The facts behind the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Florida continue to slowly emerge. I have previously stated that I view critical facts as murky for a prosecution — even though I believe that there was sufficient evidence to arrest George Zimmerman at the scene. While we have still not seen some of the forensic evidence, a new report indicates that police may have based their initial decisions in part on the statement of a witness. We have been discussing the maddening gap in witness testimony at the critical moment of the confrontation. Now a new report suggests that there may have been a witness to the struggle and that witness reportedly told police that it was Martin who was on top of Zimmerman before the fatal shot was fired.
FOX 35 in Orlando says that it has spoken to the witness. The witness reportedly said that
“The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911.” Martin was wearing a hoodie that night and Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt or sweater. A friend of Zimmerman has also come forward to say that Zimmerman looked like a mess after the fight and that he recognized Zimmerman as the voice on the 911 call asking people to help him.
An obvious defense case is emerging for a classic self-defense claim. Zimmerman on the 911 tape admits to have shadowed Martin but says it was Martin who was checking him out and moving toward him a threatening fashion. Zimmerman claims that he was attacked when he was returning to his SUV. Police and counsel reported that Zimmerman had cuts on his face and head and appeared to have been in a struggle. Zimmerman was lawfully carrying a handgun was allowed to use the weapon if he was in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death. This includes the possible use of the gun in a struggle of control of the weapon.
While the case has been treated as racially motivated, the Zimmerman family has strongly denied such a motivation — noting that he is a hispanic with many African-American friends. Frankly, Zimmerman does closely resemble an alternative profile — that of a defendant in “Castle Doctrine” or “Stand Your Ground” cases. In these controversies, we often see people who are obsessed with crime and in some cases inclined to use lethal force. That does not mean that race did not play a role here. However, it is possible that Zimmerman was motivated by his well-documented obsession with crime as opposed to race. While I understand the sensitivity to the race issue and have my own suspicions concerning the role of race, I believe it is premature to label this a racially motivated crime without more evidence of such a motive. None of this means that Zimmerman should not be charged, but rather than there remain murky elements to the case. We simply need to know more about such motivations. In terms of the state law, we also need more information (particularly forensic evidence) to better gauge the chances of a conviction in the case. I still find the fact that Zimmerman was armed and outweighed Martin to be the most significant. However, this case is still in its earliest stage in terms of development of the evidence and witnesses. Among other things, if a charge is brought, such evidence could push prosecutors toward a manslaughter claim with a lower likely sentence than second or first degree murder. Even with manslaughter, the prosecutors would have to establish the element beyond a reasonable doubt, including the claim of self-defense. Of course, the mere fact that Martin may have gotten the better of Zimmerman in dominating fight at one point does not mean that Zimmerman was not the original aggressor. It will depend on the full range of witness testimony and, again, the missing forensic evidence.
I was asked last week to sign an online petition demanding the prosecution of Zimmerman. As I have noted, I believe that there is sufficient evidence for an indictment. However, I have never support such public campaigns for indictments. I do not believe in prosecution by plebiscite. Whether there are 100 or 100,000 people demanding an indictment, a prosecutor should not be influenced by such popular outcries. We saw how distortive and corrupting such campaigns can be on prosecutors like Michael Nifong. Prosecutors must based their decisions on the weight of the evidence not the weight of public opinion. Regardless of my views about a possible indictment, I would not want a prosecutor influenced by any petition supporting those views. There is a line between the visceral and the legal and such petitions fall on the wrong side of that line.
Source: Daily Mail
Mespo,
Those facts just keep getting in the way! 🙂
Jim:
“You dodged my point. IF Martin did pursue Zimmerman then this is a game changer.”
********************
No dodge, Jim, an dteh answer is maybe so, maybe, no. If Martin pursued Zimmerman in anticipation of Zimmerman going to his truck to get a weapon, he may not be criminally liable. If, like Zimmerman, he had no reason fear for his safety and wanted to initiate a fight then Zimmerman did have the right to defend himself. The problem with the theory is that we’ll never know what Martin thought because Zimmerman destroyed any possibility of that evidence coming out. Thus we are left with assessing Zimmerman’s credibillity to determine what happened.
To do that, we have to look at what we do know. What we do know is that a witness exists who has stated, under oath, facts totally inconsistent with Zimmerman’s version of events, all without knowing what Zimmerman would say about what happened. How would you rule on her credibility, Jim? Come on, Jim. It’s first year law school stuff.
PJ:
Just so you don’t go around as ignorant as you appear in your comment,here’s the job description and the “emergency medical dispatcher” Zimmerman was talking to from the Seminole County website:
The Seminole County Public Safety Emergency Communication Center provides centralized dispatch services for fire and EMS resources to all fire and Emergency Medical Services (EMS) agencies operating as a part of the Seminole County First Response System. These municipalities include Altamonte Springs, Casselberry, Lake Mary, Longwood, Oviedo, Sanford, Winter Springs, and the unincorporated areas of Seminole County.
The Emergency Communications Center is located in the combined Public Safety-Sheriffs Office complex located at 150 Bush Blvd. in Sanford, Florida.
The Center operates a computer aided dispatch system that identifies and recommends for dispatch the nearest appropriate unit to an emergency. In addition, a traffic monitoring system displays real time video of major highways on monitors located in the Emergency Communications Center allowing Operators to actually see the incident and dispatch appropriate emergency equipment to the scene.
All Operators working in the Emergency Communications Center are certified Emergency Medical Dispatchers (EMD) and are trained to provide life saving instructions to callers during emergency medical situations.
The Division provides after-hours dispatch services for the Animal Services Division and other county operational departments and divisions.
In case of an emergency, citizens and visitors should dial 911 to access the nearest PSAP to their location where a 911 Call Taker will make the following statement:
“911, Do you need Police, Fire or Medical?”
You will be prompted for the following information:
Describe the emergency situation.
Locations of the emergency (Street address and nearest cross street).
The telephone number you are calling from.
Additional questions may be asked depending on the type of emergency. In the event of a medical emergency, an Emergency Medical Dispatcher (EMD) will ask specific questions and provide medical pre-arrival instructions while emergency units are enroute to the emergency scene.
Good sidestep, though. Now maybe you can answer my question: how does the girlfriend refute Zimmerman’s story through her apparent bias if she didn’t know about it in the first place?
mespo727272
You dodged my point. IF Martin did pursue Zimmerman then this is a game changer. We will know when all of the evidence comes out. Let the attorneys do their job and the grand jury do theirs, then we will know.
Mespo,
The girlfriend’s account is full of holes. How did she, on the other side of the phone, see Zimmerman push Martin? Does she have a personal interest in defending Martin?
nurse,
Why quote Mespo when Mespo got it wrong. Zimmerman wasn’t on the phone with a “police dispatcher”. The city Manager released a statement identifying the person Zimmerman was on the phone with as a “telecommunications call taker”. Further, the “call taker” did not forbid/order Zimmerman not to follow. The “call taker” only stated that they did not need Zimmerman to follow.
Zimmerman was acting lawfully. So was Martin. It wasn’t until one assaulted the other that the activity became unlawful.
Zimmerman had a bloody nose, lacerations on the back of his head and grass stains on the back of his shirt. -Consistent with his story.
I’m still waiting for the autopsy report on Martin. If the bullet wound to his chest is his only injury, it would be consistent with Zimmerman’s story.
Typo: Jim = John
mespo, I wonder if somebody will tell this Jim person it is a really bad idea to lie to the FBI? Martha Stewart found that out the hard way.
I am eagerly awaiting for the professionals to arrive. I really dislike trial by media and death by a thousand leaks.
Jim:
Come on, Jim. A guy who refuses to give his name and talks only behind a door to the press or the girlfriend who is available to police. By the way, how do you explan the discrepancy. Did the girlfriend just “know” what defense Zimmerman would concoct and the set out to dispute it because she’s biased?
mespo727272
An affidavit is good but the eyewitness named John is better.
Jim:
“The real question is did Zimmerman stop following Martin and begin returning to his car?”
******************
The problem with Zimmerman’s position is that it is directly refuted by the affidavit of Trayvon’s girlfriend who was not aware of Zimmerman’s claim when she signed the affidavit. So who you believe the armed cop wannabe with a reason to fabricate or the girlfriend who told her story without knowing it contradicted Zimmerman at the time she gave it?
mr.ed
The real question is did Zimmerman stop following Martin and begin returning to his car? If he did and Martin then pursued him, then the stand your ground law comes into play. One eyewitness has corroborated Zimmerman that Zimmerman was being assaulted by Martin so the real question is what I have stated.
The ACLU piece is longer than I thought. Sorry.
House Holds Forum on Racial Profiling and Hate Crimes in Wake of Trayvon Martin’s Killing
Posted by Dennis Parker, ACLU Racial Justice Program at 1:25pm
03/27/2012
http://www.aclu.org/blog/racial-justice/house-holds-forum-racial-profiling-and-hate-crimes-wake-trayvon-martins-killing
Excerpt:
The tragic shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin has left the country shocked and ashamed. In response to this tragedy, the U.S. House of Representatives today is hosting a Democratic forum titled “Protecting a “Suspect” Community: Forum on Racial Profiling, Federal Hate Crimes Enforcement and “Stand Your Ground Laws”. The ACLU, along with other national political, social and media leaders have joined the Martin family in seeking justice for the death of this young man, who by all accounts had a bright future ahead of him.
Today’s hearing is an opportunity to discuss how we as a nation want to ensure that young men like Trayvon are not the victims of vigilante justice and racial profiling.
The FBI, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and the Department of Justice (DOJ) have announced that they will undertake an investigation; these agencies should investigate not only the circumstances around Trayvon’s killing, but also the patterns and practices of the Sanford Police Department more generally. And while we are encouraged by the commitment of state and federal agencies to investigate the circumstances surrounding Trayvon’s death, we don’t want to lose sight of the need to not only uncover what happened that tragic night but also to review the initial local investigation. There are still unanswered and very troubling questions about the Sanford Police Department’s response to the incident.
Unfortunately, Trayvon Martin’s case is just one example of the Sanford Police Department’s disturbing history of responses to incidents that involve African-Americans. In 2006, two private security guards, the son of a Sanford police officer and a volunteer for the department, shot and killed an African-American teenager with a single gunshot to his back. Although the guards admitted to never identifying themselves, they were released without charges.
More recently in 2010, the son of a Sanford Police Department lieutenant, Justin Collison, assaulted a homeless African-American man outside a bar. The officers responding to the scene released Collison without charges. After video tape of the incident surfaced, Collison eventually surrendered to police. The police chief at the time was ultimately forced into retirement, but the sergeant in charge of the Collison case was also the first supervisor on the scene where Trayvon Martin was shot to death.
In addition to an investigation into the history of problematic police conduct in Sanford, Fla., the ACLU also supports a thorough investigation into whether the Trayvon Martin shooting was a federal hate crime. Since news reports indicate that the shooter, George Zimmerman, may have uttered a racial epitaph while pursuing Trayvon Martin, it is necessary to consider the possibility that a hate crime was committed. Federal investigations and prosecutions of hate crimes serve as a significant deterrent; they also reaffirm the national consensus that it is abhorrent and culturally unacceptable for people to be targeted because of their race, religion, gender, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability or other characteristics.
Congress can play a significant role in the wake of this tragedy by fully funding the Civil Rights Division of DOJ, so that it has the resources to investigate civil rights violations by law enforcement across the nation, passing the End Racial Profiling Act and urging the administration to strengthen the Department of Justice Guidance Regarding the Use of Race by Federal Law Enforcement.
As important as a complete investigation of this incident is, we must recognize that this incident raises concerns that go beyond the actions of one man in Florida.Failing to take a clear, incisive look at the continuing association of young men of color with crime assures that these tragic incidents will continue leaving us to ask how many young people must die before we address the serious underlying problem of race in the United States.
ACLU testimony:
https://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/aclu-testimony-trayvon-martin-forum-us-house-representatives
Woosty,
Thanks for the Lehrer.
Remember well Hold your hand and Be Prepared….BoyScout (marching song) from my youth in the 50’s, Can that be right date wise?.
Only poleeeees are allowed to kill folks on suspicion, and are they charged?
You know the answer. Are they tried. Same o, same o.
Jim Crow forever.
Want some genuine blues? Try Eric Bibb with Booker’s Guitar on Telarc.
He’s black but lives in Finland. It was recorded in USA.
PJ,
George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin case: Experts say neighborhood watch groups shouldn’t be armed
MICHAEL RUBINKAM, Associated Press
Posted: 03/22/2012
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-case-experts-say-neighborhood-watch-groups-shouldnt-be-armed
Excerpt:
ALLENTOWN, Pa. — Neighborhood watch groups were designed to be the eyes and ears of police — passively observing what they see and reporting back to law enforcement — not to enforce the law themselves.
Most neighborhood watches follow the rules, and confrontations are rare. But after the killing of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in a Florida gated community, criminal justice experts say police departments and watch groups need to make sure volunteers do not take matters into their own hands.
“First thing: You do not engage. Once you see anything, a suspicious activity, you call the number that the police department has given you,” said Chris Tutko, director of the Neighborhood Watch program at the National Sheriffs’ Association, which launched the neighborhood watch concept 40 years ago as a response to rising crime.
Tutko said he was flabbergasted to learn about a watch captain’s shooting of the 17-year-old Martin last month in Sanford, Fla. Civil rights groups have demanded the arrest of the captain, George Zimmerman, who has said he shot Martin in self-defense. The Justice Department has opened a civil rights investigation.
Tutko said it’s highly unusual, and highly discouraged, for a neighborhood watch to be armed.
“You do not carry a weapon during neighborhood watch,” he said flatly. “If you carry a weapon, you’re going to pull it.”
Tens of thousands of watches have been formed across the United States over the decades. Some patrol gritty urban neighborhoods where volunteers walk a beat; others monitor sparsely populated areas with houses that are miles apart.
Regardless of location, the message from law enforcement is always the same: Do not intervene. Do not try to be a hero. Leave the crime-fighting to the police.
“We don’t want to see somebody taking the law into their own hands,” said Philadelphia police Sgt. Dennis Rosenbaum.
Thanks for the links, Elaine M.
I like that police work Elaine…… It’s more common that you know…… Build a case with the facts you have rather than building a case based upon the facts…..