“They Have To Die”: Israeli Politician’s Comments Calling For Killing of Mothers of Palestinians Trigger International Backlash

220px-AYELET_SHAKED220px-Erdogan_croppedThe situation in Israel and Palestine continues to grow worse on both sides. First you had the savage murder of three Israeli teens. Then you had the retaliation burning of a Palestinian teenager. Now protests are erupting all over Israel and the world on both sides. Some of the coverage is focusing on statements made by Israeli lawmaker Ayelet Shaked on Facebook that day before three Israeli men went out and picked up Muhammad Abu Khdeir, 16, at random and burned him alive. Shaked’s post calls Palestinians “little snakes” and declares that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy.” Now comments by Israeli Knesset member Ayelet Shaked has caused an international outcry including contributing to a continuing rift with Turkey. Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has denounced the remarks and denounced Israel in an analogy to the Nazi regime. The situation is clearly getting worse by the day in the region.

Ayelet Shaked is a member of the ultra-nationalist Jewish Home party, which is part of the ruling coalition. She is quoted as calling for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.” Shaked posted a screed on Facebook that various critics are denouncing as a call for genocide. Shaked reportedly stated: “They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists . . . are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.”

The Facebook posting stated:

“Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

Her comments have become the focus of the rising protests over Israel’s response to the killing of the teenagers and later rockets attacks. Turkey’s Prime Minister responded with to the comments and later Israeli retaliatory strikes with a charge that Israel is now engaging state terrorism. He drew an analogy that itself is likely to enrage many Israelis: “An Israeli woman said Palestinian mothers should be killed, too. And she’s a member of the Israeli parliament. What is the difference between this mentality and Hitler’s?”

Shaked holds degree in electrical engineering and computer sciences and she worked in marketing for Texas Instruments. She has past ties to Benjamin Netanyahu. From 2006-2008, she was the office director for the office of Netanyahu. She then established “My Israel” with Naftali Bennet, but in January 2012 she was elected to serve as the coordinator of Likud. She later became a Knesset member for the Jewish Home Party, a successor party to the National Religious Party. The party is committed to a nation governed by Jewish law under the belief that Jews are divinely ordained to rule over the Land of Israel. The party has been active in supporting the expansion of Jewish settlements in Palestinian terrorizes and largely represents Orthodox Jews according to news report.

Here is what has been posted as a full translation of Shaked’s statement:

The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for us to define reality with the simple words that language puts at our disposal. Why do we have to make up a new name for the war every other week, just to avoid calling it by its name. What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word “war”, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

And the morality of war knows that it is not possible to refrain from hurting enemy civilians. It does not condemn the British air force, which bombed and totally destroyed the German city of Dresden, or the US planes that destroyed the cities of Poland and wrecked half of Budapest, places whose wretched residents had never done a thing to America, but which had to be destroyed in order to win the war against evil. The morals of war do not require that Russia be brought to trial, though it bombs and destroys towns and neighborhoods in Chechnya. It does not denounce the UN Peacekeeping Forces for killing hundreds of civilians in Angola, nor the NATO forces who bombed Milosevic’s Belgrade, a city with a million civilians, elderly, babies, women, and children. The morals of war accept as correct in principle, not only politically, what America has done in Afghanistan, including the massive bombing of populated places, including the creation of a refugee stream of hundreds of thousands of people who escaped the horrors of war, for thousands of whom there is no home to return to.

And in our war this is sevenfold more correct, because the enemy soldiers hide out among the population, and it is only through its support that they can fight. Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.

By the way, there was an interesting interview (here) with the Israeli spokesman (who by they way — regardless of how you feel about the merits of his argument — holds up well under a withering series of questions). The interview covers both views of the ongoing conflict.

UPDATE: Shaked responded by stressing that she was citing and quoting an article written by another individual some 12 years ago:

Let’s start with my July 1 Facebook post. It was written some 12 years ago, but never published, by a dear man, the recently departed journalist Uri Elitzur. The gist of his article was that once one side in a war attacks the other side’s civilians, they can no longer morally claim a special status for their own civilians.

Go ahead, ask a Hebrew speaking friend to translate it for you, they’ll confirm this is what my Facebook post was about. But you’ll find not a trace of that in Resnick’s account. Perhaps it’s his own ignorance of the Hebrew language. After all, he got the text from Electronic Intifada, a website dedicated to daily and hourly vilification of my country.

All Resnick had to do to make Elitzur’s sober, legally minded discussion sound like a speech made by Hitler himself, was to cherry pick words out of context. A call for the indiscriminate killing of children is a terrible thing. But what if the statement was that any time you attack our children, you’re exposing your own people to the same fate? Still unsettling, but rational when you consider their civilian population is actively supporting and participating in their war and terror efforts. It’s not a call for indiscriminate murder.

286 thoughts on ““They Have To Die”: Israeli Politician’s Comments Calling For Killing of Mothers of Palestinians Trigger International Backlash

  1. “Gaza: 4 Dead Boys on the Beach & Israel’s Precision War”

    http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/beach-israels-precision.html

    by Juan Cole

    Excerpt:

    “NBC.com caught the Israeli shelling of children on the beach on film. Apparently some of the children had been playing soccer with the journalists before the barrages began! There was no warning (contrary to what Euronews suggested) and there were no military targets on the beach. There were just little boys who tried to run away and who appear to have been deliberated targeted for a second strike by an Israeli gunboat.

    NBC journalists and editors appear to be angry about this incident, since, unusually for American television news, they dared be quite frank in their language about Israeli culpability. Veteran correspondent Richard Engels pointed out that despite Hamas’s largely ineffectual rockets, it is the Palestinians of Gaza who are bearing the brunt of Israeli bombardment, since they have no shelter and nowhere to go.

    “It was broad daylight. There was no warning . It wasn’t the precision war Israel says it is fighting… Israel claimed that it was firing at Hamas militants at the port. But the dead were four young boys.” That is, NBC just called the Israeli military bald-faced liars, because there were no Hamas militants on that beach, just children playing.

    What can we conclude from this sickening attack?

    1. Israel actually has quite bad intelligence about Gaza. The Israeli navy thought it was bombarding militants when it was actually just shelling a civilian beach with little children running around on it.

    2. Israel doesn’t know exactly what it is shelling. The Israelis clearly saw the four little boys running away, and deliberately fired another shell at them, killing them. The gunner surely thought he had Hamas in his sights. In fact, they were just little boys, deliberately targeted and killed as they were trying to get away.

    3. Israel’s so-called warnings to Palestinians to leave are absurd, because the civilians have no place to go in tiny Gaza.

    4. This is not a precision war on Israel’s part. The Israeli officers outside Gaza are just hitting any old target and then declaring it a Hamas depot.

    5. Israel’s response to the incident, that it will conduct an investigation, is pure propaganda. The Israeli government almost never finds against itself. The passive aggressive phraseology is a dead giveaway.

    The shelling of boys on a beach is symbolic of the aggressive paranoia of the Likud government.”

  2. It looks to me like she is calling war what it is. If this was happening to the U.S., we would have long ago sent the B -52s over to carpet bomb the crap out of them. My father, who was in the Air Force, used to tell us the whole point of war was to help the other side see the benefits of peace by killing the crap out of them.

    Collective guilt is not a good thing, because there usually is a significant part of the population that is being forced into it. But the Palestinians aren ‘t being forced into it. Heck no! They are ululating in glee over every jewish death. That population needs to be clobbered big time.

    What Shaked said seems mild under the circumstances.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  3. Given that the IDF engages in targeted killings unlike the terrorists who bomb indiscriminately, one would expect many more Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian. Historically, of course, the actual body count has been the reverse. One can hardly claim that dropping a nuclear bomb on a city in order to kill all the terrorists in that city is a targeted killing. What about destroying an entire apartment building because one apartment houses a Hamas leader? How much collateral damage is acceptable in a so-called “targeted killing” before one can be accused rightly of being reckless or at least indifferent to the loss of civilian life? It is no accident that civilians will likely die in targeted killings. Civilian casualties are no less intentional than the killing of terrorists despite the best efforts to minimize it. The only question is how many civilian deaths are justifiable for any terrorist? When you dehumanizes the population at large, there is no need to face that question…

  4. Excellent argument by Ayelet Shaked, however does she not realize that the same words would be even more appropriate coming from the mouth of a Palestinian justifying killing Israeli mothers and babies.

    The Palestinians have enemies who have dispossessed them and are still trying to implement a final solution to the Palestinian question. These enemies are Israelis and the fact that a particular Israeli is a noncombatant does not make him or her less an enemy of the Palestinians. Israeli mothers are the mothers of Israeli soldiers or future soldiers and thus justified targets, Israeli children are future soldiers and thus justified targets, Israeli tax payers fund the war machine that has been killing Palestinians since 1946, Israeli workers support the economy that supports the war.

  5. I’m anxiously awaiting our coming petroleum independence when we can finally be free from the entanglements in the Mid-East. They are all bad actors (though most of my sympathy lies with Israel) and the problems are incessant and convoluted. At some point we may have to say just fight it out and let the winner emerge. I’m not sure we can do much else since the hatred is embedded and passed from generation to generation.

  6. “U.K. Deputy PM: Israel strikes on Gaza ‘deliberately disproportionate'”

    “Nick Clegg accused Israel of ‘collective punishment’ against the Palestinians, and said that ‘they have proved their point.'”

    By Haaretz and Reuters | Jul. 17, 2014 | 3:44 PM

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605735

    “I really would now call on the Israeli government to stop. They have proved their point. Israeli of course retains the right to react. But you cannot see the humanitarian suffering in Gaza now and the very great number of deaths in Gaza without concluding that there is not much more going to be served in Israel’s own interests … to see this festering humanitarian crisis get worse. It incubates the next generation of violent extremists who want to do harm to Israel,” he said.

    The death toll in Gaza had reached 230 by Thursday since Operation Protective Edge began. On Wednesday, four children were killed in Gaza as the result of Israeli shelling. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad have fired more than 1,215 rockets and mortar shells into Israel since the hostilities began, reaching the length and breadth of the country. One Israeli has been killed, several wounded and millions of lives disrupted. Of the missiles fired, 38 have exploded in built-up spaces and 231 have been intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defense system.”

  7. Reading her statement, I thought exactly as Carlyle, she is making the case for Palestinians rockets, which is exactly what has been held against Hamas. Fascinating how the lessons of the Holocaust are lost on those who ought to learn most from it. Israel is the only country I see that gets to be both the bully and the bullied. To say that Hamas denies Israel the right to exist is always the straw man we keep using. Shelling Gaza is no more no less than shooting fish in a barrel. The land is taken, water is taken, access is taken, freedom is taken, lives are taken, and if you can justify it while claiming to be a humanist, friend, you are being hypocritical.

  8. Need to point a finger? Hamas! Violent, with ambitions similar to ISIS.

    There are Palestinians who hate and snitch on Hamas, but like a street gang, Hamas will kill them and their families dead and Israel didn’t even fire a shot.

    The problem with Egypt’s cease fire deals and why Hamas hates it, is because Hamas’s homie, the former president of Egypt, Mohamed Morsi is in the cooler.
    Remember, Morsi tried to grab military power. That’s part of the problem. Think you can turn a blind eye to this? It’s a small world with big bombs.

  9. The fact of the matter is that Israel has been directed by this mind set since 1948. The manner in which it is being done is attrition. The American West was won this way and what better paradigm can there be. Israel is the new wild west. The Palestinians are the Indians and the formula is the same, slaughter them into submission on reservations.

  10. @isick

    What a crock of hooey!!! The pallies and such ilk have been bombing and killing and hating and holocaust denying for nearly 50 years. Israel needs to build its own version of the B52 and set about convincing the inveterate murderers how much happier they would be in Syria or Iraq who both seem to have a lot of vacancies.

    Then, they need to get ahold of those jews with the funny clothes who won ‘t do military service and kick some sense into them . And put their sorry buttz to work. There! Middle East problems solved.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  11. Indeed, some here were clearly born yesterday. As Dredd says. Hate is an infection. It will continue to grow until the worst that humans can do will be done.

  12. The mentality that the families of their enemies should die is exactly why Palestinian terrorists blow up open air markets and school buses.

    Her contact with hatred had made her hateful herself.

    It sounds like she’s seen one too many funerals for suicide bombers in which the mothers claim they are proud of their sons for blowing up Israeli women and children.

    At least Israel immediately arrested, and is trying in court, the savages who murdered that Palestinian teen. I saw no such efforts by the PA to capture and punish the Palestinians who murdered the Israeli teens. Rather, they are lauded as heroes.

    The bottom line is that, unfortunately, Palestinians and Israelis cannot exist together in the same country. The Palestinian Authority has openly admitted that it will NEVER accept a Jewish homeland. They want Gaza back, but that is not all. They will never stop. They have declared that their goal is for Israel to be another Muslim country. They will accept nothing less. And losing that land would make Israel so narrow that the breadth of the country would be reachable via missiles. All of the surrounding Muslim countries have admitted that they feel the same way. So there can be occasional lulls in the fighting, but it will go on, as it has, since the inception of Israel. Saudi Arabia does not permit Jews to live there. If the Palestinians just will never, ever, stop fighting, then they should have to leave, too. It just is never going to work, otherwise.

    The important thing is for the fighting to stop and for peace to finally be obtained. And if two groups are simply unable to live together under those parameters, then they need to be separated.

  13. Squeeky:

    I know what you mean. The brother-in-law of one of my Persian friends was adamant that the Holocaust was a hoax, that all those videos and photos of the concentration camps were all staged. He also thought that the Jews knew about 9/11 beforehand, and all stayed home, but didn’t warn anyone else. He actually said, with a straight face, that no Jews died in 9/11.

    He immigrated to the US illegally across the Mexican border. I believe he later worked out his residency status because he married a Persian American citizen. Scary how easy it was for an extremist to stroll across our porous border.

    That kind of brain washing is hard to reason with, but it starts in infancy, at home and in the schools of Muslim hardline countries.

  14. Not unlike religious belief which largely accounts for climate science denial which science is no less a fact than the existence of the Holocaust.

  15. Krane:

    “It’s a small world with big bombs.”

    So true, and Iran is making a fool out of Obama and Kerry. They dictated that the terms of any deal would include their continuing their centrifuge work, and refusing to allow any inspectors. They’ve bulldozed the buildings, scooped out the dirt, and replaced it with fresh dirt, where they had one of their nuclear facilities, and they STILL won’t allow inspectors in.

    The Ayatollah announced that all of his military commanders have a divine duty to produce as many ICBMs (Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles) as they can. And he’s said he wants to produce thousands of centrifuges. He also announced, during a speech, that sometimes it is necessary to negotiate with Satan (the US) so that he can destroy it. He said he will wipe the US and Israel off the face of the Earth. He’s not even hiding this. He’s saying it in open speeches, without seeming to care that they get translated and are available to the most casual observer in the US. And meanwhile Kerry calls his diplomacy little victories.

    This is exactly how North Korea became nuclear; they delayed and delayed international action through minor attempts at diplomacy until they had the bomb and it was too late. Now we have to bet on its desire for self preservation. But how much of an instinct for self preservation can there be in a region that spawned suicide bombers and the Old Man of the Mountain?

    You can’t turn back time once millions of people are dead and the environment’s been destroyed by a nuclear attack on the US and Israel.

  16. As usual, these conflicts tend to reveal the underlying motives and attitudes of all parties involved. Jews have lots of compassion – but only for Jews. The most militant of Muslims hate Jews. It is high time that we here in the US base our own attitudes on our predominant religious beliefs and ask ourselves “What would the most famous Jew of all times, the Prince of Peace do? Make war or turn the other cheek? The answer is clear.

  17. Berlin, 1933 and Jerusalem, 2014: When racist thugs are on the prowl
    The gangs of Jewish ruffians man-hunting for Arabs are a manifestation of the dangerous evil that will surely triumph if good men continue to do nothing.

    By Chemi Shalev, Haaretz, Jul. 2, 2014

    On March 9, 1933, brown-shirted Sturmabteilung went on a rampage. “In several parts of Berlin a large number of people, most of whom appeared to be Jews, were openly attacked in the streets and knocked down. Some of them were seriously wounded. The police could do no more than pick up the injured and take them off to hospital,” the Guardian reported. “Jews were beaten by the brown shirts until blood ran down their heads and faces” the Manchester Guardian noted. “Before my eyes, storm troopers, drooling like hysterical beasts, chase a man in broad daylight while whipping him,” Walter Gyssling wrote in his diary.

    I know: you were outraged before you even finished the paragraph above. “How dare he compare isolated incidents here and there to Nazi Germany,” you are thinking to yourself. “This is an outrageous trivialization of the Holocaust.”

    You are right, of course. My intention is not to draw any parallel whatsoever. Both my parents lost their families during World War II, and I need no convincing that the Holocaust is a crime so unique in its evil totality that it stands by itself even in the annals of other premeditated genocides.

    But I am a Jew, and there are scenes of the Holocaust that are indelibly etched in my mind, even though I was not alive at the time. And when I saw the videos and pictures of gangs of right-wing Jewish racists running through the streets of Jerusalem, chanting “Death to the Arabs,” hunting for random Arabs, picking them out by their appearance or by their accents, chasing them in broad daylight, “drooling like hysterical beasts” and then beating them up before the police could arrive – the historical association was automatic. It was the first thing that jumped into my mind. It should have been, I think, the first thing that jumped into any Jew’s mind.

    Israel in 2014, it goes without saying, is not “The Garden of Beasts” that Erik Larson wrote about in his book on 1933 Germany. The Israeli government does not condone vigilantism or thuggery, as the Nazis did for a while, before Germans started complaining about the disorder on their streets and the damage to Berlin’s international reputation. I have no doubt that the police will also do their utmost to apprehend the murderers of the Palestinian boy whose burnt body was found in a Jerusalem forest. I am even praying that they find that the killing wasn’t a hate crime at all.

    But make no mistake: the gangs of Jewish ruffians man-hunting for Arabs are no aberration. Theirs was not a one-time outpouring of uncontrollable rage following the discovery of the bodies of the three kidnapped students. Their inflamed hatred does not exist in a vacuum: it is an ongoing presence, growing by the day, encompassing ever larger segments of Israeli society, nurtured in a public environment of resentment, insularity and victimhood, fostered and fed by politicians and pundits – some cynical, some sincere – who have grown weary of democracy and its foibles and who long for an Israel, not to put too fine a point on it, of one state, one nation and, somewhere down the line, one leader.

    In the past 24 hours alone, a Facebook Page calling for “revenge” for the killings of the three kidnapped teens has received tens of thousands of “likes,” replete with hundreds of explicit calls to kill Arabs, wherever they are. The one demanding the execution of “extreme leftists” reached almost ten thousand likes within two days. These, and countless other articles on the web and on social media are inundated, today as in most other days, with readers comments spewing out the worst kind of racist bile and calling for death, destruction and genocide.

    These calls have been echoed in recent days, albeit in slightly more veiled terms, by members of the Knesset, who cite Torah verses on the God of Revenge and his command on the fate of the Amalekites. David Rubin, who describes himself as a former mayor of Shiloh, was more explicit: in an article published in Israel National News he wrote “An enemy is an enemy and the only way to win this war is to destroy the enemy, without excessive regard for who is a soldier and who is a civilian. We Jews will always aim our bombs primarily at military targets, but there is absolutely no need to feel guilty about ‘disrupting the lives of, and killing or wounding enemy civilians who are almost entirely Hamas and Fatah supporters.”

    And hovering above all of this are Benjamin Netanyahu and his government, who persist in portraying our conflict with the Palestinians in stark terms of black and white, good versus evil; who describe Israel’s adversaries as incorrigible and irredeemable; who have never shown the slightest sign of empathy or understanding for the plight of the people who have lived under Israeli occupation for nearly half a century; whose pronouncements serve to dehumanize the Palestinians in the eyes of the Israeli public; who perpetuate the public’s sense of isolation and injustice; and who thus can be said to be paving the way for the waves of homicidal hatred that are now coming to light.

    Some people will draw a parallel between the ugly right wing violence that swept Israel after the Oslo Accords and today’s rising tide of dangerous racism, implicating Netanyahu in both: from his fiery anti-government speeches in Zion Square to Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination and from his harsh anti-Palestinian rhetoric to the outburst of horrid racism today. But that is an easy out. It is not Netanyahu who is to blame, it is the rest of us, Jews in Israel as well as those in the Diaspora, those who turn a blind eye and those who choose to look the other way, those who portray the Palestinians as inhuman monsters and those who view any self-criticism as an act of Jewish betrayal.

    This comparison is surely valid: Edmund Burke’s maxim ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing’ was true in Berlin in the early 1930s and it will hold true in Israel as well. If nothing is done to reverse the tide, evil will surely triumph, and it won’t take too long.

    http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/.premium-1.602697

  18. I think what ‘ol Chemi is missing is this. The Jews in 1933 sat on their collective rumps and relied on government to protect them. The 2014 Jews are a heck of a lot more proactive. Good for them.

    Is Shaked s racist thug? Hell no!!! She is somebody with enough common sense to know when it is kill or be killed.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  19. And another thing about ‘ol Chemi. Notice how he goes after good vs evil and black vs white as opposed to gray. That is by design. He is trying to shake the faith and confidence of the jews by all that waffling and mealy mouthing. This isn ‘t one of those issues that require a bunch of philosophizing. The pallies hate and want to kill jews. The smart jew will not waste time trying to analyze that hate.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  20. REMEMBER:
    It’s NEVER wiping a nation of people off the map when Israel does it…
    … Or is it these children had bad fathers?

  21. Bob, Esq.:

    That was one of the best explications I have yet to read on the impact of moral blindness on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I would add that in my view Mr. Netanyahu’s emphasis on bright-line righteousness is also calculated to appeal to his strongly fundamentalist Christian supporters in the U.S., whom I suspect he regards as useful idiots. I see no realistic prospects for the peace process as long as he remains in power.

  22. I may be a useful idiot but I support the Israel side of the aisles in this conflict. It is time to invade with ground forces in Gaza and wipe out the missiles and the perps. No more Hamas in Gaza. Palestinians can live in Egypt and Jordan. This is a three state solution.

  23. Squeeky: “What a crock of hooey!!! The pallies and such ilk have been bombing and killing and hating and holocaust denying for nearly 50 years.”

    Exactly what do you expect from people who were tossed off the land they had held for millennia by a group of people after WWII who felt the need to assuage their guilt for not acting sooner to stop the holocaust? The land was theirs and it was taken from them.

    Karen: ” The Palestinian Authority has openly admitted that it will NEVER accept a Jewish homeland.”

    Especially one on territory which was stolen from them by the aforementioned people.

    Whether you like it or not, the facts are the facts.

  24. The Israelites killed every living thing – men, women, children and animals – in Jericho so they couldn’t be attacked from the rear on their juggernaut.

    The West confiscated Palestinian land and ensconced Israelis on it.

    What’s the problem? Don’t worry. Be happy.

    If brutal nomads occupied your house, you would be ecstatic too.

    How about half the population of Mexico comfortably abiding in America?

    It’s a wonderful world.

  25. The 2 Palestinian groups. They don’t think alike and don’t agree on much.

    Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, opted for peace negotiations with Israel and renounced armed conflict. Done deal.

    Hamas leader Khaled Mashal (Sunni Islam), is convinced that Israel only understands the language of power and authority, and will not negotiate with Israel before it accepts the inevitability of Palestinian demands.

  26. The once abused have become the abuser… The cycle of life continues yet the pattern remains unbroken.

  27. It is difificult to compare to the bombing of Pearl Harbor by Japanese planes back on Dec 7th a day that will live in infamy. But if rockets were coming in from Mexico into Dallas then Americans would be talking more than reckless.

  28. The FACT is that the PA has accepted the two state solution as laid out in the Oslo accords. Hamas is the one which seized power illegally in Gaza and instituted a reign of terror against those who supported Al Fatah. At the beginning of the Hamas coup, there were two poor Fatah supporters who were released by the Israelis to their home in Gaza. Hamas gunmen shot them down. So it is an outright lie that the PA or most Palestinians support Hamas.

    It is also true that Netanyahu has no desire to have any kind of peace or follow Israel’s obligations under that same accord. Thus the PA is stuck in the middle with no prospect for peace or a full state, and Netanyahu and Hamas shooting it out with each other. This will only end when the hardliners are forced to make peace. One step needs to be cutting off US aid to Israel. If they want to have endless war, let them pay for it, NOT ME or US taxpayers. That will sober them up.

    I am appalled that there are some people here who are outright Nazis when discussing the Palestinians. It is like the slogan during the Vietnam war, Kill them all and let God sort them out. These people would have no problem pushing Palestinians into concentration camps and the gas chambers. Simply murdering all of one people or race is called genocide, and I am proud that the UN executed those types after WWII. Unfortunately, there were folks like Pope Pius XII who helped such criminals escape. As for those who think that the Palestinians need to go to other countries, I would ask them if it would be OK with them if Mexico rounded up all the refugees from Latin America within Mexico, and pushed them across our border and told us to take care of them since we have plenty of room for them.

  29. Hamas uses it’s own family members as shield, sacrificing them to make Israel look bad. Unfortunately, it works w/ weak minded people. If we had terrorists lobbing missiles @ Buffalo, Rochester, NY from just over the Canadian border, most all US citizens would be calling for carpet bombing.

  30. Nick,

    You left out the part of your hypothetical where the U.S. is occupying the land of said country and imposing a system of apartheid while fostering racist propaganda justifying the indiscriminate murdering of said population under the guise of “self defense.”

    Any American with a high school understanding of physics would be able to explain the rocket attacks via Newton’s third law.

  31. Spinelli,

    You mean that Israel doesn’t look bad occupying part of Palestine?

    There’s Palestine, then, suddenly in 1948, it morphs into Israel?

    That dudn’t make any sense.

    That looks bad to objective global observers without interest or bias. It only looks good to people with a pro-Israel agenda. How many of those are there in the world?

    How did the Israelites conduct relations with established states in the Middle East for millennia? Assimilation? So there is a way for Israelis to exist peacefully in the region – assimilation, right? But then they would be required to quit Palestinian land which they do not own, with the only related record being the illegal confiscation and adverse possession of 1948, right?

    That could be a problem, huh?

  32. Max-1 We already know the answer to your question, only it was not millions of Jews who were in a REAL prison, but the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII. The world did nothing, as did the Polish Home Army who did not come to their aid in any meaningful way. Of course, Gaza is not an open air prison at all since Hamas runs the place, can get thousands of rockets that they shoot into Israel, and in fact is a semi-nation state under blockade and siege. All Hamas needs to do is stop shooting rockets into Israel. Simple. But of course, you forget that Hamas denounced the cease fire proposed and AGEED TO BY ISRAEL.

    Then you forget that Israel does NOT control the other Gaza border. Egypt does, and they are the ones who have closed it because Hamas is not the legal or legitimate government of the PA. So you will have to denounce Egypt too for closing the borders. I have no sympathy for Hamas and think and hope Israel will go in and kill them off. Then there might be a chance of peace once they are eliminated.

  33. It looks to me like American lefties are creating and latching on to “apartheid” and “racism” in the Middle East to justify their own agenda here. Oh yeah those Israelis are big bad racists compared to the muzzies. What a laughable position so that they can continue to play Freedom Riders.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reportef

  34. It’s going to be a busy news day for tonight.

    With Israel launching a ground operation AND Pro Russian rebels shooting down a Malaysian Boeing 777. 295 dead, and some were US citizens.
    These are crazy times. What else could possibly go wrong? Be happy if you live to see the sun rise.

  35. Bob, Esq., Did you forget to include the fact that your alleged victims refuse to recognize Israel’s right to exist, and vows to kill all Jews living on “their land.” If the US were in Israel’s shoes we would have been EXPONENTIALLY more aggressive. Indeed, the problem would have been solved decades ago, if you get my drift.

  36. I doubt the pro-Russians shot down the airliners since they don’t have the missile system to reach that altitude. The suspects are that the Ukrainian military did that since they have already shot down an airliner before. Of course, it is turns out it was the pro-Russians, it will be banner headlines, and if the Ukrainians did it, there will be no reporting of that in the West.

  37. Squeeky, I have seen a on US liberals in a very short time frame. Couldn’t be that it’s now conservative Israeli’s calling the military shots?? Begin was pretty tough on Palestinians!

  38. randyjet
    Of course, Gaza is not an open air prison at all…
    = = =
    Derailed by propaganda…
    So, Palestinians can come and go, FREELY?

  39. randyjet
    I have no sympathy for Hamas and think and hope Israel will go in and kill them off. Then there might be a chance of peace once they are eliminated.
    = = =
    You could have stopped after the first four words…
    … Yet you continued on with the ‘elimination’ rhetoric.

    Nazi talk, indeed!

  40. randy, You are, as is often the case, talking out of your ass. We always know for whom your sympathies are w/ by your willingness to make up “facts” out of thin air! Will you eat these words you just wrote w/ some crow if the REAL facts show otherwise. I am w/ the Ukrainians but I just don’t have the stomach for making up stuff. I’m a PI and revere the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

  41. Squeeky
    Oh yeah those Israelis are big bad racists compared to the muzzies.
    = = =
    What’s a muzzies?
    Why use derogatory remarks about a people of Faith to make your point?
    Who does this dehumanizing talk remind you of?
    Link to those “American lefties” here who dehumanize ‘others’ so as to cement their logic in?

  42. They can if Egypt will let them out. By the way, the situation is more like a siege of a city than that of a prison. Hamas has basically declared war on Israel, and they are losing. Tough! You declare and act on war, the little guy usually loses. Think Grant committed a war crime when he starved Vicksburg into submission? Think Lincoln was wrong to order the blockade of Southern ports. Did that make them open air prisons where the Union Army blasted them with artillery? You go to war, you lose people and arms. Tough!

  43. Squeeky, I meant to say US liberals have done a quick 180 degree turn on Israel. Liberal Jews can defend themselves against terrorists and be heroes. But, once Israeli’s elected conservatives. well then the terrorists became the victims. Liberal and conservative Americans would have voted to wipe Hamas and Hesbollah off the face of the earth if we were having suicide bombers and missile attacks killing our citizens. With this administration allowing ISIS to get so powerful, that may be something the next US administration will be dealing w/.

  44. 3 Israeli youths murdered…
    … Instead of Law and prosecution, Israel calls for “COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT” against a group of people seeking their own country.

    Who does the “LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD” support?

    Rules of Law be damned, Liberty has died.

  45. nick, You have as little regards for truth and investigating things as Palin. If you would read the Hufpo article it mentions the FACT that the Ukraine admitted it shot down a Russian airliner in 2001, killing 78 Russians. I know that you do not regard Russians as people, but the rest of us, the world other than Poles and Ukrainians DO.

    Also the idea that the pro-Russians would shoot down a foreign airliners over their airspace is absurd since they know that would be a provocation that will really get things going badly for them. Since the Ukrainian military is being run by the fascists parties, the best guess that I would make is that the Ukrainians did it to pressure the West to join them in killing off ethnic Russians. My bet is that the fascists in the Ukraine did since they have the most to gain from such a thing. I guess in your investigative career you never bothered to ask who profits from an act. Try it. You might improve your game.

  46. I do hope that you, black and whitist, pro-Israeli no matter what, Hamas is evil-palestinians bad, read Bob, Esq.’s post and stop frothing at the mouth enough to reflect on his words. And Karen S, as usual, islamophobe inveterate, you blame the hatred the woman displayed on having gone to too many burials of suicide bombers’ victims! Really!? So Israeli are not even responsible for what is their heart? Does that logic apply in reverse too?

  47. No Nick,

    I don’t get your drift.

    Deontologically speaking, Israel is racking up reparation costs it’s going to have to pay to the Palestinians when and if this is all said and done.

  48. WTF does Palin have to do w/ this??? Your comment of 5:18pm is muddled and ludicrous, unworthy of a response other than what I just said. We apparently agree on Israel so why don’t we just leave it there. The FACTS will come out in the shooting down of that Malaysian plane. I’m patient and prudent enough to wait for that inquiry to be completed.

  49. Spinelli,

    Hold on there. Those are good Americans up there in Canada.

    If missiles came from that direction, America would presume that Canada had been surreptitiously infiltrated and we would work with our Canadian friends to locate and neutralize the perpetrators.

    Below the southern “border,” by contrast, exists a known, proven, quantifiable and targetable criminal component and, therefore, enemy. The rational and budget-minded among us would eschew the “carpet” mode and decisively deploy appropriately abundant levels of “neutron” ordinance.

  50. Doesn’t fail, obviously both Nick and Randyjet were dropped on their heads, to be able to spout such inanities as: “Bob, Esq., Did you forget to include the fact that your alleged victims refuse to recognize Israel’s right to exist, and vows to kill all Jews living on “their land.” If the US were in Israel’s shoes we would have been EXPONENTIALLY more aggressive. Indeed, th”e problem would have been solved decades ago, if you get my drift.”
    I have no idea how to even address that. Brains, hearts and speech are surely wasted on some.

  51. Bob, The only way this will be “said and done” is if Iran or some other rogue nation wipes Israel off the face of the earth. I pray that never occurs. How ’bout you?

  52. po, So you have no response but to ridicule people. That’s probably all you are capable of. The people Israel is fighting wants all Jews dead. The terrorists admit that. It is not debatable. That’s why you resort to ad hominem. I won’t ridicule you. I couldn’t do better than you are yourself.

  53. My guess is that it was the work of Ukrainian separatists using a captured surface to air missile and acting without a clue that they were shooting down a commercial airliner,

  54. Nick, if you justify what has been happening in Palestine for over 5 decades with the mere lack or recognition of Israel by Hamas and its vow to kill all jews, then it is just easier and much more satisfying to ridicule you from afar, for it be wasted brain cells than to try convincing you of the errors of your ways. “alleged victims”? “your land”? Facts are not lessened simply by wrapping them with air quotes. How can I legitimately debate you when you are entitled to your own facts?

  55. nick The original post said that it was pro-Russians who shot the plane down. You did not take any exception to that and went further by saying that I made up things like the Ukrainian military having shot down a Russian airliner before. I gave you a source you can read to verify that FACT. I seriously doubt the pro-Russians did it since it would hurt their cause, but there are fools on all sides so one cannot absolutely rule that out. I also pointed out that my speculation was just that. The Ukrainians have a LOT to gain by doing such a thing and accusing the pro-Russians. There is no question it was shot down, but the trick will be WHO had the missile capability to do it, and who did it? Black boxes will not provide those answers.

  56. po
    It’s like the relative you let stay in the extra basement room for the weekend instead insisting the entire house is his domain a year later and has now redecorated the living room, diningroom, both bathrooms, remodeled the kitchen, built an extension onto the garage for his RV of in laws. Then, locks you in your bedroom and bars your windows…

    Some would argue that you deserved it.

  57. The libertardian Sam Brownback has been rejected by a lot of Kansas Republicans after he did what Bush II did to the nation at large: More than 100 current and former Republican officials endorsed Democratic state Rep. Paul Davis’s bid to unseat Gov. Sam Brownback (R) Tuesday, marking a new setback for the incumbent, who was already facing a competitive reelection campaign.

    A mass defection like this is not typically seen in statewide campaigns. It signaled the tough road ahead Brownback could face as the November election approaches.

    The collection of Republicans, dubbed “Republicans for Kansas Values,” endorsed Davis’s bid at an event in Topeka. They oppose Brownback for a laundry list of reasons, including tax cuts he spearheaded, cuts to education spending and his alienating some centrist members of the GOP.

    The Republicans include state legislators, mayors and delegates to Republican National Convention, among others. (WaPo).

    Isreal is going to reap what they are sowing too.

  58. A few deontological duties:

    • Duty of non-maleficence (to avoid harming other people).

    • Duty of justice (to ensure people get what they deserve).

    • Duty of reparation (to recompense someone if you have acted wrongly towards them).

    • Duty of promise-keeping (to act according to explicit and implicit promises, including the implicit promise to tell the truth).

    Just saying…

  59. Where did you obtain the universal axiom – Israel has a right to exist?

    The universal axiom (paraphrased) is that every particle of matter has a right to exist until it doesn’t.

    Britain had a right to its colonies until it didn’t.

    The States had the right to unite and secede until they didn’t.

    The USSR had the right to unite and secede until it didn’t.

    [[Oops! Something funny there, huh (could it be global recognition, past, present and future, of the right to secede on the part of a sub-state, like Henry VIII had the right to divorce way back when)?]]

    Hitler had a right to create an efficient, high-tech, super society and war machine until he didn’t.

    Martin Luther King had a right to plagiarize, philander, solicit alms and protest until he didn’t.

    Americans had a right to freedom and the “blessings of liberty” with a noninterfering government limited to security and infrastructure under the literal words of the Preamble, Constitution and Bill of Rights,

    UNTIL THEY DIDN’T.

    Seriously!

    The inmates have taken over the asylum.

  60. An interview the US will never let happen…
    ‘The Israeli military does not target civilians’ – video

  61. “I and the pbluic know, what all schoolchildren learn;
    Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.”

  62. po
    The relative BBQ’s for the neighborhood now. Don’t dare try to break out of your room… He’s threatened to bulldoze it.

  63. Randy, Randy Randy, The talking out of your butt was your comment that “the pro Russians do not have a missile system to shoot down and airline @ that altitude.” How in the hell could you know that?? That area is in a state of flux. Things change hourly. I’ve tried to discuss subjects w/ you in the past and you are all over the place. Bringing up something that occurred decades ago, and then saying I said you made that up is diversionary @ best. Again, you made up knowledge of what missile systems pro Russian separatists have. Acknowledge that, and we can continue. Otherwise, I won’t engage further.

  64. BC,

    “I and the public know, what all schoolchildren learn;
    Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.”

    So you’re saying it is circular and infinite; that Israel will find the only conclusive solution is to quit the land and return it to its rightful and only owners, make the Palestinians whole again and eliminate the ill will (i.e. evil) right?

    That would be a solution and it makes real good sense, I mean there is logic to it, right?

    Israel gives the Palestinians their land back.

    Everybody goes back to their own country (or state of assimilation as the case may be) and they’re all happy again.

    Sounds good. Let’s all do it.

    Geez! I just thought of something. People going home could replace war.

    Yeah! The biological bipeds of identical plumages are gregarious and that has a certain calming effect.

    Let’s promulgate that.

  65. Not to far off topic…..Guess where the commander and chief is tonight?

    July 17, President Barack Obama is traveling to New York City Thursday for two campaign fundraising events during a national transportation tour. Came in during evening rush hour.

    Cocktails, eats and money. Shut off the cell phone and have it rollover to Joe Biden. Has anyone seen Joe? Joe, are you out there?

  66. Well, to paraphrase the drug rehab rejoinder, “the Gazans haven ‘t been hurt enough yet.” Maybe when they have been, they”ll quit firing missiles at Israel. That ‘s how this latest dustup started didn ‘t it???? The Gazans shot first??? Because that don ‘t seem to matter to some folks here.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  67. For a colonial settler state like Israel to allow the aggrieved and sullen indigines whose land they have confiscated to remain is an open invitation to terrorism.

    Israel desperately needs a Final Solution to The Palestinian Question.

  68. Squeeky
    That ‘s how this latest dustup started didn ‘t it???? The Gazans shot first???
    = = =
    Incorrect.
    A Trail of Clues Leading to Victims and Heartbreak
    Israeli Teenagers Found Dead; Hamas Under Pressure

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/02/world/middleeast/details-emerge-in-deaths-of-israeli-teenagers.html

    What you’re attempting to do is legitimize excessive use of brute force to exact a retribution upon a nation of people so as to carry out an extermination… er… elimination regime. You can sit there and rationalize it all you want.

    Then explain to us why Obama doesn’t drone Detroit with all it’s murderers running rampant on the streets… You know, to bring a sense of peace to the city.

    I’ll wait for your response…

  69. Squeeky,
    It you could simply explain why Israel decided to NOT enforce laws against murder and arrest and try the perps…

  70. Being reported on CNN. Just this week Russian backed rebels shot down a Ukraine jet and cargo plane, bragging about their deeds. This morning a rebel leader bragged on Twitter about shooting down a Ukraine cargo plane @ the time and place the MALAYSIAN passenger jet was shot out of the sky. There were reportedly 23 Americans on board. Our president needs to make a forceful statement and arm the Ukrainian people to defend themselves against a murderous KGB animal named Putin. A “line in the sand” screw up emboldened Putin. A real line needs to be drawn this time. Shooting down passenger planes w/ our citizens is an act of war. There is no debate on that. You prevent a war by responding forcefully and demanding answers from Putin. You need to stop the Hampton’s fundraisers, and get to work protecting US citizens. Something you swore to do. Of course, Obama also swore to uphold the Constitution and we know how that worked out.

  71. How about when the US deliberately shot down the Iranian Airbus in international airspace and on its designated route? Think that the international community should have declared war on the USA? How about banning all US flights going to other countries as we did when the Soviets shot down KAL 007 over SOVIET prohibited airspace.

  72. How about defending your assertion Russian backed rebels didn’t have the capability to do this. You MUST eat that crow before I respond.

  73. Again, You are dishonest. Shooting down a passenger air plane IS AN ACT OF WAR. I did not say there should be a war. Indeed I said we should avoid war and said how best to do it. You are on my do not read or respond list. Like others here, you’re dead to me now. I should have put you on that list a long time ago. Ciao.

  74. Max-1,

    Thanks for reminding me about where Joe is. JT has a blog about that Biden Ukraine gas conflict of interest deal.
    With all the excitement going on and everyone throwing rockets & bombs, it slipped mind. Please except my apology. I’m going into NYC and see if I can crash a party.

  75. I have not seen the reports number one, number two it is quite different to shoot down a cargo turboprop plane at 20,000′ and shooting down other smaller kinds of aircraft. Nobody doubted that they could shoot down a helicopter with small rockets as they did previously. Shooting down a jet at 33,000′ is quite another matter and requires a lot more than a shoulder fired missile.

  76. Squeeky, The UN, who HATE ISRAEL, just reluctantly reported today they found a dozen Hamas missiles in a UN school in Gaza.

  77. @Max1

    Sorry for the delay. It was chow time and you have to wolf your food down before the other inmates take it away from you. Let me tell you, some of these old folks are heck on wheels. I keep a butter knife shank on me to whack their hands with.

    Anyway, I started reading your NYT article and it flatly says the Gazans fired missiles first. Sooo, why am I supposed to feel sorry for them???

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  78. @NickS

    Imagine that. The poor victims hid their missiles in a school. Imagine the Longfellow(?) poem. . .

    Missile Tov???
    by Squeeky Fromm

    I shot a missile I believe
    Which fell to earth in Tel Aviv.
    The IDF guys got real sore
    And so they fired sixteen more.
    I see them now, their smokey trails
    Coming this way and HOLY CR

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

    PS: Missed you the last few days.

  79. The War on Gaza and the Cycle of Impunity

    If Israel is not brought to justice, it will commit the same crimes again and again.

    As we go to press, Israel’s third assault on Gaza in five years continues into its second week, with no end in sight. So far the Israeli military has killed nearly 200 Palestinians—some 80 percent of them civilians, according to the United Nations—and wounded more than 1,300. Israeli officials boast of their precision targeting, but the high civilian casualty rate, stemming from deliberate attacks on homes as well as a hospital, school, cafe, a rehab center for the disabled, mosques and other nonmilitary infrastructure, calls to mind the conclusion of Haaretz columnist Gideon Levy, who wrote, “The goal of Operation Protective Edge is to restore the calm; the means: killing civilians. The slogan of the Mafia has become official Israeli policy.”

    Of course, Hamas’s strategy of firing poorly aimed rockets—some 1,000 of them to date—at Israeli cities is just as atrocious as the far more deadly Israeli barrages; both are in fact violations of international law amounting to war crimes. But the wildly disproportionate casualty rate—one Israeli has been killed so far, and a few injured—exposes the true nature of this “war,” in which one of the world’s most powerful militaries uses F-16s, helicopter gunships, drones and heavy artillery against a nearly defenseless, imprisoned population with nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

    Reflexive US support for Israel by politicians from both parties is of long vintage and no surprise to anyone. Even so, it was shocking and shameful to hear White House and US diplomats repeatedly voice support for Israel’s “right to defend itself” as it rained bombs and missiles down on the people of Gaza. Much of the US media repeated tired clichés about the “cycle of violence,” as if the conflict began when three Israeli teens were kidnapped and murdered. But lost in the media frenzy was the deeper context to this latest round of bloodshed. The collapse of the ill-starred peace process in the spring had created a dangerous vacuum. Secretary of State John Kerry mostly attributed the failure to Israel’s relentless settlement project. Israel, for its part, blamed the accord between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, which it was determined to destroy.

    The government saw its opportunity in the kidnapping of the three teens: although Israeli police were almost certain within days that the teens had been murdered—and almost certainly by freelance thugs rather than Hamas operatives—the Shin Bet placed a gag order on the media so that it could round up hundreds of Hamas members. At the same time, the government ginned up a #BringBackOurBoys campaign—a cruel deception of the anguished parents, but also part of a strategy to foment public hysteria against Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular. It worked—perhaps better than intended, as an ominous, pogromlike atmosphere fell across the country when the teens’ bodies were found, with Netanyahu himself tweeting a cry of “vengeance for the blood of a small child.” The mob attacks culminated in the lynching of a Palestinian teen.

    (cont.)

    http://www.thenation.com/article/180683/war-gaza-and-cycle-impunity#

  80. What Randy said. To bring down a large aircraft above 25,000 feet takes a missile as big as a telephone pole.

    The US made Stinger has about a 15,000 foot range. One of the largest human portable SAM missiles is the UK’s Starstreak, and it’s maximum altitude is about 23,000 feet.

  81. Hopefully the location the missile fired from will be established.

    I’ll bet the persons who fired the missile were a bit trigger happy and the deployment of the weapon system to the area was certainly state sponsored.

    I don’t see the rebels as being responsible for this, that is the home grown kind. What type of regular Ukrainian, that is an average person joining the cause, has access and has training for a sophisticated weapon such as this?

    If the Ukrainian government ordered the airliner to be shot down why did this happen 50 km from the border with Russia after having travelled already nearly fully across the country. The Russians were suspected of shooting down a Ukrainian Cargo aircraft earlier and this happened.

    My opinion, based upon what I have read so far, is that the missile was fired from a Russian missile battery, just inside the Russian side of the border, upon semi-standing orders and the airliner was mistaken for a Ukrainian aircraft. I extremely doubt the Russian and Ukrainian governments would intentionally order the shooting down of a civilian airliner knowing it was such. They have nothing to gain in doing so, plus they are certainly more moral and honorable than that.

    But something went horribly wrong with either the communication or targeting of the airliner and someone on the ground acted way out of line.

    It likely is in my view is an analogue of what happened when a US naval ship shot down the Iranian airliner and not the same circumstance as with the case of the KAL 007 flight shot down in 1983 as it mistakenly crossed over Russian territory.

  82. Squeeky
    Dodge is best played in the school yard.
    So, why dodge factual events?
    Oh, and my straight up question of, why is it OK for Israel to launch a war over three youths being murdered? What prevents Israel from enforcing the LAW?

  83. Darren, Unfortunately, you have a lot of errors. I agree that according to Gen Ryan, this kind of weapon is too sophisticated for the pro-Russian rebels to use, and I think that all folks agree this had to be done by professionals. It takes a lot of training and practice to shoot the BUK system.

    The facts that we know are that the fascist parties staged a coup that overthrew the government of Yanukovych and forced him to flee. These same parties are now in control of the military, and interior police forces. I seriously doubt that Porochenko has control of them since they have been recruiting and arming units in those areas made up only of their own supporters. Thus these fascists have access to and control over such weapons, and can place them in their party units. It is fairly obvious why the fascists would shoot down the airliner at or near the Russian border to make it look like the Russians did it. Thus provoking outrage against the Russians which would lead to more weapons and troops to help them attack Russia. The Russians are not so stupid as to give control of such a powerful weapon like this to a ragtag band of civilians. The Ukrainian fascists are quite prepared to shoot not only civilians down, but they were shooting their own people in the square to generate outrage at the late government. I doubt the Ukrainian President had any part in this, since he is hostage to his temporary allies.

    The Iranian Airbus shot down by the US Navy was not shot down by a naval aircraft. It was shot down by the Aegis missile defense system. The Navy was rather pissed off that a one billion dollar system could not tell the difference between an A320, and an F-14. Turns out they chalked it up to human error, something I am sure the Iranians and most of the rest of the world did not buy.
    KAL007 did not accidentally fly over that prohibited area. It was planned and I am sure with the 007 number it had plenty of cameras on board to photograph what it saw. That was shot down by an intercepting aircraft but only after the crew failed to respect the rules for landing on Soviet territory.

  84. The 2 fly boys are now both blowing smoke. It’s obvious neither are up to speed w/ the information available. They could be eating crow soon. Foreign Policy magazine published a report YESTERDAY, BEFORE this act of war, on the antiaircraft weaponry being deployed against the sovereign country of the Ukraine. The missiles being used are quite capable of shooting down an airliner @ 35k feet. It was almost certainly not the Ukraines who did this. It was either Russian supported rebels, or the Russians themselves, I put my money on the former. Either way, Putin is responsible and must be made to pay, DEARLY. It was probably incompetence, but that does not matter to the 295 dead, and their families, now does it!

  85. Max-1 From what I have read, the reason for this attack is that Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel on a long term basis. The murder of the three boys is of little consequence for retaliating against Hamas for the missiles. In fact, Israel arrested about 100 Palestinians in searching for the culprits.

  86. USA Today is now reporting the Russian rebels are known to have antiaircraft missiles capable of downing a commercial airline up to 45k feet.

  87. It’s now being reported there are wiretaps of Russian rebels claiming responsibility for shooting down the Malaysian aircraft. This is one example where maybe the NSA could confirm or deny this information. We KNOW they have it!

  88. OMFG!
    Let me spell this out and not use any big words so as not to confuse.

    Big airplane shot down.

    Big airplane flying at high altitude.

    Shoulder launch missile cannot shoot down big airplane at high altitude.

    BIG missile needed to shoot down big airplane at high altitude.

    Big missile very expensive.

    Big missile very complex and needs highly trained crew to operate.

    Big missile and highly trained crew needs ground support and radar.

    Big missile, highly trained crew and ground support means government military.

    Big missile, highly trained crew and necessary ground support is not a ragtag operation. Professionals needed.

    EOM

  89. Putin has equipped and trained these rebels to do his dirty work, just like the scum sucking KGB he is. It has bitten him in the ass now. A strong US President would make him pay for this act of war.

  90. These are NOT SHOULDER fired missiles the Russians have provided the rebels. They are BM 21 Grad missiles fired from mobile missile launcher machinery. Have you read ANYTHING about this, old fly boy? Your arrogance is merging w/ your ignorance on this topic, Chucky, and you are looking REAL BAD! First rule of getting out of a hole, STOP DIGGING and start READING.

  91. Thanks, Chuck. That’s what I thought when I read this missile story. My neighbor was an F-4 (one of my favorite jets) guy in Vietnam. He said the SAMs of that era were powerful but inaccurate at low altitudes, He said hitting an aircraft at above 25K feet was nigh impossible. With the advances in technology I’m sure it’s now possible, but damn hard to do.

  92. AS I said previously, Foreign Policy Magazine reported on this BEFORE this act of war. The Russian company that makes these missiles were put under sanctions by Obama, YESTERDAY, BEFORE this act of war. Liberals do have condescension down perfectly. How would you like your crow prepared, Chucky? How about “w/ some fava beans and a nice chianti.”

  93. From CNN:

    “It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something,” he said.
    Typically, a surface-to-air battery missile consists of a command post vehicle, a radar vehicle, several self-propelled launchers, loader vehicles and even more vehicles to carry new missiles to the batteries as necessary, according to Dan Wasserbly, Americas editor for IHS Jane’s.
    Ryan concludes then that if the plane really was shot down, a professional military force — either on purpose or by accident — was responsible.
    “This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage and fire,” he said.”

  94. These rebels are trained and include retired Russian military and KGB. Just like we use the same ilk in our covert operations.

  95. Who said or even implied these were shoulder fired missiles? Chucky is still fighting the Soviet Afghan war apparently.

  96. @max1

    Yeah, what randyjet said. Israel responded to a missile attack with a missile attack. This is like a Son of Trayvon movie. What’s next, accusing Israel of using a stand your holy ground law???

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

    PS: Sorry again for delay. Had meds and fell asleep.

  97. Ok, I surmise you folks are now doing your homework. Chucky, you let your utter disdain for me, and your sanctimony regarding all things aviation, hurt you here. I made my living having people underestimate me. It takes true self esteem to use that as a tactic. I learned it from Columbo. I got the self esteem from being raised and educated right.

  98. Not to worry.

    Under Reagan, aggressive countries could expect a swift and powerful response.

    Under the very ineligible Obama, a response can’t be found in D.C., and he wasn’t there and he doesn’t know anything about it anyway.

    If this leads to WWIII, it will have to be conducted without the United States, Obama is playing golf.

  99. Colonel Igor Strelkov of Moscow, an old buddy of Putin, has been leading the Russian rebels. He has bragged recently of having the capabilities to establish and no fly zone over the eastern Ukraine. Today, he bragged about bringing down a Ukrainian cargo plane. He then got reports from his troops on the ground @ the wreckage that it was a civilian aircraft w/ women and children. Strelkov quickly took down the post.

  100. Like anyone seeking the truth I look for contrary reports. PRAVDA is reporting the Malaysian jetliner was “most likely” shot down by Ukrainian troops. But, even Pravda didn’t call them fascists as the brave Ukrainians have despicably been called here.

  101. THE PURPOSE OF WARS ARE TO ENRICH THE ELITES AND FORCE THE STATES OR COUNTRIES INTO SUBMISSION.along with stealing the natural resources of said countries or states that is it and all nothing more or less. humanity will never accept that truth they would rather die and admit or accept the truth of it all will they ever find the atu waa ? maybe but HUMANity doesnt care or it cares about is the lies its told from beginning to end. and all that really matters is humanity is allowed to keep living in a rose colored world where history is what they are told it is. laws are bad for minorities and excellent for others. drugs are bad bad bad unless given to them by the pharma industry. muslims are savages while jews are the greatest i mean hey their bloodline is pure right?

    They are the chosen ones according to? oh yea fanatical clerics and po lie trickers but hey they have only told us the truth from the beginning and it doesnt matter how many politicians, scientist and ex corporation workers have attempted to tell us the truth we are only going to listen to the uber rich who no longer even pretend to be a goverment they are telling the people outright now they are a corporation and the people are their slaves but it would behoove us to NOT BELIEVE IN THE BS THEY SPEW AT US. but go find out the truth on our own.. isnt that right snowden? and channing? along with many others

    hip hip hooray world war three has begun and the fema trains are ready and waiting for anyone who dares oppose the corporation.

  102. Guys:

    The region used to be part of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled warring factions with an iron fist. Great Britain arbitrarily drew lines on a map to create Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. And sometimes those lines didn’t sit well with the people living there.

    And as for Palestinians’ territorial rights: They, like every other population, migrated from lower economic to higher economic value regions. Population figures from the Ottoman Empire confirm that in 1905, as the economy improved, about 1/3 of the Arab Palestinians’ growth was due to immigration, both legal and illegal. Again, when Great Britain poured Crown treasure into Israel, there was a corresponding boom in Arab immigration. The incessant fighting between Arabs and Jews with the formation of Israel, and a small militant Nationalist faction of Israelis, also contributed to a brief Arab Palestinian outpouring. But a great many of the Arab Palestinians who claim ownership of Israel are, in fact, immigrants who arrived within the past 100 years or so.

  103. John, I most certainly do hope the US will stay out of WWIII. Of course, with some nuts running around saying that an act of war has been committed by Russia with shooting down the Malaysia jet, it may be difficult politically. I wonder how this calls for war between the US and Russia. Maybe they will “find” a US citizens body in the wreckage to justify war. Then I love the fact that some call for Putin to pay a steep price for killing all those people. I guess that they mean like Reagan paid a steep price for killing all those Iranians he shot down in INTERNATIONAL airspace. The US did not even court martial the skipper and Reagan gave him a medal. Contrast that with his reaction when the Soviets shot down KAL 007 which was LEGAL under international law and ICAO rules since the plane was over prohibited airspace clearly marked on all charts, and it ignored the tracers fired to alert the crew to follow and land behind the intercepting aircraft.

    The President of the Ukraine I have not called a fascist, just the four cabinet ministers who are proud to call themselves that. I suggest you go to the BBC and its interviews with those folks. The fascists have control of the Defense and Interior which controls the police and military. In the Ukrainian military, they have set up separate units that are loyal not to the Ukraine, but to the fascists. THAT is the problem. I doubt the President has any real control over his army or police now.

  104. Here is a very brief history of “Palestine,” which was a region, not a country. In fact, Jordan covers most of what was previously considered the region of Palestine. So Jordan IS Arab Palestine.

    There is no Palestinian language, no separate culture. In fact, prior to about 100 years ago, what is now Israel was described as “sparsely populated.” The economic boom that accompanied the British Mandate in 1913 to create a Jewish homeland attracted Arabs to the “Palestinian” region, which they then laid claim to on a purely religious ground. Because there is no Palestinian culture. They are indistinguishable from other Arab communities from which, in fact, most of them migrated from within the past 100 years.

    All of this fighting is because the Muslims will never accept a non-Mulsim country in the Middle East. Period. No concessions, no diplomacy, nothing will convince them to accept Israel as a Jewish state. So this is all pointless. Separate two groups when they cannot get along, or you’ll just keep wasting your time.

    http://www.science.co.il/History-Palestine.php

  105. OK, Johnson/Warren covered up JFK, the Clintons covered up Flight 800 (was there ever another spontaneous fuel tank explosion or hot tarmacs?) and Putin is covering up Flight 17.

    What’s new?

    The pilots were intelligent and went to the best schools and were brilliant and right and were better than anyone else and now they are DEAD RIGHT! They were superior and simultaneously incapable of making the correct decision. The pilot deviated (or failed to deviate away from) over a known combat zone. I have a question. What kind of pilots does Malaysian Air hire?

    Like many of the attorneys on this site, the Malaysian Air pilots were “pennywise and pound foolish.” American attorneys have flown the plane of the Founders into the ground. Those attorneys know the complexity of the discipline, precedents and case law, but they have absolutely no grasp of the effect the final law “product” was intended to have and the intent and spirit of the Preamble, Constitution and Bill of Rights, even when presented with the contextual words of the Founders literally – freedom, self-reliance and not a modicum of governmental control of business/economy or redistribution. In the end, the wrong result is produced.

    The American Founders ended up with the product of the fatally flawed mental machinations of Karl Marx after they threw off the bonds of submission to a monarch and obtained the “blessings of liberty” which are not a dictatorship of the proletariat, striking teachers with “comparable pay” for all other governmental workers, the welfare state, obamacare, complete redistribution and a government-run economy.

    The Founders lived the best example of what they wrote – freedom and self-reliance – but it has all been perverted by obsessive, compulsive, biased, arbitrary and overzealous lawsmiths.

    Just the facts, ma’am.

    Just the words of the Founders, Counselors.

    P.S. Does any one of you understand that gold-backed currency is a simple “utility” like water and electricity? Did Bernie Madoff’s relatives get you on that one?

  106. Karen, I guess you have never heard of Bedoiuns. Or you have never heard of the differences between Arabic spoken in many different dialects throughout the Mideast. I guess you will find no differences between Canadians and Americans too. So we should simply move to Canada if Mexico reconquers the US Southwest. Right?

  107. Of course I am familiar with the Bedouins, a nomadic people. What does that have to do with Palestine being a region (mostly in Jordan) rather than a state, Arab migration towards better performing economies, and the refusal to accept a Jewish state in the Middle East? Why not bring up the Pushtun?

  108. Contrary to Palestine, the US actually is a country. Wheras Palestine was a region under control of the Ottoman Empire, then the British Empire, and then split up between Jordan (Arab) and Israel (Jewish.)

  109. Karen, I suggest you go a look up some facts about Arabic and in FACT you will find that there are over 26 dialects of Arabic. There are TWO dialects for Jerusalem Palestinian Arabic, and another for West Bank or rural Arabic in that area. I guess you would not consider Canadians to be a separate culture or nationality then since we look and sound exactly alike with the slight exception of Eh.

  110. Nick Spinelli
    These are NOT SHOULDER fired missiles the Russians have provided the rebels. They are BM 21 Grad missiles fired from mobile missile launcher machinery. Have you read ANYTHING about this, old fly boy? Your arrogance is merging w/ your ignorance on this topic, Chucky, and you are looking REAL BAD! First rule of getting out of a hole, STOP DIGGING and start READING.
    =====================================================

    a BM-21 Grad is an artillery rocket launcher not a SAM.

    while this rocket launcher might work well for an aircraft on a runway or a revetment, it would be useless for one in flight.

    stop digging now.

  111. Pete,
    The latest “conventional wisdom” from the conflict zone says the missile came from the Buk System. Probably armed with either SA-11 or SA-20 missiles. The Buk System is a complete mobile system of missiles, requiring multiple vehicles. The early models were used in Vietnam, and I lost a good friend to one on 30 September 1965. His F-4 was hit by an early version, the SA-2, which was deployed in country in April 1965.

    The Buk System has a cost of about €500 million each, which converts to $675 million USD. Both the Ukraine and Russian military have them. If accident investigators are allowed to study the wreckage of the downed airliner without interference, they may be able to find pieces of the missile which would confirm what is was, and possibly where it came from. The thing about forensic science is the smart thing to do is wait for the evidence before coming to a conclusion, not a rush to judgement. Having said that, it makes sense that it was a Buk System crew that shot down the plane.

    Here is a brief video of the Buk System being demonstrated. The missiles now have an altitude range to over 70,000 feet, greater than the ones used in Vietnam. You can see this is not an operation for amateurs.

  112. yes, one radar truck feeding info to multiple launch vehicles not one guy with a stove pipe or a single truck with 40 tubes.
    as of right now they know next to nothing about what or who brought the aircraft down, yet everyone is pointing fingers and discussing (using that word loosely) what should be done about it.
    lets get the facts first and go from there.

  113. Darren, While all agree that it was a BUK system, it remains to be seen whose system it was that did the actual shootdown. My take is that it was more than likely the fascist units of the Ukrainian military who shot the plane down. They have motive, means, and opportunity. The Russians have the means, and opportunity, but they have a NEGATIVE motive for doing that. Of course, having no motive never stopped idiots in war, so one cannot completely rule out that the Russian did it either. The Russians are known for their ineptness in many realms. They had one of their most embarrassing OOPS moment in Afghanistan when they executed the President who asked them into the country in the first place. So one cannot rule them out entirely.

    I doubt that it was the pro-Russian rebels since the Russians know that once they go to them, they lose all control of the weapons. The CIA had their dumbest moment when they gave Stinger missiles to Bin Laden and his fellow fighters in Afghanistan. After the Russian left, the CIA had a buy back program to get the remaining missiles back under US control. Of course, they never did get many of them back, until TWA 800 when the Iranians returned the favor of Reagan shooting down their Airbus. So I doubt that the Russians did this one. Using FAUX news or other phony journalists with tales of admission of guilt is not proof at all. FAUX will at some point dress up a staffer in Russian uniform to say that he was the one who ordered the shooting. We already have one instant in which the news media got caught in bogus news stories when they said that the clips of Russian officers being in the Ukraine were actually in Russia. A more convincing bit of evidence will be the serial numbers from the rocket data plate. Another way to go at this would be to show that the Russians had a positive incentive to shoot down this poor plane, crew and pax. Come up with that, and you will be starting to make some sense.

  114. The problem I have with blaming it on the Russians doing this by mistake is that the missile battery would have to know the speed, and altitude of MH 17 which would clearly indicate it was not Ukrainian at all since it was so close to the border. I get upset when ATC leaves me at the high altitudes within 100 miles of my destination and I have to really dive to get down to land. So the altitude alone would indicate the plane was not going to land nearby. It would also be too low for a recon flight. The speed and altitude would indicate it was a jet, not a turboprop getting ready to drop in for resupply mission since there were no Ukrainian military in that region.

    Of course, they could have been drunk too like when a US Army 105 battery in Vietnam had a beer bash one night and thought it would be fun to fire off some rounds into the jungle. The problem was that the shells landed on a US unit that was out in the not so empty jungle and killed a bunch of GIs. So all in all, I think we will have to wait and see what the evidence is, and judge the veracity of that evidence. It is way too early to be banging the war drums as many of the folks here want to do.

  115. Pete, There is corroborative evidence that the Russian rebels shot it down, thinking it was a Ukraine cargo plane. It is not dispositive, but good corroboration @ this point. You are a loyal curmudgeon, trying to stick up for your buddy. But, dogs should not be digging their own holes like you did @ 3:30 last night. We’re back to reality, most people are now reading the facts, and not being snarky on false premises like “shoulder fired missiles.” Let’s just keep learning the facts and debate on substance. Chuck took a big step in that direction. You need to do the same. Facts should always trump emotion.

  116. It is concerning to me that Putin took possession of the black box. The plane was carrying 100 AIDS scientists to a conference.

  117. Nick Spinelli said,

    “You are on my do not read or respond list. Like others here, you’re dead to me now. I should have put you on that list a long time ago. Ciao.”

    on 1, July 17, 2014

    =======================================

    “Like others here, you’re dead to me now.” ??????

    Most people would just stop responding. What is wrong with you, Nick? Srsly.

  118. Nick Spinelli
    It is concerning to me that Putin took possession of the black box.
    ======================================

    and that’s your idea of facts. not to mention “the fact” i never said anything about shoulder fired missiles so the quotation marks unnecessary at best.

    what else was the russian crew thinking about when they fired.

    again, lets get the facts first. debating rumors won’t help anything.

  119. Putin shot down an airliner full of innocent civilians.

    The highly intelligent, well trained degreed professional airline pilot could not apply all that preparation to the situation and fatally flew into a known hazard –

    the same way the super intelligent and highly trained legal industry in America can’t grasp what was known, understood, traditional and customary in the minds of its Framers and Founders and can’t read and apply the simple English words (simple enough so that grade school students can understand it) of its founding documents such as “…shall write no law…”

    The exact same scenario of this Flight 17 transpired in the event of Flight 800 as it too was shot down.

    Bill Clinton covered up the shooting down of Flight 800 to avoid its ramifications and consequences during an election – he conducted the same cover-up then that Obama did after Benghazi which was to cover-up information that would redound to him negatively in an election.

    Can you say Pearl Harbor, Warren Report, Gulf of Tonkin, Sinking of the Maine, Flight 800, 2008 Election Of An Ineligible, Benghazi, IRS…to be continued.

  120. @squeakyfromm

    “They are ululating in glee over every jewish death.”

    So once then.

    And nothing like

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-sderot-cinema-image-shows-israelis-with-popcorn-and-chairs-cheering-as-missiles-strike-palestinian-targets-9602704.html

    Maybe you should be introduced to a mother or father burying their two year old child because a few people in their country are terrorist. Ayelet Shaked is just one more warmongering demon sanctioning indiscriminate violence for indiscriminate violence.

    Only someone who has complete lost grip of humanity would sanction that in any way shape or form as reasonable.

  121. @Chuck Stanley

    “You can see this is not an operation for amateurs.”

    They can be operated in isolation. They have their own local guidance system that targets any target that is in front of them. That is not how they are designed to be used but they have that capability. So it could easily be, and probably was, the rebels not knowing what they were doing.

  122. I wonder sometimes why in time of war, we don’t recognize that there are no true ‘good guys’. Each side thinks they are the good guys.

  123. po@minutebol

    “Fascinating how the lessons of the Holocaust are lost on those who ought to learn most from it.”

    The lessons are generally forgotten first by those attempting to make political capital from them.

    It’s a shame but there it is. I imagine gypsies are still awaiting the creation of their home state after their slaughter during world war two.

    On a broader point, Palestine was a colony in 1920 when Palestinians first started fighting for independence, like so many other colonies. It was a colony in 1947 when the West decided to colonise it afresh to cover up for the sins of the Germans and their allies without actually making them pay for it.

    They probably view the incumbents as just more colonists from the West (as most Israelis are at least from the second or third generation).

    The Israeli government are continually making political capital out of the sufferings of the Holocaust while spitting on their graves by turning the Gaza strip into their own personal Warsaw ghetto.

    Ironic, hypocritical, fascinating – it’s all those things. And it’s also a lesson in the evils of power.

    It’s a shame they don’t listen to the only Israelis with sense, and paradoxically the most religious who refuse to take up arms or support this violent approach. After all how powerful is your God when you need a gun to prove it?

  124. John
    “Under Reagan, aggressive countries could expect a swift and powerful response.”

    I don’t remember his response to 241 US soldiers being killed in the Lebanon bomb attack in 1983. Maybe you could remind me what the swift and powerful response was.

    Oh yeah. They left four months later.

  125. Nick
    ” The people Israel is fighting wants all Jews dead. The terrorists admit that. It is not debatable.”

    Unfortunately they are also killing many innocent people, who whatever they wish for, are not killing anyone. But if you are insinuating it is ok (maybe you’re not, but if you are) that people who wish you dead should be killed, what fate would you advocate Miss Shaked.

  126. NEW YORK — CNN has removed correspondent Diana Magnay from covering the Israeli-Palestinian conflict after she tweeted that Israelis who were cheering the bombing of Gaza, and who had allegedly threatened her, were “scum.”

    “After being threatened and harassed before and during a liveshot, Diana reacted angrily on Twitter,” a CNN spokeswoman said in a statement to The Huffington Post.

    The spokeswoman said Magnay has been assigned to Moscow.

    Magnay appeared on CNN Thursday from a hill overlooking the Israel-Gaza border. While she reported, Israelis could be heard near her cheering as missiles were fired at Gaza.

    After the liveshot, Magnay tweeted: “Israelis on hill above Sderot cheer as bombs land on #gaza; threaten to ‘destroy our car if I say a word wrong’. Scum.” The tweet was quickly removed, but not before it had been retweeted more than 200 times.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/cnn-diana-magnay-israel-gaza_n_5598866.html

    Apparently the truth can get you transferred.

  127. Looking for vague parallels between the Israeli situation and a relatively civilised country. Maybe someone could tell me, when the British government who suffered several devastating bomb attacks by the IRA including on the City and Canary Wharf, not to mention many that killed civilians, soldiers and police alike, didn’t start shelling Catholic areas of Belfast and Derry and routinely pull down houses?

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/jun/10/deaths-in-northern-ireland-conflict-data

    And why didn’t they build housing estates in the middle of Catholic areas? And then let the residents throw rocks at people, in fact defend the rock throwers…

  128. Glenn Greenwald: Why Did NBC Pull Veteran Reporter After He Witnessed Israeli Killing of Gaza Kids?

    “NBC is facing questions over its decision to pull its veteran news correspondent out of Gaza. Ayman Mohyeldin personally witnessed the Israeli military’s killing of four Palestinian boys on a Gaza beach Wednesday. Mohyeldin was kicking a soccer ball around with the boys just minutes before they died. He’s a veteran reporter who has placed the Gaza conflict in the context of the Israeli occupation, sparking criticism from some supporters of the Israeli offensive. Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept has revealed the decision to pull Mohyeldin from Gaza and remove him from reporting on the situation, it came from NBC executive David Verdi.”

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/glenn_greenwald_why_did_nbc_pull

  129. Referring to the creation of Israel in 1948, Meir declared: “It was not as if there was a Palestinian people in Palestine and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.” Or: “How can we return the occupied territories? There’s nobody to return them to.”

    This is the ultimate in dehumanising people whose identity you have to deny in order to justify your actions towards them. It is a modern adaptation of the doctrine of terra nullius – empty land – which English colonists invoked to rob Australia from those who had lived there for 50,000 years. Meir and Captain Cook are sister and brother under the skin.

    Her views are not unrepresentative: deputy Prime Minister Yitzhak Katzir – “We will keep them on their knees. We will follow them all over the world and kill them”; defence minister and chief of staff minister Moshe Dayan – “Jackals”; Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir – “Grasshoppers”; Prime Minister Menahem Begin – “Two-legged vermin”; defence forces chief of staff Rafael Eitan – “We need to keep Palestinians like drugged roaches in a bottle.”

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/eamonn-mccann/the-deeplying-racism-fuelling-the-israeli-onslaught-30433885.html

  130. “They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

    Are they snakes or drugged roaches in a bottle?

    Ah, who cares. They’re Jew haters!

  131. United Dreamer, I see the reports of dead children killed by Israeli missiles. It sickens my stomach. However, this is the Hamas strategy, use civilians to shield their missiles. Most of the missiles fired by Israel are strictly defensive missiles, destroying Hamas missiles, TARGETED @ Israeli citizens. They destroy the Hamas missiles in the air, no one is killed or injured. The contrast is obvious and stark. Hamas WANTS dead Palestinian children. The propaganda works w/ many people who allow emotion to rule their mind. It’s on display right here.

  132. “Hamas WANTS dead Palestinian children.”

    Therefore the Israelis did not kill them like the “snakes” or “roaches” they are.

    Right Nick?

  133. The Israelis did kill them. I’m not a nut on this subject. Hamas is having problem getting suicide bombers and missiles into Israel to kill Jewish children. They need a propaganda war. Hamas uses children to shield their missiles. Israeli missiles kill this innocent children. They have their images. You are usually a reasonable man Bob, Esq. I would love to sit down w/ you and get to the bottom of your hatred of Israel.

  134. Some people have speculated or opined on the “black box” of the downed airliner and its whereabouts. In this case, the “black box” (It’s actually orange) is irrelevant. Proper name for it is the Flight Data Recorder. All it will tell is the condition of the airplane’s systems, its altitude, heading and speed. Then the lights go out.

    The cockpit voice recorder is also going to be useless. There may be a couple of last words, and in this case if there are, it is likely to be the ones most commonly recorded in cockpits at the last moment before impact: “Oh, shit!”

    The flight data and voice recordings are useful in accident investigations where something goes wrong with the systems or there is pilot error. There is no indication at all that the present case fits either of those descriptions.

    Ergo, those who know what is and is not important in the investigation are not going to expend any heroic effort to find the FDR or CVR. The most important single thing they will be looking for, after recovery of the human remains, will be parts of the missile. Most important are parts that have serial numbers or part markings. Some news sources are saying the crash site has not been secured, so we must hope that scavengers don’t make off with something important.

  135. I don’t hate Israel Nick.

    Israel is an abstract concept incapable of exercising any will.

    I despise the right wing thugs in control of Israel who have folks like you convinced that what they’ve been doing is morally acceptable.

  136. UD,

    There were 6,000 killed in one day at Gettysburg. 7,000 in one day at Iwo Jima. 300 people died at the hands of Putin yesterday. I’m so sorry for you that you had to mourn 241 Marines. I can guarantee it was nothing more than a minor traffic accident for Ronnie. If he’d wanted 241 more Marines the next day, he would have had them signed, sealed and delivered. I don’t want to burst your bubble but Marines are deployed to die. You don’t make a lot of personal plans when you’re assaulting a beach. I heard it once and couldn’t believe a relative mouthed the words, “a career in the military.” That sure as hell is no military I was in. Maybe his career was as a cook.

    There sure is some screwball thinking in the world, huh? And it’s completely screwball to think the event you referred to affected anything significant. Good for you. You wasted some time saying something stupid.

  137. The Holocaust is heard constantly in America. Ever ask yourself, why?

    Why don’t we hear about those poor souls in “Apocalypto?” They bent them over, cut their hearts out and rolled their bodies down from the top of their pyramids. That would be pretty bad. But western civilization isn’t bombarded with accounts of those atrocities on a daily basis. Why is that?

    Weren’t the Stalinist Russians, Mao’s Revolutionaries, WWII Japanese all mass, holocaust-like murderers? Wasn’t there an equivalent Armenian genocide? Is Armenia the 51st state?

    Israel has a very good PR firm, huh?

    Alternatively, Americans are really, really stupid. Maybe that’s what Bernie Madoff discovered.

    What is the glue that binds Israel to the American checkbook? Maybe it’s those pesky Christians who cannot be disabused of their belief in everlasting life. It’s the same snake oil that Bernie Madoff was selling.

  138. @Nick
    “If we had terrorists lobbing missiles @ Buffalo, Rochester, NY from just over the Canadian border, most all US citizens would be calling for carpet bombing.”

    I’m sure they would but I would bet my house on it not happening.

  139. @Nick
    “Hamas uses children to shield their missiles. Israeli missiles kill this innocent children. ”

    Interesting use of language. Allow me to change it slightly. Hamas uses children to shield their missiles. Israelis (more specifically the IDF) use missiles to kill their children.

    Although maybe you are suggesting that they were unguided which seems plausible. In such a case I tend toward “indiscriminate shelling” as a far more economical use of words and a far more accurate description.

    It would explain why they killed four children on a beach at least. I’m guessing there were no shells hidden in their football. Can’t be too careful I guess.

  140. @Nick
    “Hamas WANTS dead Palestinian children. The propaganda works w/ many people who allow emotion to rule their mind. It’s on display right here.”

    I don’t know what they want. I suspect they want their rockets not to be destroyed or discovered. Regardless, as by far the more powerful of adversaries you have the luxury of controlled response. Just as Britain suffered some two thousand or so fatalities against the IRA, they didn’t go shelling churches because a rebel Priest held them in a church basement, nor did they invade Ireland because the IRA routinely stashed weapons there.

    Israel created this mess when they created fortress Gaza – they wanted to make a ghetto where they could be sure casualties would only be Muslim Palestinians. They deliberately created a Muslim ghetto. And it did what the extremists wanted to do. It gave them a reason to exploit the smallest fears for the most violent response knowing there would be minimal Jewish casualties.

    Luckily there is at least some Western pressure even if its only coming from the media.

  141. Anyway am off. Remember people are just people whatever their faith or skin colour or language, they bleed and suffer like we all do. And we diminish ourselves if we forget that. Peace.

  142. Bob, Esq. I commented in some thread that many of the US liberals who revered Israel when Begin and other liberals ran governed it, now hate the conservatives, voted in by fellow Israeli’s. Do you know the history of Begin? He was a great leader. But, he was prior to that a TOUGH soldier and has much blood on his hands. As Mespo says, there are no white hats here. Thanks for you forthright and direct answer. Not many people here are so honest and forthright as you. It is one reason you are a valuable commenter.

  143. Speaking of honesty…

    “The idea that Israel is responding to a hail of rockets out of a clear blue sky takes “narrative framing” beyond the realm of fantasy. In fact, after the deal that ended Israel’s last assault on Gaza in 2012, rocketing from Gaza fell to its lowest level for 12 years.

    The latest violence is supposed to have been triggered by the kidnapping and killing of three Israeli teenagers in the occupied West Bank in June, for which Hamas denied responsibility. But its origin clearly lies in the collapse of US-sponsored negotiations for a final settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the spring.

    That was followed by the formation of a “national reconciliation” government by the Fatah and Hamas movements, whose division has been a mainstay of Israeli and US policy. Israeli incursions and killings were then stepped up, including attacks on Palestinian civilians by armed West Bank settlers. In May, two Palestinian teenagers were shot dead by the Israeli army with barely a flicker of interest outside the country.

    It’s now clear the Israeli government knew from the start that its own kidnapped teenagers had been killed within hours. But the news was suppressed while a #BringBackOurBoys campaign was drummed up and a sweeping crackdown launched against Hamas throughout the West Bank.

    Over 500 activists were arrested and more than half a dozen killed – along with a Palestinian teenager burned to death by settlers. Binyamin Netanyahu’s aim was evidently to signal that whatever deal Hamas had signed with Mahmoud Abbas would never be accepted by Israel.

    Gaza had nothing to do with the kidnapping, but Israeli attacks were also launched on the strip and Hamas activists killed. It was those killings and the West Bank campaign that led to Hamas resuming its rocket attacks – and in turn to Israel’s devastating bombardment.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/16/gaza-shameful-injustice-israel-attacks-occupied-people

  144. How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza
    Kidnap, Crackdown, Mutual Missteps and a Hail of Rockets

    Excerpt:

    Once the boys’ disappearance was known, troops began a massive, 18-day search-and-rescue operation, entering thousands of homes, arresting and interrogating hundreds of individuals, racing against the clock. Only on July 1, after the boys’ bodies were found, did the truth come out: The government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas’ West Bank operations.

    The initial evidence was the recording of victim Gilad Shaer’s desperate cellphone call to Moked 100, Israel’s 911. When the tape reached the security services the next morning — neglected for hours by Moked 100 staff — the teen was heard whispering “They’ve kidnapped me” (“hatfu oti”) followed by shouts of “Heads down,” then gunfire, two groans, more shots, then singing in Arabic. That evening searchers found the kidnappers’ abandoned, torched Hyundai, with eight bullet holes and the boys’ DNA. There was no doubt.

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately placed a gag order on the deaths. Journalists who heard rumors were told the Shin Bet wanted the gag order to aid the search. For public consumption, the official word was that Israel was “acting on the assumption that they’re alive.” It was, simply put, a lie.

    Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren’t acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas’ Hebron branch — more a crime family than a clandestine organization — had a history of acting without the leaders’ knowledge, sometimes against their interests. Yet Netanyahu repeatedly insisted Hamas was responsible for the crime and would pay for it.

    This put him in a ticklish position. His rhetoric raised expectations that after demolishing Hamas in the West Bank he would proceed to Gaza. Hamas in Gaza began preparing for it. The Israeli right — settler leaders, hardliners in his own party — began demanding it.

    But Netanyahu had no such intention. The last attack on Gaza, the eight-day Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, targeted Hamas leaders and taught a sobering lesson. Hamas hadn’t fired a single rocket since, and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013. Neither side had any desire to end the détente. Besides, whatever might replace Hamas in Gaza could only be worse.

    The kidnapping and crackdown upset the balance. In Israel, grief and anger over the boys’ disappearance grew steadily as the fabricated mystery stretched into a second and third week. Rallies and prayer meetings were held across the country and in Jewish communities around the world. The mothers were constantly on television. One addressed the United Nations in Geneva to plead for her son’s return. Jews everywhere were in anguish over the unceasing threat of barbaric Arab terror plaguing Israel.

    This, too, was misleading. The last seven years have been the most tranquil in Israel’s history. Terror attacks are a fraction of the level during the nightmare intifada years — just six deaths in all of 2013. But few notice. The staged agony of the kidnap search created, probably unintentionally, what amounts to a mass, worldwide attack of post-traumatic stress flashback.

    When the bodies were finally found, Israelis’ anger exploded into calls for revenge, street riots and, finally, murder.

    Amid the rising tension, cabinet meetings in Jerusalem turned into shouting matches. Ministers on the right demanded the army reoccupy Gaza and destroy Hamas. Netanyahu replied, backed by the army and liberal ministers, that the response must be measured and careful. It was an unaccustomed and plainly uncomfortable role for him. He was caught between his pragmatic and ideological impulses.

    In Gaza, leaders went underground. Rocket enforcement squads stopped functioning and jihadi rocket firing spiked. Terror squads began preparing to counterattack Israel through tunnels. One tunnel exploded on June 19 in an apparent work accident, killing five Hamas gunmen, convincing some in Gaza that the Israeli assault had begun while reinforcing Israeli fears that Hamas was plotting terror all along.

    On June 29, an Israeli air attack on a rocket squad killed a Hamas operative. Hamas protested. The next day it unleashed a rocket barrage, its first since 2012. The cease-fire was over. Israel was forced to retaliate for the rockets with air raids. Hamas retaliated for the raids with more rockets. And so on. Finally Israel began calling up reserves on July 8 and preparing for what, as Moti Almoz told Army Radio, “the political echelon instructed.”

    http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all

  145. A US retired military said on CNN Brooke Shields show that there is a way to determine the culprit in this w/o the black box or much physical evidence. It is reported our spy satellites picked up the radar trail from the SAM rocket fired. This expert said all SAM systems have a unique radar trail, akin to a fingerprint. We have the data on the radar trail, we can match it w/ the unit. This info was presented because there is raw footage shot yesterday from the area of the downing. The Buk SAM unit was missing one missile. Very good chance this unit is now secured in the Soviet Union, err Russia. Our President stated unequivocally today the missile was fired form an area controlled by Russian rebels. He was otherwise lackluster and obviously uncomfortable w/ conflict. Ironically, Samantha Powers, was very tough @ the UN. Conservatives didn’t want her approved as UN rep but she showed more balls than Obama. She laid out the evidence. Powers did not have the surveillance photos like the historical presentation given by Adlai Stevenson during the Cuban Missile Crisis. But, she laid out the facts as we know them eloquently and forcefully. As she stated, “Russia can end this!”

    Both Powers and the military guy stated the Buk’s require extensive training. The military guy said 6 months. I stated last night there have been intelligence reports that Putin’s KGB retired buddies and other operatives are supplying sophisticated hardware, training and operating these systems. This is akin to our CIA operatives in covert operations. Putin’s fingerprints, as well as the Buk Launchers fingerprints are on this act of war. I always sorta liked Samantha Powers. She’s more liberal than I but she’s straight and tough. Not false politician tough, but REALLY tough, as a person. You can see it in her demeanor and her mass of red hair! I always like redheads. She’s a big winner in this tragedy. Obama is in over his head.

  146. United Dreamer, The Israel’s warn before bombing. They call the phone#’s in the building and then fire a warning shot, a concussion bomb @ the top of the building. If you didn’t get the phone call there is no missing the warning shot. Even deaf people can feel the concussion. There is collateral damage, this is war. Women and children die in war. That’s why it’s hell.

  147. Nick, are you Jewish? Because the intensity I find in your support of Israel is usually found only in hard core Zionists! I do hope so, for it would make some sense. My brother in law fancies himself an humanist, until it comes to Israel and the Palestinians. Of course, in order to be such a staunch Zionist and see nothing wrong with Israeli policies, he had to convince himself of the lessened value of Palestinians lives, to the point of saying tropes such as they are happier under Israeli occupation.
    At least you being Jewish would somehow explain your fervor, and your reluctance to see what people, Jewish people both in the diaspora and in Israel have seen ages ago and fighting against.
    Just to address your last point, and please respond specifically, not generally: If you are called by the IDF, who know your number and name in order to text or call, don’t they know who are you are? And if they do, and warn you, isn’t it because you are not Hamas? And if you are not Hamas, who they supposedly are at war against, why bomb your house?
    We all have seen the recent video where the roof knock happened, and 57 seconds later, the house was obliterated! How do you explain the shelling of the 4 kids on the beach?
    Where have you put your heart? What kind of human being are you, Nick?
    You can justify 1000 vs 13 as collateral damage? 200 to 1 as collateral damages?! Thank God that for every one of you, there is a Bob, a United Dreamer, a John and a Max. I am trying not to wish you to one day experience what the Palestinians have been, for that would be evil of me.

  148. @uniteddreemer

    Huh? Lost my humanity??? Those innocent little gazans voted in hamas, and sit there with their thumbs up their rear ends while missiles are fired at innocent Israeli children. I ‘d put the sorry Gazan sob’s on a Trail of Tears all the way to Syria or Iraq and make them eat bacon MREs all the way there.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  149. I doubt any nation would sit idle while hundreds of rockets rained down on their soil and their cities. The PA in the West Bank, (Fatah) doesn’t seem to be launching these rockets. It is an action against Hamas.

  150. Po, Italian/Irish. But that combo must be as bad as those Jew bast@rds. Right? I have said twice, “There are no white hats” a line I stole from mespo. I’m disturbed by the hatred for Israel and Jews. It’s getting worse. I understand history. There are hundreds of millions of people that want them exterminated. I try to walk in people’s shoes and not let emotion rule my brain. I am not a Zionist. I am a student of history.

  151. Being short sighted is indeed a disease, to reduce the whole Palestinian-Israeli issues to rockets raining down on Israel is to be quite myopic historically and intellectually. Why are these rockets raining down on Israel? That is the question to answer because nothing exists in a vacuum, the rockets are merely a symptom, not the cause. It is indeed easier to overlook the cause and focus on the symptoms, but that is to be intellectually and morally lazy.

    I’ll start with this given: In the best of worlds, Hamas would not exist. In this world however, it is a necessary counter to the balance of power. Israel has all of it, Palestinians none of it. The Palestinian Authority is the superintendent of the Israeli occupation, recipient of US aid and thus bound to the attached leash (and yes it is occupation when one party controls access in and out a territory, to its water, natural resources and has a say in every single aspect of the life of a people), and Hamas, to the Palestinians, is the only thing stopping the beast of settlement building from gobbling up the remaining land. This current flare up happened when Israel accused Hamas of kidnapping three Israeli teenagers who were later found dead, which Hamas denies. A gag order was issued that stopped the media from reporting the already known murder, while Israel ran a propaganda campaign that gave it public and political support to go after Hamas and torpedo its reconciliation with Fatah. Settler attacks and IDF incursions and shooting of Palestinians were ratcheted up, culminating into the shooting death of two unarmed Palestinian teenagers.

    These are the facts:

    1-Israel did withdraw from Gaza, but still controls access from two points alongside its borders and from a third across the sea, limiting how far Palestinian fishermen can reach, and routinely shooting and killing them way within the arbitrary line. Egypt controls the fourth access point. Gaza is literally an open box, and Israel’s shelling of it is akin to shooting fish in a barrel. Palestinians can surely leave the areas to be bombed, and go…where?

    2- Israel does not seek to limit civilian casualties, it actually relies on those as a means of pressure against Hamas. Casualties of its campaigns hover around 70% civilians, most of whom women and children. Its claim to be discriminating in its mass scale shelling is undermined by its routine bombing of hospitals, schools and news agencies. If Israel knows the name and occupation of the person it texted, offering 5 minutes to evacuate his house for it to be bombed, shouldn’t it know that this doctor, his wife and children, are civilians?

    3- Israel punishes Palestinians on a whim by restricting commerce, travel, and electricity as happened recently when Hamas and Fatah announced a reunion. Medical supplies, food, building materials, educational supplies and fuel, all must come through Israeli checkpoints or smuggled in.

    4- Israel can arrest any Palestinian under the claim he is Hamas affiliated and lock him up for decades without access to any legal system. When released, Israel can and does round them up right back and lock them back up, as were hundreds of Palestinians under the terms of the last ceasefire.

    5- Israel’s occupation and practice of individual and communal punishment has been declared and confirmed to be against all international laws. Israel has found however that accusing those international bodies of antisemitism a much more effective answer.

    6- Although many Jews both in the diaspora and in Israel are against the religious and political Zionism that builds itself at the expense of the Palestinians, extremes political and religious gamesmanship has turned Israeli society into one that supports no conversation nor dissent, where lawmakers routinely and openly demonize Arabs and Palestinians and call for their wholesale destruction.
    Were this not so sad, one could find some measure of irony in that the lessons of the Holocaust are lost on those who should have been its custodians.

  152. And Nick, if you are a student of history, you sure aren’t a good student. Any real student of history will tell you that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is unsustainable. It cannot kill them all, and if it manages to take over all the land, it will thereby blow up its aim to keep its Jewish character.
    We are all disturbed by any hatred towards anyone, and it fascinates me that in the process of defending and protecting one, you are demonizing the other, which is exactly what caused the one to be what it is right now. The French have a saying that you cannot me more royalist than the king. In your asking Bob why he hates Israel,you have dismissed all the Jews around the globe who rebel against Zionism, who care for Israel and Know that the safest thing, the better thing for them all individually and communally is to stand up for Palestine. Your whole argument is emotional, so to conclude it with a claim of rationality is pretty funny, or sad, not sure which yet.

  153. Dr. Joep Lange, considered the best expert in fighting AIDS was on the Malaysian jet shot down yesterday.

  154. Po, Netanyahu has the support of Jews in Israel. Those are his constituents. It’s easy to be a liberal Jew on the upper west side of Manhattan. Their opinion means nothing since they don’t live in Israel. I taught high school history. What are your credentials? What’s your profession?

  155. randyjet – from the Palestinians I’ve known, it’s an accent, with some European and Hebrew words mixed in. It is not a separate language, in which other Arabs could not understand them.

    No one says, “I speak Palestinian.” It’s, “I speak Arabic.”

    Now, yallah, do you understand that Palestine was a region, composed mostly of Jordan? As opposed to, say, Canada, which IS a country? And that prior to the British Mandate of 1913 it was surveyed as sparsely populated?

  156. Thanks Darren.

    BTW, you may want to read those two articles I posted links to.

    And then ask yourself who precipitated the breaking of the 2 year old cease fire.

  157. My analysis of all things foreign:

    Unless you have a clear moral actor — or one substantially so — any foreign policy question has to be analyzed from our national interests. It is in our interest to promote peace in that area of the world due to the confluence of natural resources there. If we can’t have peace we must have a “winner.” Internecine warfare benefits no one and especially the civilian casualties. To get a winner, we have to provide assistance of know-how and material. To decide upon whom to bestow our largess we have to project what the “winner” will do with his victory. If he will use it to foster hegemony throughout the region thus destabilizing it, we can’t be on his side. Whom do you think is most likely to destabilize the region — Hamas or Israel? To me the answer is obvious.

  158. Imagine if the Russian separatists used IDF’s stock excuses for “accidentally” killing innocent civilians as its excuse for the tragedy of MH 17.

    It would turn the U.N. on its head.

  159. Mark,

    Can you imagine the separatists, or Russia for that matter, demanding the same moral favoritism that the world shows Israel for such “accidents”?

  160. Mark,

    The Liberty had a much more intentional flavor to it.

    No, this is a true accident seeking the moral cover the world affords Israel for its ‘accidental’ casualties.

    Not to mention that Russia sees Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians the same way Jimmy Carter does; i.e. as apartheid.

    Talk about must see tv.

  161. Karen S I suggest you go to any web site that has anything about Arabic, and you will find that most Arabic speakers cannot understand the local dialects. Palestine was not so sparsely populated either, There were millions of Palestinians in what is now Israel, and the forebears of todays Hamas were living in their own hope Main street teaching .

  162. People need to remember that Israel DID shoot down a Libyan jetliner over the Sinai when Israel still had it. That was a deliberate attack by an Israeli fighter in daylight, and on the order of Moshe Dayan. It was crewed by a French crew that was flying the plane to Saudi for the hajis.

  163. UD,

    There is no context in the reference to the singular, unfortunate event of the bombing deaths of 241 Beirut Marines. Reagan was historically, globally successful despite your miniscule gnat. Your frivolous antics have no credibility.

    Mes,

    Please edify me. When is hegemony destabilizing?

  164. Randyjet,

    Did you catch this interview with Stephen Cohen on Democracy Now?

    Excerpt:

    STEPHEN COHEN: Sanctions are beside the point. Obviously they’ll cause economic pain, possibly equally to Europe, which doesn’t want them, didn’t want them. Major American corporations took out ads in major American newspapers before Obama did this, asking Obama not to do it. When you resort to sanctions, it means you have no policy. You have an attitude. And the anti-Putin attitude in Washington is driving American policy.

    Let me mention, because I think it’s relevant to what you’re covering here, your very, very powerful segments before I came on today about what’s going on in Gaza, the pounding of these cities, the defenselessness of ordinary people. The same thing has been happening in East Ukrainian cities—bombing, shelling, mortaring by the Kiev government—whatever we think of that government. But that government is backed 150 percent by the White House. Every day, the White House and the State Department approve of what Kiev’s been doing. We don’t know how many innocent civilians, women and children, have died. We know there’s probably several hundred thousand refugees that have run from these cities. The cities are Donetsk, Luhansk, Kramatorsk, Slovyansk—a whole series of cities whose names are not familiar to Americans. The fact is, Americans know nothing about this. We know something about what’s happening in Gaza, and there’s a division of opinion in the United States: The Israelis should do this, the Israelis should not do this. But we know there are victims: We see them. Sometimes the mainstream media yanks a reporter, as you just showed, who shows it too vividly, because it offends the perception of what’s right or wrong. But we are not shown anything about what’s happened in these Ukrainian cities, these eastern Ukrainian cities.

    Why is that important? Because this airliner, this shootdown, took place in that context. The American media says it must have been the bad guys—that is, the rebels—because they’ve shot down other airplanes. This is true, but the airplanes they’ve been shooting down are Ukraine’s military warplanes that have come to bomb the women and children of these cities. We don’t know that.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/stephen_cohen_downed_malaysian_plane_raises

    I’m just learning about the Odessa Massacre now.

    Since this is all first impression for me, I was wondering what your take is on all this.

  165. Mike Appleton,

    I can’t recommend this article strongly enough.

    I’m incredibly curious to hear your thoughts on this; since I’m completely dumbfounded.

    The Silence of American Hawks About Kiev’s Atrocities
    The regime has repeatedly carried out artillery and air attacks on city centers, creating a humanitarian catastrophe—which is all but ignored by the US political-media establishment.

    Editor’s note: This article was updated on July 7 and July 17.

    For months, the US-backed regime in Kiev has been committing atrocities against its own citizens in southeastern Ukraine, regions heavily populated by Russian-speaking Ukrainians and ethnic Russians. While victimizing a growing number of innocent people, including children, and degrading America’s reputation, these military assaults on cities, captured on video, are generating intense pressure in Russia on President Vladimir Putin to “save our compatriots.” Both the atrocities and the pressure on Putin have increased even more since July 1, when Kiev, after a brief cease-fire, intensified its artillery and air attacks on eastern cities defenseless against such weapons.

    The reaction of the Obama administration—as well as the new cold-war hawks in Congress and in the establishment media—has been twofold: silence interrupted only by occasional statements excusing and thus encouraging more atrocities by Kiev. Very few Americans (notably, the scholar Gordon Hahn) have protested this shameful complicity. We may honorably disagree about the causes and resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, the worst US-Russian confrontation in decades, but not about deeds that have risen to the level of war crimes.
    * * *
    (Continued)

    http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities#

  166. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/john-kerry-israel_n_5603389.html ” U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry sounded exasperated during a candid moment between interviews on Sunday as he discussed the ongoing conflict in Gaza with an off-camera aide, apparently unaware he was still being recorded.

    “It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation. It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation,” Kerry said to the aide. “We’ve got to get over there … I think, John, we ought to go tonight. I think it’s crazy to be sitting around.” “

  167. There are times when it is bad to be an isolationist, and there are times when it is imperative. Back in the days when I was working up to 100+ hours a week, a very wise friend said to me, “If you don’t stop looking out for everyone else before you look out for yourself, you are going to die young. You cannot save everyone from themselves.”

    We cannot save the world. If someone wants to smoke, you cannot force them to quit. They have to want to stop. If someone wants to drink, you can’t force them to stop…the must want to stop drinking.

    I had a friend who was a psychiatrist, and a Muslim. Not the radical kind, but a really laid back guy, originally from Syria. One day my (then teenage) daughter asked him the “Rodney King question.” She asked, “Why do they keep fighting over there, why can’t they sit down and talk it out?”

    He patted her on the shoulder and replied, gently, “They have been fighting like that for three thousand years or more. It’s a way of life in that part of the world. No outside country is ever going to go in and make them stop.” He went on to explain to her that cultural habits built over three millennia will not change in a decade of outside intervention.

    If you want the real skinny on whether to fight somewhere, the last person to ask is a General, a politician, or a chickenhawk pundit. The ones to ask are the people who actually have been there and done that: the soldier, sailor, Marine or airman who left blood on foreign soil. Here are a few of CWO Wright’s thoughts. He says is far better than I can:

    An Eye For An Eye In The Country Of The Blind

  168. Bob, I have been a big fan of Prof Cohen since I first saw him on TV as a commentator back during Reagan;s time. Whatever he says about Russia, and eastern Europe is my opinion as well since he has the intimate knowledge and concern for the truth that I trust without reservation. I have driven around eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in 1984, so I am somewhat familiar with the area, but I am not fluent in Russian but I do know how to get information. I also had some friends who were experts in the area and who did speak the languages.

    The list of aviation shoot downs omits the time in 2001 when the Ukrainians shot down a Russian airliner and killed 78 Russian civilians. According to some here, that is an act of war. If so, I think the Russians should have invaded the Ukraine in retaliation if these people are serious. Of course, in the western media, Serbs, Russians, Iranians,Libyans and Cubans are legal targets and killing them is of no great consequence when they die as a result of military actions and shooting down their aircraft.

  169. randyjet: “Bob, I have been a big fan of Prof Cohen since I first saw him on TV as a commentator back during Reagan;s time. Whatever he says about Russia, and eastern Europe is my opinion as well since he has the intimate knowledge and concern for the truth that I trust without reservation.”

    Randyjet,

    I was afraid you were going to say something like that; since it was my initial reaction to him, i.e. being truthful, as well.

    Thus I have to ask what you thought of his latest article that I posted above.

    http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities#

    It left me dumbfounded.

    It completely changes the context of the shoot-down. COMPLETELY.

  170. Bob, If you have read my posts on this subject here, it turns out that Cohen backs up what I was saying. I rather liked his articles since I had not read them before. Of course, he is banned from mainstream media since he does not join the propaganda team and tells the truth. That is something that the US mass media will not touch. Of course, Nick, and all the rightwing hawks hate him for the same reasons. I am going to have to get and read his latest book too.

  171. Randyjet,

    What struck me about what Cohen was saying on CNN and Democracy Now was a context behind the shoot down that has been completely ignored.

    I had no idea that Eastern Ukraine was an air war zone since July 1; I had no idea that Kiev was conducting air-attacks on cities in the area where MH 17 was shot down; I had no idea Putin was facing pressure from within to set up a no-fly zone in the area to protect the civilians being bombed….

    None of this information is being discussed in connection with the shoot down of MH 17.

  172. It is not surprising at all since the US media refuses to tell the truth about the fascist coup that ran Yanukovych out of office. They also refuse to acknowledge the fact that the fascists have control of the military, and police. The BBC had a few good interviews with the thugs on the street and they looked, acted, and stated that they are fascists and are quite proud of it. Yet the US media is silent and remains silent about these thugs. Then if you read some other sources, they reveal that the regular Ukrainian army troops have not been as enthusiastic about killing all Russians they encounter, so they have set up new brigades made up of only fascists who DO like murdering innocent people because of their ethnic background. My best guess is that it was one of these new special units that got trained and had access to the BUK anti-aircraft missile battery. I doubt the President of the Ukraine ordered it or even knew about it. I doubt he does much more than sign the paychecks if he has that much control.

  173. @Carlyle Moulton – I’d say ‘exactly.’ There are people saying “what differentiates her from Hitler.” That’s easy. Jews weren’t bombing German stores for 60 years before Hitler initiated the Holocaust. A better question would have been “what makes her any different from Hamas?” And the answer, of course, is; nothing.

  174. Dear President Obama and Secretary Kerry:
    I have a solution for the problem of all those Central American children at the southern border. Since they are escaping gang violence, we should send our military to El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras, and kill all of the gang members.
    We should blow up their houses, completely destroy the neighborhoods they live in, kill or arrest everyone in their families and everyone they know and put a blockade completely around their countries.
    We will call in air strikes on their hospitals, schools and infrastructure…and we will tell everyone they were “surgical” strikes and the gangs were using the children as human shields. That way they won’t get any food or water or electricity unless we let them have it.
    We can destroy their economies and break their will. Sure a lot of innocent people will be killed…collateral damage….and we will just tell the international community it wasn’t us or it was an accident….everyone knows WE don’t target innocent civilians…
    Those gang members keep causing children to illegally cross our border and we have every right to protect our country……
    While we are at it, this would also be a good protocol for what to do about those school shooters like Adam Lanza who killed all those kids at Sandy Hook Elementary. We should kill all of his family and blow up all of their houses….in fact we should destroy all the towns they live in and then use the land to build high-end homes for immigrants.
    Of course we would have to set up military check points to keep the locals under control and away from the new settlements, and we would have to build new roads just for the immigrants and walls to protect them, but we can afford to do that if we stop any municipal funds from going to the locals.

    What?
    What do you mean we can’t do that?
    This is exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinians with your blessing and encouragement… financed by the American taxpayers….. If it is OK for Israel to do that, why isn’t it OK for us?
    You keep saying the Israelis have every right to “defend” their country….
    ….so do we…..

  175. Jake You have to be kidding me to equate illegals with 2,000 rockets being shot into Israel! I guess you DO agree with some of the rightwing nuts who view the illegals in that light! By the way, Hamas has brought this on itself, and I ask you WHY if Hamas could construct so many smuggling tunnels that they could not build civil defense shelters using a small part of those resources? The answer which Hamas has clearly stated is to use their civilians as shields for their weapons. So your complaint needs to be to Hamas since it is THEY who are committing war crimes by using civilians as protection for their weapons. Sorry, only the ignorant and hopelessly biased will buy your crocodile tears.

  176. randy,

    I see you are using the same talking points that were generated as part of the Israel Project (http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/jebreal-against-palestinians.html#comment-280632) This is all part of the Zionist propaganda that the weak minded have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

    It is always about the rockets that are being fired into poor Israel…what bullshit!

    The truth is that Israel had already killed several Palestinians before the rockets ever started. And then when the three illegal settlers were killed, they arrested and tortured hundreds of innocent Palestinians…and that is when the rockets started.

    Anyone with a brain already knows that Hamas is not the problem; 7 decades of Israeli brutality and opression is.

    And genius….everyone who read my post except you, realized it was sarcasm to make the point that what Israel is doing is illegal, immoral and should not be supported by the US government.

    If you want to join the ranks of the informed…check out this FB page:

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miko-Peled/141707482508655

  177. Israeli Knesset member Ayelet Shaked is a vile and contemptible woman who has fallen hook line and sinker for the agitprop disseminated by the Israeli government attempting to dehumanize the Palestinian people.

  178. God created us all. Once you dehumanize your sister or brother, you have dehumanized yourself. You think you can murder people but it’s just an illusion. It does not empower or grant control.

    We’re all connected through God. Our souls are eternal as is God. Creating separation between yourself and any other human being by deeming yourself superior and “them” inferior is judging elements of God’s creation as inferior, It only serves to distance yourself from your creator. How can the created have the arrogance to find/judge God’s creation wanting?

    As long as both sides are more interested in justifying their own right and the other’s wrong both sides are doomed to bring each other down together. It’s up to both; not that if only Palestinians did this or if Israel did that this would stop. Both must truly decide enough is enough and decide together to cooperate. Until then no peace can happen.

  179. Fortunately cooler heads than hers prevailed during the Cuban Missile Crisis, otherwise we would not be enjoying this conversation. Israeli voters should seriously think if she should represent their nation on the world stage or have a finger on Israel’s nuclear trigger.

  180. […] Za vsakim teroristom se skriva ducat mož in žena, brez katerih ne bi bili vpleteni v terorizem. Vsi so naši sovražniki in njihova kri bo na njihovih lastnih glavah. To vključuje tudi matere mučenikov, ki jih v pekel pošiljajo s cvetjem in poljubi. Slediti bi morale svojim sinovom in nič ne bi bilo pravičneje. Izginiti morajo, tako kot morajo izginiti njihovi domovi, v katerih so vzgojile kače. Sicer se bo izleglo še več kač. (vir) […]

  181. I used google. It appears that she did NOT say this. 1. The alleged translation itself is faulty and does not say in English what has been reported above. 2. It is a 12 year old facebook post in which she quotes a reporter.

  182. […] or “spaciocide” by Israeli and Palestinian scholars such as Baruch Kimmerling and Sari Hanafi, have become so intense that one can no longer take such an accusation off the […]

  183. Yes Jonathan, protests did erupt on all sides. However ONE side celebrated the triple kidnapping with sadistic glee, shoved it in the faces of the others and posted celebratory remarks on their Official websites and facebook pages.

    THAT is the difference. And until you address the societal differences you will remain forever ignorant of why the conflict persists.

  184. There are some classes in Iran and the personnel must take part in these classes. The clerics and Mullas teach people to kiss the infidel and the people of USA and Europe and to rape their women and it is completely OK according to the Islam. Stop Islam in Iran and see a world peace again

  185. There are some classes in Iran and the personnel must take part in these classes. The clerics and Mullas teach people to kill the infidel and the people of USA and Europe and to rape their women and it is completely OK according to the Islam. Stop Islam in Iran and see a world peace again

  186. ….and then there’s the mission of ISIS.’ Mercy killings’, for those who find the conversion to the ISIS Islamic view insufferable..

  187. It’s easy to understand DKW’s wrath. Impossible to support what he writes. What has yet to be affirmed by the Islam at large is whether or not the atrocities perpetrated by those aberrations of humanity who war in the name of Allah, in fact speak to the faith as it is written and taught. Was Mohammed, in fact, a butcher and rapist in his own right, or are his teachings being warped and subverted to achieve twisted ends? Presently, the silence of the majority is deafening. This from a historical perspective, makes them as complicit as the German peoples under the Nazis, the Japanese during the first half of the 20th century, and all others whom, across the panorama of history, allowed evil to prevail in the name of a ‘higher power’.

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