Last night I was on Countdown discussing Florida’s “stand your ground law” and the recent shooting case of the Trayvon Martin case. We discussed yesterday’s ruling in the the case of Greyston Garcia and the dangerous ambiguity created by these laws. The second-degree murder charges against Garcia were thrown out by a Florida judge under the Stand Your Ground law despite the fact that he did not just stand his ground, but ran after a man who tried to steal his car radio and proceeded to stab the unarmed man to death.
As discussed previously, I have been a long critic of these laws and the earlier Castle Doctrine or “Make My Day” laws. These laws address a problem that does not exist. There are ample protections under the common law for individuals to use the privilege of self-defense, including reasonable mistaken self-defense. As I noted last night, I find it a bit maddening to hear Florida legislators now claim to have never anticipated abuses under these laws. Critics like myself have been vocal about the potential for abuse under these laws for years. Legislators have ignored those warnings because of the popularity of these laws.
The problem with both “Make My Day laws” (applying to the home) and “Stand Your Ground laws” (applying in “other places”) is that they facilitate or enable those who are inclined to use lethal force. The Horn case out of Texas is such an example where, as with Zimmerman, Joe Horn ignored instructions not to confront the suspects. Even cases that bordering on executions have been found protected under such laws.
In the latest case, Garcia, 25, saw Pedro Roteta, 26, trying to steal the radio from his truck outside Garcia’s Miami apartment. He grabbed a large knife and chased the unarmed Roteta down the street and proceeded to stab him to death. This week, the state judge threw out the charges under the state’s “stand your ground” law.
Legislators are now feigning complete shock at the potential for abuse under these laws after refusing to consider the warnings of critics in passing these laws. It is important to keep in mind however that it is not simply the “Stand Your Ground” law. That law is the latest variation of laws that began with the “Castle Doctrine” or “Make My Day” laws and then mutated into the “Make My Day Better” laws and “Stand Your Ground” laws. Each has a catchy title and popular theme — supporting people who fight off felons. Their titles capture the impulse buy nature of these laws where legislators vote without concern for the implications of injecting ambiguous standards into cases involving the use of lethal force. Consider the language of the Florida law:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
The law reads like a stump speech where soundbites become elements of a criminal defense. Judges as in the Garcia case are left applying a standard of “meet[ing] force with force” and “stand[ing] his or her ground.” The result is soundbite justice — lacking depth or substance.
Source: NPR
http://blog.buzzflash.com/node/13399 “ALEC, the NRA, and the Murder of Trayvon Martin”
So – in Florida & Texas, damage to an automobile (as an example)..
– carries the death penalty if a vigilante feels like killing the perp
– carries probation or short prison term if the perp is arrested and tried in court.
Why not just make the death penalty mandatory for theft, assault, etc?
Or how about something a bit more lenient?
Like cutting off the hands of thieves, like they do in parts of the Mid East?
See this is why there should never be Sharia law in the good old USA. Sharia law is far too lenient.
Sorry to burst your bubble but that is not the law in Texas at all. From your comments it appears that you would disarm the cops too since they might shoot a felon whose crime does not carry the death penalty. You would also object to having armed guards around the perimeter of a prison, since escape does NOT carry the death penalty too. Then we can move on to the idea of getting rid of armoured cars and armed guards for transporting valueables since stealing such things does not carry the death penalty. So absent anything other than murder, there is no reason for guns in law enforcement or self defense. Of course, we will not know if it is murder until the deed is done, so self defense becomes problematic after one is dead.
We aren’t at Dodge City yet, but when all are armed
Does no good unless you got lead.
ATK Secures .40 Caliber Ammunition Contract with Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE)
–ATK Wins Five-Year, Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity Contract for .40 Caliber Ammunition from DHS, ICE –Additional .40 Caliber Ammunition Contract with 450 Million Round Potential Demonstrates ATK’s Leadership in Ammunition Manufacturing
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-secures-40-caliber-ammunition-contract-with-department-of-homeland-security-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp
No names mentioned, but some say a car radio is worth a life.
Sounds like medieval England. Then it was a loaf of bread,,but it was the law who took the life.
That law was changed, so how do we change this mindset where we all are cop, prosecutor, judge, and executioner? In max 5 minutes time.
We aren’t at Dodge City yet, but when all are armed………!
Gun Boom Continues Despite Florida Shooting
Firearm stocks surge despite anti-gun protests, calls for stricter gun laws following controversial Florida killing
Despite calls for stricter guns laws in response to the shooting of Trayvon Martin, firearm stocks are soaring as gun companies struggle to keep up with high demand.
Shares of Sturm Ruger & Co. (RGR) were up as high as 14 percent Thursday afternoon after CEO Michael Fifer announced the company was temporarily suspending its acceptance of new orders in an effort to meet a dramatic surge in demand for its products.
“Despite the company’s continuing successful efforts to increase production rates, the incoming order rate exceeds our capacity to rapidly fulfill these orders,” Fifer said in the statement late Wednesday.
Ruger received more than a million order requests in the first quarter of 2012.
http://freebeacon.com/gun-boom-continues-despite-florida-shooting/
Very well said, rcampbell.
The prosecutor can appeal such a dismissal in most instances like this. An appellate court should put the cuffs on such wild interpretations.
The Trayvon Martin Killing, Explained
How did a kid armed with Skittles and iced tea get gunned down by an overeager neighborhood watch captain? UPDATED with response from Sanford, Fla., police department
—By Adam Weinstein | Sun Mar. 18, 2012 10:42 AM PDT
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained
rcampbell:
YES!!
Not so very long ago the important books and films that demonstrated what America was about had titles like On the Waterfront, The Grapes of Wrath, To Kill a Mockingbird. Literature and movies showed the importance Americans placed on standing up for what’s right, what’s honorable and standing with one another. Since the 1980’s the single most prolific genre of American films has been the Action movie. The action (read that as violence) kept pace with new technologies by also dominating video games and some areas of music. The newest incarnation of police dramas on TV is part of the same trend. Instead of the film Wall Street being a cautionary tale, it was apparently viewed by some as a “How To…” manual.
I believe we are seeing the end result of three decades of the unlenting promotion of greed and the philosophy of ME. It was kicked into gear with demonizing our government as being “the other” as if our government wasn’t US, but something outside of or contrary or opposed to the philosophy of ME. Remember “It’s your money”? At the heart of that phrase is the purveying of greed and distrust. Distrust of government leads to distrust of other and ultimately all institutions and eventually to a deepening distrust and suspicion of each other. Terrorists, criminals, gangs, welfare recipients, immigrants each had their day in the sun as being designated the enemy and the target of scorn. With encouragement from the NRA, these feelings of paranoia and suspicion of government and people were easily manipulated into problems that could only be resolved by action heroes with lots of weapons.
And what do all the GOP candidates offer to help America? More of the philosophy of ME.
Erb – so why have courts and judges – just require everyone to be armed. Judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one. I’m sure there could be not unintended consequences.
I’m also reminded of the “no real Scotsman” argument the NRA makes in cases like this:
“All Scotsman love haggis”
“I’m a Scotsman and I hate Haggis”
“Well then you’re not a REAL Scotsman”
No Real gun owner would abuse the law
If the perp still had the radio then the judge is correct to throw out the charges. If he damaged the car in stealing the radio then same thing. In the Zmmerman vigilante case, if Zimmerman was snooping around dead guy the other day then Zimmerman needs to face charges.
The Horn case in Texas hardly rises to the same kind of thing as FL has in its laws. Horn was fully justified in using deadly force, unless one thinks that no force at all should be used against felons who are in the process of committing a crime. I fully support what Horn did since it was the crooks who decided that the loot was more precious than their own lives. THEY made that decision, not Horn. If they had dropped the loot, he could not shoot under Texas law. Horn would have been charged with murder if they had simply run away and he still shot them. From reading the FL law, it appears that it is the judge who decided that the law should be applied in this way. I did not see any reason even under FL law that the guy had a right to kill the crook since he had no property in hand and was simply fleeing.
The only similarity to the Horn case is that the 911 dispatcher advised the actors to not get involved, which is NOT a valid police order. They are NOT required under laws that I know of to follow those orders. Such an order is required for legal liability reasons and sometimes officer safety. The only problem I have with Texas law is that it allows deadly force to be used if the neighborhood kids TP somebodys house at night. THAT needs to be changed..
Elaine M., I missed it last night — thanks for posting the Countdown piece.
Countdown with Keith Olbermann: Jonathan Turley explains the danger of Florida’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ law
The good lawyers have this one covered.
Mespo,
Maybe the want to rename the state after some game show….. Like the price is right…. Truth or Consequence is already taken…..
Surprise, surprise…… Didn’t anticipate the consequences…..
Welcome to Dodge City, Florida circa 1870. Never saw it comin’, eh? Idiots.