It may be me but there is something particularly unnerving about Germans declaring circumcisions illegal. Yet, a court in Cologne has declared that Jewish and Muslim parents who circumcise their sons for religious reasons are committing child abuse.
The Court held that a legal guardian’s authority over a child does not allow them to subject them to the procedure and further found that religious freedom does not justify the commission of physical harm on a child. The case involved a Muslim doctor, who performed circumcision on a four-year-old boy at his parents’ request and the boy had to be hospitalized due to complications. What is interesting is that the court somehow heard of the incident and launched a criminal investigation.
The decision strikes me as an overreach given the continued division of opinion over the benefits of the procedure. There is also the possibility of an appeal to the Federal Constitutional Court. Like many countries, Germany has more specialized courts than does the United States and this issue would appear ripe for such review.
Source: RT
The German court did not reference religious law for this decision. The religious law cannot be enforced by a civil court.
Frankly, for someone who follows a legal blog, you sure haven’t learned much about the law, or even logic. However, I will explain things for you so that you will not have to think. We don’t want to cause too much difficulties for you, as yu obviously seem to have problems enough,
The idea that “G-d created man and woman in his own image” does not refer to a physical resemblance. G-d is not a hermaphrodite, except, perhaps in the depraved minds of certain residents of San Francisco. Rather, the words from Genesis refer to spirit and soul of man and woman. The words are irrelevant to the covenant that I spoke of.
As for Leviticus 19:28, “You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the L-rd,” that clearly refers to body piercings and tattoos. So Leviticus tells you that you should not expand your earlobes so that you can insert giant rings in them, nor put rings or chains through your nose and face. (The tattoo portion speaks for itself.) Again, your suggestion is irrelevant.
On the other hand, the Biblical references to circumcision are very specific:
In the Book of Genesis as a mark of the Covenant between G-d and the descendants of Abraham: “Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old…This shall be my covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant. The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken my Covenant”
In Leviticus: “G-d spoke to Moses, telling him to speak to the Israelites: When a woman conceives and gives birth to a boy … on the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.”
The bottom line about circumcision is that it is a ritual that separates men from other animals, and it is a reminder that men should forever strive to live above the law of the jungle.
Note that I said “strive” to live above the law of the jungle. Circumcision is a DAILY REMINDER of the covenant, and that man and woman should strive to live above the law of the jungle.
Leander, it’s a bizarre thing and a troublesome and somewhat bizarre topic. The very idea of Jews in Germany is peculiar to me — I can’t even contemplate VISITING Germany because in spite of everything, it is still Germany! It would be like putting an old, disconnected electric chair in the livingroom for furniture because it could be sat in. But I did not have my own son circumsized — a weird story after all but irrelevant there — and he reached 18 with still not wanting it done, much to my relief (and he never blamed me although perhaps it would prevent him from marrying a Jewish woman who was observant). Anyway, can’t contribute anything…
Ok, I shouldn’t have sent that since I did make changes again, without checking if the changes are complete. I shut up again.
shamefully yours.
It’s a subject that makes me feel very, very uncomfortable, but without even reading this closely I am surely the one that makes most sense on the topic surely is “my friend” Mooser over in the “dissenters” lounge, once termed the “right/left posse”. They sometimes go a bit over the top, but that seems to happen if you discuss topic like this. Maybe Otteray Scribe can tell us why?
I will look more closely into this, for me local as a Cologne citizen it’s a local affair. Who is the judge? What do we know about him? It won’t hold up.
Bbut considering that “every cloud has got a silver lining”, this means that Muslim and Jews have a common way to go? Maybe they will unite here in Cologne, of all places. This would be a step ahead considering the debate surrounding the building of the Mosque. For this Cologne citizen it wasn’t so easy to swallow, how it could be that a Jewish German survivors like Ralf Giordano, someone I respect a lot, and at least one ardently German-Israeli, a manager of the self-proclaimed axis-of-the-good, joined the extreme right in their propaganda against the Mosque. ….
Personally, and I can’t talk about the sensational bereavement, from a female perspective it feels like quite an aesthetic solution. Besides I know a few Christians that did it to their sons, mainly surgeons and their friends admittedly, but these guys obviously considered it a hygienic beyond the the religious, the Bris, the covenant. I heard the same about the US, maybe these groups can join the Muslim and Jews with their non-religious argument?
Or is there any male that can enlighten us to his sensual bereavement? Must be somehow hard to tell, it feels.
Svoogle, anyone can find instances in which virtually anything results in death. Unless there are at least multiple instances of problems, then you have proven nothing. (That said, I would never permit my son to be circumsized involving any oral contact, as that is clearly unsanitary, and was the problem in the particular case you cited.)
But if you believe that one solitary example proves something, then you should never have oral sex because you could die from it.
Take the case of Felix Faure, who died via oral overstimulation. Faure was the president of France, and died in 1899. There’s some murkiness about his death but the prevailing theory is that he died while receiving oral sex, either in a brothel or from his assistant. Furthermore, Faure’s death made the woman go into shock and suffer from lockjaw… so his dead, rigor mortising genitalia had to be surgically removed from her mouth. Go ahead, look him up.
Mike A.,
I am with you. Ouch!
Berliner, is that Penal Code or Penis code? 🙂
Mike A — the statute on that is shorter than you think. 🙂
I’m going to put the old Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center on notice. Sure hope they still have their records from ’46.
Berliner,
Thanks for the as always valuable input.
I’d like to add my 2 cent imeters worth , and seeing how in the days before my memory I quite literally did, I do have some skin in the game.
I have no experience of experiencing a little more of the fore.
If I had remained whole as a baby and were offered a choice at age 18 to decide to chop or not to chop, I Garrrrranteeee all readers of this post my answer would be NOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!
The genius of this ancient custom at infancy, is a guaranteed compliance to the tenets of the elders Religious custom. It is a lifelong mark of it. I believe in ancient times depanting a male and observing his “condition” was at times sufficient information to kill the depanted. Talk about lifelong commitments. I understand in these days some woman attempt this procedure with their husbands, in a metaphorical fashion, to ensure compliance with their demands.
I hope my bloviating has helped to nip this controversy in the BUD……
NOOOOOOO
@ Ralph
“…When the procedure is perperformed by a mohel, there are no problems. …”
Wow, been brainwashed much? Sicko.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-dies-herpes-virus-ritual-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618#.T-svThdfHcw
Ralph – I noticed you didn’t reply to the poser I laid down about mutilation and piety. Skipped right over that one to call us animals. If a flap of skin is all that separates man from animals we are in more trouble than even I imagine.
Berliner – mein Dank an die anderen, die ich hinzufügen.
Hope I got that close – its been years
Ralph you only make my point for me: there is no actual superiority of man over animals. You have to invent it by mutilating young boys against their will so that you can fulfill the tenants of your magic-thinking. It’s all invented, and you are free to go on living in your make-believe world, but please do not pretend like the baby boy has any say in it whatsoever.
James in LA: You conclude that animials do not engage in wife-beating, taxes, and thermonuclear war. You are wrong. They may not have man’s technology, by they do the very sme things. For example, instead of taxing, the strongest animal simply steals from the weaker animals. Thermonuclear war? I will take some hungry wolves and throw you into their midst, and you will experience a methaphor for thermonuclear war. Getting my point? If you are still experiencing problems with circumcision, I’d suggest that you see a psychiatrist.
Berliner,
Thank you for the additional information which went a long way in clarifying the intent.
As a circumcised man, I thank my parents for having the procedure done! I have friends who are uncircumcised and the majority of them wish they had been. A couple of them actually had the procedure done as adults and the pain and discomfort they endured was far from pleasant (not to mention the higher risk of the procedure being done at a later age)! While it may seem traumatic to a baby to be circumcised, it is a painful memory which is quickly lost. I suspect that all of you who are vehemently opposed to circumcision are of the same group who want the rest of us to stop eating meat, fried food, drinking sodas and anything else that they find offensive for themselves. I say live your own lives and leave the rest of us to enjoy our “unhealthy”, but happy, lives!
@Berliner: thanks for the info!
“The bottom line about circumcision is that it is a ritual that separates men from other animals.”
So does wife-beating, taxes, and thermonuclear war, what is your point?
The quaint days of just accepting the mutilation of young boys against their will appears to be ending.