The evidence continues to roll in on the Zimmerman case. While the new evidence is not entirely bad for the prosecution, it does contain some evidence that will likely bolster the defense of George Zimmerman in the second degree murder trial over the killing of Trayvon Martin. Regardless of the ultimate impact, the evidence again shows (in my opinion) that prosecutor Angela Corey over-charged the case in Florida.
Some of the new evidence shows that Martin had traces of THC (the active ingredient of marijuana) in his blood stream and urine. Martin was suspended from school due to a marijuana offense (though it involved an empty marijuana baggie). Another benefit to the defense is that Martin father is shown denying that the voice calling out for help was his son — though he later changed that view when he says he was given a better recording. Other witnesses have indicated that it Zimmerman who was calling for help.
Generally, the existence of drugs in the system of a victim or defendant is admissible. The suspension would appear inadmissible under standard evidentiary rules.
There is also evidence that some neighbors described Zimmerman as a bully and a racist. That would help bolster the reported hate crimes prosecution being considered by the Obama Administration, though I still have reservations based on the evidence as it currently stands. Also the police viewed the shooting as “avoidable” — if Zimmerman had left the matter to the police.
I am not sure how much of the neighbor’s view of Zimmerman as a bully or racist could come into evidence. Such accounts, however, can have the benefit of further discouraging Zimmerman from taking the stand as a witness — always a benefit to the prosecution because (while they are told that a defendant has a right not to testify (jurors expect to hear from defendants).
On the whole, however, I would view the evidence as more positive to the defense. First, I have previously said that I was most interested in the distance of the shot and forensics. It now appears that Martin was shot from an intermediate range (no more than 18 inches and as little as an inch away). That would support the claim of Zimmerman that they were in a wrestling fight when the gun was fired. The greater the distance the stronger the case for the prosecution. The defense will likely present expert testimony to try to reduce the range further on the stand. Also, the report does have people at the scene saying that Zimmerman’s nose appeared broken — supporting the later medical report of the family doctor (though such injuries could occur from Martin defending himself).
Moreover, at least two witnesses appear to support Zimmerman in describing the man in the hoodie at straddling the other man and throwing punches. The report state that the man in the “‘hoodie’ [was] on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.’ He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.” One report also says that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.
While the reports blame Zimmerman for getting out of his vehicle (he says that he was trying to get a house number for the police), that is not itself a crime. Of course, none of this means that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Given the presumption of innocence and the need to prove the elements beyond a reasonable doubt, this evidence presents an added problem for the prosecution in my view. I have expressed skepticism over the way the case has developed and how it has been charged from the outset. As a criminal defense attorney, I would view this as a strong defense case even on the manslaughter charge, particularly given the poor police work at the scene.
What do you think?
Here is the police report.
Source: ABC and NY Daily News
Manny O: “Also, its shows how easily it would be for someone to circle around behind a house or out one of the gates and come up behind someone out flanking them”
Yes. Zimmerman would be very familiar with that layout.
Now while you are on a roll with finding out what the ground actually looks like:
The main gate is on the right of the picture
The clubhouse is that blue bit if you come straight in the gate. The mailboxes just beyond.
Zimmerman described where is SUV was: “straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck”
Following where that takes you, the double row of houses with the footpath between them is where the shooting happened. (behind the rightmost block)
The house that Martin was heading to is down at the end of that path towards the left of the picture.
Tell us again how Zimmerman went back to the SUV and later ended up where they both did.
Malisha – As i told Shano…all the fight related injuries were on Zimmerman. Shano will have you believe if someone died after a fight they will look flawless, no scratches/brusies, etc We all know better
SO…with all the injuries on Zimmerman, and no abrasions on Zimmermans Fists, and lots of abrasions on martins fists and no other injuries…its quite easy for someone to conclude…All punches thrown by martin=First punch thrown by martin. And a juror just looking for who threw the first punch…its an open shut case. Zimmerman Acquitted. Not saying a juror should be so 1 dimensional, but remember these are jurors, not lawyers/judges/law students : )
Look…the point about Martin having no interest in fleeing…being vicious and needlessly beating Zimmerman..etc
You can’t in one paragraph frame Martin as a scared baby bunny rabbit just trying to avoid trouble and reconcile that with the eyewitness report that Martin had ZImmerman pinned on top of him while COMPLETELY NEEDLESSLY beating the shite out of him
We already know Martin was a runner and likely a fast runner
But he decided with malevolent intent that knocking down Zimmerman wasn’t enough (assuming still he was just a scared bunny rabbit). No he didn’t take that opportunity to flee as would be consistent with a scared baby bunny rabbit.
No his behavior was more consistent with a criminal attacker whose sole motivation was great bodily harm if not murder of the hater that is Zimmerman. Otherwise…why didn’t he run when he could have gotten free of the bad ole Zimmerman?
It is amazing how idiots can take up smart peoples’ time, for hours and days. Does that say something about such a category? I not into doing diagnoses on line, but we’ve seen this phenomenom before, and I wondered then why people waste time trying to change an idiots mind. Thank goodness he does not have a gun—or does he?
Sling – We already know that Zimmerman said he was trying to locate a house number. His movement was not constrained once he followed dispatch advise. He was free to do anything else he wanted to whether it was locate a house number, go back to his SUV, go nip off from a soda, while the cops arrived en route. Whatever it was, during the activity Martin could have easily preyed on him from behind. I said maybe it didnt go down exactly that way…
But now….. that I see a hi-res picture it makes perfect sense.
Look at the large pic aerial I posted and get our your google maps
1111 Retreat View Circle – The clubhouse
111 Retreat View Circle -NorthEast corner of Retreat View circle
Between Twin Trees Ln and 2821 Retreat View circle (houses in between) – Where Martin died
Z’s SUV is on the Twin Trees Ln road just past the elbow on the way to the rear entrance that goes out onto Limestone run. The clubhouse is by the front entrance closer to S Oregon Ave
Zimmerman at first report Martin between him and the clubhouse, coming towards him at Twin Trees Ln headed East
Then he reports Martin running past him and now towards the rear entrance (headed south and then east again) that goes out onto Limestone Run. ZImmeran starts to walk South towards to the rear entrance on Twin Trees Ln but doesnt get very far and by then gets the dispatch advise to not follow.
By this time Martin has exited the complex by the rear entrance and come up on Retreat view circle on the perimiter heading north back towards Zimmerman, perhaps never actually exits and goes north between the houses and travelling West, Martin intercepts ZImmerman on Twin Trees Ln. The struggle ensues and Martin’s final resting place is the yards where houses are between Twin trees Ln and 2821 Retreat View Circle
which is right between the SUV and the outer perimeter
I just noticed the exact resting place of Martin from the discovery
Zimmerman only told them to go to the clubhouse and head on down towards his SUV (heading east before the elbow) because he didn’t have an exact address and then when Martin ran, that is why he asked them to call him once they get here since Martin was running and mobile and most likley why we would be trying to find a house number for where he last saw Martin before losing sight of him
Little did Zimmerman know he had become the prey as Martin ran to outflank and intercept Z after Martin thought better of a direct frontal approach as Zimmerman reported
Gotta hand it to Martin, outflanking Z by pretending to exit and then circling back around him and using his running speed was pretty clever though criminal
There was no dark alley, he lay dead just off the street into the property/housing area between twin trees ln and retreat view circle on the side of the property where Sandstone Run and Limestone Run are.
Manny O, you confuse your interpretations for facts; it’s not an uncommon thing, just not a very logical thing and something that can lead to trouble either in court or even in the real world. Look at your assertions:
You claim to have an eyewitness “seeing Martin more interested in continuing aggression” than in escape. First of all, under the SYG law, Martin doesn’t HAVE to be interested in escape, but furthermore, nobody can SEE his interest. I wouldn’t care if an eyewitness claimed to SEE Zimmerman’s racism leaping out of his head in great yellow thought balloons. There are things that can be seen (and cross examination on those can get interesting too) and things that cannot.
Then, you assert that “Having a gun or sword or functioning fists is not “living by them”. Choosing to use them is where you cross into the “living by them”.
Well, Manny, are you telling me that whereas you are sure Martin chose to live by his fists, Zimmerman did not make any choices but was FORCED to live by his gun? I think you’ve got this a little bit backwards. Martin wasn’t choosing any of what happened that night; Zimmerman was. You can persist in this idea that Martin was beating Zimmerman half to death while Zimmerman was crying out and begging for help, but it won’t play in front of a jury and if O’Mara gives it a try I will be very surprised, because his history down there in the Sunshine State is that he’s smart and diligent and a strategic expert.
I didn’t understand your reference to zip codes. You have no evidence at all that Martin “threw the first punch” and the reason you believe it so firmly (as if it matters, which it doesn’t) is that you want Zimmerman’s story to be true.
“and to add insult to injury he didn’t throw a single reasonable sucker punch to get Z off his feet so Martin could flee safely…NOooo…he became vicious and maniacal and with a “depraved mind” took advantage of the downed Zimmerman, sat down on top of him pinning him, and I would submit, was making good on his self-reported phrase “F them haters, I will kill em all”. Given Martin’s recent self-reported phrases of violence (bus driver) and murder(I will kill em all), its not beyond the pale to judge that Martin would have beaten him to death and left him for dead since Zimmerman seemed to fit his description of a “hater” whatever that is.”
Well, Manny O, I think that’s the problem right there. Martin added insult (he was an asshole trying to get away) to injury (Zimmerman wanted to be top-cop-big-guy and nobody was letting him do it) and Zimmerman couldn’t take it and he killed the asshole because he, big KEEMOSABE WITH GUN, was really an inadequate, unsuccessful, many-times-fired, can’t-even-stand-up-to-a-kid-in-a-fight kinda guy.
So instead of sucker punching him, as you would have wanted Martin to do, you have created this scenario in your mind where Martin is not just a presumed (read “profiled”) burglar, but he’s also a maniac, an evil depraved, vicious, blah blah blah blah who hurt poor George Zimmerman who was only looking to catch an asshole that night.
I don’t usually get ad hominem on these blogs, everyone knows that, but your latest is too obvious a case of “blame the victim” and “make up anything” to leave it without its proper critique. You have a guy who, for his own reasons, targeted someone who had done him no harm. You have the targeted person trying to defend his life, but failing. You want to make the aggressor into the big victim. So you create a really horrible fantasy, where the real victim gets more and more and more and more satanic as you go deeper into your hostile imagination. And in the end, you find yourself aligning with George Zimmerman who is now, in your distorted and disturbed vision, the big victim of a vicious unwarranted brutal “maniacal” hateful megalomaniacal assault.
Who out-victims everyone?
Psychopaths out-victim everyone.
They’re the ones who need all the sympathy. Poor Poor George.
Manny O, I say that if George really wanted to be helpful to his community, he should have purchased some tools and materials and fixed the unplanned opening in the back of the development.
Everyone thought this was where people were getting into the complex but no one did anything about it. No wonder there were so many calls, the neighborhood had probably become a public throughway or shortcut because no one bothered to close off that renegade entrance.
Here is a much larger picture you can zoom in on of the Retreat at Twin lakes
http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb690dd/turbine/la-na-nn-zimmerman-hoa-newsletters-20120518-001/4800
Hi All – Check this out
Details on the topology of The Retreat
There are 264 houses in his very large gated community.
Here is the aerial picture: http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb690dd/turbine/la-na-nn-zimmerman-hoa-newsletters-20120518-001/600
You can tell the boundaries because The Retreat houses have a maroon collored roof to give the impression of mediterranean style
The topology of the plan is OPEN and gridlike as I suspected…
Also, its shows how easily it would be for someone to circle around behind a house or out one of the gates and come up behind someone out flanking them
Zimmerman’s SUV had to have been inside the gates
It also appears the walls surrounding the commnity are not very tall…just tall enought to prevent someone from driving in, but would be easily scaled by the criminal element with easy escape in every direction
Manny O
I say again, you really need to think about what you are saying.
“Of course the cops can’t identify where Zimmermans car is at. They need an address.”
If you listen to the recording, Zimmerman tells them clearly where the SUV is
“Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck”
Now for the biggie:
Up above you make a case, based on the sounds in the recording, that Zimmerman went straight back to the SUV after saying “OK” to the dispatcher. Then….
The scenario would have been Z returned to his starting point (after losing sight of Martin and being advised by dispatch) when Martin later came up behind him and started a fight. We don’t know what happened between then and the final crime scene, but its plausible that since Z new the police may have been soon to arrive that he ran towards the clubhouse in order to flee from Martin violent instigation and hopefully have the the police see Martin chasing him further incriminating Martin. I bet Martin was faster than Zimmerman and this is why they only got some distance away before Martin took him down.”
I am not saying this is exactly how it happened
This is just as well, because you clearly have not seen the map.
The clubhouse is in the directly opposite direction from where the fight and shooting ended up.
You have Zimmerman back at the SUV, that’s about 200 feet from where they ended up.
You then have Martin coming to the SUV to start a fight.
You then have Zimmerman getting out of the SUV to fight with Martin, running towards the clubhouse, putting even further distance between them and where they ended up.
You are proposing a fight that took the pair, at this stage maybe 250 feet or more, from the SUV towards the clubhouse, back past the SUV and then a further 200 feet to where they ended up.
During all of this, Zimmerman had absolutely no way of getting away.
This would have a very unusual form of motion as from the moment the fight began, Zimmerman claims to have been pinned to the ground with Martin sitting astride him – and they moved maybe 250 or more feet while in that configuration.
Even if a fight started at the SUV and went only in the direction of where they ended up, it still doesn’t work.
If Zimmerman returned to the SUV, then he had to follow Martin again to where the fight happened.
That’s unless you are suggesting that Martin went to the SUV, dragged Zimmerman out and down behind the houses.
I say again, you really need to think about what you are saying.
When you make stuff up, do some research so that what you make up can have at least some basis for credibility.
it depends on your community. If you live in Compton I am sure there are more multiple calls to 911 every day on average. In Sanford, at this gated community its 1.044 every day on average
In safe communities where there are respectful non-violent resident and no criminal element, perhaps only a call or two over years and years in time
The broader point is not that there was a series of property felonies committed in this gated community by young black males in recent time before the Martin goat rodeo, but even over the last 14 months this place seems to be a free for all for criminal activity as evidenced by the sheer number of calls originating from the gated community. Sure not all 911 calls are legit for criminal activity, but most are as the non-emergency number is used for other non-emergencies
You have to keep up Manny, that witness is recanting : One key witness changing his story. Now undecided about who was shouting “help” that night: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-18/news/os-trayvon-martin-evidence-witness6-20120518_1_key-witness-ground-dog-fight
You are honestly going to assert that one guy that calls 911 11 times in 14 months when other residents of the SAME GATED COMMUNITY called 391 times in the same timeframe, and the 11 time guy is “not really reasonable”?.
I think it’s 12 by Zimmerman, but I don’t check that. If it were 12 he only needed 33,5 like minded Neighborhood activists. How many people do you think live in the community?
But we can of course also take your 11, in that case he need 36,6 like minded watchers.
How about the effectiveness of his calls? I am sure the 8 victim’s calls, were necessary calls. Strictly we should deduct them first.
But Zimmerman tried to handle even private problems via the police, e.g. concerning a former roommate, e.g. concerning someone who wanted to deliver food he did not order. Honestly, I do not need the police for such matters. Do you? Do you think that should be their job?
I called police maybe four times in 24 years. Three times was in connection with research into an issue. One time I reported somebody who tried to fish mail out of mailboxes with a toothbrush, oddly enough, and asked what he did, he told me he had lost his mailbox keys. Well, I knew he doesn’t live here.
Hi Shano – actually it is. The witness/police reports in the discvoery have witnesses ID’ng the person on their back on the ground pinned (Zimmerman) under the assailant throwing punches (Martin) as Zimmerman calling for help.
CITE: Page 38 of the 183 page discovery document in PSF form. Second Paragraph and Third Paragraph
Short and bitter;
1) It happened that night, but George is a loose cannor- Wonder who else he would have killed eventually.
2) I trust there is no law that I can be convicted of by suspecting Dershit is bought, by guess who (many possibities). He should not even be opening his mouth.
3) The game is rigged. Otherwise they would have leaked the statements and video reenactment. Then George would be dickering for a second-degree than a firstdegree, which his time to decide to kill Trayvon could be taken as basis for first degree.
4) The powers don’t want this to become a cause celebre, ie Martin loses..
5) Justice loses, and we all do.
6) Rodney King? Those times are gone, long gone.
You assume that was George crying for help. It is not a proven fact.
Manny, so when did this conversation happen that was heard by DeeDee and confirmed by the phone records?
this is where Georges story breaks down. If Martin attacked him by surprise and from behind, when did they exchange words?
Dead men do not show bruises, so you cannot assume that Martin was not hit by George in a long fight that covered the ground over 5 houses long, all the while chasing was reported. Who was chasing whom?
. None of the injuries George sustained are/were life threatening, and that is a fact.. You will never know who threw the first punch.
Shano – The autopsy showed no evidence of Zimmerman hitting Martin even a single time. Zimmerman has a litany of breaks/scars to show he received all the hits.
So…if martin threw all the punches, then Martin must have thrown the first punch
The only “violent” thing that Z did was utterly reluctantly shoot Martin as a last resort to save his own life after begging/pleading 14-20 times for someone to intervene as evidenced by the witness/police reports
Leander-I would posit that Martin saw Zimmerman as a “hater” that Martin had previously stated he would kill. Zimmerman was staring at Martin as he spoke with 911 and this would qualify as being a “hater’ in this day and age
Shano – Serious? All he had to say was “AT MY VEHICLE”? Shano, come meet me at my house. That should be all you need to know…. Of course the cops can’t identify where Zimmermans car is at. They need an address. Haven’t you ever broken down on a road and called AAA and what do they need? An address or at least a street and a cross street. If you cant see one from your car, you need to hoof it until you can find one or they won’t be able to find you
Shano – No, if Zimmerman hadn’t had his gun, he may not have survived before the cops could mozy on the scene
Malisha – There was an authority figure on site, he was dubbed thee by the gated community management and his co-residents. He remained calm, but Martin acted like a criminal
Sling – Again, I will poke the holes in your retort. You can avoid this by just stating the duality of possibility pre-emptivley, but that requires some level of impartiality
The scenario would have been Z returned to his starting point (after losing sight of Martin and being advised by dispatch) when Martin later came up behind him and started a fight. We don’t know what happened between then and the final crime scene, but its plausible that since Z new the police may have been soon to arrive that he ran towards the clubhouse in order to flee from Martin violent instigation and hopefully have the the police see Martin chasing him further incriminating Martin. I bet Martin was faster than Zimmerman and this is why they only got some distance away before Martin took him down. I am not saying this is exactly how it happened, but its just as plausible than those that say Zimmerman was the “chaser” and chased after Martin, except we KNOW that Martin wasn’t interested in getting away (see discovery CITE’s above), only in “killin a hater” that was staring at him that he perceived as disrespectful. Heck people get killed on buses for staring at other quite often. So Zimmerman as the prey matches more of the facts we have. It also doesnt make sense that ZImmerman could outrun and overtake Martin as Martin was lighter and more lean than Zimmerman…but that is debateable
Manny O
Now that you’ve dammed Zimmerman by ‘proving’ that he went back to the SUV – and therefore must have followed again to get to where the fight happened…
What if the second 10 seconds was him continuing in the same direction rather than returning.
That would get him 100 to 120 feet from the SUV
This would indicate that when the call ends, he still hasn’t got as far as where the fight took place.
This would mean that even after the call ends, he’s still following and looking for Martin.
Thank you Manny O for calling attention to this.
Zimmerman apparently claimed that Martin jumped him from behind while he was returning to the SUV.
Despite the jumping from behind, he reports that they managed a conversation before anybody got violent.
George chose to use his gun. He will have to live with that poor choice for the rest of his miserable life.
Still waiting for the photos of George showing the two big black eyes he would have had if his nose had actually been broken. Maybe Manny can find them.
Sorry, but George does not look all that beat up to me.