business, but those that do not will be burned by his glory.

    I see religion clearly with all of their lies. I see Jesus clearly wherever he is. I unfortunately do not see Jesus in you at this time. Jesus is not a pharisee. He said the self righteous planing the death or Jesus people would not be in the kingdom of God. One pharisee repented, Nicodemus. Jes8us is heaven in whoever.
    Please teach.
    Religions lie about what is in the KJV not telling the truth about key words turning Gods word in to a lie. Naughty in the KJV is being froward connected to abominable which to God is also being froward, and perverted too. Pro 4 24,Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
    KJV, Proverbs 3, 32For the froward is abomination to the LORD,
    Pro 12; 22Lying lips are abomination,
    Proverbs 6:12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
    Proverbs 17: 4,A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
    Jeremiah 24,2,One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are firt ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

    Religions are those words being naughty, perverted abominable, and froward. Jesus is none of those words.

  18. “The character of Jesus. Don’t you know the character of Jesus when you see him? He can be in spirit in anyone.”

    “I see Jesus clearly wherever he is. I unfortunately do not see Jesus in you at this time.”

    Jonathan Hughes,

    Far be it from me to criticize your religious views, as you have deigned to criticize the views of others, including myself. What I will say is that you exhibit the “deadly sin” of pride in that you think you can understand the thinking of a higher being and make pronouncements as to what that being wishes. You appear to take your beliefs from the KJV, but surely you know that bible is only one of many and one whose translations have been proven to be faulty. As to:

    “Jesus is not a pharisee”.

    You’re simply wrong historically and in terms of your understanding of what the Pharisees taught and believed. There are more historical records of what the Pharisees believed, than there are of Jesus actual existence. There are so far more records of Pharisee teaching than there are contemporary records of Jesus life, that there simply is no basis for comparison. Almost all of Jesus preachings, such as the “Golden rule” are elements of Pharisee philosophy.

    However, it really isn’t my intention to denigrate your religious beliefs, or even to attempt to shake your faith, which would be impossible. What I wish is merely to inform you that as dear as your beliefs are, so are mine. Where I chastise you is in the implication of your writing here that would have our governmental system ruled by your beliefs. You don’t get to impose your beliefs on me, nor should I try to impose my beliefs on you. The world we live in would be a far better place if people would follow that line of thought, in addition to living by the “Golden Rule”.

  19. MY views are directly from Christ that is not part of reliugon. How can religious people that wanted Jesus or lkazerus dead be a part of it? I teach the truth . Where lies have been taught.
    Search the scriptures. Jesus is in them. Jesus is in people that are like he is. I teach the golden rule. Had religions done the same would world history have been the way it was?
    The pharisees did not keep what was in their own book even as people do not keep what is in the KJV. It is either not taught, twisted or perverted in every which way or verses quoted saying nothing or verses out of context to make God look bad.
    Had people be like Jesus who did not war there would be no war = terrorism. Rule by the beliefs God has set fort through me will save .. your soul regardless of what an idiot does to your body.
    You have a lot of studying to do so you can get the right inturpritaton of the KJV. Religions butcher the KJV making it into a weapon. jails, and military, and oppressive laws against people like Pedo’s, zoosexuals naked people etc,etc.are made calling it good. That is religious. Kill or want to kill or arrest and be religious. Don’t whatever name you go by ,and you will be a Christian. Jesus gave life, and other good things that people cannot touch.
    13 different religious lies. Religion is militarily minded, connected to the legal system because religious people were behind the arresting and killing of Jesus.

    I believe Jesus who is the word made flesh. People like to use the bible KJV or other translation to hurt people. That is a misusing of the bible. People that misuse the Bible end up acting like the enemy of Jesus rather than Jesus. Pharisaical lies have been feed to people for centuries.

    1, Religions lie about hell giving the illusion that God is a god of war. Now you know why there are military armies, police, legal system, Sharia law., etc.
    Jesus never threw a stone,but because the truth was not taught worse than stones were thrown saying God was on their side with laws against whoever about whatever.
    Gods light seen to the human that kills or hates not being like Jesus sees God glory as if it was fire = hell. KJV 1 John 1;5, God is light. Heb; 12:29; a consuming fire. James 1:17, Father of lights, Hell is the glorified face of God Moses could not look at or become ashes. That light makes the earth to have no more sea making elements melt, and consumes the wicked around the city of God rev, 20. Hell is not a place. No lost no lake of fire. Gods light is good to those that love to do good.

    2, Religion lies about these words being public nudity or a various kinds of sexual activity.
    Defiled, abominable, perverted, and deviant art not what religions have taught over the centuries Fetishes, Yiffing, zoosexual sex are not abominable, defiled or perverted or deviant either. People perverted the words,10 things that are abominable. 15 verses about perverse. 4 about defile., zero about any sex. Pro: 17:23, Pro:, 15 4, Job 6 – 30, Pro:, 12 -8, Isa:”, 30 -12, 1 Tim:’, 6 -5, Deut: 16 -19, Job 8 -3, Jer: 23 -36, Gal: 1 -7, Ecc:, 5 -8, Micah, 3 -9, Pro: 19 1, Pro: 4 24, Pro: 3, 32, Pro: 12; 22, Pro: 20 :10, Pro: 6;16, Heb: 12:15: Isa: 59 -3, Mat: 15 – 11, Mark, 7 – 15,

    3, religions lie saying fornication is an active sexual sin.
    Fornication is a sin against the body, the other sin is outside of the body. War most certainly sins against ones own body, and the bodies outside of your body. Respect not the wife of another, and war is a thing that can result. Jesus avoided war by not wanting that which was not his.

    4, Religions lie about what sodomy really is.
    Oppressive Sodomites made sex other than heterosexual sex sodomy. Read Isaiah 1: 17, KJV.Gays, and zoosexuals oppress no one.
    Sodomite speaking in verse below.
    KJV,Genesis 19:. 9And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them.:Sodomite speaking is the one who came in to sojourn speaking in the third person wanting to judge condemn the two people in lots house. Lot does not let them. The Sodomite gets angry, and threatens lot. The angel pulls lot back into the house.
    Sodomy according to scripture is not sex of any kind. .Sodomites are judges condemners like sodomites Government supports sodomistic I will do worse to whosoever military.

    Luke 6:37;King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    5, Religions encourage condemning being anti Christ.
    Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

    This is obviously not taught. Existing condemning legal system proves that.

    6, Religion thinks they are crafty connecting their name to the name of Jesus seeking his death. Religion has many names doing one of two things killing or arresting. You figure out who does that. That is religion that is against Jesus.
    Mark 14:1-9 KJV the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. John 12;10 the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
    Since religion wanted worse to happen to Jesus killing him anyone or any institution wanting death or jailing for anyone would also be religion = people that are pre flood in behavior, and sodomistic in behavior. This means church, and state in spirit are not separate. People have been lied to for a long long time.

    7, Religion lies saying we are not a beast -animal. We are an animal needing to be like Christ is with Jesus in us to be like he is.
    God wants to manifest that fact to leave no doubt, and says there is no preeminence between us, and a beast KJV, Ecc: 3: 18 -20.,
    People are an animals. Do you want me to count the ways? Physiologically, biologically, Chemically, scientifically, microscopically piss, and shit like them sleep like them are born and die like them having territorial instincts,and the fight or flight response too. To think you are not an animal is in your head. To think not would need a psychologist to give you treatments to show you the truth.

    8, religious people are against the furry and natural genitalia wanting to seek vain glory trying to make the furry or clothing optional human out to be less than they are. Phil: 2: 3. call one part bad call the entire body or furry suit bad because the part called bad-is part of the whole. No schism in the body,1 Cor: 12:25.

    9, Religions have the KJV but do lot teach us the truth therein. Here again is evidence of the devil in people hiding truth, perverting words, taking verses out of context while having KJV in their blood soaked hands. 8 places in KJV says the heart figuratively is to be circumcised not the penis tip at all. Deuteronomy 30:6, Deuteronomy 10:16 ;Jeremiah 4:4 , Jeremiah 9:26; Colossians 2:11-15;Acts 7:51;Leviticus 26:41;Romans 2:29, circumcision is a blood sacrifice. nothing more nothing less.

    10, This country singing God a bless America are blaspheming Gods name to have a legal system, military, police, and calling drugs which are what people call medicine good. What is good care, better yet preventive care U,C,S , Chiropractic practitioners on upcspine or upper cervical heath centers. ”

    11, religions lie about what Satan looks like too. Had Satan show himself as depicted all would know who he is and not give him the time of day ignoring him avoiding him shirking him. Looking narrowly upon him. Satan is a deceiver. Satan is Lucifer a bright angel as bright as God himself in glory. but void of all of the meek, and lowly characteristics of Jesus. Those that do not know Jesus would be awe struck by such a being eagerly doing whatever the being asked them to do which would end in devastating destruction. People follow him doing evil to people. They will get an equal reward.

    Naughty is not we have been taught by religious people.
    12, Proverbs 6:12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
    Jeremiah 24,2,One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are firt ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.
    The people against the furry, gay, zoo, and Pedo are the people that are naughty.
    This makes the catholic church to be what the KJV calls naughty as the word really means. The people that follow Sharia law feel the same way against the gay too.

    13, The wrath of man is relied on to saying they protect, but the wrath of man is jailing, and warring, and killing in whatever way they can, and oppressing. That makes what people do thinking it protects their body as being naughty. Religion screwed up all of the truths in the KJV. We have God depicted in the media as being an old man with a beard like Santa claws. Religions do not speak up saying don’t that that is wrong. Why am I having to do that? Jesus is God being like a humble child. .
    James:1 20 – 21, for the wrath of man worketh not the rightiouness of God. Whearfor lay apart all filthyness ,and superfluidy of naugtyness, and recieave with meekness the ingraffted word which is able to save your souls.

  20. MY views are directly from Christ that is not part of religion. How can religious people that wanted Jesus or Lazarus dead be a part of it? I teach the truth . Where lies have been taught.
    Search the scriptures. Jesus is in them. Jesus is in people that are like he is. I teach the golden rule. Had religions done the same would world history have been the way it was?
    The pharisees did not keep what was in their own book even as people do not keep what is in the KJV. It is either not taught, twisted or perverted in every which way or verses quoted saying nothing or verses out of context to make God look bad.
    Had people be like Jesus who did not war there would be no war = terrorism. Rule by the beliefs God has set fort through me will save .. your soul regardless of what an idiot does to your body.
    You have a lot of studying to do so you can get the right interpretation of the KJV. Religions butcher the KJV making it into a weapon. jails, and military, and oppressive laws against people like Pedo’s, zoosexuals naked people etc, etc. are made calling it good. That is religious. Kill or want to kill or arrest and be religious. Don’t whatever name you go by ,and you will be a Christian. Jesus gave life, and other good things that people cannot touch.
    13 different religious lies. Religion is militarily minded, connected to the legal system because religious people were behind the arresting and killing of Jesus.
    I believe Jesus who is the word made flesh. People like to use the bible KJV or other translation to hurt people. That is a misusing of the bible. People that misuse the Bible end up acting like the enemy of Jesus rather than Jesus. Pharisaical lies have been feed to people for centuries.
    1, Religions lie about hell giving the illusion that God is a god of war. Now you know why there are military armies, police, legal system, Sharia law., etc.
    Jesus never threw a stone,but because the truth was not taught worse than stones were thrown saying God was on their side with laws against whoever about whatever.
    Gods light seen to the human that kills or hates not being like Jesus sees God glory as if it was fire = hell. KJV 1 John 1;5, God is light. Heb; 12:29; a consuming fire. James 1:17, Father of lights, Hell is the glorified face of God Moses could not look at or become ashes. That light makes the earth to have no more sea making elements melt, and consumes the wicked around the city of God rev, 20. Hell is not a place. No lost no lake of fire. Gods light is good to those that love to do good.
    2, Religion lies about these words being public nudity or a various kinds of sexual activity.
    Defiled, abominable, perverted, and deviant art not what religions have taught over the centuries Fetishes, Yiffing, zoosexual sex are not abominable, defiled or perverted or deviant either. People perverted the words,10 things that are abominable. 15 verses about perverse. 4 about defile., zero about any sex. Pro: 17:23, Pro:, 15 4, Job 6 – 30, Pro:, 12 -8, Isa:”, 30 -12, 1 Tim:’, 6 -5, Deut: 16 -19, Job 8 -3, Jer: 23 -36, Gal: 1 -7, Ecc:, 5 -8, Micah, 3 -9, Pro: 19 1, Pro: 4 24, Pro: 3, 32, Pro: 12; 22, Pro: 20 :10, Pro: 6;16, Heb: 12:15: Isa: 59 -3, Mat: 15 – 11, Mark, 7 – 15,
    3, religions lie saying fornication is an active sexual sin.
    Fornication is a sin against the body, the other sin is outside of the body. War most certainly sins against ones own body, and the bodies outside of your body. Respect not the wife of another, and war is a thing that can result. Jesus avoided war by not wanting that which was not his.
    4, Religions lie about what sodomy really is.
    Oppressive Sodomites made sex other than heterosexual sex sodomy. Read Isaiah 1: 17, KJV.Gays, and zoosexuals oppress no one.
    Sodomite speaking in verse below.
    KJV,Genesis 19:. 9And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them.:Sodomite speaking is the one who came in to sojourn speaking in the third person wanting to judge condemn the two people in lots house. Lot does not let them. The Sodomite gets angry, and threatens lot. The angel pulls lot back into the house.
    Sodomy according to scripture is not sex of any kind. .Sodomites are judges condemners like sodomites Government supports sodomistic I will do worse to whosoever military.
    Luke 6:37;King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    5, Religions encourage condemning being anti Christ.
    Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
    This is obviously not taught. Existing condemning legal system proves that.
    6, Religion thinks they are crafty connecting their name to the name of Jesus seeking his death. Religion has many names doing one of two things killing or arresting. You figure out who does that. That is religion that is against Jesus.
    Mark 14:1-9 KJV the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. John 12;10 the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
    Since religion wanted worse to happen to Jesus killing him anyone or any institution wanting death or jailing for anyone would also be religion = people that are pre flood in behavior, and sodomistic in behavior. This means church, and state in spirit are not separate. People have been lied to for a long long time.
    7, Religion lies saying we are not a beast -animal. We are an animal needing to be like Christ is with Jesus in us to be like he is.
    God wants to manifest that fact to leave no doubt, and says there is no preeminence between us, and a beast KJV, Ecc: 3: 18 -20.,
    People are an animals. Do you want me to count the ways? Physiologically, biologically, Chemically, scientifically, microscopically piss, and shit like them sleep like them are born and die like them having territorial instincts,and the fight or flight response too. To think you are not an animal is in your head. To think not would need a psychologist to give you treatments to show you the truth.
    8, religious people are against the furry and natural genitalia wanting to seek vain glory trying to make the furry or clothing optional human out to be less than they are. Phil: 2: 3. call one part bad call the entire body or furry suit bad because the part called bad-is part of the whole. No schism in the body,1 Cor: 12:25.
    9, Religions have the KJV but do lot teach us the truth therein. Here again is evidence of the devil in people hiding truth, perverting words, taking verses out of context while having KJV in their blood soaked hands. 8 places in KJV says the heart figuratively is to be circumcised not the penis tip at all. Deuteronomy 30:6, Deuteronomy 10:16 ;Jeremiah 4:4 , Jeremiah 9:26; Colossians 2:11-15;Acts 7:51;Leviticus 26:41;Romans 2:29, circumcision is a blood sacrifice. nothing more nothing less.
    10, This country singing God a bless America are blaspheming Gods name to have a legal system, military, police, and calling drugs which are what people call medicine good. What is good care, better yet preventive care U,C,S , Chiropractic practitioners on upcspine or upper cervical heath centers. ”
    11, religions lie about what Satan looks like too. Had Satan show himself as depicted all would know who he is and not give him the time of day ignoring him avoiding him shirking him. Looking narrowly upon him. Satan is a deceiver. Satan is Lucifer a bright angel as bright as God himself in glory. but void of all of the meek, and lowly characteristics of Jesus. Those that do not know Jesus would be awe struck by such a being eagerly doing whatever the being asked them to do which would end in devastating destruction. People follow him doing evil to people. They will get an equal reward.
    Naughty is not we have been taught by religious people.
    12, Proverbs 6:12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
    Jeremiah 24,2,One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are firt ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.
    The people against the furry, gay, zoo, and Pedo are the people that are naughty.
    This makes the catholic church to be what the KJV calls naughty as the word really means. The people that follow Sharia law feel the same way against the gay too.
    13, The wrath of man is relied on to saying they protect, but the wrath of man is jailing, and warring, and killing in whatever way they can, and oppressing. That makes what people do thinking it protects their body as being naughty. Religion screwed up all of the truths in the KJV. We have God depicted in the media as being an old man with a beard like Santa claws. Religions do not speak up saying don’t that that is wrong. Why am I having to do that? Jesus is God being like a humble child. .
    James:1 20 – 21, for the wrath of man worketh not the rightiouness of God. Whearfor lay apart all filthyness ,and superfluidy of naugtyness, and recieave with meekness the ingraffted word which is able to save your souls.

  21. Mike S., I would advise against engaging with Jonathan Hughes. He and “Living God” showed up on the blog about the same time (given the content of their posts and their similar style, I often wonder if they are not the same person), and either are proselytizers or trolls. The remind me of the race-baiters who responded to Prof. Turley’s posts regarding the attack by black youths on the drunk white guy in Baltimore from a while back. I wonder if they know they are in the wrong place, internet-wise?

    (Not to say that I agree with you that Jesus was a Pharisee! But such theological minutiae are completely unrelated to this thread.)

  22. DHMCarver legal system is pharisaical. Both do the same things condemning people. Militarily does the same thing condemning people to death.. How can Jesus be in the legal sytem or the military army? Jesus is not a pharisee. A pharisee is like a reed shaming in the wind to Jesus. Acting like a lot doing nothing.

  23. DHMCarver legal system is pharisaical. Both do the same things condemning people. Militarily does the same thing condemning people to death.. How can Jesus be in the legal sytem or the military army? Jesus is not a pharisee. A pharisee is like a reed shaking in the wind to Jesus. Acting like a lot doing nothing.

  24. “MY views are directly from Christ that is not part of reliugon”

    Jonathan,

    Given that you claim direct contact with your God Jesus and in light of sage advice from DMHCarver, I bid you good fortune and continued blessings.

  25. Whatever a person does will get a reward that is equal. That reward should not be given by people that are on essentially death row. That should be enough to have people not do to whoever what they would not want done to them. A photo for pity sakes is evil to the people against a person having sex. If a photo is bad to them everything sexual a person does will be bad with the name Pedo attached.

  26. Responding to Jonathan Hughes, December 13, 2012

    Dear Jonathan, you seem to be confused about certain realities in the Bible, and many are…thus they justify the lives they continue to lead: I note this sentence of yours;

    “Religions lie about hell giving the illusion that God is a god of war.”

    Many, many people, including devout Catholics who continuously refuse to obey the Commandments (including 1, and 2)…people who want to have their cake and eat it too; people who claim to believe in God and Jesus yet honors another man as God’s representative on earth (when Jesus is that man…MOT A POPE)!
    People who refuse to come to God, to be “born again,” who refuse to read the scriptures for themselves, but instead ingratiate themselves with ceremony and ‘Paganists’ doctrines; People who believe that it is better to go to a “saint”, or Mary, or a Priest (earthly man) to confess their sins, instead of confessing them to the lamb of God (Jesus Christ who shed his blood on the cross)…these people for all these reasons and more, because they do not fear God, they do not care NOW…will see the wrath of God on Judgment day!
    O! Many of these liberals and conservative people (think john Roberts and his continual immoralities at the nation’s highest Court)…these people actually believe themselves to be God… or worship other gods. YouTube is replete with them trying to justify why a loving God would not send them to hell, and that hell is for a short time, until “their purgatory is met.”
    The logic escapes these excusers for there are as blind as a bat! They fail to see the logic, that God witnessed the persecution, the agony, the crucifixion and torture of his begotten son. They fail to read the scriptures of truth in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelations! See below a sample!
    Romans 2: 5

    But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

    Revelation 14:8-12
    King James Version (KJV)
    8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    God solemnly warns Christians that, in the end time, Christians will not put up with sound doctrine (the truth) and will gather around them teachers to tickle their ears and turn away from the truth and turn to false teaching (2 Tim. 4:1-4). Because of the widespread apostasy of true Christians in the end time, God will allow Satan to give all his power to the Antichrist and overcome them; they will compromise and take the Mark, sealing their destiny to be confined to the eternal Lake of Fire (Dan. 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 13:2, 7).
    http://www.lastdaysministry.com/ultimate.htm
    Jonathan the entire Bible is replete with alternatives for those who refuse to accept Christ: He certainly did not come to die in vain. Perhaps it is a delusion (sin of Satan) that inhibits certain people from keeping the Commandments.
    Think of it this way, why would a father Sacrifice his son, to go through the torturous rigors of the crucifixion if it was meaningless? Get it?
    God is not a God of war in the sense that he made the stars, little babies, kittens/cats/dogs, and puppies: He made humans! We see his handy-works just strolling along the beach…in the forest and in the wilderness: This same God Jonathan has given us a choice and if you fail to heed because of your delusions of convenience (living a life not befitting of Christ, but hoping to have eternal life) then on that day of judgment when your name Jonathan is not written who would you blame?
    Thessalonians 2: 11
    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    This verse of scripture is an enigma to most Christians. They cannot believe that God would send a lie to deceive most of His own called out followers. But that is the truth. These are the plain words of scripture.
    Many Christians delude themselves that this is speaking of the lost world and not the church, the called out of God. But this cannot be the case, because this statement is in the context of widespread apostasy:
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
    For you Jonathan:
    Rev 1:3
    Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
    Do not heed to the convenience of lies, read the Bible slowly, ask God for grace and wisdom. The truth is right there. Yes! He will be a God of war, for those who deny him; those who seek other gods and those who keepeth not, his commandments!

  27. “People who refuse to come to God, to be “born again,”

    Ms. Campbell,

    I refuse to come to “your” God and am not interested in being “reborn”, yet I assure you I have a better chance of getting to heaven, if it indeed exists, than you do. The reason is simple, not only have I lived my life by what you call the “Golden Rule”, but I have not committed your blasphemy of believing that you and yours alone understand the thinking of the Creator of this entire Universe. A being such as the Creator is so far above us humans, that it is impossible to understand its intentions. However, your damnation will come because of your making hateful statements such as this:

    “Yes! He will be a God of war, for those who deny him”

    Perhaps you need to re-read the Gospels which talk of Jesus preachings and abjure “Revelations” which is false doctrine, written well after Jesus’ death, by someone who didn’t know him. You need to repent your own sins of pride and malice towards those who don’t share your beliefs.

  28. Dear Mr. Spindle:
    Good works alone CANNOT GAIN YOU AN ENTRANCE TO HEAVEN!

    You can not work your way into heaven, or get there by “Being Good.”
    According to the Bible, there are people who live what we would consider morally good lives that go to hell Every Day!
    This is because they relied on their church, or their own actions to save them. Only Christ can save.
    John 14:6 KJV
    “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”

    http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/salvation.html

    . Because Good Works Cannot Change What You Are
    We all sin because we all are sinners, as the Bible tells us in Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” It is for this reason we all need a new nature – which God gives the believer at the moment of salvation.
    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).
    “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature” (Galatians 6:15). Being Jewish or non-Jewish will never save anyone by itself – we all need a Savior.
    4. Because God Will Not Accept Good Works
    God is a perfect Judge and will never corrupt justice. If He let unrepentant sinners go unpunished for their sins – then he is not just. It is for this reason that good works will never save anyone. He only wants us to believe on His Son and receive the complete salvation He offers.
    “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses” (good works) “are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isaiah 64:6).
    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
    5. Because Good Works Will Not Bring Honor to God
    People who do good works often want to be recognized for them. God only wants us to recognize what He did for us by sending His Son to die for us – because He loved us and could not save ourselves.
    “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” (Romans 3:27,28).
    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8,9).
    http://making-bible-truth-plain.org/blog/?p=64

    Dear Mr. Spindle:
    I can go on with quotation after quotation of the word of God! The facts are dear Mike:

    Revelation 1
    New International Version (NIV)
    Prologue
    1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
    Greetings and Doxology
    4 John,
    To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
    Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
    To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
    7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[b]
    and “every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[c]
    So shall it be! Amen.
    I am not writing as part of a COMPETITION! YOU CAN READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES, YOUR REJECTION IS ON YOUR HEADS!

  29. “Good works alone CANNOT GAIN YOU AN ENTRANCE TO HEAVEN!:

    Ms. Campbell,

    Yes they can and why so angry? You do know that the use of Caps is the expression of anger, don’t you?

    “I am not writing as part of a COMPETITION! YOU CAN READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES, YOUR REJECTION IS ON YOUR HEADS!”

    Again with the anger and with the use of of Revelations, which is the least tenable piece included in the Christian Canon. I leave you to your beliefs and I sincerely wish they give you comfort. However, I don’t like people who proselytize others. I’ve made my own conclusions about the Creator for 68 years and I find someone threatening me with eternal damnation annoying. I’ve been recently on my death bed and you can be damned sure I was aware that soon I might die, I made my own peace with it and its implications. your need to convince others of your belief is estimable, but perhaps it is you doing this to bolster your own shaky conviction. I’ve known more than a few pious people in my time and the common thread was that they did good works and didn’t try to impose their strongly held beliefs on others.

  30. Mike Spindell There are works that will get whoever eternal life. There are works that will get whoever eternal death. The works of the religious people that were against Jesus get eternal death. Can yoiu tell me what their works are?

  31. Dear Mr. Spindle:
    I greet you as a Christian: Please do not assume that I am angry because of the CAPS. I did that for emphasis…in-fact; this is a rare time that I disagree with you; and that’s healthy…a little disagreement now and then
    You even said it:
    … “You do know that the use of Caps is the expression of anger, don’t you”?
    So if I do not know this, then how can I be angry with you, how can you claim to understand my predisposition at the time? 
    Now let me attend to a quote of yours…

    Please stay focus and address my scriptural evidence that clearly elucidate the facts…that
    “Good works alone CANNOT GAIN YOU AN ENTRANCE TO HEAVEN!
    Having said this, you can now deduct that I was not angry but merely trying to articulate emphasis…there is no highlight option…would you agree?
    Instead of saying to me “I don’t like people who proselytize others.” You should spend some time refuting my arguments made via Biblical documentation (of which there are ample)!
    I never claimed to be pious I only, only used the Biblical evidence via my documenting …lets not make this personal. I know that you routinely make consistent and valid points via facts and not emotion. Let’s return to that! 
    PS it is not a matter of my strongly held beliefs, it is a matter of what I quoted from the scriptures, my friend!
    And I would love for you to argue me via facts so that i can learn too!

  32. Elizabeth and Jonathan, PLEASE go away! (all caps here for emphasis, not anger.) This is a legal issues blog, not one for Christians to argue about angels dancing on the head of pins. There are plenty of other blogs where you all can take such conversations. Please go there.

    Thanks.

  33. Ms. Campbell,

    I am focused. I don’t consider scripture from any source evidence and certainly it is not in my mind any assurance of the intent of the Creator of the Universe. This includes the Torah, the Gospel’s, Pauls writings, the Apocrypha, Revelation’s, the Koran, The Book of Morman, the varied Holy Hindu literature, or even Dianetics. I reject all scripture as revealed truth, since in my opinion organized religion is more about power and controlling people, then it is about saving souls.

    Even though I was raised a Jew and my religious practice is Jewish, I believe the Torah does not reflect the will of God, but the thoughts of human beings, for good or ill. My experience in life has been such that I ‘m not an atheist, but a Deist. This means that I believe there is a creative force that informs the Universe, but that humanity has not evolved to the point where it can begin to understand the desires of the Creator(s).

    What I know from my experience in life is that I ‘m a person who has mostly treated my fellow human beings in the same way that I would have liked them to treat me. I have also had some personal spiritual experiences that have impacted on me emotionally. I have had prayers mystifyingly answered and my blessings have been numerous.

    You have been proselytizing and I do have a problem with that, but you may not see why. I have no wish to denigrate someone else’s religious beliefs, since life is a scary proposition and for some they need their faith to comfort them. However, when you in your comments state that there will be damnation in the afterlife unless one comes to Jesus, how do I a non-believer in that dispute you without showing you my own evidence that disputes that notion? I don’t want to attack your beliefs if they’re meaningful to you, as you are attacking my beliefs by your words. One cannot discuss religious beliefs without denigrating another’s beliefs and I don’t wish to do that. You don’t seem to have the same restraint.

  34. The desire of the creator is to be like jesus is to not see his glory as hell. Gods desire is exstremly simple. Love whoever as yourself. Since relii0ous people wanted to kill Dejesus Religious is not what you think. Religious people are people that kill thinking they are crafty. Legal system does that Police do that Legal system does that too. Pharmaceutical industry does that with a concoction of toxins that would choke a horse. Aluminum, lead mercury,and Formaldehyde are found in those shots that sicken, permanently debilitate, and kills people. Mark 14:1-9 KJV the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. John 12;10 the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
    How can jesus be connected to religion? Do good like jesus, be a Christian.

    How can I be prioritizing when I have no name to have people to come to not connected to a church no not even to a building of any kind. I never said the word damnation, you did. I said hell is Gods glory to evil. God is both heaven, and hell. God gives to whoever what they give to whoever.Didn’t I make myself clear? Hell is the ultimate of nothing for the soul. That is not suffering. Religions lie. Believe or not believe, but do the good works of him, and you will See Gods light as a friendly thing. Knowing that you do good acnowladge him with your lips. Pray to him in secret so he can reward you openly.

  35. The desire of the creator is to be like jesus is to not see his glory as hell. Gods desire is exstremly simple. Love whoever as yourself. Since religious people wanted to kill jesus religious is not what you think. Religious people are people that kill thinking they are crafty. Legal system does that Police do that Legal system does that too. Pharmaceutical industry does that with a concoction of toxins that would choke a horse. Aluminum, lead mercury, and Formaldehyde are found in those shots that sicken, permanently debilitate, and kills people. Mark 14:1-9 KJV the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. John 12;10 the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
    How can jesus be connected to religion? Do good like jesus, be a Christian.

    How can I be prioritizing when I have no name to have people to come to not connected to a church no not even to a building of any kind. I never said the word damnation, you did. I said hell is Gods glory to evil. God is both heaven, and hell. God gives to whoever what they give to whoever.Didn’t I make myself clear? Hell is the ultimate of nothing for the soul. That is not suffering. Religions lie. Believe or not believe, but do the good works of him, and you will See Gods light as a friendly thing. Knowing that you do good acnowladge him with your lips. Pray to him in secret so he can reward you openly.

  36. Dear Mike:
    “I don’t consider scripture from any source evidence and certainly it is not in my mind any assurance of the intent of the Creator of the Universe. This includes the Torah, the Gospel’s, Pauls writings.”
    Thank you so much Mike, for finally, finally (although a bit long in coming)…thank you for getting to [t]he point, as I noted above from you: Now I know what I am dealing with.

    All the same, I trust that someone out there became curious enough to pick up the Bible. I also started on doing some research in reference to this phrase of yours….

    “Again with the anger and with the use of Revelations, which is the least tenable piece included in the Christian Canon.”

    For one thing if you say that something is the least tenable, you better be able to back that, and since you chose not to do so for whatever reason(s) I am getting ready to reply. Have a great week, and God bless

  37. whoMs. Campbell,
    If you didn’t realize from the beginning that I didn’t see scripture as fact or evidence, then you were more concerned with proselytizing than reading. As far as the inappropriateness of including Revelations in the Christian canon you need to look at the writing style as well as its departure in tone from anything else in the canon. Then too if you were interested in the historical facts known about it from Christian Biblical scholars you might research it.

    Really though now, no rhetorical pretense on your part in your preaching efforts, you are a true believer and so have little cause for curiosity. Now because as I said before I have no interest in trying to undermine anyones faith I’ll let you decide if you are curious. I answered your comments simply because I think those who believe that a merciful God would damn those righteous people who haven’t come to Jesus, are missing the point of what his teachings were about. Judge not, lest you be judged. Have a nice day.

  38. Dear Mr. Spindle, it is interesting that you claim not to believe the Scriptures (Judeo Christian) and yet your mouth is full of nice little quotes referencing them, albeit, out of context, thus “Judge not, lest you be judged.” Lets see a quote from you>below!

    “As far as the inappropriateness of including Revelations in the Christian canon you need to look at the writing style as well as its departure in tone from anything else in the canon.”
    ALSO
    “Again with the anger and with the use of Revelations, which is the least tenable piece included in the Christian Canon.”
    Ok, Ok so it’s clear that you have a problem with Revelations…why? Are you aware of the books of Daniel and Ezekiel in reference to their prophetic nature?
    Clearly the Apostle John’s writing style (though much centuries later) did not, has not departed from Daniel’s or Ezekiel’s, are is [t]he evidence my friend!
    Revelations 1: 13
    “And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.”

    Daniel 10: 5
    “Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:”
    *****************************************************
    Rev1: 14
    14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;”

    Daniel 7:9
    9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
    Revelations 4: 7
    The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle.
    Ezekiel 1: 10
    As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

    *************************************************************
    Revelations 21:3
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Leviticus 26:11-12
    11 I will put my dwelling place[a] among you, and I will not abhor you. 12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.
    ************************************************************
    Revelations 21: 8
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    1st Timothy 1:9-10
    9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    Rev 21:23
    23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[a] for the glory[b] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
    Isaiah 24: 23
    Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
    Dear Mr. Spindle, lets return to your earlier quote, for I cannot cite the entire Bible!
    “As far as the inappropriateness of including Revelations in the Christian canon you need to look at the writing style as well as its departure in tone from anything else in the canon.”

    Clearly the Apostle John was not the only Prophet given a glimpse of what is to come, of visions! Your problem is, is that YOU HATE TRUTH! YOU WANT THE BIBLE TO CONFER YOUR IDEA, NOT THE LORD’S..TUT, TUT!

    ALSO (Your other quote)
    “Again with the anger and with the use of Revelations, which is the least tenable piece included in the Christian Canon.”
    You are the angry one, because of your lack of knowledge, and you believe yourself a God! A mad-CRAZY GOD…that is!

  39. “Dear Mr. Spindle, it is interesting that you claim not to believe the Scriptures (Judeo Christian) and yet your mouth is full of nice little quotes referencing them, albeit, out of context, thus “Judge not, lest you be judged.””

    Ms. Campbell,

    Unlike you I do not accept or deny something without investigating it. Thus I’ve personally read the Torah, various Christian Bibles, the Koran, the lessons of the Buddha and Hindu literature. I’ve also extensively read the major figures in the study of Mythology and in addition much history. That is known as having and open questing mind. While you see that as a problem, I see that as a strength. As far as quoting them, all religions have nuggets of truth to be utilized, it seems though that you are only open to those nuggets that agree with your temperament.

    Have a blessed day.

  40. Dear Mike Spindle:

    “Unlike you I do not accept or deny something without investigating it.”

    Me think you called the kettle Black too many times. First take the mote out of thine own eyes, so that thou canst see!
    Clearly anyone not blind can see my evidence, as cited again and again: you however, “magically” choose to ignore the facts brought up in response to your ignorance, for example, let me say it again…and please do not run from your words I shall come in exactly at your LANGUAGE:

    “…you need to look at the writing style as well as its departure in tone from anything else in the canon.”

    Well, I gave you just that! I cited other’s works, the Biblical books from Leviticus, Timothy, Daniel and Ezekiel, and I could have gone onto Exodus, Esther, Isaiah, Hebrew and more, but common sense and impatience (for the reader) decided that I needed to stop!
    All of these prophets, Apostles have very similar writing styles to the Apostle John. The apostle John did not see visions that the others did not see; the difference in presentation was/is because of their individual style, (and given the fact that they were centuries in differentiation) this lends enormous credibility to [t]he truth, God’s truth!
    I wish you would stop flaming bullets, and aim precisely! Stop generalizing and make your points based upon facts/deduction of logic! THERE IS NOTHING IN THE TONE OR WRITING STYLE OF THE Apostle John that’s different from the others: You like most unbelievers are afraid of the apocalyptic nature of what WILL BE! LET ME GIVE YOU MORE!

    All Unrepentant Sinners Will Go to Hell.
    At the Last Judgment, God will take lost sinners out of Hades, where they have been waiting in torments, and re-unite them with their bodies. They will then be judged, condemned and sent straight into Hell. There will be no exceptions. No unbeliever will somehow sneak into Heaven. Nor will any true Christian be sent to Hell. Of course, no one will want to go there when they see it for what it is. People joke about it now, but not then. They will be filled with total terror as they view it in all its horrors. They will be dragged kicking and screaming by angels to be thrown alive into this fiery furnace. It is worse than being thrown alive into a raging volcano. But all their resistance will be futile, and they will melt like butter before the fury of God’s holy wrath.

    Sinners Suffer in Hell.
    Those in Hell are wide awake and conscious. They wish they could die or sleep, but there is no rest there. There is only pain and torment. They will suffer all the physical pains imaginable. Every nerve-ending in their bodies will be used as conduits of pain. They will thirst, but there is no water, only molten lava. They will suffer spiritually, mentally and emotionally. There is not even the comfort from other people in Hell, for all become enemies of everyone else. They will not be punished by Satan or demons or other people. They will be punished by God Almighty Himself. They will be tormented there (Rev.14:11). This is not sadistic torture or cruelty. It is just and right punishment. The least pains in Hell will far exceed the worst pains back on Earth.

    Sinners Will Be Punished in Hell.
    Hell is the place where God punishes sin and unrepentant sinners. Everyone is a sinner and deserves to go there. Those who go there will have no excuses or appeals. They will know that they are getting exactly what they deserve. Hell is not a penitentiary or reformatory. It is not meant to do them good. It is made to punish them by inflicting intense and eternal pain. It is not Purgatory. It is a place of absolute justice. They will be legally punished for their crimes.

    Sinners Do Not Cease to Exist in Hell.
    There is an erroneous theory that says that Hell is temporary. As soon as someone is thrown in there, he ceases to exist. Eventually Hell itself will cease to exist. That’s what they think and hope. But that is not what the Bible says. They are not annihilated into oblivion. They keep on living and suffering. They will wish they could cease to exist, but divine justice will not allow them to escape their punishment. The Antichrist survived 1000 years in Hell and did not cease to exist (Rev.20:7). Hell is not a kind of Purgatory, in which people suffer only so long and then be annihilated (if they are cleansed or if their sins have been paid for, why not let them out?). They will live forever there.
    http://www.faithbibleonline.net/BasicChristianDoctrine/49.htm

    If you do not come to the realization that you are not a god, and that you came and found this universe, and that the one and true God who made it, just as he allowed his son to give his life on that cross…suffering and tortured, pierced and anguished, YOU TOO MIKE SPPINDLE WILL TAKE THE WRATH OF HIS JUDGMENT ONE DAY!
    Stop toying around with God and open your eyes!

  41. Dear Mr. DHM Carver:
    It only irks because it is about Christ, if it was about sex and violence you would be acclaiming!

    Speaking about Christ and our Lord, is NEVER (unfortunately because Satan has taken hold, but he has limited time) easy for those who choose to ignore…but the day of reckoning will soon come…yea, we are already seeing many signs and wonders across the world!

    Think of that, Mr. DHM Carver!

  42. DHMCarver Can’t stand sound doctrine? Seems like condemn do not condemn is offensive to you. If so God will be offended by you. You accusations have no affect on me. Do you think an accusation can erase truth? if you think so you are mistaken. Telling you that hell is not a place is offends you? I tell you the truth the Gates of heaven are both the gates to heaven, and hell. The wicked will never enter therein. The light of God from those gates will wipe evil from existence. Have no evil have no lake of fire. The devil if he is still in you will dislike what I have spoken

  43. DHMCarver Can’t stand sound doctrine? Seems like condemn do not condemn is offensive to you. If so God will be offended by you. You accusations have no affect on me. Do you think an accusation can erase truth? if you think so you are mistaken. Telling you that hell is not a place is offends you? I tell you the truth the Gates of heaven are both the gates to heaven, and hell. The wicked will never enter therein. The light of God from those gates will wipe evil from existence. Have no evil have no lake of fire. The devil if he is still in you will dislike what I have spoken.

  44. “It only irks because it is about Christ, if it was about sex and violence you would be acclaiming! Speaking about Christ and our Lord, is NEVER (unfortunately because Satan has taken hold, but he has limited time) easy for those who choose to ignore…but the day of reckoning will soon come…yea, we are already seeing many signs and wonders across the world!”

    Ms. Campbell and Mr. Hughes,

    I know that you think you are doing good spreading Your Gospel, but in reality you are insulting other good people who don’t believe in what you believe in by trying to foist your beliefs on them. It is an example not of humility before God but of the sin of pride. People like you, thinking they are doing good have been responsible for most of the wars, torture and untimely deaths in mankind’s history. smug, self satisfied people like you who think they understand life, when they cannot understand their scripture in any way that adds kindness and love towards other human beings. You foolishly think you are showering us with unknown thoughts, but in essence you cursing at us by threatening those who don’t believe as you do with eternal damnation. This is not the love that Jesus preached but at base it is your hatred for all who don’t believe as you do and also your anger. Not very Christian of either of you, but then you both are too dense to understand that.

    Have a nice life since I will deal with you no longer. Cite that as a triumph for your
    love starved souls, that in truth are brimming with anger and hatred.

  45. Elizabeth Juanita Campbell{ hell is Gods glory to evil not bring like Jesus is. Read Revalaton 20. The wicked are consumed by Gods glory seen as fire. No one singing tip toe through the hot coals and flames back, and forth from the city of God.

  46. Mike Spindell the real truth has never been spoken, That is why people rely on the arm of man with the military thinking it is might, and legal system thinking that arresting is might. Whoever with two brain cells should know Jesus would be against them. All that I speak of concerning the KJV is the truth that is not perverted.

  47. “…when they cannot understand their scripture in any way that adds kindness and love towards other human beings. You foolishly think you are showering us with unknown thoughts, but in essence you cursing at us by threatening those who don’t believe as you do with eternal damnation. This is not the love that Jesus preached but at base it is your hatred for all who don’t believe as you do and also your anger.”

    Dear Mr. Spindle:
    Where shall I begin? It is your liberal ideology of anything goes, that prevents you from taking a firm stance: It keeps you in a luke-warm condition, indecisive, unclear, and un-trustworthy!
    You have spent so much time dropping bombs, and then running away from them….unable to defend them! Don’t tell me that you do not like and trust the Apostle John when his language is the same as others in the Bible not withstanding the centuries apart! And if you bring it up, be prepared to defend it! Your nonsense that you do not believe in god is hog-wash!
    Don’t tell me about Christian scholars, unless you hypocrite, you are willing to put forth their names, so that I can dismiss them as well! (That’s because your inventive Christian scholars do not exist)!
    You remind me of the “Peace & Love brother’ 60s hippie crowd! Come down to earth, smell God’s roses! The same loving God that is kind and full of gentleness that you describe, IS THE SAME ONE WHO WILL CONDEMN YOU TO HELL FOR REJECTING HIS SON!
    Remember Mike, the antonym to your Only peace and love without responsibility is the Cross! What happened there Mikey? Was Jesus Crucified? Mikey tell me, did they pierced his brow? Did they offer him Spring water to quench his thirst? Mikey, did they NAILED FAT GIGANTIC NAILS INTO HIS FEET? HIS HANDS: Did they pierced his side Mikey? Did they say, let your God take you down? Did they ask him to turn their water into wine?
    Grow up, God is not a toy for your amusement! He is not the father to indulge you, and then on death’s door some Paganist magician will pray you into heaven…twill be the hell ye deserve!

  48. Mike S, I see some Christians got the last word in at you. But I want to console you with the idea that if you go to Hell, I’ll be there and we can hang out. :razz:

  49. Malisha,

    That will be nice. Yes I “give up”. BTW did you notice how progressively vitriolic she became? A hate filled, angry person pretending to lovingly bestow her “wisdom”. :)

  50. Elizabeth Juanita Campbell: God does not condemn people to eternal soul death.That is the troth. Hell is not a place. Hell is evil seeing Gods glory as it really is. People condemn or save their soul with what they do or do not do now. Eternity starts now. It is not what people do to you. Do you get that? Don’t be like Jesus now who shows mercy, forgiveness is not deceptive not holding a grudge, long suffering, patient, and kind not killing to save the body. Not railing at a person subconsciously thinking it makes the raging railer better not jailing them either. People of their own free will chose eternal, life or eternal death.

  51. DHMCarver: Follow the truth that is in me, and you also will be saved. I will make it to heaven because heaven is already in me. Living God is heaven to those that do good even as Jesus did good. Bible is in me. We are to not swear by anything that in heaven or the earth beneath for it is Gods foot stool.
    KJV, Matthew 5:34: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

  52. Dude, really? You insist on using the KJV as your Godly-anointed scripture? Do you know anything about Christianity? Or about the KJV? Why don;t you follow Elizabeth’s lead, and exit stage outta here.

  53. Mike Spindell Religion was apposed to him when God walked with us, and is against people that have him in spirit now. Jesus minded his own business, but those that do not will be burned by his glory.

    I see religion clearly with all of their lies. I see Jesus clearly wherever he is. I unfortunately do not see Jesus in you at this time. Jesus is not a pharisee. He said the self righteous planing the death or Jesus people would not be in the kingdom of God. One pharisee repented, Nicodemus. Jesus is heaven in whoever.
    Please teach.
    Religions lie about what is in the KJV not telling the truth about key words turning Gods word in to a lie. Naughty in the KJV is being froward connected to abominable which to God is also being froward, and perverted too. Pro 4 24,Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
    KJV, Proverbs 3, 32For the froward is abomination to the LORD,
    Pro 12; 22Lying lips are abomination,
    Proverbs 6:12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
    Proverbs 17: 4,A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
    Jeremiah 24,2,One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are firt ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

    Religions are those words being naughty, perverted abominable, and froward. Jesus is none of those words.

  54. Mike S:

    Since these two are in Heaven for sure, can you get us an early am tee time at the Gehenna Hills Golf Course. Let’s play the red tees! I’ll bring the beer.

  55. Mike S, I remember seeing a cartoon once where a kid was trying to tell another kid all the things she was going to DO TO HER to punish her for some misdeed. The set-up appeared to be two little girls “playing house” and the speaking one was playing “the mommy.” She says to her:

    “I’m going to punish you; I’m going to yell at you; I’m going to spank you; I’m going to … to … to … to … SPLAIN IT TO YOU!”

  56. Mespo,

    I’m pulling strings with my connections in that golden clime. 8:00 am tee off, two Audi golf carts with cupholders. BTW I can also get us front row seats for the final act of Armageddon. I’m told the fire works will be spectacular.

  57. The final battle will be 1000 years after the second coming of Christ. The cities of Gog, and Magog surround the city of God Revelation 20 KJV read it. Gods light looks like fire consuming them They will cease to exist .

  58. Had Jesus be a pharisee The religious people would not have wanted him dead. Mark 14:1-9 KJV the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. .  John 12;10 the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; That is wanting to do worse to peoiple making the religious people like the sodomites. KJV,Genesis 19 >>. 9And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. You dare associate Jesus with murdering religious people, and oppressive sodomites? Sodomites were religious people you know. Bet no one told you that.b In Isaiah 1 KJV God would not hear their prayers

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