In the video below, police appear to shoot a man in a wheelchair who was armed with knives and may have stabbed an officer. There are a number of questions raised by this video over the use of lethal force.
What is curious is that citizens were next to the man when the police arrive and traffic is still moving by the scene despite the possible use of the weapons. The greatest concern is why the police did not use non-lethal force such as a taser or isolate the man while they cut off traffic and tried to reason with him. There were people standing around the scene shortly before the shooting and cars passing by.
One account states that the police first used pepper spray and fired a non-lethal ‘beanbag’ round. Some witnesses state that the man had only been slashing tires and had already thrown his knives to the ground when he was shot. However, the San Francisco papers are reporting that the man had stabbed a police officer in the shoulder at a mental health services center and that he threw a knife before being shot in the groin.
Under constitutional law and common training rules, officers are generally allowed to use lethal force when they are being threatened or to protect others. This can include a fleeing armed suspect. The question is whether the use of additional non-lethal force would have ended the standoff since the man was armed with a knife rather than a gun. With at least seven officers present at the scene, he could have been isolated to protect the public. There is a reluctance, however, to second-guess officers in such a situation. If he did stab an officer and was waving a knife, most courts would find the force justified. This assumes that reports that he had thrown away the knife are proven incorrect. That would leave the question as to whether, as a policy matter, the officers should have opted for less lethal means to subdue the clearly disturbed individual.
BBB,
I have asked you twice before.
Do you have any police training whatsoever?
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpn_4Eb-ocQ&fs=1&hl=en_US]
The guy in the chair was shot with a real bullet when you hear the pops, not with a beanbag gun. A beanbag gun was used first but it didn’t stop him, so the cops then used real bullets AFTER the guy threw his knife away. Notice that there were only 2 shots and seven or eight cops. So most cops realized there was no danger, that the guy was surrendering his weapon; there were, however, a couple of trigger happy criminals in cop suits who blasted him.
No tasers used because SFPD does not use them. Despite the video, cops here in SF are nowhere near as deadly as those across the bay in Oakland (though I would say the two cops who fired their guns should be stripped of the right to carry weapons for the rest of their lives. In my opinion, that’s the least that should happen to any cop who shoots an unarmed person).
BBB
In close-quarter situations a knife can be much more deadly than a gun.
I asked you to define your zone of harm because I don’t think you adequately understood the ability to throw a knife
sitting greatly reduces the power of a throw. on the video you posted watch the throwers body.
Good lesson to learn that even people in wheelchairs should carry something, or be adequately trained to defend themselves, against unlawful actions by people like that officer.
lottakatz,
I’m pretty sure I heard the “tink” of the knife hitting something just before I heard two shotgun blasts. The truck going by obstructed what I think was the throwing of the knife. Then I saw the man in the wheelchair roll over towards the curb and exit the wheelchair. If he was subsequently shot with a pistol, I didn’t hear it. Something else might have taken place after the video stopped.
BBB, from your link: “Following some sort of altercation, the man stabbed one of the officers and then was shot with a less-than-lethal beanbag weapon, Chiang said. When the suspect did not surrender, he was also shot with a handgun, he said.”
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Patric, “2. If you think everybody in a wheelchair is “handicapped” you haven’t spent much time on the streets. Some of them can run faster than you or I.”
He was capable of at least standing and was seen to be standing from the reports.
lottakatz,
In close-quarter situations a knife can be much more deadly than a gun.
I asked you to define your zone of harm because I don’t think you adequately understood the ability to throw a knife.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoqqZBkh2g&fs=1&hl=en_US]
When a guy is sitting in a wheelchair, shooting him in the leg with a beanbag probably would have little effect. Shoot him in the lower abdomen, and hitting the groin area, might hurt like all hell, but it is not lethal.
If the account I read is correct, he was shot by the same officer that he stabbed. If that’s correct, I’m glad that the guy he stabbed was able to be the one who kicked him in the nuts. That’s justice in action.
I’ve been on the “mean streets” for 32-years. My partners & I have witnessed more officer-involved shootings than we can count. I’ve treated people who have been shot 40 times by cops. I’ve treated cops who’ve been shot in the throat.
Generally as a rookie when you hit the streets, the typical Paramedic associates closely with those in like-uniform. It’s only natural. But if you stay in the business long enough, you see the good, the bad, the ugly of both sides, so after a few thousand responses, you stop taking sides.
Sometimes the cops really do over-react – I’ve had them threaten to arrest me for demanding handcuffs be removed from gunshot suspects, in order to save a life. Most times, when all the evidence is in, lo & behold, they really haven’t overreacted at all. When it comes to violence and it’s capabilities, they know far more than the rest of us about the downside of playing the “knives vs guns fairness” game.
I would expect – with the apparent aggregate IQ of this web-group – folks here to be a bit slower to assume. But if you just can’t help yourself, start by assuming these:
1. The cops might know more about the suspect than we “witnesses.”
2. If you think everybody in a wheelchair is “handicapped” you haven’t spent much time on the streets. Some of them can run faster than you or I.
When it comes to the streets, what you see is not always what you get.
Why didn’t they just cuff him and leave him in the road for someone to “accidentally” run over (like another incident reported in this blog a little while back)?
BBB, Zone of danger is how far he could reach or throw. If he threw a knife previously then one can reasonably presume that the police moved back a commensurate distance.
Rubber bullets and beanbags do kill people, it depends on distance to target, 10′ minimum is recommended for their (rubber bullet) use I have read in articles about rubber bullet deaths.
Again, I thought he was killed and he was not. I will though be interested in finding out what was used, a rubber bullet or lead bullet.
How about a net, or two or three to imobilize him? It ain’t macho but he’s easy to surround and toss things at. How about throwing a trash can at him to knock him over? I’m for a tailored response, what was the hurry, he was virtually surrounded.
I’m for putting some steps between tasers and guns (projectile weapons) whenever possible.
They apparently hit him in the groin, a no, no from the enclosed site link.
http://www.theppsc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=446
“Beanbag and pepper ball guns are never supposed to be fired at a suspect’s face, groin or vital organs. Instead police target the legs or lower abdomen.
But in the heat and confusion of a violent confrontation, the cross hairs can miss the intended target. That happened in 2004, when Boston police responded to rioting Boston Red Sox fans. Officers were armed with compressed-air guns that fired plastic balls of pepper talc – similar to paintball guns. An innocent bystander was hit in the eye and bled to death.
That’s one reason why the once “non-lethal” weapons are now called “less-than-lethal,” Drake says.
That’s why beanbag weapon manufacturers warn that the bags can break ribs, fracture skulls and rupture the heart or kidneys.
Amnesty International and the International Association of Chiefs of Police cite hundreds of deaths from pepper spray, Tasers and beanbags.”
rafflaw,
According to the reports that I read, they did pepper spray him.
I’ve got no problem with the use of non-lethal force on a guy, confined to a wheelchair or not, that is wielding a knife and has already stabbed one officer.
lottakatz,
I still don’t understand your “zone of harm” or your implied usage of a tranquilizer dart as an alternative.
Here’s the best timeline with updates that I could find.
http://sfappeal.com/news/2011/01/reports-sfpd-shoots-wheelchair-bound-man-in-soma.php
It indicates that the man was in a wheelchair, but not confined to it, and that the instrument of non-lethal force was a beanbag.
We should be happy for non-lethal weapons. It was only a few years ago that this guy would have been shot with a real bullet, and it would have been ruled justified.
This is one more case of over reaction by the police force. Even if he still had a knife in his possession, his threat to officers was pretty small considering the situation. The one time that a Tazer could have been useful they don’t use it. Maybe they would have to get closer to him to use it? Why not pepper sptray him again and again? I have been gassed in the 70’s and that pepper spray stuff is nasty and it would stop me.
My error, he didn’t die. I still stand by my statement. I can’t find a link that says it was a beanbag that was the effective shot but did find a link stating that it was a rubber bullet from a handgun.
lottakatz,
“Even if he had a knife or knives. The police were well out of the zone of harm and if the guy started throwing knives all they had to do was move back farther and keep others out of the danger zone.”
Please share with us what the “zone of harm” is when someone has a knife (of yet unidentified design).
“This is what a tranquilizer dart is for.”
Are you serious? You want the police to use tranquilizer darts?
If the police would have used a tazer, the same people would be crying foul. A beanbag is probably the least dangeous use of force.
“Again, this was an execution.”
Sure. Execution by beanbag.
No, it’s not ok to stand back and shoot somebody. Even if he had a knife or knives. The police were well out of the zone of harm and if the guy started throwing knives all they had to do was move back farther and keep others out of the danger zone. This was an execution. It doesn’t matter what he had done ‘earlier’, at the time he was shot his threat was or could have been neutralized.
This is exactly what tasers were invented for. This is what a tranquilizer dart is for. This is what negotiators and psychologists are for.
It seems to me that now it’s ok for police to use tasers for what normally words or some measure of physical force is appropriate and guns for what normally a taser should be used for. I’m very concerned that this steady escalation of violence is going to make the above scene commonplace.
Again, this was an execution.
I saw this video yesterday. At first, I was outraged by the use of what I thought was lethal force.
The person filming the incident (the same person who is heard saying “That’s unnecessary” after the shots were fired) is the same person who says “He’s got a knife”. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to consider that the man in the wheelchair did have a knife.
The shots (now known to be non-lethal beanbags) appear to have been fired at about the same time as the man was throwing the knife. Without additional evidence to the contrary, I think the use of non-lethal force was justified.
As for shooting him in the groin: I’ve never fired a beanbag out of a shotgun. I don’t know how much it would deviate from the intended point of impact.
Ye gaaaaaaawds the SFPD looks bad in that video…
The man in the wheelchair may have had a knife…
He may have even stabbed a cop earlier…
But a wheelchair?
Shooting someone in a wheelchair?
AFTER he threw the knife away, which it appear he did?
I tend to be PRO-police, btw…
But incidents like this, or Oscar Grant, just make it increasingly hard to be on their side…
I guess they(the police) felt threatend.Wow!