Nightline has been running a fascinating investigation into the Church of Scientology. This investigation includes this video of a walk-out of the spokesman for Scientology when asked simply about the beliefs of the church. According to the spokesman, it is “offensive” to be asked about what Scientologists specifically believe about the origins of man.
This is akin to the spokesman of the Vatican storming out when asked about Genesis.
The spokesman was specifically asked the “volcano” question. A volcano is often shown in advertisements for Dianetics. According to documents and former members, Hubbard (a failed science fiction writer) told followers that a galactic being named Xenu or Xemu had taken over as the rule of the “Galactic Confederacy.” Then, about 75 million years ago, he brought billions of people to Earth in spacecraft that looked remarkably like Douglas DC-8 airliners. Once here he put them in or around volcanos stuffed with H-bombs and then blew them up.
Hubbard wrote:
Simultaneously, the planted charges erupted. Atomic blasts ballooned from the craters of Loa, Vesuvius, Shasta, Washington, Fujiyama, Etna, and many, many others. Arching higher and higher, up and outwards, towering clouds mushroomed, shot through with flashes of flame, waste and fission. Great winds raced tumultuously across the face of Earth, spreading tales of destruction…
This released the famed “thetans” that stuck to survivors and are the subject of continual auditing. Now that is not so offensive is it? It could be worse, you could be blown up with H-bombs in a volcano by a crazed galactic warrior.
By the way, Xenu was eventually locked him away in “an electronic mountain trap” and still exists — possibly in the Pyrenees (where he can apparently be tormented by the Tour de France each year).
I’m curious to see how things will play out in the recent investigation of a suicide in Australia. The young solder had recently spent $25K on Scientology auditing and courses. The coroner’s request for his audit files was refused by Scientology, alternately claiming “confessional privilege” or just that the files had no value to the investigation. The files have been moved to the US, and a spokesman has stated, “Whether the files will be made available now or not is a question for America, not for us.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26259836-5006786,00.html
What is particularly distasteful to critics is that Scientology has a long history of leaking the information in those files in order to intimidate and defame ex-members. Today’s Salon article “Scientology’s No Good, Very Bad Week,” for example, discusses how Amy Scobee was smeared in that way. (Amy Scobee appears in the NightLine program).
The authorities must recognize that Scientology’s blatant misuse of audit files invalidates them from claiming “confessional privilege” when the purpose suits them. Their secrecy, in the name of religion, must be penetrated to keep abuse from occurring.
“Sorry, Sally but you asked. Do you believe in any of the following as part of your religion:”
I love a good religious discussion, as long as it doesn’t descend into “You’re an idiot for believing that”. Alas, that’s where they most often go.
Just about every religion believes in things that sound patently insane to someone who doesn’t believe in them. By definition (my definition, anyway), a religion must have some unprovable bit of something that flies in the face of commopn sense to even be called a religion. Without it, it’s just a philosophy or “belief system”. So pointing out the more outlandish tenets of Religion X to disprove its veracity is a (IMHO) weak argument. One could make not believing in (a) god sound just as outlandish, as many try to do.
The big difference in the context of this discussion is that most religions do not actively HIDE what they believe any more. Catholics/Christians do not cover up the fact that their religion is based on what is in the bible – you can walk into almost any bookstore on earth and buy any books you like that provide the details in exacting scrutiny, and many more books that discuss those details. Judaism does the same – I have always loved the fact that the Talmud, a series of books that discuss the teachings of Judaism, is many times longer than the collected teachings they discuss. This is true for almost every religion.
The more secretive a religion (or any “secret society”) is of its teachings, the easier it is to be mistrusted. Mormonism is an example, Scientology even more so. To the best of my knowledge, Scientology is the only religion that holds strict copyright on its teachings, and actively presecutes any unauthorized distribution of said teachings. When there’s only one way to gain knowledge of a religion, and that way is directly connected to payment, that’s an easy model to grow suspicious of.
It is perfectly possible to find help in ANY belief system. It’s amazing the things that can help you get through the day. So I have no problem believing that many people have bettered themselves through Scientology. Like most religions, the problems are not with the teachings themselves, but with the way those teachings (and interpretations of same) are twisted and misused by people in positions of power in said religions. It’s telling (I think) that so many of the people who are talking about Scientology now are stressing that it’s the management of the religion and not its teachings that they find fault with. I’ve heard this same story before in so many areas – founder of a company dies, and the second generation of people running turn it into something almost unrecognizable from its original form.
We flipped on Nightline partway through that “episode”(?), and my wife immediately commented, “Look at his (Tommy Davis’) body language!” It was very retracted and defensive, much earlier in the interview. I was really disappointed that Bashir decided to push Davis to walk out, instead of diffusing that moment or asking related questions. There were a hundred other questions he could have asked that would have boxed Davis in without giving him the excuse to run away.
But, Jonathan and Nightline should give some warning before disclosing the creation story – I seem to recall that people who learn of the evil Prince and the volcanoes and all that will develop some sort of disease (liver? lung?) if they are not adequately prepared to learn of it by the organization’s (expensive) training! Don’t blame me if we all end up in the same hospital waiting room for liver transplants…
I think, though, that the fact that high ranking SeaOrg folks are out and talking is a really major development.
Also, I hadn’t hear about Paul Haggis’ involvement with the organization or that he had freed himself of them. His objection to their homophobic beliefs (rumor has it that Tom Cruise became involved with them to “cure” him) points out a serious problem with their recruitment of and double standards for celebrities. Some, like Cruise, become obedient, but many others are going to speak their minds, regardless of the “volunteer labor” pampering they receive from the organization.
mespo727272,
BTW I think the original Fab Four (Matt, Mark, John, & Luke) sold more books — even without Amazon or whacky Tom Cruise hocking them.
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The First of the Fab Four did not even get published until 30 some odd years until after the “Crucifixion”. The last one being I believe Mark was some 230 years after the death as well.
I did some research on this back in 1985 and that was when I decided to go to law school rather than continue with religious studies.
A lot of the ecclesiastical work is based upon fiction. Which created a lot of internal friction. Believe this or not their is more politics there than in law school.
Mespo,
The also had thousand year head start.
Gyges:
“Remember folks, everyone’s religious beliefs sound equally ridiculous to non-members (including Atheism, and Amway).”
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Just another way of saying everyone’s an atheist to all religions but their own. As Dawkins says, I am just willing to go one religion more.
BTW I think the original Fab Four (Matt, Mark, John, & Luke) sold more books — even without Amazon or whacky Tom Cruise hocking them.
JT,
I’m pretty sure that Hubbard was if not a GOOD writer a successful writer. I believe he got 100+ books published under his own name and various pen names.
Remember folks, everyone’s religious beliefs sound equally ridiculous to non-members (including Atheism, and Amway).
Ok, Stel:
1. A fruit-a-phile, talking snake …
Paul Haggis has just left Scientology with a series of stinging letters.
http://www.movieline.com/2009/10/paul-haggis-renounces-scientology.php
mespo727272,
“I’m a Christian and if someone asks me what I believe, I’m going to tell them.”
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Sorry, mespo I believe in the following as part of my religion:
1. A talking snake that tempted men and women into doing evil;
“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee .” Gen 3:15-16
2. Parthenogenesis: Is an asexual form of reproduction found in females where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male. In plants, parthenogenesis means development of an embryo from an unfertilized egg cell, and is a component process of apomixis. The offspring produced by parthenogenesis are always female in species that use the XY sex-determination system. (Does not lend credence to a lil baby boy born in a manger. Maybe the practice of the Rabbi tutoring/schooling the young female children from age 5 until 13 at that time would lend one to believe something else;
3. Human resurrection: Luke 20:34-35 : “The children of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.”;
4. Human translocation through the sky without the use of technology: If you are speaking of Bilocation then I can answer as follows. St Germain was a master alchemist. And is the appearance of an individual in two places simultaneously. What exactly occurs in the phenomenon of bilocation is uncertain. The prevailing theory suggests that it is a projection of a double. In appearance to others the double may appear to be a solid physical form, or may be ghostly. Usually this double acts strangely and mechanically and does not acknowledge others when spoken to.
Although it is uncommon, bilocation is an ancient phenomenon. It is claimed to have been experienced, and even practiced by will, by mystics, ecstatics, saints, monks, holy persons, and magical adepts. Several Christian saints and monks were adapt at bilocation such as St. Anthony of Padua, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Severus of Ravenna, and Padre Pio of Italy. In 1774, St. Alphonsus Maria de’Ligouri was seen at the bedside of the dying Pope Clement XIV, when in fact the saint was confined to his cell in a location that was a four-day journey away.;
5. Divine ghosts: Other than the above and Jesus was supposed to do this act as well, I cannot readily answer unless you speak of the poltergeist.;
6. Persuading others to believe as you do through threats of everlasting damnation: Hitler did it, Herod, Cheney, W acting on Orders of Cheney, Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton and many more;
7. That, given all the myriad of religious mutations, only one of them is correct. Is there a final place to go other than purgatory? I am not sure…..
“1. A talking snake that tempted men and women into doing evil”
—
Through fruit eating.
Don’t sell it short.
“I’m a Christian and if someone asks me what I believe, I’m going to tell them.”
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Sorry, Sally but you asked. Do you believe in any of the following as part of your religion:
1. A talking snake that tempted men and women into doing evil
2. Parthenogenesis
3. Human resurrection
4. Human translocation through the sky without the use of technology
5. Divine ghosts
6. Persuading others to believe as you do through threats of everlasting damnation
7. That, given all the myriad of religious mutations, only one of them is correct
How is it offensive to ask one what they believe?
I’m a Christian and if someone asks me what I believe, I’m going to tell them.
JT’s article about Scientology makes it sound like the storyline of a failed primetime TV show. Too funny
Tactical retreat? We all know there was no Xenu. Instead when you die you get your own planet. Just ask any Mormon! LOL
By the way, Xenu was eventually locked him away in “an electronic mountain trap” and still exists — possibly in the Pyrenees (where he can apparently be tormented by the Tour de France each year).
I’m laughing so hard that I am choking, you will be hearing from my torts attorney, Turley.
Ah, Anne Archer’s son Tommy Davis, angry once again.
Who can forget this classic?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwTDvfjcUJU
Or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLG3teVnszQ
Bravo though. He’s really nailed that Tom Cruise impression.
This is just the reaction I have gotten from my e-mail to school board members asking if they feel it is acceptable to teach Creation Science along side evolution in our science classes. I got one and only one clear response. The rest are either ignoring my question or asking me to call and express my concerns (of the record).
2009! Why can’t someone state their views on what their religion’s origin story is? That’s not a unique or threatening question. Would this be considered a blasphemous request under the UN’s new rules?
What a fantastic religion! You can’t even ask a simple question. Which means…it’s a sham! There is no basis what so ever the foolishness known as Scientology except one man’s hallucinations.
Learn what else Scientology is up to by checking out some of their “defensive measures” at their “gold base” in California:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAIDER96eBg
There are a lot of other good videos on YouTube with interviews with former members and protests demonstrations. Some interesting information, to say the least.
….and then there were none…..