There is an interesting debate going on in St. Petersburg where mayoral candidate Bill Foster is being attacked for his belief in creationism. As Florida’s fourth-largest city, St. Petersburg has tried to attract businesses and industry. His critics claim that high-tech companies are going to get the wrong impression if the Mayor believes that the Earth was created in six days and that man walked with dinosaurs.
Foster once objected to his son being taught evolution in school. Pinellas School Board wanted teaching about alternatives to the theory of evolution, such as the Genesis account and repeated the ridiculous claims that Darwin contributed to the rise of Hitler and the Columbine massacre. We have seen this attack on Darwin by people like Ben Stein and others recently.
Foster, a member of Starkey Road Baptist Church in Seminole, has not backed down from his views during this debate. He insists that Genesis says that the Earth was created in six days and that this is literally true. He argues that man and dinosaurs clearly existed together despite the fact that there is a 60 million year gap between the two species. His proof is that “[d]inosaurs are mentioned in Job, so I don’t have any problem believing that dinosaurs roamed the earth.” Job refers to a “behemoth.”
Foster asks a legitimate question: “How does my knowledge of scientific theory impact my ability to rationally govern the city of St. Petersburg? It’s completely irrelevant.”
When do the radical personal views of a politician become relevant? We have seen Obama, Clinton, and other politicians routinely use their religious views as part of their campaigns. If it is appropriate to use religious views as a positive element in a campaign, it opens the door for its use as a negative element. It is not clear, however, that Foster has used his religious views as part of his campaign. For a prior column, click here.
Foster’s extreme views on education and Darwin may be a concern for citizens given the influence of a mayor on school board policies and candidates. Moreover, do extremist views indicate something about a candidate’s intellect or judgment? Would it be appropriate for a voter to oppose a candidate who belonged to a cult or a controversial faith? What do you think?
For the full story, click here.
“As far as Bush goes I think most people, and I include myself, did not pay enough attention to what Bush was doing, we were distracted by the war.”
Byron,
While I respect you and your Conservative viewpoint, the “not
paying attention” and being ‘distracted” is a dog that won’t hunt. After the mess that this very conservative Administration caused fiscally and the related unneeded deaths, it is a little late in the game to disown him. Yet this is the tactic that many conservatives use to disassociate themselves from a man they heartily supported. As for voting for Steve Forbes in the primary that is not something I’d be proud of. Steve’s greatest accomplishment was picking the right parents to conceive and give birth to him, after that intellectually it is all downhill.
Mike:
I think this has been building for a long time. And it basically started with the Bush TARP for me at least which I don’t think was under the duties of the president.
Obama has continued this program, and has taken over GM. Not being a lawyer I cant answer for sure but I don’t think the founders had it in mind for us to bail out failing corporations or running industries. Or owning stock in financial institutions.
As far as Bush goes I think most people, and I include myself, did not pay enough attention to what Bush was doing, we were distracted by the war. Although in my defense I did not vote for him in the primary, I had wanted Steve Forbes and I did not really trust Bush’s compassionate conservatism but voted for him because I liked Al Gore less and I was a party hack (shame one me for that). For my part I am going to be much more vigilant in who I vote for than I was, just because you have an R after your name is not going to count anymore. You can thank or blame Bush for that depending on your political persuasion.
Washington has too much power and it needs to be cut down to size and I think that is what people are responding to. As a people we have not paid enough attention to how our government operates and they think they have carte blanch, and you cant blame them, but it is time to put the skids on.
For example do you remember why the Department of Energy was created during the Carter years? To reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Well 24 billion per year and 30 years later we are still dependent on foreign oil. It is things like that which are giving people pause for thought and reexamining how they view government and their interaction there with.
I’m not sure that someone so obviously suffering delusions would be a good choice. Does he also see large rabbits named Harvey?
Federal LLEO, I read your post, and you no doubt are a wise and temperate man. I am sure your knowledge of law and its’ interpretaion is outstanding, you are to be commended. Buddha, I read your thoughtful posts and though we differ philosophically on this position(personally, I feel a person can be a creationist/non-creationist and still be an affective public official. If I stirred up some rancor I apologize. Coincidentally, you and Mike and Federal LEO are worth the price of admission to read your outstanding posts. You guys are very sharp, keep up the good work. I will be back if I have something to share, and will continue to read your stimulating and thought provoking posts..
Byron, my problem with the Tea Parties is that they are primarily exercises in whining by people who aren’t even sure what they’re afraid of. The idea that these people are “trying to force Washington to follow the Constitution” is pretty much meaningless. I have yet to hear a coherent comment from a Tea Bagger about the Constitution or anything else. I’d be interested in knowing what any of these people find to be unconstitutional about recent actions of the federal government, and why. I would also like to know why none of these folks expressed any concern over the niceties of the Bill of Rights between 2000 and 2008.
Tom:
here is that post with DC Tea Party pictures:
http://912dc.dhwritings.com/
I hope this dispels some of your contention that Tea Party protests are about race. Some of the posters that depicted Obama with a Hitler moustache were from the Lyndon LaRouche group, a whack job of whatever stripe.
On the whole the Tea Parties, in my opinion, are about Liberty and trying to force Washington to follow the Constitution.
Buddha:
as Bertie Wooster would say, “Jeeves it’s the psychology of the individual”.
But I think you have to be careful when trying to figure out if a creationist is that way because he is a nut job or because he thinks he has looked into it and has done some research and figures this is the right thing. We all hold beliefs that do not hold up under the light of pure reason and we all think the other guy is wrong if we don’t believe what he believes. This blog is a good example.
I would not have any trouble with a creationist being mayor as long as he kept his views to himself and did not force them on the public. But then I don’t really care if evolution and creationism or intelligent design are taught side by side. I would think the preponderance of evidence for evolution or something akin to it is overwhelming and most people shown this evidence would believe it. Although even evolution does not rule out the unmoved mover.
As my wife says. “it is better to have faith and be wrong than to not have faith and be right”. It is a comfort for some people. Can you blame them? People are egotistical and the idea that you end at death is a little hard to digest. But then you can also say that the world ends when you do, that gives some comfort to, I suppose.
Bob, Esq:
what would Kant have to say about the world ending when you do?
Byron,
I won’t disagree with the assertion that someone with an “authentic” religious background of ANY sort – almost no matter how misguided (within reason) – is more likely to have some kind of better moral compass that the current lot of sociopaths we get to choose from due to our electoral and campaign finance processes. I say “authentic” in quotes to contrast with the very “manufactured” face politicians use. But I think that’s as much a systemic failure if not more so than a failing in people; people IN GENERAL mind you, not in the specific. Some people as you note are long time POS’s and would probably be so no matter what their profession.
None of this negates the logic about better fitness for position based on past performance as a matter of probability.
Buddha:
Stress in public office? The only stress those people have is getting re-elected. I used to work for an association, 20 years ago, I had been out of college for about 2 years and the work was in my field of civil engineering. I had the job for about 8 months and met many politicians, they were mostly full of shit and arrogant as hell and I would not have trusted one of them to run a lemonade stand that I had an interest in. Although that is not entirely true, I did meet a Virginia congressman by the name of French Slaughter, he was every bit the Virginia Gentleman and I would have trusted him.
I even met the congressman from CT., the one that became governor and was just recently sent to prison, it did not surprise me, he was a pos 20 years ago. Every citizen of the US should be forced to work on capital hill, it was an eye popper for a young trusting boy from Missouri. I lost a lot of respect for politicians, most of them are pompous overblown bull shutters of the first order. And legislation, it is all written by associations for their particular interest group.
So I don’t think a guy that believes in cohabitation of T-Rex and homo sapiens is any less qualified than some dimwit who thinks he can feel up a female lobbyist and brag about it in the vicinity of an open mike. At least the creationist may have some values and some discretion.
Byron,
But that’s part and parcel of my point: some people are better at compartmentalization than others and that performance can be estimated by past performance/decisions and how they deal with problems under stress. Yes, there may be a Creationist out there that is so good at compartmentalization that s/he could perform any governmental job without that particular irrational belief compromising their effectiveness, but I’m willing to bet there are a far greater number of atheists that are better at for the reason I stated above: it’s in their nature to use logic and reason FIRST as evidenced by their choices just like it’s in a Creationists nature to use belief first as evidenced by their choices.
You are talking absolutes. I am talking probabilities. Most assessments are made on probability, not absolute values. You may be experiencing what I call “engineer think”. As a species, even before the math was fully known, we probably had the expression “there’s an exception that proves every rule”. That’s a reflection of the intuition of that probability.
my wife and I were discussing this issue (not billy, sorry dude) and she said something interesting:
“the human mind is too complex to assign simplistic notions to. We humans try and wrap up things we don’t understand in nice neat little packages so that we can understand.”
I think she has it about right on the ability of someone to hold office who also holds creationist views. He will probably do no better or worse than any other person. Our government is a mess today at all levels and has been for a long time. There is nothing rational about most of our politicians or we would not find ourselves where we are now.
Quote:
Brewer cites God-given aid in governing
“I firmly believe that God has placed me in this powerful position of Arizona’s governor to help guide our state through the difficulty that we are currently facing.”
Gov. Jan Brewer
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/politics/309413
End Quote
lottakatz,
That’s just neat. I almost bought an R.Crumb calendar last week. 😀
Lottakatz,
I like that comic book. The drawings are neat.
“I am eminently qualified to discuss most aspects of human behavior due to my theoretical and experiential background in this discipline.”
—
billy,
1.) Who can argue with that!?! LOL! You are your own biggest fan. And you provide little reason for anyone here to take your claim of “eminent qualification” seriously.
2.) I am highly suspicious of your claim of 17 years of experience, and am less than impressed by the way you conduct yourself in these forums.
3.) I, for one, will NOT be responding to you any more, for any reason. You are UNREASONABLE and HIGHLY ERRATIC. If you try to pull me out with taunts and ridicule, asking me to submit to your questionable questions and perverse judgment, I ask others to see your statements for what they are, tactics of a school-yard bully (I think someone else said that too). If you are credentialed certified, I would be surprised.
Thank you,
George
Good luck.
lil billy boy,
I guess your keeper caught you and shut you down or did you do as Henry McCarty or William Bonnie coward out?
billy,
Notice that some the most accomplished, intelligent people within the confines of this blawg use their names and have given their ages. They have nothing to hide. There are a few other exceptions and I understand the need for anonymity; there are many valid reasons.
If you are a professional psychologist who has done research, then you understand that anonymous referees who refereed your research—if your papers were peer-reviewed—can be quite brutal under the cover of secrecy. However, when reviewers/referees must sign their names during the peer review process, they most often submit excellent and helpful remarks regarding your research.
Hence, my reason for inquiring about your age since you brought up your academic credentials and expertise.
Thanks.
Not even going to try for an awkward-at-best segue, it just seems reasonable to post this here:
For all the graphic novel fans and fundies out there- the book of Genesis (first 50 chapters) by R. Crumb is coming in 2009:
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/18/exclusive-sneak-peek.html
billy,
I don’t care how old you are or how many degrees you may or may not have or how many years of experience that you allege. I am only concerned with facts. Creationism is a fallacy that has been purposely invented to attempt to sneak religion into the public schools. Why would any Mayor want fake and contrived disciplines included in his schools?
lil billy boy,
try Adderall it is a brand-name psychostimulant medication composed of amphetamine and dextroamphetamine, which is thought to work by increasing the amount of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain.[1] Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, concentration and overall cognitive performance while decreasing user fatigue.
But see your Doctor first. Do not rely on a layman advice.