The evidence continues to roll in on the Zimmerman case. While the new evidence is not entirely bad for the prosecution, it does contain some evidence that will likely bolster the defense of George Zimmerman in the second degree murder trial over the killing of Trayvon Martin. Regardless of the ultimate impact, the evidence again shows (in my opinion) that prosecutor Angela Corey over-charged the case in Florida.
Some of the new evidence shows that Martin had traces of THC (the active ingredient of marijuana) in his blood stream and urine. Martin was suspended from school due to a marijuana offense (though it involved an empty marijuana baggie). Another benefit to the defense is that Martin father is shown denying that the voice calling out for help was his son — though he later changed that view when he says he was given a better recording. Other witnesses have indicated that it Zimmerman who was calling for help.
Generally, the existence of drugs in the system of a victim or defendant is admissible. The suspension would appear inadmissible under standard evidentiary rules.
There is also evidence that some neighbors described Zimmerman as a bully and a racist. That would help bolster the reported hate crimes prosecution being considered by the Obama Administration, though I still have reservations based on the evidence as it currently stands. Also the police viewed the shooting as “avoidable” — if Zimmerman had left the matter to the police.
I am not sure how much of the neighbor’s view of Zimmerman as a bully or racist could come into evidence. Such accounts, however, can have the benefit of further discouraging Zimmerman from taking the stand as a witness — always a benefit to the prosecution because (while they are told that a defendant has a right not to testify (jurors expect to hear from defendants).
On the whole, however, I would view the evidence as more positive to the defense. First, I have previously said that I was most interested in the distance of the shot and forensics. It now appears that Martin was shot from an intermediate range (no more than 18 inches and as little as an inch away). That would support the claim of Zimmerman that they were in a wrestling fight when the gun was fired. The greater the distance the stronger the case for the prosecution. The defense will likely present expert testimony to try to reduce the range further on the stand. Also, the report does have people at the scene saying that Zimmerman’s nose appeared broken — supporting the later medical report of the family doctor (though such injuries could occur from Martin defending himself).
Moreover, at least two witnesses appear to support Zimmerman in describing the man in the hoodie at straddling the other man and throwing punches. The report state that the man in the “‘hoodie’ [was] on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.’ He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.” One report also says that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.
While the reports blame Zimmerman for getting out of his vehicle (he says that he was trying to get a house number for the police), that is not itself a crime. Of course, none of this means that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Given the presumption of innocence and the need to prove the elements beyond a reasonable doubt, this evidence presents an added problem for the prosecution in my view. I have expressed skepticism over the way the case has developed and how it has been charged from the outset. As a criminal defense attorney, I would view this as a strong defense case even on the manslaughter charge, particularly given the poor police work at the scene.
What do you think?
Here is the police report.
Source: ABC and NY Daily News
Tony C – Yes, exactly…that whole “state of mind” baloney is what is so unacceptable about the “Martin had a right to do unleash violence on Zimmerman” just because of how Martin may have “felt”. Thank heavens just an illogical basis is not the rule of law in this country or it would be a virtual free for all as you mention
Elaine – Whoops, your last re-posted article is inaccurate. No such witness statement exists in the discovery trove of witness statements or the police report. Even the commentators on that article called out the author and the sight on its veracity and their news reporting integrity
To add to that every witness statement that is in the discovery trove that reported seeing the fight/gunshot completely contradict the part about “no fighting was going on when the gun went off”. There is complete consensus on the gunshot occurring while Martin was on top of Zimmerman while straddling him pinned and landing blows on his head
@top shot: perceived danger. whether real or not, isn’t it what a person perceives in his own mind, actual/real or not, that is relevant to the law?
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding of such cases (which does involve hearing about assault, battery, and murder cases in court) is that what is in your mind, or what you claim was in your mind, is not the final say. It is the court (judge and/or jury) that determines whether you had plausible reason to perceive danger or a threat or fear for your life.
Logically, that would make common sense. Imagine the alternative: If a person’s own claims about their motives were the only thing that had relevance, a man could knock on your door and when you opened it, shoot you dead. Then claim, “When he opened the door he looked angry to me, that was my perception, so angry I really thought he was going to attack me, and I was at a loss as to what to do so I drew my gun and shot him before he could kill me. Sorry.”
The court has to decide whether that sounds plausible to them, or is just cold blooded murder for reasons unknown.
Zimmerman claims he had stopped following Trayvon and was looking for an address. The fact is that he continued on the same path that Trayvon had taken, and was then confronted by Trayvon well off the roadway, which is where the fight occurred.
The court will have to decide if “I stopped following but I was walking on the same path as if I were following, but for a different reason” is a plausible rationale for Zimmerman and Martin to meet where the fight occurred.
In short, I believe what one claims to have perceived will be weighted for plausibility, like all testimony, and will be taken with a large grain of salt if it is self-serving.
For me, if I were on the jury, I think Zimmerman is lying about “looking for an address,” I think he continued to follow Trayvon on the last path he saw Trayvon take, and that decision resulted in a confrontation and a fight.
Manny, so, of all the 911 calls George put into the police, one MAY have prevented a burglary of a house. There is no proof of this at all, it is conjecture.
In my honest opinion, if George had not been in police training and his father was not a magistrate, the police would have started ignoring his calls.
Or they would have simply told him to stop making nuisance calls to 911. They charge $$ for police time now for prank calls to 911.
Elaine, yea, that certainly describes the unnecessary shooting of Trayvon Martin by a chicken shit control freak.
The fight was probably over, both were probably winded, and then George took advantage of this lull to kill Martin in cold blood. It is sickening.
bigfatmike. Good question. Did George actually help anyone with his nuisance calls or were they just a waste of time and money for everyone?
Sling, very good analysis. Language is a tricky subject because most of the time context is everything.
“In any job, someone is bound to not like you if you do it long enough, but Zimmerman and his wife really were doing a nice selfless thing in assisting their community against a criminal element.” -Manny O.
Are you, by any chance, a part of one of these “watch” programs, Manny O.?
bigfatmike – Sure
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/04/03/zimmermans-neighbor-perfect-storm-caused-shooting
Manny, sorry but I do not think many people really appreciated George stalking everyone through the neighborhood. The nuisance calls to 911 wasted tax dollars for each call. Dollars that should be spent on real crimes, not the behavior George wanted to control in his neighborhood that was NOT illegal or bothering anyone else BUT George.
It would be pain in the ass to me if someone took it upon themselves to screen every single person coming on my road. An intrusion of my privacy, in fact. I would not want my visitors to have to answer to George or anyone else for that matter.
Manny O: “Are you for real? So when a person comes up to you and asks “You got a problem homie?” you honestly think “that is basically asking to explain his actions”
I am for real.
You appear to be incapable of seeing thing in context.
A. If I was walking down the street and ‘a person comes up to me and asks “You got a problem homie?”…
My reaction would most definitely be “Whoa! Yeas, as it happens, I do actually have a problem, and that problem is this deranged person in my face”
B. Now – as an *utterly and completely* different circumstance:
If I was following somebody in the dark, and that person came up to me and said “You got a problem homie?” I would understand *exactly* what was going on.
That person would very understandably be wanting to know why I was following them.
Your “Are you for real” would be relevant to situation (A).
What was happening in the Zimmerman/Martin case was situation (B).
George Zimmerman Might Be A Bully After All, Witnesses Say
Abby Rogers and Erin Fuchs | May 18, 2012
http://www.businessinsider.com/witnesses-told-police-george-zimmerman-chased-trayvon-martin-down-before-shooting-him-2012-5
Excerpt:
George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin before shooting the “skinny” 17-year-old and any scuffle was over by the time a shot was fired, according to some witnesses.
Two women who heard someone screaming for help before Martin died told Florida investigators Zimmerman followed the teen before killing him.
“And I can tell you there was no fighting going on at the time the gun went off,” one of the women, identified only as W16, told police. “And the fight that happened started way down the sidewalk. Now the kid got shot way down here, you know, 5 doors down.”…
“So I’m assuming maybe the kid was already shot once and was crying and trying to get home,” one of the women told investigators. “But I know they were not physically fighting at the time that gun went off when we heard the shot and the kid hit the ground.”
Shano – I need a link to this obvious data that is irrefutable you speak of, thats what I meant by a cite. Something on par with his verbal agreement to not follow Martin on the 911 call
To be fair, George had been doing the watch for sometime and had been key in stopping a number of burglaries/robberies. He and his wife counseled the victims of crimes in their community, for free.
I;m not saying there wasn’t perhaps someone who didn’t like a watchman keeping tabs on things or felt it unnecessary/invasive, but for every one of those folks, I bet there were many more that had their property preserved and emotional state helped by Zimmerman and his wife who literally were willing to help 24hrs aday. They gave out their personal cell phones and said, “seriously call any time even if you just want to talk”
In any job, someone is bound to not like you if you do it long enough, but Zimmerman and his wife really were doing a nice selfless thing in assisting their community against a criminal element.
@Manny O “George had been doing the watch for sometime and had been key in stopping a number of burglaries/robberies.”
I understood that Zimmerman had a reputation for calling to report people in the neighborhood.
But I was unaware that he was responsible for or involved in stopping actual crimes.
Could you please provide a reference to that interesting material?
TWhy is it so important to you that Zimmerman followed the advice of the dispatcher? Are you basing all of your support for George on this one fact? It is obvious by the timeline and the scene of the crime that George did NOT stay in his vehicleor go back to his vehicle.
You just want George to follow directions. You want him to be true blue and honest. Sorry, but George is none of those things when he is profiling a stranger.
People complained in the past about George and his aggressive ‘policing’ of the neighborhood- this is his form.
Shano – I asked for a CITE…not just another repetition of the assertion of what you “think” must have happened
Heck, I’ll make it an open invitation to the thread.
Can ANYONE provide a single dispassionate CITE of a police/witness report, video, that contradicts Zimmerman’s 911 call agreement to not follow Martin per dispatch thusly proving Zimmerman produced the confrontation.
FYI, I have had COPS say to me “You got a problem”? Yea, I have had people from all walks of life say that very thing to me, or something similar. It does not mean, ‘I am going to attack you right now.’.
Sorry, but the whole George story about what Trayvon said rings so so false to me. It sounds like one of your posts describing what a ‘thug’ (or person you imagine to be a thug) would say. Stereotyping by putting words in this boys mouth. it is not believable.
top snot,
It came from reading a thread full of your propaganda. You are free to say what you like, just so, I’m free to comment on what you say including calling bullshit when I see it. As for the Jew comment? What possible relevance does shano’s alleged religious preference (which I do not know) have to do with anything? Why did you mention it at all? And why did you go out of your way to say essentially “there’s nothing wrong with that” if it wasn’t relevant to your motives somehow? That’s the same thing as a racist saying, “He said that because he’s a black, but there’s nothing wrong with that. I like blacks. Some of my best friends are black.” It’s called a backhanded insult and it’s the kind of code wording racist bigoted dipshits use all the time. Yeah, shano said some things you don’t like so by implication he must be a Jew despite your admission your “wife” has no evidence of this assertion – just a feeling.
So the question to you and your sister/wife is “If shano’s religion is irrelevant (and it is), why did you bring it up at all?”
The only rational answer is to imply something about shano to others to persuade them you are right and he is wrong.
Just like your spreading of disinformation about Zimmerman.
For a propagandist, you certainly aren’t very good at it. For propaganda to work, it must be like a magic trick in execution. The message behind the message must be invisible to the common perception. Your obfuscation and misdirection skills are pitiful. Which is precisely a good thing for the rest of those reading your nonsense.
Carry on.
But you are wrong. Zimmerman did produce a confrontation. If he had followed at a discrete distance, like the NW rules state, none of this would have happened.
Shano – what you mistake for “inability to admit zimmerman made mistakes” is merely that I am not taking for a “stubborn fact” that Zimmerman produce a confrontation with Martin. I have asked for a CITE of either a police report, witness report, video, anything that contradicts the 911 recording showing Zimmerman verbally agreeing to not follow Martin after dispatch told him it was needed. Where is the cite, I’d like to see it so I and many others can change our mind about who produced the confrontation
So with ZERO data/reports/discovery,etc that Zimmerman actually followed Martin and produced a confrontation…then what mistake would you suggest he made that I am not admitting to?
Seriously, take your own advice and find a classier way to disagree with people when you get frustrated besides speaking like a thug/criminal/inmate
shano
Where did get the idea that I was a confederate? Some of you are so easily baited by just simple posts that means nothing to the poster. The reactions are what interests some of us. Of course, this case is rather interesting. That just makes it all the more interesting to have such a diverse group. My resilience and thirst for knowledge of all things never seems to fail me.
Sling –
you said this:
*Even by Zimmerman’s own account, he had a clear chance.*
Zimmerman reported as follows:
Martin: “You got a problem, homie?”
Zimmerman responds: “No”
Martin says: “You do now”
By his own account, Zimmerman was basically asked to explain his actions.
Any sane person/competent person would have replied by saying that they were with the local Neighbourhood Watch and that they didn’t recognise the person.
Are you for real? So when a person comes up to you and asks “You got a problem homie?” you honestly think “that is basically asking to explain his actions” If so you are way wrong, thats not how the street works and not the way thugs think. It’s not a question to find useful information…
Those are early warning words its about to go down and anyone who gets that said to them should brace for impact within seconds regardless of the vain retort
Then you go onto to imply that Zimmerman “enflamed” martin by saying No? What they heck was he supposed to say? Its not like he said “yes”. It was a yes/now question on the face of it
but again, it doesnt matter because Martin wasn’t looking for a real answer, he was throwing down the gauntlet and copping a “tude” to psyche himself up and intimidate. Zimmerman could have said literally anything and what followed would still have been the imitation of physical violence by Martin.
FU too Manny O. Neither of you has shown any respect for the death of this boy. it is a tragedy. the whole thing was AVOIDABLE. You cannot even admit that George made mistakes that night!