Various news organizations are reporting that Osama Bin Laden is dead. President Obama is expected to announce the news. Bin Laden was reportedly killed in Pakistan by an operation involving Navy Seals but the story is still unfolding. YahooReports indicate that he was shot in the head after he and his bodyboards resisted an attack by the elite unit.
The fact that he reportedly went down fighting will likely add to his image as a martyr — though people who follow him need little encouragement or reason.
Bin Laden was a murderous fanatic who used religion to spread hate. His passing from this Earth would be welcomed news and, even for the most agnostic or atheist among us, there is a lingering wish that there is place for the damned to greet men like Bin Laden after the untold harm that he caused not just to his country but to many countries. Hundreds of thousands of dead can be credited to his dark legacy and beliefs.
While liberals and conservatives differed on the means used to fight Bin Laden, there was never any division on the commitment to fight terrorism or the shared loss from his crimes. On September 11th, the plane that hit the Pentagon struck just after I passed the building on my way to work. I made it about a mile away after blowing my tire on the curb and changing the tire as huge columns of smoke filled the air.
In the end, Bin Laden remained the authentic symbol of radical Islam — an extremist filled with hate living with fellow troglodytes in caves and crevices.
Bin Laden’s death will force some accounting of what has been gained and what has been lost since his infamous wave of terror began. Too much of the damage of 9-11 proved to be self-inflicted, including our use of torture and the launching of two wars that have cost thousands of more American lives and hundreds of billions as the nation sinks into debt and economic distress.
There is no indication that our continued loss of money or personnel in Afghanistan will decrease in any way as a result of the news. While the Afghanistan war seemed personality driven with Bin Laden as the face of evil, it has taken on a type perpetual war due to a lack of political courage to end it.
The world is far better without the likes of Osama Bin Laden. However, he left an ample legacy (and legions) to guarantee that religious hate will continue to shape the future of that region and the world at large.
Bda,
I heard this story at around 12:30a from a CNN reporter. She said that a detainee had given interrogators a courier’s nickname and it took them a couple of years to get the man’s real name and to identify his brother with whom he worked. It then took another couple of years to identify the area in which these two operated. Then last August they identified the courier coming out of this compound in Pakistan which caused them to pay attention to the compound.
She was telling this story to illustrate how long and involved such an action (getting Bin Laden) can be and why intelligence work is so important, so difficult, and time consuming.
I have no idea where she got her information or if the information was factual but there you have it.
What we do know about time of the interrogations, is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was singing like a canary until the higher-ups (Cheney, perhaps?) ordered the torture to commence. According to what I have read, when that started they got nothing more of value, which makes sense to me. I have extracted confessions from a lot of people over the years, and I sure did not do it by mistreating anyone. Aversive stuff tends to harden resolve, not soften them up.
Since KSH was caught in 2003, so that time line does not fit what the President said last evening. I am very skeptical about the information coming from a Gitmo interrogation. What makes more sense (Ockham’s Razor, anyone?) is that it was a tip from an informant in country.
Henman please excuse me, I’m preoccupied with my mother. She’s been with me the last week. Lets look at a part of a sentence and you tell me what you come up with.
they finally learned the courier’s real name four years ago,
How do you suppose they were able to learn that. By offering Cuban cigars and expresso and a free round of golf.
The key word being “suppose”.
That’s like saying you suppose Creationists are right because Fred Flintstone lived with dinosaurs. A supposition and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. In court, science or any other empirical endeavor, a supposition is just that: “what if”, not “actually is”.
Proof, not supposition.
And so what if that’s how they got the guy’s name? Torture is still illegal. It’s also not how they eventually tracked OBL down. Know a courier’s name is but a very small piece of that puzzle and not critical to the outcome. If you think otherwise, you don’t understand how intelligence actually operations work.
Which would come as no surprise given your continual manifestations that if it involves the word “intelligence”, you don’t have a clue.
But you keep grasping at straws.
The smell of trollish desperation goes good with coffee.
Bdaman-
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Raff please excuse me, I’m preoccupied with my mother. She’s been with me the last week. Lets look at a part of a sentence and you tell me what you come up with.
they finally learned the courier’s real name four years ago,
How do you suppose they were able to learn that. By offering Cuban cigars and expresso and a free round of golf.
rafflaw and BIL,
I would be lying if I said that feet are not doing a happy dance over the collective stroke the rabid right and teabaggers are having right now. It gives me joy knowing how this is really chewing their asses …
“is probably the most effective counter they can offer and it’s like poking a tiger with an overcooked noodle.”
Overcooked noodle … Lol
The only thing that will move me from just my feet dancing to full-fledged dancing in the streets is when the troops bogged down in Afghanistan are back here on terra firma …
Ok Raff
Bdaman,
Your proof is very lacking. You are guessing and from what we can see, you are guessing wrong.
American intelligence officials said Sunday night that they finally learned the courier’s real name four years ago, but that it took another two years for them to learn the general region where he operated.
Maybe he waived his Miranda Rights and was given the chance to speak freely.
Bdaman,
The NYT article says nothing about the techniques used, so please explain.
The death of OBL is good news and I send a deep note of appreciation to the Seals for the actual action and the courage involved in taking that action.
Thank you and well done.
Bdaman,
Show me the money! Let us see your information. Let us see the evidence that the courier name was derived through the illegal use of torture. I will be waiting.
Raff as in the famous Vince Treacy
QUOTE ON
Detainees at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, had given the courier’s pseudonym to American interrogators and said that the man was a protégé of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the confessed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.
American intelligence officials said Sunday night that they finally learned the courier’s real name four years ago, but that it took another two years for them to learn the general region where he operated.
QUOTE OFF
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/world/asia/02reconstruct-capture-osama-bin-laden.html
Bdaman, raff and Elaine: I saw that claim about the Gitmo interrogation, but it was unattributed, so my guess is somebody pulled it from their nether parts, like many of the rumors and backbiting going on this morning.
Based on what I know about intelligence gathering and the agencies involved, no such information has been released, and even if true, is not likely to be released. Scuttlebutt, pure and simple.
Bdaman:
“At least we now know enhanced interrogation techniques work.”
*******************
I always thought the argument that torture should be opposed because it was impractical was on wobbly moral ground. All it takes is one major victory from information gleaned from a tortured soul and the argument burns away like so much ignited black powder. The only basis for opposing torture that works morally is the intrinsic evil of the practice coupled with the debasement self-inflicted on the torturer. That should be enough.
[Cue Bob, Esq. and the categorical imperative]
Jeremy Scahill on Killing of Bin Laden: Obama Has “Doubled Down On Bush Administration Policy of Targeted Assassination”
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/2/jeremy_scahill_on_killing_of_bin
I’m not the one who is gravity, factually and “otherwise” challenged, badtroll.
But you crank it up as much as you like if it makes you feel better.
You’ve had a rough week in the troll business.
SL/OS/Smom,
What it boils down to is the GOP/Tea Bagger Royalty (Koch, Armey, etc.) are furious that Obama is going to reap substantial political capital from this event and there is nothing they can do to steal it and little they can do to minimize it. This mullygrubbing you are hearing now on their part is probably the most effective counter they can offer and it’s like poking a tiger with an overcooked noodle.