New York City health officials are investigating the death of a baby boy who died of herpes after a circumcision by Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer. Fischer carries the herpes virus and is believed to have infected two other infants while serving as a mohel. Under the Orthodox practice followed by Fischer, he actually uses his mouth to suck the blood from the infant’s penis when he cuts the foreskin.
Infants are particularly susceptible to the virus given their reduced immunity systems. Within ten days of the circumcision, one of twin boys died from the virus and another was infected.
The Book of Genesis stipulates circumcision as a defining mark for the descendants of Abraham: “Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old…This shall be my covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant. The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken my Covenant.” (Genesis 17:1-14)
Metzitzah b’peh (“suction by mouth”) is rarely used outside of the Haredi and Hasidic communities. Under this practice, the mohel spits the blood into a receptacle provided. While most mohelim rinse their mouths out with alcohol to sanitize them, alcohol may not kill the herpes virus.
This will make for some novel criminal and tort litigation. It is difficult to see how this shocking practice can be allowed as a public health matter. As a matter of torts, the families can clearly sue this rabbi for negligence with punitive damage potential. Indeed, I believe that there could would be a strong case for battery. The question will be reckless homicide and other criminal charges. Presumably, this rabbi knew he was a carrier and yet proceeded to use his mouth rather than the more common suction device.
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IS, two points: First, you equated a liberal agenda with the nanny state and used forced appendectomies as an example of extending the soft tyranny of that agenda. You were wrong. I used a historic personal anecdote that spoke exactly to the flaw in your statement (I’m just not up to long detailed postings lately). You come back with ‘his choice’.
Srsly, is that the best ya’ got? Ever hear the term ‘economic capital punishment’? It’s a labor law term to describe firing which describes the impact of firing.
In 1931 being fired from a job was very much akin to a death sentence even to working class people that raised chickens and vegetables in their yards in the cities to help them get by.
There were no social programs to deal with poverty, you worked = you ate. If you didn’t work you and your family didn’t eat, didn’t keep a roof over your head and in far too many instances had an enormously degraded chance of physical health. When the unemployment rate is 25% and people get fired from relativly non-skilled jobs they have to worry about survival at it’s most basic level. That is something I heard from many people that live through the Depression, not just one. Kissing Pharaoh’s ass was how you kept your job and forced medical procedures (and just about anything else Pharaoh demanded) was just how it worked. There were no Liberals then. Socialists yes, but they were met with suppression by the government, they certainly had no power.
‘Choice’ is a fungible concept historically.
Second point, you go on to shift or moderate the initial statement to include neo-cons in the very next posting as if that would moderate the flawed position regarding the authorship of ‘soft tyranny’ in your original post. It doesn’t. In terms of taking your freedoms away I suggest you look to neo-cons and conservatives.
The Democratic party while complicit in the rape of the Constitution are hardly a Liberal party. The only real obvious liberals you have are Kusinich (SP), Sanders and Kennedy and Kennedy has slid by on reputation on several significant votes IMO.
People in this country haven’t seen a Liberal party in so long they’ve forgotten what constitutes a Liberal party. To let the Who sum it up, ‘the party on the left is the party on the right.’
Liar With A Camera,
Read your poem, followed your link and your point is?
“Mike S,
I think you need ‘a time out’ in your little chair or I might have to turn you over my knee, you naughty little boy…”
Patty C,
If any woman who I’ve been involved with ever said that to me tears of laughter would have been streaming down my face and conversely I would have cracked them up if I tried that line. I
have no problem with anyone’s fetishes, providing they’re consensual and with people of legal age. The idea of them doesn’t float my boat but for others do what turns you on.
However, you couldn’t make this dialogue she used up in a D&S parody and I find it unlikely that it was done unknowingly. Also too the sobriquet “Domino” would fit that scene so perfectly.
The Ceremony
If we are created in his image,
God himself
must be uncircumcised.
Who will be worthy
to perform that ceremony?
Mike S,
I think you need ‘a time out’ in your little chair or I might have to turn you over my knee, you naughty little boy…
p.s. I have tears straming down my face from laughing and stomach hurts…
IS,
Right on the money.
Mike Spindell:
my apologies, I should have included right wing Neo-Cons in with my broad brush. And I certainly don’t disagree with your statement.
So I will gladly make the statement again.
This is exactly what upsets me about most liberals, neo-cons and conservatives, they want to take our freedoms away for any reason. Be it high taxes or abortion or wire tapping the political left and the political right are tyrants.
I hope you join me in that sentiment.
lottakatz:
your dad had a choice and it was his. he was not compelled by force to have his tonsells out.
The federal government caused the depression of 1929-1941-3 by it’s involvement in the Federal Reserve and stimulus spending.
government can only make you do something through force or threat of force.
“this is exactly what upsets me about most liberals, they want to take our freedoms away for any reason.”
IS,
I appreciate your contributions in this but the statement above is simply not supportable by the facts. The anti-abortion movement is decidedly right wing, for instance. Widespread use of wiretaps by the NSA was instituted by the Bush/Cheney crime
family and defended by most Republicans. The incursions upon separation of church and state have been also pushed by right
wingers. Stupidity exists in all ranges of the political spectrum as is the tendency to want to force others to believe as you do. As far as Domino’s political leanings I have no idea where she stands in the political spectrum. Left wing wouldn’t be a bad surmise, given some of her source material, but there really isn’t enough evidence.
“This fundamentalist/orthodox morality of Western Civilization requires that the sensual/sexual pleasures of the body must be extremely limited if not destroyed to achieve “salvation of the soul” (re, the “virtues” of celibacy, virginity and chastity). What better place to begin than with the mutilation and destruction of the genitals which are designed to experience
sensual pleasure and share sexual love?”
Domino,
When making what you consider to be valid points it would be nice if you didn’t generalize and lump Judaism in with Western Civilization. Judaism eschews celibacy. While it is true that Judaism believes sex should be reserved for marriage, which is of course rarely followed, or by some religious Jews doing everything but intercourse, Judaism has very positive sexual attitudes that are encompassed in religious law.
Sexual pleasure in marriage is considered a blessing and the male is commanded to pay as much attention to his wife’s pleasure as she is to his. This is true even in the most Fundamentalist of Jewish Sects. From my perspective, and from your own early evidence here, it can be inferred that the delay of orgasm you associated with circumcision was purposeful to try to assure the woman achieving orgasm in intercourse. I personally find some religious rituals of other religions puzzling and barbaric, but I don’t normally write castigating them because I lack the understanding and perspective. You seem to have no problem in doing so.
“I wonder where Anonymously Yours was when I was being called an “it” and a “he/she” and genitally-obsessed, ex-military dominatrix? You didn’t seem to think that was such an impropriety, did he?”
I used he/she because I didn’t know what sex you were and did not want to be sexist in referring to you. You were the first to cast aspersions, Domino, or don’t you think that the followings statements were aspersions?:
“It has become more than obvious, in this thread and others that I arouse the castration anxieties of some of you here.”
“I am somewhat sympathetic, because I have admittedly hacked away at many of your preconceived notions, sliced through your rationalizations, and sawed away at your complacency.”
“I know that it hurts you, but I do it out of kindness and
for your own sake.”
Do you really pretend that that was reasonable language? In truth it would be highly appropriate in a D&S porno flick and
I merely answered your aspersions in kind. Also too there were implications that I was calling you bigoted and/or anti-Jewish which I clearly was not. You have not been victimized here by me, or in fact anyone else. You in fact have been the aggressor and caster of aspersions.
“Before discussing the concept of metzitsa b’peh, it should be noted that the unfortunate death of this infant took place in 2005. Though it is always painful to hear of the death of a child, this is not a recent article despite the fact that it was recently posted by the blogger.
According to our investigation with people involved in the case, the Mohel was not found guilty. According to his son, he underwent court ordered medical testing that was negative for herpes. The New York State Health Department determined that it could not ban metzitsa b’peh, but did put out an official notice discouraging this practice.
Metzitsa b’peh is a mainly practiced among the Chassidic community. (The majority of other Orthodox Jews perform circumcision without any direct oral contact, with everything sanitized to the highest standard – gloves, handwashing, antiseptic, etc). Interestingly, the original intention of this practice was as a health measure. Bleeding was believed to sanitize a wound, and in those days, instruments were not sanitary, so this was the healthiest way of drawing the blood.
Susanne Goldstone Rosenhouse
National Jewish Outreach Program
Social Media &
Regional Program Coordinator
(800) 44-TORAH
(646) 871-4444 x32
Susanne@NJOP.org”
So the story that started this thread in the first place took place 4 years ago and the supposed herpes infected Rabbi, didn’t have herpes and was found to be not guilty. But hey why bother with that because there are Jew’s involved, right
TruthBeKnown, who in his last post showed his true colors.
As far as skin color, being formerly blond, but still blue eyed, with pale skin, my guess is I look as white as he does but TruthBeKnown wouldn’t consider me that because I’m Jewish.
How many other posters on this thread decrying circumcision
would agree with TruthBeKnown’s last diatribe? I suspect none.
There is a difference between being against a Jewish ritual, or even not being a supporter of Israel and being truly, bigotedly anti-Jewish. I recognize that and my impression is that TruthBeKnown is the only anti-Jewish bigot on this thread.
Perhaps it is now more clear how philosophical and theological moral dualism has conspired against the human body, particularly the female body and the sensual/sexual pleasures that they represent. This moral dualism of Western Civilization is one of the great roots of violence against the human body and the female body in particular. And these moral traditions are not confined to the cultures of Western Civilization which subordinate female to male; assures the continuing inequality of woman to man and the violence of man against woman and her children.
This fundamentalist/orthodox morality of Western Civilization requires that the sensual/sexual pleasures of the body must be extremely limited if not destroyed to achieve “salvation of the soul” (re, the “virtues” of celibacy, virginity and chastity). What better place to begin than with the mutilation and destruction of the genitals which are designed to experience
sensual pleasure and share sexual love?
…It is clear to this writer that before genital mutilations of our children can cease; before male violence against woman can end; and before human violence can be eliminated that a moral revolution must take place. Pain must be declared immoral and pleasure must be declared morally necessary if we are to become moral persons. In the words of Walt Whitman:
“IF ANYTHING IS SACRED THE HUMAN BODY IS SACRED”
http://montagunocircpetition.org/genitalpain.pg
Male circumcision is not primarily a medical issue but rather has its roots in deeply held religious beliefs and social customs that defy rational and humane understanding.
James W. Prescott, Ph.D.
Institute of Humanistic Science
“Circumcision is an archaic ritual mutilation that has no justification whatever and no place in a civilized society.” –World Renowned Anthropologist Ashley Montagu
The Ashley Montagu Campaign Against the Torture and Mutilation of Children
http://montagunocircpetition.org/
*He didn’t seem to think that was such an impropriety, did he?
I wonder where Anonymously Yours was when I was being called an “it” and a “he/she” and genitally-obsessed, ex-military dominatrix? You didn’t seem to think that was such an impropriety, did he?
How about we all just do what we want. That is, so long as it doesn’t involve bloodshed.
May I suggest that this has gone beyond decent discussion. I know that I am one to speak when I have had my rants, but can we stay focused on the topic at had? So to speak.
“GWLawSchoolMom: Thank you for the results of your small non-random survey.”
Lmfao.
Part 3