With torture and detainees, Attorney General Michael Mukasey has never been viewed as much of a whoopee cushion. However, while speaking at the London School of Economics, Mukasey seemed to tell give a humorous example that seemed to put the Bush administration in the role of the sadist speaking to the al Qaeda masochist.
The whole point of the Mukasey statement was to explain that he really didn’t want to execute these individuals. However, he would never oppose execution based on the fact that they have been denied international or domestic rights of due process. Nor because they were tortured or denied access to witnesses and evidence. It is only because they would want death and we don’t want to make them happy.
“Because many of them want to be martyrs and it’s kind of like the conversation, you know, between the sadist and the masochist. The masochist says hit me and the sadist says no, so I am kind of hoping they don’t get it.”
What is most interesting about this statement is that the masochists are clearly the detainees which would make the sadist, President Bush. Now, that’s funny. He’s here ’till Thursday.
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Hi Vincent,
You presented an excellent analysis! A lot of thought went into it. Boy do we ever, “have considerable work ahead of us”.
Jill
As is quite often the case – a fascinating discussion.
One thing though, that I fear has crept into our lexicon, is a distortion of Conservatism and Liberalism. First, the neo-conservative propaganda machine and it’s broadcast Czar, Roger Ailles, took advantage of a most compliant Bill Clinton, and used his dalliances and his propensity for womanizing as the basis to build an extreme Right-wing broadcast monopoly. During its construction, they re-defined the word ‘liberal’ and converted it into a pejorative that essentially translates into lawlessness or anarchy. Continuously bombarding the airwaves – and with the corporate media in attendance – they took advantage and during the period of singular Republican control – they implied that Conservatism, Republicanism and Patriotism were etymological siblings. This was the coup that took over the Republican Party and gave birth to Nation within a Nation.
Liberals and Conservatives both suffered and the dialog between them was replaced with continuous propaganda and further rendered the conversation moot and mute; only to be replaced with an abhorrent and continuous beating of war drums until the whole of America was thirsty for retaliation on a grand scale – irrespective of the target – so long as they looked like the enemy that the neo-conservatives had long dreamed of exterminating. Most of America was sufficiently frightened and believed that our leaders, despite philosophical differences, had America’s safety in mind. Then we started to do the Math. The one’s that knew better were drowned out by Patriotic cheering and fist pumping.
Perhaps these words Conservative and Liberal are actually gone for now, but it is clear that the infection has been most effective. Two prominent Democrats, Liberals, Progressives – Shumer and Feinstein were instrumental in the confirmation of Mukasey as USAG.
It seems that we Americans – have considerable work ahead of us.
Mespo thank you for being open to what I said. Equally I am open to what you and rafflaw are saying. I hear many conservatives say they feel the administration has nothing to do with conservatism in any sense of the word. I will never defend any congressperson,
Republican or Democrat who let or continues to let this administration break the law and engage in all types of reprehensible behavior. That is appalling to me. I am ashamed of the many liberals (and conservatives) in congress who have let this go on, over and over again. Yet I would describe myself as a flaming liberal. So that might be how people like Neal Katayl, who has gone to the mat for detainees in the supreme court, may feel about staying conservative or conservative leaning. Maybe I shouldn’t call myself a liberal and they souldn’t call themselves conservative anymore. I’m not joking about that. But the truth is I still feel that I hold liberal values.
Jill and Mespo,
I agree that not all conservatives are advocates of the Bush/Cheney crowd, but how do you explain the Republican Congress prior to 2006? They did the same thing that Mukasey is doing. They put their collective heads in the sand and would not allow any investigations of what the “fake” conservatives in the Bush Administration nor would they blow the whistle when Bush tortured people and wiretapped Americans without a warrant. The conservatives that Jill mentioned seem to be the exception and the Bushies are the rule.
Jill:
Guilt by association is by no means a perfect science, and if they have disavowed them I stand corrected, but how could you stay in such a group without some taint?
Hi mespo,
I have heard them both speak and they really have disavowed the cheney/bush policies in no uncertain terms. In my own life I found I have to trust and distrust others based on words and actions. Group membership is sometimes a guide to how people really are, but that hasn’t always been the case. That’s been my experience.
Jill
Jill:
I agree that not all conservatives are of the Limbaugh stripe just like all Nazi’s were not of the Eichmann stripe. The problem is that you are defined by the most prominent among you and Limbaugh beats Fine and Katyal hands down, unless, of course, they dare to disavow him and have a dialog about the true definition of conservatism. I shall await that day. I’ll take Allies wherever I find them, but I don’t have to trust them.
You funny rafflaw! I don’t see how you compromise with people who have no intention of compromising on any thing either. If I gave that impression, I’m sorry. What I should have been more clear about is this: some of the strongest advocates for the rule of law have come from conservatives (Bruce Fine) or people who self describe as conservative leaning (Neal Katyal). So it is interesting to me to hear others say there is only one definition of a conservative (ie: Rush). Allies may appear in any group and liberals, who ought to be on the side of the constitution as well, too often, aren’t. 10-4
Mespo727272:
Rufflaw:
At its core, conservatism is about fear and survivalism and is locked somewhere in our genetic code. They continue to picture the world as a lifeboat and they are more than willing to throw any principle over the side to “survive.” They will also throw anyone unlike them from a racial or socio-economic standpoint. Ultimately, they will end up like the real survivors in a lifeboat and turn to cannibalism as they miss the key to survival which is, of course, to work together.
***************************
Mespo, from what I have observed of so-called “conservatives,” they’re incapable of working together. To do so would require them giving up the power they grabbed for themselves back to the people, from which they took it. Of course, as one very wise man observed long ago, we (the people) have had that power all along. Too many of us just gave it up to others, instead of keeping it for ourselves. Conservatives are just hoping we will never collectively figure that out.
I am giving up for the rest of the day! I do know how to spell writing before msnbc=bs chimes in!
Jill,
Sorry about my bad writint. That should be You “are” right in my first sentence.
Jill,
You right that we should be a government of laws, but the Bush crowd has turned that idea on its head. You cannot compromise with them because they will not allow any of their own to be indicted or brought to justice for their crimes. Their goal is for their corporate friends to make money, no matter how many Americans lose their lives or how many innocent Iraq citizens are killed in the process. How else do you explain Bush’s recent interference with the EPA pollution standards?
The S/M, marginally metaphoric description is a disturbing account of the AG’s psyche (which, from everything else I see, applies to most of the administration).
I agree with you rafflaw. They want convictions, no matter guilt, no matter how evidence is obtained, no matter if there is any justice in the proceedings at all.
We are encouraged to believe two false premises:
1. everyone at GITMO is guilty or they wouldn’t be there in the first place.
2. everyone there has been treated quite well and will be given a full and fair hearing that they don’t even deserve because they are such awful people.
It scares me that these ideas are accepted by many people in the U.S. John McCain used to have it right when he said it’s about us, not them. It is irrelevant how evil any prisoner is. Many conservatives are on the side of preserving our constitution and it’s absolute insistence that we are a government of law, not of men.
Mespo,
You are right except the lifeboat would have a hole in it because the Conservatists would have had “hecka job Brownie” in charge of supplying the emergency life boats.
Rufflaw:
At its core, conservatism is about fear and survivalism and is locked somewhere in our genetic code. They continue to picture the world as a lifeboat and they are more than willing to throw any principle over the side to “survive.” They will also throw anyone unlike them from a racial or socio-economic standpoint. Ultimately, they will end up like the real survivors in a lifeboat and turn to cannibalism as they miss the key to survival which is, of course, to work together.
Mespo,
Not only do the so-called conservativeslike msnbc=bs, portray an ignorance of history, they also miss an important part of Professor Turley’s point. The biggest shame for me is that Mukasey doesn’t care if they are afforded a “fair” hearing or trial, he just didn’t want them to get the punishment that the terrorists wanted once we find them guilty. This is the AG that we had to vote on. I hope Sen. Schumer is reading the crap that Mukasey is spewing.
“THEY want death, THEY pray for death, if THEY had a single second opportunity they would gladly take the life of those sons & daughters of ours bravely guarding so THEY may earn their “place in heaven”
–MSNBC ETC
I just wonder who THEY refers to in this sentence. If he means all Saudi’s, our resident bs’er has now accomplished something that even the great Edmund Burke (perhaps the father of conservatism) could not do when he said “I do not know the method of drawing up an indictment against an whole people.”
I do love these conservatives. Like precocious children, they believe their ideas are so shining and new since that the world only began wrestling with them on the day they said them. The ignorance of their own history is astounding.
Mr Bush’s remarks yesterday at the meeting, were the usual bland free-market generalities, tinctured with optimism.
Mukasey and Cheney alike seem to be missing the delivery gene when it comes to humor. They mean well, but both are too orderly and controlled by nature to be good at it.
Mukasey is right.
They want death, they pray for death, if they had a single second opportunity they would gladly take the life of those sons & daughters of ours bravely guarding so they may earn their “place in heaven”. I say prolong their “agony” by allowing them to live their hell on earth!