House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has continued her effort to explain past statements on torture and her failure to act to stop a war crime after she was briefed on the torture program. After being contradicted by both documents and one of her aides, Pelosi has now accused CIA officials misleading her in 2002.
While clearly flustered in the press conference, Pelosi continues to maintain that she was briefed on such techniques only once — in September 2002 — and that she was only told that the Administration has established that it could start to use waterboarding, a well-known form of torture. She said that in February 2003 she was only told by her staffer that the Republican chairman and the new Democratic ranking member of the Intelligence Committee had been briefed on the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. That sounds like confirmation of torture to me. She added “I’ve dealt with our intelligence professionals for the last 3½ years on an almost daily basis.” Hmmm, after the weapons of mass destruction, the unlawful surveillance, the subsequent unlawful surveillance (after congressional intervention), and other Bush scandals, Pelosi saw no reason not to accept the legal and factual assertions of the agency that she was supposedly overseeing. This dovetails with Pelosi’s view that she had to accept the Bush Administration’s assurance that torture was lawful.
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She did add: “I unequivocally oppose the use of torture.” However, she also blocked any effort to investigate torture during the Bush Administration or any effort to impeachment on the basis of war crimes because she insisted that she knew of no evidence to support such allegations.
By the way, Pelosi was protected by the Speech and Debate Clause and could not have been prosecuted for going to the House floor and saying that she believed that the Administration was committing a possible war crime. Moreover, it is simply not true that she was barred for taken other forms of action. She did not have to go to Adelphi to the answer on waterboarding. A simple google search would have revealed a couple hundred site discussing its status as torture and a war crime.
Finally, if Pelosi believes that she was intentionally misled, she should call of a special prosecutor. After all, giving knowingly giving false information to Congress is a crime under 18 U.S.C. 1001(c):
(c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to—
(1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or
(2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate.
Yet, the most she is willing to do is call for another 9-11 Commission — and not a special prosecutor. The value of the commission is obvious. The 9-11 Commission was filled with reliable democrats and republicans who immediately declared that they would not pursue individuals or assign individual blame. It has been ridiculed for its effort to protect leading figures from blame and leaving massive holes in its investigation.
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uh — back to Nancy Pelosi…. if it’s okay to do that…
I am curious about something… when did her or anyone else’s marital fidelity become a concern with regard to their job performance?
I thought that she was pretty much consistent from interview to interview and if anyone saw Countdown this evening they would have heard the latest, with corroboration that the CIA is sloppy at best with it comes to calendar housekeeping and downright lying at worst.
Torture is torture.
Water boarding is torture.
Someone in this file posted that water boarding is like getting “a little water up one’s nose” I paraphrase.
Someone else or maybe the same person wrote that water boarding is nothing when compared to abortion. I beg to differ. the decision to terminate a pregnancy is a private one made between a woman and her physician. Water boarding is torture.
And at the and of the day what we have are a bunch of people calling the Speaker a whore, a liar and to Debra who proudly served in the military… I believe the term you were looking for for the federal-like crime that follows one throughout one’s who life… it is courts martial…not court martials.
ESTA ‘MADAMA’ PELOSI ES UNA MENTIROSA. COMO PUEDE SER QUE LA TERCERA PERSONA QUE PUEDE REEMPLAZAR AL PRESIDENTE NO TENGA INFORMACIONES NI IDEA DE LO QUE ESTA PASANDO?
-1- ERES UNA MENTIROSA!!
-2- SOS UNA INCOMPETENTE!
-3- SU CARA Y SU NOMBRE ES UN INSULTO PARA LOS VOTADORES.
FUERA MENTIROSA, NO TENES PRINCIPIOS NI ESCRUPOLOS!
NOSOTROS LOS HISPANOS TE VAMOS A HECHAR DESDE CALIFORNIA!..YA VERAS! MENTIROSA
“Consider the accounting scandals a few years ago. The low-level accountants were just following orders. Those same accountants didn’t get prosecuted, just a blackspot on their resumes (even if they didn’t do anything wrong at all). ”
The difference to a good extent is that a low level accountant assigned to a dedicated account may not actually recognize the level of corruption and illegality being perpetrated and certainly have little or no idea about the behavior of the firm as a whole. It’s a way of doing business that keeps full knowledge away from people. In the government it’s a cornerstone of dealing with sensitive and classified information called “compartmentalization”.
Now, if you hand the same accountant a sharp pencil and tell him/her to stick it in the ear or rear of the accountant sitting next to him/her for the good of the company then you’d have a more realistic example.
And if the ‘little guys’ or Pelosi or anyone hearing about the government’s torture policy didn’t expect that the steep and well greased slope would end at just that place (and worse), and was not only morally repugnant but illegal, then they are too stupid to be employed in their field or they’re liars. I’d like to know (though I can guess as can anyone with half a brain) what’s on the tapes the CIA destroyed. Indite them all.
Debra,
I understand what you are saying as well as a lot of others. Sometimes as you can see get lots of people lost on what the want and want it now. An order is an order and must be followed on its face. Do people here want everyone prosecuted for there role in the EIT yes of course are a number of of realist and think that some E-3 will fall for an E-7 orders because “they were career” and wanted to get off of that food chain, yes.
Some of us would be satisfied if we had Bush, Cheney and the others Ordering the EITs Hung and that would include Democrats as well. HELL YES.
Sally,
This is not Bernie M. He cannot make a call right now. However I am taking up a Fund for the Relief of Bernie. He wants me to gather as many possible share holders as possible. Some consortium. Maybe an internet charity, We are only speaking millions. Please Not Billions. That was in the old days. We are only talking about pocket change.
Oh and for those that know me and like me. The first 4 days have been fantastic. It seems like I am just getting there and its time to leave. I guess it could be worse.
I have not seen the Green man on line, has Buddha gone back to Bolivia?
Messpo72Cubed, Thanks.
Mike S. How is sunny Florida? Help me get the account numbers from Sally and we can make a deal. You are closer to the Caymans than I, right now. I laughed when you were chanting Marylynn. Kinda funny.
LottaK. You are ok.
Jill always a thrill to read what you have had to offer.
To all that I have not mentioned in name it was not in vain.
I’m not responding out of emotion as rcampbell is.
On the contrary, Debra. Your argument is entirely and exclusively emotional. You ask us to consider the soldiers’ plight, to consider the soldiers’ families and the pressure to obey illegal orders because it’s too hard to disobey them. You ask that we go easy on soldier and his/her commanders instead of following the law.
I will remind you that the definition of “integrity” is doing what is RIGHT even when it’s hard or even if no one is watching. My argument is that our laws ban tortur–period. My argument is that everyone from Bush to Cheney to Pelosi to Boehner to the DOJ lawyers to the CIA interrogators should be held to account for their lacking in that integrity. Is following the law emotional? Hmmmm.
BTW, where does your highly developed moral relativity come down on requiring soldiers to illegally distribute Bibles—especially in an Islamic country?
Mespo… actually I really did serve. I served because I believe in the goodness of our country. However, I got out because our government officials weren’t honorable. I was never given an illegal order (as I stated before) so I was fortunate to not have to disobey a direct order from a superior. It was discussed that we could disobey illegal orders. However, soldiers who have to disobey illegal orders do initally have to fight a legal battle and some lose because of lack of information or who gave them the order. If they can’t get you for disobeying an order, they will come after you for something else. That’s why I said in my inital post, I mentioned the “Conduct unbecoming, (officer, soldier) of which rcampbell, who hasn’t served, flipantly blew off as nothing at all. However, court martials are like federal crimes, it follows you, your entire life. You loose all VA benefits, retirement, voting rights. Then on top of that, you may have to serve jail time for refusing to do the illegal act. Then you are marked for life in the civilian sector. Now, lets say you have served say 10 years and are a lifer intending to retire as a soldier. That is a long time to throw away. Chances are these soldiers have families and have invested many years to serving their country. No, civilians are clueless of the pressures that these soldiers face and what they have to do to do what is right. rcampbell doesn’t have a clue.
No, I don’t support torture and I believe that who gave the orders should be held responsible, period. I have more compassion and mercy for the individual soldiers who were just following orders. Unfortunately, it seems this is going to turn out to be a witch hunt.
As far as the accounting scandals and that they didn’t involve torture, really, I am only comparing the legality and who was prosecuted. If you are looking at chains of command and who gave orders, who followed them and who was prosecuted, it can be used to determine the level of prosecution in this situation. I’m not responding out of emotion as rcampbell is.
David Kirkbride:
“…she did claim service and in doing so was never given an illegal order………..but she knows they happen all the time,
Strange isn’t it?”
***************
Unbelievable I’d say. 🙂
mespo727272……Thanks for setting Debra straight……… on her be half she did claim service and in doing so was never given an illegal order………..but she knows they happen all the time,
Strange isn’t it?
Debra:
BTW here’s your sworn duty as a person in the service of her country. Following illegal orders is a violation of that duty. I bet you never served or if you did, had no idea your were serving in an honorable institution:
“‘I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God'”
“The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the “lawful command of his superior officer,” 891.ART.91 (2), the “lawful order of a warrant officer”, 892.ART.92 (1) the “lawful general order”, 892.ART.92 (2) “lawful order”. In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.”
Thanks to http://www.crisispapers.org/texts/UCMJ.htm for this succinct research and analysis.
Debra
You’re doing it again. You’re either ignoring or obfuscating reality. These acts of torture against “high-value detainees” were not conducted by low ranking personnel or noncoms. They were done, by the military’s admission, by highly trained experts. This was not Abu Ghraib We’re not talking about Lynndie England. You either have the integrity to condemn the actions and the actors or you do not. Having served in the military does not provide you or anyone else an excuse for downplaying these illegal activities.
BTW, the accountants to whom you refer weren’t responsible for the deaths of some due to extreme interrogation methods on detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan or Gitmo to which the military has admitted. Your moral relativism is showing.
This isn’t an emotional issue—-it’s the LAW!
rcampbell:
You have invoked the wrath of Debra, the Talking Points Queen of the planet Triple G (god, guns, gays) in the Rushbo Galaxy. You could respond if your mind could wrap around that vacuous a mind, but where do you start? (hint: I’d start at “states should be able to make laws pertaining ….” Right out of Gingrich 101, or as I call that course, “Emancipation: What Is It Good For?”)
rcampbell is correct to say this can only be resolved if Democrats and Republicans decide to investigate the matter, no matter who is involved.
It’s clear that some people are turning on each other to save their skins. Cheney implicated Bush for the first time rather recently. Pelosi is trying to finger the CIA. The CIA is trying to finger Pelosi. Condi Rice wavered a bit and said she was just doing what she was told. So I think of this as the opportune moment for at least two things to happen:
1. a giant document dump of evidence from anyone of courage in any branch of our govt. or private contracting company/agency
2. for the people who believe in our Consitution who are left in the Congress to hold immediate hearings, back to back, of everyone, under oath, no holds barred, not letting up until every single participant in this process is exposed.
The participants are showing weakness and disarray at this time. This won’t last long. Dissent will be silenced. So this is the time to move, while they still don’t quite have their shit together. After that, it won’t be impossible but it will be very, very hard.
rbjets69… it seems that you have joined in, so I guess you are uneducated as well as you so stated in your post.
rcampbell, I don’t support torture and I do believe that many should be held responsible. However, soldiers are given orders everyday, some legal and some illegal. Many times, the illegal orders don’t involve torture, just the stupidty of those in charge. Because you’ve never served, it’s obvious that you really don’t understand. I have served. Thankfully, I have never been given an illegal order. Actually, you don’t have to serve to be put in similar situations. Consider the accounting scandals a few years ago. The low-level accountants were just following orders. Those same accountants didn’t get prosecuted, just a blackspot on their resumes (even if they didn’t do anything wrong at all). These same accountants weren’t under a binding contract to serve their country where the government owns them. So the circumstances are complicated and should not be handled based on emotional reactions as you are responding out of.
Reaganite
We here pretty much agree there should be a FULL airing. The result may well be to expose and embarrass those Democrats and Republicans who knew what was going on and did nothing. That’s fine. That’s as it should be.
The biggest news, however, will be the jailing of Bush, Cheney, etal. for signing off on and deliberately breaking US and international laws and treaties. Yeah, let’s do it!!!
It’s sad when you are given an opportunity to have a public discussion on the important issues facing this country, this is the best you can do. Any of you high school grads, middle school or attend school, anyone? Try reading a newspaper, watch a news broadcast or God forbid, stop listening to right wing radio. Use your head for something besides putting your Skoal Bandits hat on. There is so much information at your finger tips and you continue to plod along in your ignorance, bigotry and hate.
“Look, you don’t get it and that is obvious. I don’t support torture….”
Oh, so if I served in the military I’d find torture acceptable? I hope I never get that jaded or am ever so subservient to anyone or anything.
If you don’t support torture, don’t put forth lame alibis for those responsible for ordering and conducting torture.
Obama really kicked an ant hill with his ill-advised and politically motivated release of Bush Administration memos regarding EITs- I’m sure he already regrets it.
So, let’s have a hearing and get it all out there, shall we? Then watch the rats scatter who attacked Bush for protecting the country from terrorist attack… but who clearly knew what was going on five years before we heard a peep out of them
Mike,
The recent disharmony on the blog had brought that to the tip of my tongue. I’ve been trying to decide who the heretics are.
Let me get this straight. If the known liar Obama can’t fulfill the office of the Presidency, then it’s Biden (who can’t tell the truth about where he ate today) then Pelosi ( who can’t tell the truth about anything).
How far down the list do we have to go to get someone who can actually tell the truth?
Funny, I haven’t heard any “Obama lied, people died” about Afghanistan, Pakistan, or Iraq. Same old, same old, yet the cool aid drinkers don’t care. Never did care about the people – just keeping their hate alive and well. Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, the Lisper, et al – what a bunch of clowns, and LYING CROOKS. Thought Stretch was going to clean the swamp. Thats sort of like the fox watching the hen house. Joke.