In light of the recent defenses made recently on behalf of Judge Jay Bybee, John Yoo, and Steven Bradbury, this picture appears to capture their sudden emergence into the public debate.
Of course, it is important to get people to join you in the gutter when arguing that torture is excusable when committed by Americans or when torture works.. My favorite recent claim by Pat Buchanan that, since we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, anything short of atomic annihilation is now permissible — even if we later signed treaties promising to prosecute any American who engaged in torture.
FormerDem, I take it from your statements that you believe that certain Democratic committee members acquiesced in the Bush administration’s determination to torture detainees. Assuming you are correct for the sake of argument, and you may well be, what significance does that have as a legal matter? Any bona fide investigation into whether laws were broken will need to follow the evidence trail wherever it may lead. If that risks exposing certain Democrats, that is hardly an argument against investigations. If your actual concern is that the investigation will harm the morale of dedicated CIA employees, I view that position as valid, but unconvincing. What is being lost in the political exchanges is an understanding of the underlying issues. No one risks prosecution whose actions were in good faith reliance on legal opinions. No lawyers risk prosecution for merely giving bad legal advice. Malpractice is not a crime. The inquiry is whether a course of action was adopted with the knowledge that it was illegal and that legal opinions were cobbled together to provide support for activities which the drafters of the opinions also knew were illegal. Criminal liability can only attach to those who knowingly adopted illegal policies and those who knowingly implemented them.
Mespo,
There is something wrong with the link. I get a “forbidden” message when I try it.
I have to agree with Prof. Turley’s description of the felonious raccoon clan. They are now trying to chew through the plastic garbage can that I keep my bird seed in. I will now have to switch to a metal one. Maybe a little Gitmo techniques will dissuade those varmints!
Finally,
Former Dem, I am not sure that Peter Goss’ memory of the so-called Gang of Four briefings is to be relied on. First of all, he is a former CIA agent and the former head of the CIA. Secondly, none of the Gang of Four could go public without committing a felony. Finally, even if the Gang of Four was all in favor of this activity, it is still Illegal. What does it take for that to sink in. Just because 8 do it doesn’t make it any less illegal than if just one or two do it. The briefings are only informational and they were not asking for “permission”,only telling them what may or may not be done.
When will this raccoon prejudice ever end? Just because they appear to be masked doesn’t make them thieves or burglars. They culturally believe that guests should be catered to even if uninvited. Would that we would learn to be gentle with some guests, think of the love we might engender.
Mespo,
some psychotherapists might say that the posting of an inoperable link was a sign of hostility on your part. I see it merely as a too early partaking of a Sunday libation.
This means they’re getting defensive and scared. Retribution will come for the evil committed to the honor of our Nation.
m72,
That link is “forbidden” will not open.
However, you pointed out those animals in JT’s thumbnail and I never enlarged the photo to notice. I actually–no joke–just thought that is was *gutter trash* like crumpled up newspaper, or the like.
JT:
While your critters are cuter (and from the correct locale), mine are more accurate.
http://k41.pbase.com/u11/bret/upload/38100566.jackass.jpg
Dear Mespo:
Your link does not appear work, at least for me. I also do not want to suggest that raccoons are prone to war crimes. They tend to work entirely on theft and breaking and entry crimes. Just in case the Raccoon Lovers of America are preparing a letter.
JT
Former (if you ever were) Dem:
“Shame on you half dozen losers. You think you are acting so magnificently in your false defense of the US Constitution when it is nothing but politics you serve.”
*********
Even you must stand in stark amazement then as the most conservative Supreme Court in memory strikes down law after policy after pronouncement from the miscreant Bush Administration. Maybe we’er all just misguided fools involved in a “false defense” of the Constitution, but we stand in overwhelming numbers, and, last I looked, overwhelming numbers still runs a democracy. Bask in your self-righteousness while we clean the mess over your pontifications (and robotic “cut and pastes”) to the contrary.
OH MY GOD.
Seriously, I don’t know how you conjured the most admirable restraint I have recently seen on cable news to not get up and strangle Chris ‘blowhard’ Matthews and Pat ‘noise’ Buchanan.
Matthews’ reverence of establishment media figures has been well documented. To provide just one link (everyone in the thread get on the Greenwald train! cho cho!): http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/06/14/matthews/
Had that debate continued, I wonder what kinds of additional false choices Matthews would have thrown at you:
– “So, Mr. Turley, we massacred villagers at Mai Lai, why can’t we do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan? Wouldn’t renouncing that pattern of behavior make us historical hypocrites?”
– “Mr. Turley, say what you want about Stalin, but didn’t he provide the needed resolve to see his country through tough times? Isn’t Obama doing the same thing?”
– “Mr. Turley, establishment media journalists and political figures are a sacred institution that need not be disturbed. Are you willing to destroy the Constitution by speaking out against them? Your response.”
Mr. Turley,
I watched your discourse on Hardball and the strange, almost psychotic, behaviour of Buchanan.
One of the things that might be rattling their cages is that our criminal law (not war crimes law) provides for the death penalty for anyone who tortures someone who then dies as a result of that torture: http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/04/penalty-for-torture-can-be-death.html
Your decency shined through during that program, even though Matthews has lost his perspective perhaps due to hanging with too many neoCon guests at MSNBC.
FD wrote above:
“Shame on you half dozen losers. You think you are acting so magnificently in your false defense of the US Constitution when it is nothing but politics you serve.”
____________________
Again from the Glenn Greenwald link noted in my previous post:
{Quote: The failure of the Democratic Party to meaningfully oppose what was done over the last eight years is a crucial part of the story here and light needs to be shined on that as much as anything else. I don’t know of a single person who has devoted themselves to arguing for investigations who contests that fact.
The inability of so many people (both Republicans and Obama-loyal Democrats) to view the need for prosecutions independent of political considerations is a potent sign of how sick our political culture has become. End Quote}
Oftentimes there is no better spokesperson on ‘rule of law’ issues than Mr. Greenwald.
FD, I am a lifelong conservative Republican and I want and need for torture *investigations* to ensue.
I really am against Torture. I do not understand the concept of Torture except to extract information one would ordinarily not get.
Let me further state that the CIA had good intl before 911. Bush just did not act on it, why so we could have a phantom war with Iraq.
Who appoints the head of the CIA? I know the CIC. What information is released except for what the CIC say? Nothing.
So Former Dem. Do you have a different conceptual reality of what an employees are supposed to do. Does not the Head of the CIA serve at the pleasure of the President of course with the advice and consent of the Senate?
What information does the director of the CIA release. Now if we are talking full disclosure that’s one thing. Would voting against the appropriations bill mean that you are for terrorism? And would that be used against them when they are running for reelection? You bet.
So if your claim is they had bi-lateral support. You are correct. Are you saying that the support was based on Full Disclosure. You are full of it.
From Glenn Greenwald:
{Quote: That torture is a serious felony certainly is a “stubborn, inconvenient fact.” Even the Bush-enabling Washington Post Editorial Page today points out that “American officials condoned and conducted torture”; “Eric H. Holder Jr., the attorney general of the United States, has stated flatly that it is illegal”; and “in a country founded on the rule of law, a president can’t sweep criminality away for political reasons, even the most noble.” I hope Obama loyalists study that last sentence and digest it. End Quote}
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/24/democrats/
Bob,Esq.
That Goss clip,is what Perle was saying about GWB.In so many words.
So why not simply file a bar complaint in the State of Nevada against Bybee for a start?
Here is the Nev discipline page:
http://www.nvbar.org/ethics/ethics_overview.htm
Former Dem,
Seven words:
“Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.”
Porter Goss:
One thing that has come out of all of this so far is,Don’t all jump on me at once.George w. didn’t really understand the extent of what was really going on in his name.
I have been reading Bill Press book “Train Wreck” which by the way gives the proffesor a mention in the book.
The reason I am saying this is what Richard Perle said about GWB.
“The first time I met Bush 43,I knew he was different.Two things became clear.One,he didn’t know very much.The other was he had confidence to ask questions that revealed he didn’t know very much.Most people are reluctant to say when they don’t know something,a word or a term they haven’t heard before.not him.
As I said with this 24 hour coverage on this issue,he seems to be out of the loop by Perles assesment,but in the loop due to it was his administration.
There is very real damage being done by the left of this country every day for political gain. Young men & women in the service are being asked to risk their lives while agencies with the responsibility of providing them with risk assessments meant to ensure their safety are now withdrawing into a shell.
Young men & women will die serving this country because we have become a nation of whiners, quitters, easily swayed TV addicts, that are now looking to get anything they can from a government more than willing to cut them a check.
Shame on you half dozen losers. You think you are acting so magnificently in your false defense of the US Constitution when it is nothing but politics you serve.
Shame on you all, especially the so called educated of you.
Let me be clear. It is my recollection that:
– The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists.
– We understood what the CIA was doing.
– We gave the CIA our bipartisan support.
– We gave the CIA funding to carry out its activities.
– On a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.
I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues.”
^^^Porter Goss public statement.
That interchange was incredible. Our patriots!
If they truly felt torture was necessary for the good of America they would also feel submitting themselves to a court of law to answer for what is clearly against the law, is also necessary for the good of America. I don’t see them turning themselves in. I don’t see Pat or others calling for them to respect the rule of law and turn themselves in. I conclude then, they are all liars and every one of them, a coward.
There was no person in the military who committed torture in Iraq. He turned himself into authorites afterwards. I don’t agree with his use of torture, although I can understand why he may have chosen that path in Iraq as a soldier. At least he had the integrity to acknowledge he had broken the law, no matter what reasons he had for breaking it. He held himself accountable. There is not one torturer or person who believes torture is just fine, that has called for accountability. It isn’t mutually exculsive to believe torture is O.K. and call for accountability. Even Pat admits it’s against our laws. A real patriot would honor the rule of law and hold herself or himself accountable before the law. Anything other than that is self serving propaganda.