New York Closing Parks and Historic Sites Due to Budget Shortfalls

Gov. Paterson and parks Commissioner Carol Ash are planning to close dozens of parks and historic sites to help close the state’s $9.2 billion deficit. These sites include historic locations from the Revolutionary War as well as the cancellation of Fourth of July fireworks on Long Island. We continue this downward spiral across the country as we continue to spend billions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Moreover, many of these closures and cancellations will save a million dollars or less while the Obama administration is planning to pay for a short-range missile defense system for Israel of more than $200 million and increasing military aid to over $3.15 billion this year, here.

The Administration and Congress continues to gush money, including paying for the defense of foreign countries, as states are destroying their parks, educational systems, and public programs. This includes spending wildly on oil-rich countries like Iraq or affluent countries like Israel. Perhaps we can have tourists divert to Baghdad to see the olympic-sized swimming pool built at the demand of the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior (here) or to Israel to see the rocket defense system given to that country.

For the full story, click here.

54 thoughts on “New York Closing Parks and Historic Sites Due to Budget Shortfalls

  1. “We the People” are being sold out to the highest bidder, in an act of Constitutional subversion, most probably to ‘Globalization’ and the enthroned corporations. Lincoln, in a Jules Verne moment, forseaw this;

    “I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”
    — U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
    (letter to Col. William F. Elkins)
    Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY)

  2. This is going to really crimp the tea party’s style – free space and police protection – gone!

    This appears to be a state budget problem, not a federal budget problem, so no matter what is spent elsewhere, it won’t affect these parks.

    The worst problem is that the Federal government has threatened to cause the parks to revert to Federal control and then they can be sold to private companies.

    [In a letter dated March 31, National Parks Service Northeast Regional Director Dennis Reidenbach wrote that the move would put New York in “non-compliance” with the requirements for taking funding from the Land and Water Conservation Fund and Federal Land for Parks Program.

    “…NPS may initiate suspension and debarment procedures to have all Federal funds (e.g. Recreation, Housing, Transportation, Education etc.) withheld from the State of New York,” Reidenbach wrote. “In addition, closure of any park acquired through FLP could result in reversion of the property to Federal ownership and subsequent sale of the property.”


    Eileen Larrabee, a spokeswoman for the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation, said they don’t believe the proposed closures put the state in violation.

    “We are as committed to these parks and these public spaces as anybody else. We are dealing with the current fiscal crisis, and we simply do not have the funding to open all of these parks right now,” she said. “Ultimately we believe that these closures are temporary and not permanent, and we’re not converting the land. We would assert that the funding is not jeopardized.”]

  3. I agree with our learned professor but I’d also like to thank Wall Street, the banks, and all those elected and appointed officials who, since the late 90’s, have managed to destroy our nation’s economic health. The history books will name you forever.

    Gosh, I don’t think Obama’s stimulus plan is working very well.

  4. privatize them and let the “proprietors” make money and pay rent back to the state. Fee for service for this type of thing makes sense and would probably even make for a better experience. It might actually make the state some money instead of costing it money and it may even add some jobs to the local economy. Look what Dollywood did for central Tennessee.:)

    Look at Williamsburg, Virginia which is a privately run enterprise and was repaired through funds provided by charity, same with Mount Vernon in Alexandria and with Monticello and Montpelier in Orange County, Virginia.

    I cant say that this is a problem. All 4 of those places mentioned are usually packed.

  5. lobbying was started informally in the Grant Administration, coincidence? I wonder if Grant knew John Wilkes Booth?

  6. Byron

    It may come to the point we have to sell our national treasures to pay our debts, but I sincerely doubt it will be a “better experience” and I hope I’m gone long before that occurs. “Soylent Green” comes to mind.

  7. they’ve started closing libraries here in florida too. the public golf courses seem to be doing ok though.

  8. Almost all states are completely broke. Comparing all future obligations against future tax receipts, there is simply no way that the current rates of state spending can be maintained. Massive and fundamental cuts in spending are required.

    The primary driver of this imbalance is state paid wages and pension benefits demanded by public sector unions. Politicians grant massive pay and expand union jobs in order to get re-elected. In many states the largest campaign donors – by far – are public sector unions.

    This ends one of three ways:

    1. The federal government bails out states, using debt created by the US Treasury and “sold” to our central banking system. Also called inflation.

    2. States default

    3. Many state functions are federalized

    Here’s 30 seconds on politicians learning the raw power of unions:

  9. Pete:

    one reason for library closures could be the preponderance of inexpensive reading material available on the Internet and used book stores that sell paperbacks for $0.50. I personally think a library is a waste of time, buy a book on the Internet or down-load hundreds of volumes of out of copyright books for free.
    You can download the works of Shakespeare, Aristotle, Cicero, Epicurus, Thomas Aquinas, Sun Tzu, and others for free. The University of Pennsylvania or Penn State has a website that has numerous works of fiction available.

    Why do we need public libraries? Blockbuster and Net Flicks aren’t government owned and they make money. Barnes and Noble isn’t government run and they make money.
    It is time to start rethinking government ownership of much more than just monuments and libraries.

    Public schools, public transportation, local fire departments and police forces, local building officials, animal control services, and the post office are just some organizations that might do well with privatization. We need to lose the meme that government is able to do all things for all people. Maybe it is time to start privatizing what we can to save money.

  10. Buckeye:

    have you ever been to one of the “monuments” I mentioned. It isn’t “soylent green” by any stretch of the imagination. I have been to both Williamsburg and Mount Vernon, they are well run very positive places.

    You don’t think people in the private sector care as much about our history as government employees?

  11. Puzzling:

    there is a 4th way, a top to bottom overhaul of state government privatizing what can be privatized and having fee for services on things that cant be privatized. And looking at various options that would generate revenue for the state from private companies paying user fees to use state lands or other properties.

  12. Byron

    Not sure what you mean. Williamsburg and Mt.Vernon are run by non-profit associations – not private for-profit companies.

    I’ve been to both and no, I don’t think think private entrepreneurs care as much about history as they do about making money. Remember what they wanted to do with Gettysburg.

    Let them develop around the edges, we can’t do anything about that, but don’t sell our heritage off to them. We may have to do that some day, to pay our debts, but I hope I’m gone by then.

    Anyone that’s been to historic areas that weren’t protected by the government and/or foundations can see what can happen.

  13. can somebody please explain to me how the federal government spending any amount of money on anything affects the state of new york and its inability to balance its own budget.

  14. Puzz,

    Yeah, right … it’s all the average citizen, government worker, union member’s fault …. pure right-wing poppycock which leads to the mistaken belief that all states have to do is cut out the good-for-nothing public worker’s union and all financial problems will be solved without having to raise taxes or cut services.

    The median weekly pay for public sector workers is $842 and the median weekly pay for private-sector unionized workers is $839.

    The median income for “aged units” with a private pension and Social Security is $31,227. The median income for “aged units” with Social Security and a Federal pension is
    – an .8% difference. The number of public sector employees who receive affluent (100k) pensions is 1.3% of the public sector workforce.

    What about all the offshore outsourcing of Federal and State jobs, wherein U.S. taxpayer dollars are funding job creation in other nations? How did that work out … big savings … right … no savings. Geez … I wonder why.

    We all know why we’re in this mess … look to Wall Street … look to the big banks … look to all the elected and appointed public officials since the late 90’s … stop scapegoating the cop, the teacher, the trash collector.

  15. Buckeye:

    they are run by private foundations. they have to make a “profit” to help pay for upkeep on the properties. They are not run by the National Park Service.

  16. Ron Paul would already have the troops home from all over the world, not just the Middle East.

    (Go Rand go!)

    Democrats love war and destruction. Always have, always will. No reason to think otherwise.

    Code Pink: quiet as a church mouse, it’s Obama’s war now.

    You were a fool if you thought Obama would live up to his word and bring our troops home. Why were you a fool for believing Obama’s word? You were a fool because there was no evidence or track record to prove he could can be trusted to live up to his word.

    Ron Paul has decades of proof that he can be trusted.

    Then why did Obama win? He won because Democrats AND Republicans are not really interested in a man they could trust, they only pretend to be.

    And so, there goes another trillion dollars down the drain.

    If you think Obama cares for America you don’t have your head screwed on right.

    He wants her destroyed. So did George Bush.

    Why? Why would they want that?

    World government. It cannot happen with a powerful and independent USA

  17. I hope public libraries close down all over the country. I’ve had it with the library Nazis who do little but harass patrons and rig the book selections to their left-wing political ideology and then pretend they are open minded.

    Well who’s crying now Adolph?

    My goal right now is to buy off as much as I can from their used book shops (fire-sale anyone?). I’ve gotten some great cook books.

    It got real bad a number of years ago when the library Nazis sent the cops to arrest a very pregnant woman who didn’t realize she misplaced a book after she moved to a new home. Took her from home, they did.

    We have become accustomed to hearing about this abuse from the library Nazis over the years and that makes me glad they are worried about their jobs, these ungrateful snobs.

    I guess I never got over the loss of the card catalog. It was one of the best and most glorious ways of stumbling across gold.

    I’ll never forgive them for it. Ha!

  18. Buckeye:

    I’m sure that Tea Party members paid enough taxes to receive the “free” protection you mentioned.

    Loons on the left always think government services are “free”. Which is why they keep advocating that government steal other peoples money and give it to themselves.

    I’m for non-violent protest, even when my opponents do it.

    How about you?

  19. Tootie

    “I’m for non-violent protest, even when my opponents do it.” Yep.

    And I’m in favor of using my taxes to keep parks and historic sites open.

    How about you?

  20. Byron

    Wonderful! Now all we have to do is find a few more Rockefellers and DAR ladies to set up enough non-profit corporations to take care of all our parks and historic sites. That will save about $2 billion a year. Good on you. Don’t expect a tax refund, though.

  21. Buck: Not federal dollars and federal parks. There ain’t nuttin in the Constitution that permits it. If people want their state to protect that land, fine with me.

    Federal parks are playgrounds for snobby arrogant elites who have the time and money to go to them and don’t want to be bothered by the rabble they cannot stand but claim to have compassion for.

  22. Tootie

    Yeah, I know, those fees are a real burden. Especially for seniors and those with young children.

    That’s probably what keeps the hoi polloi out.

    I wish women should stop voting ’cause that certainly wasn’t in the constitution, either. We gave them the vote and now look what a fine mess we’re in.

  23. bUCKEYE:

    you are a brilliant man/woman:). Best analysis of what is wrong with our country I have seen in a long time.

  24. Buckey: I don’t care if it costs only a dime, there is nothing that permits the feds from seizing these lands. This is about unconstitutionality and it is about taking land that belongs to the states.

    I realize that people at this website cannot stand the Constitution, but that is still no excuse for not learning a little more about it.

    And I’m not referring to park fees, I’m referring to government possessing billions if not trillions of dollars in prime real estate and monitoring who and how one may enter into these lands so the elites have a nice place to go without having to pay for the lands themselves.

    And I’m referring to the elites who keep the riff raff away (strip malls and the such so they have something pristine to look at when they get a hankering for it without have to own the lands themselves.

  25. Byron:

    Murray Rothbard is a genius, but he is not my cup of tea. I subscribe to some of his theories, but I’m not an anarchist as I believe he is. He opposes the nation-state, I do not.

    One of my other main disagreements with Rothbard is the extent to which he promotes free markets. I believe free markets ought to be extremely free and supremely robust right up to the point where they ought to be limited by national security. He doesn’t think so.

    By national security I mean, when the American middle class has no high wage jobs our economy collapses, national security kicks in, and at is where I draw the line for free markets.

    I support the economic theories of Paul Craig Roberts. He believes (as I do) in limited free markets such that businessmen are not allowed to live here and prosper by taking their businesses overseas while reaping all the political benefits of living in a free society.

    If Americans wish to do business overseas they should be taxed in such a way that it would make more sense for them to stay and pay Americans good wages. Or they should get the hell out and renounce their citizenship.

    I also believe there are times when tariffs are necessary. Rothbard doesn’t. Tariffs are also Constitutional and meant for raising money to run the federal government. They can cause trouble, but if done wisely, they do work.

    If there are no governments (what Rothbard promotes) then there is interminable violence and conflict and ultimately a reordering back into nation-states and probably dictatorships. All this is counterproductive when we already have nations we just need to fix.

    In other words the abolition of the nation-state, which Rothbard advocates, makes impossible to conduct the economic system he promotes. That is illogical.

    And I don’t believe in a transference of people across borders for job competition. He does. I believe nations are essential if we ever hope for someone somewhere on the planet having the chance to live in freedom. A free exchange of people weakens the nation state, ruins the incomes of native born populations, destabilizes them, and leaves them ripe for tyranny.

    It is interesting to note that Adam Smith’s theory of wealth didn’t include the transfer of people. It only included the transfer of goods and products across borders. When neocons (who are big fans of outsourcing and and transference of people) proclaim they support Adam Smith and free market. Yet they don’t realize that Smith’s theory didn’t account for the outsourcing and transfer of populations they advocate. And it still hasn’t dawned on them that this isn’t working. They don’t call republicans stupid for nothing!

    Anyway, Roberts is a brilliant scholar and I also highly recommend his book “The Tyranny of Good Intentions”. Lawrence M. Stratton is co-author with him. It is a wonderful little primer on how we have lost “justice” in our justice system because we have forgotten the Anglo-Saxon tradition of law as it came to us through the Rights Of Englishmen.

    His comments on the corruption of the 5th amendment though plea bargaining are excellent. And his outting of Rudy Giuliani as a dirty rotten scoundrel is superb.

    I adore him.

    He has been thrown out of republican circles though he once edited National Review, and wrote and edited for the Wall Street Journal. They threw him out because he told the truth, in my opinion.

    Even the places he has written for recently have given him the boot because he keeps talking about the government’s impossible tale of how the twin towers collapsed.

    So he has recently quit writing columns, has a new book out, and seems to only trust talking with Alex Jones online!


    But I love him anyway.

  26. Tootie

    I guess it’s a question of which came first the chicken or the egg.

    It’s been a long time, but I vaguely remember being taught in high school civics about a big todo over something called the Louisiana Purchase, which came before states were formed in that territory. As I recall, it was a tea party icon, Thomas Jefferson, that was President when that was accomplished.

    Now I don’t know who has first say about what land should be place in the National Parks Services hands, but it seems to me that the $11 million we paid back then should give the Feds first choice. I could be wrong.

  27. Buck: Well, I see your point, but they didn’t make a park of the purchase! LOL

    Obviously it was understood that new territory would become states and not possessions controlled by the federal government.

    If I had to find a place in the Constitution which justifies the purchase, I’d have to put my finger on the treaty making power of the president. After that congress handled making states out of the new territory. Seems like everything was done on the up and up.

    I admire the federal powers, the men at that time, for having not created a federal “state” in the new territory. It would have competed with the new united states and been a threat.

  28. Tootie:

    I used to like Paul Craig Roberts but I don’t think he really gets it. I think your comment on forcing people to do something they may not want to do is why I disagree. Doesn’t if follow that if you can force a company to remain in America you can also force an individual to buy American? That sounds more like a dictatorship than a free economy.

    I think markets should be free across borders. Free trade, in my mind anyway, is essential to a healthy economy. One needs to look at why companies are sending factories overseas, it isn’t all about cheap labor. I would imagine that with transportation costs and the costs of doing business in a foreign country and the logistics involved it would not necessarily be cheaper to do business there. I am also under the impression that foreign labor is not nearly as efficient as American labor on an order of 2-3 times. I.E. for every widget a foreign factory produces an American factory can produce 2-3 widgets.

    Why do you think American companies send factories overseas?

    As far as Rothbard is concerned, the anarchy issue is definitely a turnoff. But that is the problem with much of hard libertarian thinking.

  29. Byron: It’s not that they couldn’t go overseas, it is just that it would cost them.

    Take Bill Gates for example. He is spending his wealth overseas instead of here where it is much needed. He became wealthy in the bosom of this our country. He received the benefits of citizenship (protection from invasion, freedom to become rich).

    And who does he help in our time of need? Foreigners. And foreigners who will never change their ways. Money down the drain.

    According to democrats, Americans are suffering such that the nation will not survive if the federal government doesn’t help them. Maybe if people like Gates had spent their money helping Americans have adequate health care we would not be in the position of having to face a totalitarian takeover of our system.

    People like Gates, who benefit more than most, ought not to be allowed to siphon off the system and then turn his back on the little guy who also paid taxes to provide him with the means to succeed.

    I think it was Thom Jefferson who said that if a man was richer than government (or some such similar thing) he shouldn’t be forced to hand over his money in his lifetime, but what money he has left after he distributes what he will to his family, ought to go to the government. I really cannot remember the specifics exactly.

    Now, I oppose such a thing because the government gets greedy and wants to take it all. My point is that Jefferson saw that some people can get exceedingly rich and thus have a greater responsibility.

    Warren Buffet (a loathsome man) admits our trade deficit is making us poorer. True. That means we have to have things to export. Sadly, products made overseas by foreigners are counted as our exports yet Americans never got paid for making them. This calculus has skewed the whole system for quite a while allowing government to misrepresent our export capacity in relation to the sustainability of the middle class, which is now collapsing after years of abuse.

    Paul Craig Roberts summarizes it this way

    “Americans lose both ways: first they lose good jobs in exchange for cheap foreign goods; then they lose the ability to pay for the foreign goods as the falling value of the dollar drives up the prices of the foreign goods. People trapped between falling incomes and rising prices are not people with a future.”

    This is a disaster and I don’t think anyone who reaps the benefits, monetarily, and as socially, ought to be able to stand above it all without a greater obligation especially when they have contributed to it.

    Roberts points out that during early on in Obama’s run for the White House, he proposed high tax CUTS for businesses who stay here. Where did that go? Out the door. He doesn’t really care about workers.

    Roberts writes “Ralph Gomory is one of America’s most distinguished mathematicians and co-author with William Baumol, past president of the American Economics Association, of the most important book on trade theory in 200 years, Global Trade and Conflicting National Interests. Gomory has pointed out that corporations break the link between their interests and America’s interest when they offshore their production for US markets. By producing abroad, they raise foreign GDP and lower US GDP. By producing abroad, they raise the productivity of foreign labor and lower the productivity of US labor. By producing abroad, they increase the productivity capabilities and trade position of other countries at America’s expense.”


    And finally, Buffet was saying something different when he wasn’t connected with the Obama admin. Roberts summarizes:

    “Warren Buffett, has proposed a way to bring US trade into balance. Exporters would be awarded import certificates in the dollar value of their exports. The certificates would be sold in a market to importers, who could import goods in the dollar amount of the certificates. This way imports cannot exceed exports. Moreover, as the certificates would be profit to exporters, it encourages more exports. Free trade theory never intended for economies to be in permanent trade disequilibrium.”

    Why aren’t they doing that?

    I’ll tell you why. Obama and crew (Bush too) intentionally want to collapse our economic system, create chaos, completely overthrow the government and the Constitution, subjugate the USA to regional or global governance (through a world monetary unit if necessary) and bring in the Council on Foreign Relations long time goal: the New World Order.

    That is also what amnesty is about (importing disloyal hostile foreigners willing to accept a north American union scenario).

    If Obama and congress would stop spending, slash budgets, we could hold off the collapse, perhaps, while we implemented new export policies which would help build up the middle class again.

    But he cannot do that since America would prosper.

    Some federal marshals need to get up some gumption and arrest Obama, Pelosi, and Reid for sedition.

  30. Tooties,

    Who feeds you? Really, you cannot know all of the specific information that you disseminate and still be as big of a fool as you come off as. You must cut and paste a lot other wise, you are a bigger fool that I thought you were. Maybe others disagree with me.

  31. Damn that Bill Gates helping all those ferners!

    Aspire Public Schools Secures $90 Million Bond Financing for Permanent Facilities with Guarantees from Gates and Charles and Helen Schwab Foundations

    12 Major Foundations Commit $500 Million to Education Innovation in Concert with U.S. Department of Education’s $650 Million “Investing in Innovation” Fund

    Foundation Giving $110 Million to Transform Remedial Education

    Cabrillo College’s Academy for College Excellence Receives $3.6 Million to Expand Academic Support Program for Under-prepared Students

    United Way of King County Awarded Grant For Work to End Chronic Homelessness

    Washington Families Fund Launches New Strategy to Prevent and End Family Homelessness

    Oxfam America Strengthens Support for Gulf Coast Organizations Advocating for Affordable Housing and Workers’ Rights

    Foundation Grants $300,000 For New Facility for Portland’s Homeless Kids

    All this and more can be found at:

  32. vlf2112:

    I you are so attracted to me. I’m blushing. Look at all the little bunny trails I send you on too. It’s charming. If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were smitten.

    Oh, wait. I forgot. You hate me.

    Never mind (in my best Edith Ann voice)

    If Bill Gates was doing much great work here with his fabulous wealth (as you seem to imply) we would notice it. But, not only is he not making any substantial impact with his money, he is actually throwing his money away and perhaps doing harm.

    One example of that is is Microsoft’s High-Tech High School. it’s likely a waste of money and another tragic thing to do to high-risk students. Instead of investing in proven methods of educating high-risk students he pours his money into another unproven experimental education scheme. Another in a long line of such guinea pig experiments.

    Here is an article about the school

    I don’t find any current references about it online so I don’t have any substantial information about its success or the test scores of these kids. Have they risen or fallen? What is the graduation rate from that school? What kind of grades are they getting in math or science? Is the school even still open?

    I fear that men like Bill Gates do this kind of stuff so that people like Chris Matthews and people at the Huffington Post won’t call for their executions.

    Leftists are a murderous bunch.

    Still there are more effective ways and people like Gates ought to be smart enough to find them. For example, Johns Hopkins did a study in the late eighties or nineties (I cannot remember exactly when, but if you need something more specific I can dig the book out from the muck in my outhouse for you later after I’ve shut down the whiskey still, slaughtered the pig, and pulled my last tooth out.)

    The study was at a Baltimore Maryland inner city school and, if I recall correctly, (it has been so long since I read the book and honkies like me are prone to mix things up so much with our inferior minds, I’m just not 100 percent sure it was Baltimore. But I am 99 percent sure. Gee, I wonder what 99 from a 100 is?

    Let me get my fingers out and count. Okay, I’ll do that later.

    Anyway, the disadvantaged kids used a curriculum tried and tested from a distinguished private (and correspondence) school called Calvert. Nothing changed in the lives of these children but the curriculum. And their test scores rose. They were learning. It worked. It proved that curriculum was the likely key to good education. And I’d say it goes a long way to proving that success doesn’t come from fancy expensive school buildings, new parents, fancy computers, or eye-popping technology from rich fat cats who want to avoid the fate of the French aristocracy during the French Revolution.

    Oh oh. Did I just say French aristocracy? How the hell did a dumb hick like myself knowed about dem dare French arist-O-Cats gettin their heads lobbed off?

    No matter.

    The JHU and Calvert study is the sort of proven success people like Bill Gates won’t apply themselves. Gate’s High School is now about four years old. I doubt that these kids have achieved any real “learning”. Certainly NOT like the learning Gates was provided.

    Your puny little list really highlights my point: he isn’t doing much for Americans, could be doing some harm, AND he is throwing money down the drain in foreign countries where the money would be effective ONLY if Gates was running things.

    You cannot help these countries from the outside, they have to help themselves. This has been proven time and again. He is wasting his wealth, the wealth he gathered because America is great, because Christians (and other groups too, but mostly Christians) built for themselves a country in which great things could be achieved, and in which later generations of Christians are being punished for, especially by those who handle the law.

  33. vlf2112: opening sentence “My, you are so attracted to me”*

    I reread it three times. Sorry. The pork-rind crumbs on my monitor must have gotten in the way of my editing.

    (digging my toe into the shag rug)

  34. Tootie:

    I disagree with Paul Craig Roberts on trade. Look at what Ford is doing in China and India is a huge market as well. If you compete globally what should happen is that certain countries will do somethings more efficiently than others and the price of goods and services should fall. This is a boon to the consumer. The idea of falling wages in a healthy economy is a myth. Falling wages occur in poor economies, something has sent our factory production jobs overseas although there are many small factories that still remain.

    If you think about the American economy we don’t make cars in every state nor do we produce steel in every state. We produce steel and cars where they can be produced efficiently for whatever reason, inertia, large skilled labor pool, raw materials, location to transportation, etc. So why should America produce everything we consume? We don’t need to anymore and so some production is sent overseas where capital can be used more effectively for certain goods and services.

    Just because a job goes overseas does not mean a net loss of jobs in America. What about the resellers of those products and the consumers? For example a small steel fab shop in the states makes sound walls from steel plate. They purchase the plate overseas and mill it here. They cannot afford to buy American because of the cost of plate steel produced here. If they had to buy American (which is what Bush tried to do a few years ago) they would be forced out of business and jobs would be lost. USX is the company that pushed Bush to do this because they said it would protect US jobs, only problem was it only would protect USX jobs and there were far more small companies that depended on less expensive foreign steel. The net result of that “experiment” would have been a loss of American jobs.

    This type of thing occurs daily and that is why markets should remain free across international borders. Free markets work if allowed to work. Human intervention causes problems because no human being is able to predict the unintended consequences of market intervention/manipulation.

    And please stop with the all progressives/leftists are murderers. It isn’t correct. The thought of Mespo or Gyges or Slartibartfast or Buddha as stone cold killers is laughable at best. Other than that I welcome your posts and your thoughts on various issues. I am still laughing about you thinking me a Marxist. Although I am definitely not opposed to workers having an ownership position in a company, that actually makes good sense-an owner has skin in the game while an employee does not.

  35. Are you one of those self-loathing homosexuals/lesbians, Toots? It’s okay if you’re honest with yourself. It can be quite freeing, actually. I know a couple of people who were in that situation, and they are now much better people for it.

    Well, whatever. It has no bearing on my life whatsoever.

  36. VLF2112:

    Tootie is, by her own admission, happily married and female.

    She has balls though, you may not agree with what she says but she takes a lickin and keeps on tickin.

    I actually think if people would not jump her she would respond differently. She and I are having a pleasant argument/disagreement over free trade. I don’t agree with her at all but she is cordial and she hasn’t called me a Marxist at least not yet.:)

  37. Byron:

    “Tootie is, by her own admission, happily married and female.

    She has balls though,…”


    So does the African Wild Ass – and the commentary is remarkably similar.

  38. Blouise,

    You wrote

    Puzz, Yeah, right … it’s all the average citizen, government worker, union member’s fault …. pure right-wing poppycock

    From today’s New York Times, above the fold:

    In Yonkers, more than 100 retired police officers and firefighters are collecting pensions greater than their pay when they were working. One of the youngest, Hugo Tassone, retired at 44 with a base pay of about $74,000 a year. His pension is now $101,333 a year…

    Public sector union contracts are bought from politicians and paid back with power. They will bankrupt hundred of municipalities unless the federal government takes over municipal pension obligations. Bankruptcy is the preferable option; these contracts by government for government are outright theft.

  39. Mespo:

    So does the African Wild Ass – and the commentary is remarkably similar.

    does it look like this:

  40. puzzling,

    Sorry boyo, but until the thieves on Wall Street have to endure at least a wrist slapping for the billions in loses they caused pension plans and the billions in tax dollars they sucked out of our pockets to save themselves from their self induced economic chaos, I’m not going to join you in scapegoating a few safety forces workers.

    Police and Fire risk their lives to keep you safe and you begrudge them a secure retirement to the point that you blame them for the mess caused by greedy bankers and crooked politicians.

    It’s right-wing spin … an attempt to blame the little guy for the mistakes made by the big guys in government and on Wall Street. It worked with you … doesn’t work with me.

  41. Blouise,

    By that “lives on the line” argument, military troops in all of our undeclared wars should be earning $250K+ as well.

    Do I begrudge a cop a “secure retirement” at age 40? Of course I do. That proposition is more like winning a lottery than working a lifetime to retirement.

    Do I think they put their lives on the line? Not any more so than many other lines of work. Neither police or firefighters are near the top of most dangerous professions. In fact, there are fewer police deaths now than there were in the 1950’s, and we easily have several times the number of LEO’s.

    Pension plans are a mess not because of Wall Street losses, but because of unrealistic assumptions about future returns that have been made along the way in this giant ponzi scheme. These assumptions were made so that taxpayers wouldn’t know how much they were really on the hook for as benefits and payouts ballooned. A lot of these pension plans were also the largest speculators in real estate and other bubble sectors.

    And to make up this risk, these plans are taking even more risk today. Why not? If they fail, taxpayers will be asked to make up the difference. If they succeed (which they won’t), benefits can be raised even further.

  42. Sorry, Byron but while Toots may be happily married, I’m assuming to a like-minded individual, her posts tell a different story. IMHO, she’s a bigoted and angry, white “christian” woman who despises anyone and anything that differs outside of her wee bubble, especially those who are more educated than she is. And, being a “christian” you would think compassion for a fellow human would be present – I don’t think she would know what compassion was if it up and kicked her squarely in the behind.

    She consistently disparages minorities; she consistently disparages all Muslims based on the actions of a few; without any provocation, she consistently makes snide, uncalled for, and highly inflammatory statements against anyone whose views differs from hers, based on the assumption they are dirty leftists, murdering democrats, and other choice names. She consistently blames others for her lack of education, and is venomous and contemptuous towards those with higher educations, and those who believe in tangible evidence such as evolution, instead of her faith-based belief in creationism.

    She’s more than welcome to stay behind and long for days passed when blacks knew their place, homosexuality was firmly in the closet, religion trumped science, and when bleeding someone out was considered the height of medical technology. I, on the other hand, prefer to move forward, and evolve with the times, learn new things, and view the world in astonishment with new technologies, new findings and facts.

    You may equate her “balls” to courage; I equate her “balls” to cowardice – afraid of changes that have come, and will continue to come, to this country and this world.

  43. Puzzling:

    Is it the fault of the firefighters and police officers? They sign on to work for 20 or 25 years and be able to retire. Part of the job’s benefits and accepted by both parties. I would probably not have such a generous retirement but pay them more and let them invest their own money. I think a cop and a firefighter probably could not effectively work until 65 or 70 unless at a desk. The physical demands of both jobs are for younger men. So in some cases it makes sense for an individual who is not going to move into management to retire at between 40 and 50, after 25 or 30 years on the force.

    The system needs to be taken away from politicians and kept on a separate book that no one has access to. Had this been done from the beginning we would not be having a problem with pension and social security insolvency. Part of the reason that government tolerates illegal aliens is that a good many have SS cards that never get drawn on, it helps the solvency.

    The entire system is messed up from top to bottom and needs systemic restructuring, I leave it to your imagination to figure out what I envision as the “fix”.
    “Let it be” would be a good place to start, well actually that is the desired final state.

    Your thoughts on that ever happening? Mine is slim to none in my lifetime. I don’t think the Tea Party or the republicans have the intellectual ammunition to change anything more than a diaper.

  44. puzzling,

    I remember 9/11 … everybody running out of the buildings and all the firefighters and police running into the buildings trying to save lives and help the civilians.

    Originally it was the very fact that in signing up for fire or police one knew it meant putting one’s life on the line and so to make the job more attractive good pensions and benefits were offered.

    As to the volunteer military … I’m sure they’re next on the “let’s cut their pensions” list. Hell, they already tried to cut their medical benefits. Quite a few generals, colonels, majors, captains, lieutenants, warrant officers, sergeants and their comparative ranks in the Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force, and Marines who lived long enough to enjoy their 20 and out are enjoying their retirement … undeserving wretches!

    Hey, how about CIA, DIA, DEA, and FBI … oh … U.S. Marshalls too … how about them? Think of all the tax dollars you could stuff in your pockets if you cut their retirements too.

    Good lord, puzz … you could gobble down a whole lot of tax savings and geez, even have enough to invest with your friendly Wall Street goon or Big Bank golfing buddy.

    You stated: “Pension plans are a mess not because of Wall Street losses, but because of unrealistic assumptions about future returns that have been made along the way in this giant ponzi scheme.” Yeah, right … that’s why Goldman bet against the derivatives … sold short … they made no unrealistic assumptions and thus pocketed billions. Aren’t they also involved in the mess with Greece and Spain? Oops … not supposed to talk about that are we?

    I understand you’ve bought the package … move on to some one else ’cause it’s a no sale with me.

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