An editor of has declared that any pity for the Palestinians in Gaza is “unethical and immoral.” The editorial by Adi Dvir appeared in Israel’s largest newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, on January 4, 2009 as the international community has complained about civilians deaths in the campaign and the United States blocked a United Nations resolution calling for an end of all hostilities.
Adi Divr writes:
To pity the people of Gaza is to patronize them, in essence implying that they do not control their fate, the state of their government, or their own actions. It is to assume one of two things: Either that Gazans are too stupid to oust the cancerous Hamas presence in their midst, or that they are unable to do so.
A bit harsh I’d say. It is hard to view the current bombing campaign as a sign of respect.
I am sympathetic to Israel’s loss of patience over the incessant rocket attacks from Hamas areas. No country is expected to remain silent as such attacks occur. These rockets kill indiscriminately, including the recent tragedy where Palestinian rockets killed Palestinian children in Gaza. However, it is hard to see how this campaign is going to help end those hostilities. There is growing concern over excessive force, such as the killing of Iman al-Ham and the destruction of an entire apartment building to kill a Hamas leader. There are reports that Israel is using sound bombs and even calling homes to warn civilians before such attacks to reduce civilian fatalities, click here.
What is clear is that columns like those by Adi Dvir show how detached people have become to the suffering of people on the other side of the conflict. The columnist goes on to say “[j]ust as a crying baby who only elicits pity will continue to cry, the citizens of Gaza will continue to cry out to the world instead of taking matters into their own hands.” The total absence of any sense of humanity is all too familiar in this part of the world.
For those sane Israelis who support this operation, the condemnation of Adi Dvir should be shift and loud.
For the column, click here.
Gyges:
“Some subjects are just to charged to discuss calmly. The greatest movie ever made is one of those topics.”
Ah yes, who could ever forget Jackie Treehorn’s production of “Gutter balls?” Especially with Kenny Rogers on the soundtrack.
Seamus,
Some subjects are just to charged to discuss calmly. The greatest movie ever made is one of those topics.
I’m gonna close my role in this thread with this.
I never defended over-reactions by Israel. I never defended civilian killing. I came in and pointed out, and accurately so, that a statement in the above article seemed to infer that the telephone calls and “sound bombs” were a bad thing. I pointed out they were a good thing. This prompted two responses.
One from Professor Turley, where he modified the statement to point out these were to reduce civilian casualties. Probably just an oversight in the original article no doubt.
And one from others, trying to paint me into a corner into defending EVERYTHING Israel is doing and has done.
Its a strawman way to argue for sure. You try to force my position into something it is not. Then, when you don’t like my responses, you start with the character assassination, the condescending talk and the holier than thou facade. And it works pretty well. See, you get me responding to not one, but three or four people and it appears I’m ranting, when in fact I’m responding to multiple parties. It works well. One does not stand well against many.
But if alone I must post then alone I’ll post, rather than put up with such pompous snobbery that would have turned heads on the Titanic. This is a “click” to be sure, you few. You loyal few. You “band of brothers” or something like that. And I’m clearly on the outside looking in. But that doesn’t make me wrong.
And that mespo thinks that because “his” numbers are lower than “my” numbers that that somehow lessons Hamas’s attacks on civilians is indeed a testament to that fact.
He was wrong when he implied (I’m doing that cool 3rd person snobbery now, only it doesn’t really work since I’m talking to myself) that there were no deaths. Now he wants to argue the number as if that makes it better. The fact is Hamas suddenly started murdering civilians launching wave after wave of rocket attacks on civilian populations and that is a reason for Israel to respond. We holding no moral high ground of our own with our troops currently occupying a foreign country that never attacked us, can’t really fault them for doing what they need to do to defend themselves. We can demand however they do it humanely, and I was merely pointing out what appeared to be an attempt by Israel to do just that, by warning civilians prior to air strikes.
For my stating that, all this followed. Perhaps I am a bit thin skinned sometimes, or at least appear that way. But considering how many times I’ve been attacked out of the blue for no reason other than “being here” it’s surprising I’m not more so.
Anyway that’s all I got. Mespo, sorry I called you a liar. I went over there. You helped me over, but I still made the trip.
I just wish people on this blog could be more civil when discussing “Red Dawn”.
Good call.
FFLeo:
Your advice is sound as always. I will take it.
The only reason I’m being attacked in this thread is because I dared point out Israels attempts to curb civilian deaths. I took a partially opposing view, then was quickly shoved into a completely opposing view (whether I possessed it or not), and then of course comes the inevitable character flaw lectures. These are designed to augment your positions by instead of attacking my positions, attacking my character. I’ve counted this technique in here now over half a dozen times. It works pretty well too.
Someone disagrees or offers a contrary opinion. Others counter it, then when their counters are rebuffed or contested, they turn to character assassinations. It’s a common tactic, made famous by Karl Rove. And it works really, really, well.
Well folks, these “discourses” illustrate the epitome of the pros and cons involving the freedom of speech section of the First Amendment. Professor Turley has stated that he prefers to allow such freedoms, including the endless and irrelevant trolling copy/pastes that—at least—increase the blog hits per year honors!
Most importantly, we are all free to ignore whatever sections we choose and/or avoid persons with whom we might prefer to stay disengaged. This is one very important provision of the U.S. Constitution receiving full display and action within this blawg.
mespo727272 1, January 5, 2009 at 4:33 pm
“waynebro:
Unfortunately the AP in a Jan. 3, 2009 article disagrees with your unreferenced quote:
“Israel’s bruising air campaign against Gaza over the past eight days began days after a six-month truce expired. Gaza health officials say the air war has killed more than 480 Palestinians in an attempt to halt Hamas rocket attacks that were reaching farther into Israel than ever before. Four Israelis have been killed by rockets.”
Apparently your figures are from before the truce. 480 for 4 doesn’t seem proportional to me, or, it seems, to most anyone else.”
Stow this too. You actually think I’d reasonably debate the issue with you after you waltzed in and insulted me like that? Go diddle yourself mespo. If you want respect then show some.
mespo727272 1, January 5, 2009 at 4:19 pm
“waynebro:
Come on. Nobody’s insulting your intelligence, just making an observation that sometimes, just sometimes, you appear a little thin-skinned. We all like to read your comments and your points are often well taken, but what makes this little soiree go is differences in opinion crisply put and wittily defended. Don’t pack your marbles up just yet.”
Stow it.
Your combined attempts with your side kick who’s name shall not be uttered herein to drive me out just haven’t worked nor will they. You think you’re subtle, or fooling someone but you’re not. You’re just a pompous ass who’s too afraid to post his own photo, probably due to the fact you’re not who or what you claim to be. For all your talk, you and your friend who also failed to post her photo after declaring she “ought to”, are just two pompous snobs with big mouths and bigger egos who half the time don’t have an intelligent thought between the two of you. You saw this argument between Gyges and me winding down, so you decided to come in and stir it up. That makes you less than the grandiose image you present in here. The fact that your long time “regulars” support you and gang up on me is merely a tribute to “group think”, nothing more. You’re a coward. And a liar. And I’d call you that to your face if you had the balls to show it.
And as for my marbles, at least I’ve still go mine.
What happened to yours?
waynebro:
Unfortunately the AP in a Jan. 3, 2009 article disagrees with your unreferenced quote:
“Israel’s bruising air campaign against Gaza over the past eight days began days after a six-month truce expired. Gaza health officials say the air war has killed more than 480 Palestinians in an attempt to halt Hamas rocket attacks that were reaching farther into Israel than ever before. Four Israelis have been killed by rockets.”
Apparently your figures are from before the truce. 480 for 4 doesn’t seem proportional to me, or, it seems, to most anyone else.
mespo727272 1, January 5, 2009 at 3:49 pm
“My I have missed quite the gun fight at the OK corral today with four of our regulars. My only comment is to say I wasn’t aware that Hamas has killed anyone with those rocket attacks. I thought they were more nuisance that lethal. ”
Well Mespo, as usual when you come in to toss your less than two cents worth, what you “know” and what you are “aware of” is far from reality.
Next time you decide to waltz in and stir up an argument that was clearly winding down, you might try to at least be accurate.
waynebro:
Come on. Nobody’s insulting your intelligence, just making an observation that sometimes, just sometimes, you appear a little thin-skinned. We all like to read your comments and your points are often well taken, but what makes this little soiree go is differences in opinion crisply put and wittily defended. Don’t pack your marbles up just yet.
Gyges 1, January 5, 2009 at 4:01 pm
“Mespo,
Be that as it may, I should have had better manners than to do it when I’m a guest at someone’s “house.””
Oh I’m sorry.
I wasn’t aware this was “your house”.
And here I was under the mistaken notion all along that this was Professor Turley’s blog.
How utterly inferior of me.
“# mespo727272 1, January 5, 2009 at 3:49 pm
My I have missed quite the gun fight at the OK corral today with four of our regulars. My only comment is to say I wasn’t aware that Hamas has killed anyone with those rocket attacks. I thought they were more nuisance that lethal. Certainly Israel can defend itself but is there no room for a proportional response. If I slap you across the face, may you you sever my headwith a bayonet in response. Is that moral or even productive?
# 42 mespo727272 1, January 5, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Gyges:
I think your comments in defense of Jill are noble, and I am not aware of any annoying habits of yours. I also think your take on our friend waynebro is dead on”
Ahh, and there it is. The gang up. When someone won’t submit to your bullshit, in comes the Hole-In-The-Head gang to shore up your nonsense and promote your self professed superiority.
So instead of burying the hatchet, or finding that respect for others, you will now burrow into the warm bosom of your Band of Bullshitters, and return to declaring my inferiority.
Fine.
I made an attempt to meet you in the middle but obviously the 3 Amigos would rather play the pile on game rather than “get along” as you all profess you want to.
Just don’t come crying to me anymore about playing nice.
And Mespo? Well, you know where you can shove it, right?
Mespo,
I think that what people find annoying is like Beauty, mostly universal but with enough variation that everyone gets to join in the fun.
Mespo,
Be that as it may, I should have had better manners than to do it when I’m a guest at someone’s “house.”
Gyges:
I think your comments in defense of Jill are noble, and I am not aware of any annoying habits of yours. I also think your take on our friend waynebro is dead on.
My I have missed quite the gun fight at the OK corral today with four of our regulars. My only comment is to say I wasn’t aware that Hamas has killed anyone with those rocket attacks. I thought they were more nuisance that lethal. Certainly Israel can defend itself but is there no room for a proportional response. If I slap you across the face, may you you sever my headwith a bayonet in response. Is that moral or even productive?
Bob, Esq. 1, January 5, 2009 at 2:36 pm
“Actually I answered it the first time via posing a question illustrating just how implausible your argument was. I answered it a second time by reminding you that the law doesn’t give a crap how you ‘feel’ about who ‘deserves’ what. And then I answered it a third time in crayon.
How do I put this; your hypothetical is bullshit. The law punishes actors and not geography; no matter how much you feel a certain geography ‘deserve’s it’”
First of all the implausibility of a analogy is never a topic for debate. It only becomes a topic for debate when the receiver is unable to refute the logic thereof, as you are now.
Secondly, its not that implausible. We have intelligence now telling us Al Quaida is using Mexico to enter the US because of the similarities in appearance to the Mexican people and the Arabic people. So the idea that Al Quaida might use Mexico as a staging ground to launch attacks on the US is not at all implausible.
Not that its plausibility matters on bit, as I stated above.
As for your Red Herrings and Straw Dogs about who “deserves what”, that’s just more bullshit.
I never suggested this was about deserving. I said Israel, and any country for that matter, has a RIGHT to defend themselves.
And if Al Quaida started slamming rockets into Miami, felling Senior citizens homes and the Mexican government couldn’t (or wouldn’t) do anything about it, IMMEDIATELY, then we would have every right to move into Mexican territory and take out the enemy.
The notion of letting Americans die while we debate with Mexico and the international community is absurd. Ridiculous. We’d go in, and we’d go in guns blazing and we’d not stop until the enemy was defeated. And we’d be fully within our rights to do so.
As for your “crayon” comment, stow it. In case you haven’t gathered by now I have fairly broad vocabulary and am not hindered in that respect. I merely was keeping you from burying your answer in pompous sounding bullshit.