The facts behind the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Florida continue to slowly emerge. I have previously stated that I view critical facts as murky for a prosecution — even though I believe that there was sufficient evidence to arrest George Zimmerman at the scene. While we have still not seen some of the forensic evidence, a new report indicates that police may have based their initial decisions in part on the statement of a witness. We have been discussing the maddening gap in witness testimony at the critical moment of the confrontation. Now a new report suggests that there may have been a witness to the struggle and that witness reportedly told police that it was Martin who was on top of Zimmerman before the fatal shot was fired.
FOX 35 in Orlando says that it has spoken to the witness. The witness reportedly said that
“The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911.” Martin was wearing a hoodie that night and Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt or sweater. A friend of Zimmerman has also come forward to say that Zimmerman looked like a mess after the fight and that he recognized Zimmerman as the voice on the 911 call asking people to help him.
An obvious defense case is emerging for a classic self-defense claim. Zimmerman on the 911 tape admits to have shadowed Martin but says it was Martin who was checking him out and moving toward him a threatening fashion. Zimmerman claims that he was attacked when he was returning to his SUV. Police and counsel reported that Zimmerman had cuts on his face and head and appeared to have been in a struggle. Zimmerman was lawfully carrying a handgun was allowed to use the weapon if he was in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death. This includes the possible use of the gun in a struggle of control of the weapon.
While the case has been treated as racially motivated, the Zimmerman family has strongly denied such a motivation — noting that he is a hispanic with many African-American friends. Frankly, Zimmerman does closely resemble an alternative profile — that of a defendant in “Castle Doctrine” or “Stand Your Ground” cases. In these controversies, we often see people who are obsessed with crime and in some cases inclined to use lethal force. That does not mean that race did not play a role here. However, it is possible that Zimmerman was motivated by his well-documented obsession with crime as opposed to race. While I understand the sensitivity to the race issue and have my own suspicions concerning the role of race, I believe it is premature to label this a racially motivated crime without more evidence of such a motive. None of this means that Zimmerman should not be charged, but rather than there remain murky elements to the case. We simply need to know more about such motivations. In terms of the state law, we also need more information (particularly forensic evidence) to better gauge the chances of a conviction in the case. I still find the fact that Zimmerman was armed and outweighed Martin to be the most significant. However, this case is still in its earliest stage in terms of development of the evidence and witnesses. Among other things, if a charge is brought, such evidence could push prosecutors toward a manslaughter claim with a lower likely sentence than second or first degree murder. Even with manslaughter, the prosecutors would have to establish the element beyond a reasonable doubt, including the claim of self-defense. Of course, the mere fact that Martin may have gotten the better of Zimmerman in dominating fight at one point does not mean that Zimmerman was not the original aggressor. It will depend on the full range of witness testimony and, again, the missing forensic evidence.
I was asked last week to sign an online petition demanding the prosecution of Zimmerman. As I have noted, I believe that there is sufficient evidence for an indictment. However, I have never support such public campaigns for indictments. I do not believe in prosecution by plebiscite. Whether there are 100 or 100,000 people demanding an indictment, a prosecutor should not be influenced by such popular outcries. We saw how distortive and corrupting such campaigns can be on prosecutors like Michael Nifong. Prosecutors must based their decisions on the weight of the evidence not the weight of public opinion. Regardless of my views about a possible indictment, I would not want a prosecutor influenced by any petition supporting those views. There is a line between the visceral and the legal and such petitions fall on the wrong side of that line.
Source: Daily Mail
Report: Investigator Had Wanted Manslaughter Charge For Zimmerman
The latest development comes as leaks from both sides attempt to reshape the public narrative of Trayvon Martin’s death.
By Josh Voorhees and Abby Ohlheiser
Posted Tuesday, March 27, 2012
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/03/27/trayvon_martin_parents_in_d_c_george_zimmerman_says_he_was_attacked_.html
Excerpt:
UPDATE: ABC News with the latest scoop: The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of Trayvon Martin originally recommended that police charge George Zimmerman with manslaughter the night of the shooting.
The network, citing “multiple sources,” reports that Investigator Chris Serino was instructed, however, not to press charges against Zimmerman because the Florida state attorney’s office had determined that there wasn’t enough evidence to lead to a conviction.
ABC News also reports that Zimmerman was brought to the police station for questioning “for a few hours” on the night of the shooting, despite his request for medical attention first, and that Serino filed an affidavit on the night that Martin was killed that stated he was unconvinced by Zimmerman’s version of events.
Sanford Police throw pot at Trayvon Martin
By Jonathan Capehart
3/26/12
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/sanford-police-throw-pot-at-trayvon-martin/2011/03/04/gIQA4eEgcS_blog.html
Excerpt:
According to the Sentinel, “Police have been reluctant to [provide] details about all their evidence, but this is what they’ve disclosed to the Sentinel” before rattling off a raft of details. And it was how this list began that raised a red flag.
Zimmerman was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.
Trayvon was visiting his father’s fiancee, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie. Miami schools have a zero-tolerance policy for drug possession.
Zimmerman called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.
There is no way the Sanford Police Department (SPD) knew on the night of Feb. 26 that Trayvon had been suspended from school. That’s relevant since the account the SPD is providing is from that night. Meanwhile, keep in mind that Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, called the sheriff’s department the next day to file a missing-persons report. That’s when the police went to the house with photos of Trayvon’s dead body. He had been taken to the morgue and tagged as a John Doe.
Was it then that police quizzed Martin about his son? Is that how they got the marijuana-suspension detail? That bit of information fits neatly with what Zimmerman said during his infamous 911 call that a “suspicious” person who was “up to no good” and “perhaps on drugs.” Also, why is such a detailed accounting of Zimmerman’s side of the story being leaked by someone within the Sanford Police Department, instead of being officially released?
Trayvon’s parents have been clear from the beginning: They don’t trust the Sanford Police Department. This leak does nothing to assuage their fears that the SPD can’t be trusted. At the news conference this afternoon, Martin said, “Even in death they are still disrespecting my son.” Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon’s mother, said that Zimmerman killed her son and “now they are trying to kill his reputation.”
If the SPD had spent as much time conducting a proper investigation as it appears to have spent on crafting a defense of its woefully lacking actions, Trayvon Martin’s parents — and the nation — wouldn’t be in an uproar right now.
Vengance (sic), sweety pie, cupcake, etc.
You know you resemble my ass in that you stink of s–t. (sorry ladies)
And you know that I’m glad you’re not my ass, because it would be swelled up, red, constipated and good for nuthin’..
How do you like that sassing. You came here just to irritate. Troll.
Can’t understand why people give you a decent answer. Waste of breath.
VenganceNow:
“The point sweet cakes is TrayVon was a thug want to be. There ain’t no chance of that happening now. Now look at his mommie taking advantage of his name. Can you believe that she wants to make money off of his memory? Creepy people doing creepy things.”
*****************
Prove it.
What mommy does doesn’t matter. Seems you like to lump people together for judgment. The old guilt by association mentality. There was a German guy who thought like that, too. He was all about vengance [sic] just like you. Does that make you like him?.
See anybody –absolutely anybody –can play guilt by association; that’s why it’s not wortth much.
Lastly, calling someone “sweety cakes” that you don’t know is demeaning and haughty. Believe me, no one reading your comments thinks you lord over anyone at all.
The point sweet cakes is TrayVon was a thug want to be. There ain’t no chance of that happening now. Now look at his mommie taking advantage of his name. Can you believe that she wants to make money off of his memory? Creepy people doing creepy things.
Seems to me that if Martin confronted Zimmerman, Martin was standing his ground.
So much confusing info. Hope a good investigation lets us all know what really happened. Lawyers, bloggers, talking heads, none of us really knows what we’re talking about in terms of what really happened. Evidence, please, from those who know, and it ain’t us.
PJ,
Let me repeat this, in case you missed it:
The National Sheriffs’ Association Statement:
“The Neighborhood Watch Program fosters collaboration and cooperation with the community and local law enforcement by encouraging citizens to be aware of what is going on in their communities and contact law enforcement if they suspect something – NOT take the law in their own hands,” continued Executive Director Kennard.
“The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for and it resulted in a young man losing his life. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family of Trayvon Martin during this terrible time.”
http://www.sheriffs.org/content/nsa-statement-nw-tragedy-fl (entire statement)
I’ll refer you to mespo’s comment — he summed it up nicely.
mespo727272 1, March 27, 2012 at 3:12 pm
PJ:
“, he had all the justification and authority he needed to identify and follow someone he deemed to be suspicious. If you want to claim otherwise, support you position with more than whining.”
***************
Police Dispatcher: “Are you following him?”
Zimmerman: “Yep.”
Police Dispatcher:”Okay, we don’t need you to do that.”
So the rule, PJ, is to read everything; talk less; think more.
(end of mespo’s comment)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/26/why-conservatives-are-smearing-trayvon-martin-s-reputation.html
“I do not blame him for striking out after Zimmerman pushed him (according to phone call with Trayvons girlfriend”
supporting hyperlink?
As for “the justification and authority to follow”, you’ll have to explain that one.
nurse, If you don’t understand what it is that permits us all to move freely, I can’t teach you that on a blog. Maybe you would do better to identify what law would prohibit Zimmerman from following Martin. Free people aren’t restricted from movement.
@PJ
“Zimmerman had all the authority he needed to “police” his neighborhood. He was doing what good neighbors do when they have been the subject of numerous burglaries. He watched for and reported suspicious activity.”
Authority: the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
He had no authority.
He watched for what he considered to be suspicious activity.
He called the police.
He was told not to follow the ‘suspect’.
Any possible hint of “authority” stopped dead when he was told not to follow.
He had no authority.
“According to the police report, Martin engaged Zimmerman, not the other way around. However, even if Zimmerman engaged Martin to ask why he was in the neighborhood, he would have done nothing wrong.”
He followed.
He got out of his vehicle,
He engaged the ‘suspect’
All this despite the fact the the police had told him *not to follow*
“According to the police report, Martin engaged Zimmerman”
Are you/police proposing that Martin
– stalked Zimmerman
– dragged him out of his vehicle
– made an unprovoked assault on Zimmerman
Where was Martin in relation to Zimmerman when he was shot? A proper technical examination will show that.
Was it Martin that shouted “No!” Would that not imply that the mere threat of the gun would have been sufficient to stop any fight?
Zimmerman is a wingnut. He’s a fantasist.
He was playing cops and robbers – but with a real gun.
Martin’s death was entirely due to Zimmerman’s fantasy role play. He had been told not to follow. He did more than follow. He got out and engaged.
The actions of the police appear to have been grossly incompetent at the very best interpretation.
PJ 1, March 27, 2012 at 2:54 pm
nurse,
Just because you don’t want to take an active role in looking out for your neighborhood, that doesn’t deprive those of us willing to do so from it.
————
PJ,
Could you define “active role?” What are the limits of those in Neighborhood Watch programs, given your understanding? How about the limits of “Citizens on Patrol” and/or retired, law enforcement officers who may be participating in these programs?
PJ: Trayvon had just as much right to be in that neighborhood as Zimmerman. Exactly the same rights.
Why didn’t Zimmerman identifiy himself as ‘neighborhood watch’ if that was indeed what he was doing.
Because Trayvon was being stalked by a stranger, he was a teen, and I do not blame him for striking out after Zimmerman pushed him (according to phone call with Trayvons girlfriend)
There was a physical reason that phone call was abruptly cut off. Trayvon did not get to say good by to his friend, something happened.
And you speculate that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman? The phone call does not support this. Only Zimmerman SAYING he was “attacked”, that is your only proof.
PJ,
According to numerous reports, Zimmerman was “a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain.” The operative word is “watch.”
From the following “sheriffs.org” link:
http://www.12newsnow.com/story/17264159/trayvon-martin-case-timeline-of-events
“The Neighborhood Watch Program fosters collaboration and cooperation with the community and local law enforcement by encouraging citizens to be aware of what is going on in their communities and contact law enforcement if they suspect something – NOT take the law in their own hands,” continued Executive Director Kennard. “The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for and it resulted in a young man losing his life. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family of Trayvon Martin during this terrible time.”
http://www.sheriffs.org/content/nsa-statement-nw-tragedy-fl
NSA Statement on the NW Tragedy in FL
Alexandria, VA – For nearly four decades, the Neighborhood Watch Program (housed within the National Sheriffs’ Association (NSA)) has worked to unite law enforcement agencies, private organizations, and individual citizens in a nation-wide effort to reduce crime and improve local communities.
The purpose of the Neighborhood Watch Program is to enable citizens to act as the “eyes and ears” within their community and alert law enforcement immediately when they notice suspicious activity. However, the Neighborhood Watch Program does not in any way, shape, or form advocate citizens to take the law in their own hands. The success of the program has established Neighborhood Watch as the nation’s premier crime prevention and community mobilization program. Visible signs of the program are seen throughout America on street signs, window decals, community block parties and service projects.
“The alleged action of a “self-appointed neighborhood watchman” last month in Sanford, FL significantly contradicts the principles of the Neighborhood Watch Program,” stated NSA Executive Director Aaron D. Kennard, Sheriff (ret.). “NSA has no information indicating the community where the incident occurred has ever even registered with the NSA Neighborhood Watch program.”
“The Neighborhood Watch Program fosters collaboration and cooperation with the community and local law enforcement by encouraging citizens to be aware of what is going on in their communities and contact law enforcement if they suspect something – NOT take the law in their own hands,” continued Executive Director Kennard. “The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for and it resulted in a young man losing his life. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family of Trayvon Martin during this terrible time.” end of statement
PJ:
“, he had all the justification and authority he needed to identify and follow someone he deemed to be suspicious. If you want to claim otherwise, support you position with more than whining.”
***************
Police Dispatcher: “Are you following him?”
Zimmerman: “Yep.”
Police Dispatcher:”Okay, we don’t need you to do that.”
So the rule, PJ, is to read everything; talk less; think more.
This is one nurse who never “whines”, PJ. I don’t know many who do. 😉
“he had all the justification and authority he needed to identify and follow someone he deemed to be suspicious.” -PJ
PJ, I agree that he had “the justification and authority… to identify someone he deemed to be suspicious.”
As for “the justification and authority to follow”, you’ll have to explain that one.
Jon Stewart Rips Trayvon Martin Media Coverage, George Zimmerman & Florida Law (VIDEO)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/27/jon-stewart-trayvon-martin-media-coverage-florida-law_n_1382084.html
“His self-appointed job”
He was a voluntary member of the neighborhood watch. Even if he was, as you say, “self-appointed”, as a member of that community, he had all the justification and authority he needed to identify and follow someone he deemed to be suspicious. If you want to claim otherwise, support you position with more than whining.
nurse,
Just because you don’t want to take an active role in looking out for your neighborhood, that doesn’t deprive those of us willing to do so from it.
Zimmerman would have been fully within his rights to walk up to Martin and ask what he was doing there. Martin would have been within his rights to refuse to answer.
According to the police report, Martin attacked Zimmerman. ——do you think Zimmerman bloodied his own nose and the back of his head, and put grass stains on the back of his own shirt in order to make it look convincing?
This comes down to one thing: Was the use of deadly force justified when Zimmerman was attacked? Everything else is just an appeal to everyone’s emotions.