Four men, including three Catholic priests, were arrested in Philadelphia for allegedly raping and assaulting boys. Most notably, a former official in the Philadelphia Archdiocese was also arrested for his role in facilitating the abuse by failing to stop the priests — a charge that could be replicated in other cases involving the Church.
Father Edward Avery, 68, and Father Charles Engelhardt, 64, were charged with allegedly assaulting a 10-year-old boy at St. Jerome Parish from 1998 to 1999. Father James Brennan, another priest, is accused of assaulting a different 14-year-old boy in 1996. In addition, Bernard Shero, 48, a teacher in the school, is charged with allegedly assaulting the same boy involved in the Avery and Engelhardt charges in 2000.
The most interesting charge was that of Monsignor William Lynn, who served as the Secretary for Clergy for the under former Philadelphia Archbishop Anthony Bevilacqua. He was charged with two counts of endangering the welfare of a child in connection with the alleged assaults. Lynn, 60, allegedly endangered the children by not preventing access to these victims by these men despite his knowledge of the allegations in his role as lead investigator of abuse allegations. This could be the most difficult to prove but the most significant precedent that would come from the case.
The accounts below state that “The grand jury believed that over 30 priests have remained in ministry in Pennsylvania despite solid, credible allegations of abuse.” Even with the past scandals, that is a shocking number.
The men are accused of raping alter boys and others boys in their care in cars, parks, their bedrooms, and other locations.
“By no means do we believe that these are the only two parishioners who were abused during this period,” Williams wrote in the grand jury report.
James Brennan, 47, allegedly used his access as a family friend to rape a 14-year-old. When confronted by the parents, he denied the allegations. The boy later committed suicide.
Jonathan Turley
ok Chan, I’ll play your hair-splitting game for a few mins.
You said: “Since you have admitted that you don’t know good from evil how do you know these priests did a bad thing?”
I have never said that *I* don’t know good from evil, my statement is as you cut and pasted:
I think it is impossible for man to actually know ‘good or bad’…we are not G*d.
We can however understand and seek to refrain from causing
‘harm’.
I think if people spent more time actually pondering if their actions are ‘harnful’ rather than ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, the world would be a much safer and pleasanter place”
—
So, I answered you on that other thread but I’ll try again.
If you cannot understand what causes harm, there are laws and rules to help you in your discernment. Evaluating if your actions will cause another person ‘harm’ will help you to distinguish if you are actually using your higher faculties objectively or just feeding your jonesing instincts….;)
Good vs Evil automatically pits 1 element against another adversarially in a black vs white sometimes false dichotomy. If a law says don’t do x…it is right to follow the law….unless you are speeding to the hospital with a passenger who has stopped breathing. That said, to follow the law should not be in question unless there is a conflict with it…and then I would still be the last person to break a law unless it were to add to harm or an even greater injustice….which can also happen.
While there is black and white in the world I would venture that greater than 99% of it is some shade of gray….and even better…Color!
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5L3k4xoJWY&w=480&h=390]
Chan L., instead of badgering Wootsy’s still a Cat over a charged issue, why don’t you instead consult the hundreds of accounts of adults who were sexually assaulted by priests as children, and decide for yourself what harm was caused.
Then look at our laws, and what they call for, to get an idea what society thinks the harm is.
The deliberate mystification of it all, e.g. the introduction of false goods and unprovable evils based on a deity with SERIOUS anger management issues, adds considerably to this (alleged) harm.
Good and evil speak to intent, and you know what? I do not care. I am not going to entertain arguments of intent with a diseased mind. I deem the outcome harmful to children.
Woosty:
here is where you wrote it:
“Woosty’s still a Cat
1, February 8, 2011 at 7:26 pm
“Which leads me to ponder, “Is evil good or bad?”
What if the proper answer is simply, “Yes.”?” Dr. Harris
——————
I think it is impossible for man to actually know ‘good or bad’…we are not G*d.
We can however understand and seek to refrain from causing
‘harm’.
I think if people spent more time actually pondering if their actions are ‘harnful’ rather than ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, the world would be a much safer and pleasanter place”
So I ask again if it is impossible for men to know good or bad how do you know what these priests did is “harmful”?
I havent done anything to your words, I have asked you a simple question.
Wootsy’s still a Cat, the law would find me as innocent as they find these priests. And that is the disparity, one which we must endure to enjoy a civilized society.
Under the law, it falls upon James Filler to prove my accusations false.
James, “I am free to accuse anyone of anything. ”
…to a point…you do not have the freedom to falsly accuse…
James Filler, that is because our minds are not courtrooms. Left to only our minds, we would have stoned these three men to death long ago.
Instead, we create legal systems to dispense a more uniform, civil approach to actual outcomes, ones which attempt to compensate, but too often punish needlessly.
I am free to accuse anyone of anything. I am also free to express my outrage, as in cases like these, 1,001 times repeated, where there is smoke, there is fire. I am free to channel that outrage into demand for action from both prosecutors and laity for remedy. None of these freedoms violate the freedoms of other citizens.
You will also notice that lack of channeled outrage has allowed this to continue FOR CENTURIES.
Silence, my Dear James Filler = Death.
It will be up to persecutors and jurors to determine actual guilt. That they did not step down as priests when they discovered the leadership of the church is foul to its core speaks volumes to their character.
But to suggest we are not entitled to outrage because the law finds them innocent is ridiculous, and demonstrably dangerous to children.
As Blouise mentioned, the court should deny bail. The Vatican cannot be trusted not to spirit these pigs away into hiding.
How do you get a nun pregnant?
Dress her up as an alter boy….
what these men did if they are guilty is horrible. However how come when it comes to the Catholic Church priest are not innocent until proven guilty. they are guilty even before a trial. they are guilty and at times wrongfully accused. It seems as the close minded such as some of the people commenting have no common sense.
BiL-
“Like all child molesters, no Earthly punishment is enough, but that shouldn’t stop prosecutors from doing the worst they can to such vermin.”
and yet, if more people used ‘harm’ in their platforms of discernment, recognition of and prevention of causing it, I don’t think it would take so long to get these pervs (and a few others as well) off the streets…
it is lucky for some that we as a society have evolved beyond eye 4an eye….but there are only so many cheeks to turn before even the most peace loving soul gets angry!
“You have yet to characterize WHAT I’ve said, correctly.
You do to my words what those ‘priests’ did to those little boys.”
You expected something different from someone who makes up the meanings of words, W=c? Someone who goes to great ends to rationalize that greed (a selfish and excessive desire for more of something – as money- than is needed and a manifestly evil and destructive behavior in almost every ethical, philosophical and religious tradition) is good? He’s only going to continue to distort your words in order to maintain his delusional self-rationalizations. The nuance of what you say will never register as he has a malformed frame of reference to what constitutes “good” in the first place, namely as long as it is good for him then he could care less about consequences.
“Nasty” is an appropriate adjective for sociopaths.
They cannot be trusted with even the simplest things let alone language.
Speaking of breaches of trust and sociopaths, as to the priests and laity involved in this scandal?
Like all child molesters, no Earthly punishment is enough, but that shouldn’t stop prosecutors from doing the worst they can to such vermin.
I think the only way things will ever change in the RCC is first and formost a change in the way the church gets boys to go to seminary to become priests….first and formost…..no more minor children in to seminary prep ….the age for entry needs to be at least 21 no more boys in seminary prep out of grade school no more seminary for boys just out of high school….think about it no wonder so many of these guys are so screwed up…I know there is a term for what happens to these boys who know nothing and growup in such a perverse life, in laymans terms sexual retardation is what it means, I guess if there is one thing Catholics can be thankful for is the nuns…they were the buffer between the priests and the girls……….otherwise I really believe this whole horrible situation would be a hundred times hell a thousand times worse..
Chan, I would venture to say that IMHO it is very good that this evil is being brought to light.
That said, the other thread and my statements in it are to be found on that other thread. If you want to “quote” me, feel free….word for word, with proper source. You have yet to characterize WHAT I’ve said, correctly.
You do to my words what those ‘priests’ did to those little boys.
nasty
It’s not bad enough single priests have the power to destroy a whole diocese, we have to have gangs of them, aided by the laity.
This happens each and every Mass in which a collection plate is passed, because this blood-money will only go to pay lawyers to defend that which cannot be defended. The laity continues to be complicit in child molestation through their silence, and zombie-like infatuation with a cruel death-cult.
Enough. Time to dissolve the church by vigorously suing it out of existence. It worked on the KKK, it can work on these monsters.
Woosty:
How do you know this is bad? (continuing from the other thread)
“To judge means: to evaluate a given concrete by reference to an abstract principle or standard.”
Since you have admitted that you don’t know good from evil how do you know these priests did a bad thing?
I really am curious as to how someone who admits that only God knows good and bad can stand in judgement of these men?
I ask you the same question Blouise, since you think I am sophomoric. I am trying to learn something here.
Sicking. Especially the victim who later killed himself. And, under canon law, these men will remain priests forever. The sacrament of ordination cannot be undone any more than baptism. The only thing the church can do is to prevent these men from saying mass and associating with minors. They will always be priests!!
Google SNAP and read the depositions posted online. They will sicken you.
Father Edward Avery, 68, and Father Charles Engelhardt, 64, were charged with allegedly assaulting a 10-year-old boy at St. Jerome Parish from 1998 to 1999.
————————————————–
Why did it take so long? Was this some great big secret and no-one said ANYTHING for all that time? How much damage was done while these creepos were running around and whose to blame for THAT?
It’s about time … no special treatment … into the main jail and prison population … no bail ’cause these dudes look like runners to me … then let the jury decide …
Pierce the corporate veil and let the schilling and drachma’s fall from every corner…you know if this was a day care center it would be closed down and the FBI et al would be investigating every aspect of this BS…..
The US needs to start treating the RCC for what it is, namely a corrupt & highly immoral criminal organization whose existence has only led to the physical and psychological suffering of countless people on different continents.
Stultification of scientific research in the name of bronze age hoodoo? Just fine.
Child molestation and a cover up stretching back decades (not to mention direct Vatican shielding of the perpetrators)? A ok.
Discrimination against women & LGBT along with allowing the dissemination of AIDS in Africa due to backwards sexual morals (only now reversed in the most begrudging way possible)? Why not.
People are dying right now as a result of these horrible social policies. Perhaps the time for some more direct dismantling has come.