Woosty,
Love your new avatar, if it had been a picture covering the screen I would have used it for my desktop (?). Could I beg for the source hoping it was so.
BTW, glad you still pine for the old days.
But to me those old days included being able to walk the street without being harassed and required to id yourself.
That cherry was taken in LA ar McArthur Park, where I lived in ’62. Detailed here previously.
It also included being stopped trying to avoid a DUI check, and being thrown to the ground when my CAL license showed my to not belong to the protected tribe.
That also detailed here previously.
(That is the same tribe as George Z. belongs to.)
So your asking where we are going should be directed
to those governing this country, not to us the rightless.
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I have not visited Sweden. Holland, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Spain, England. All good visits. Great grandparents emigrated from Denmark but I haven’t been there. Ice cream is good. Don’t understand your last sentence.
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PS Have you visited Sweden? How quickly did you tire of vanilla ice cream?
Blond girls are cuter than blonde boys. It’s only because the men only have to quietly wait, it is the girls who have to work at it.
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Betty Kath,
Don’t really uncerstand your second reply. But your reference to odd order reminds me of my sentence structures which are often odd. I had blamed it on my using Swedish structure for 44 years. Now I found an alternative reason when re-reading on.
It was the realization that I at all costs avoid beginning a sentence with “I”. The egocentric I, for which I have been accused so many times.
So the subject will often end being oddly concealed near the end, or avoided by some hook or crook. I often use “one” to depersonalize an issue, etc.
Wonder if OS can read what’s written here without diagnosing everyone automatically?
I guess that I will revert to open use of “I” and will not stop even if someone says I am self-referential.
My position on that stands fast.
I appealed to yours, blatantly, and you enjoyed it. It’s part of life around the campfire here.
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Also, fear of giving your name to a cop???? How f(**&^%(^) crooked has this system become that regular citizens are becoming that paranoid????!
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Dredd,
Thanks. The commenters formulation is screwy. I “think” he means that by doing what the young man did, is a form of talking back, which is anything but “following the orders” of an officer, whether they are constitutional orders or not. He would seem therefore to mean that not following orders was R&O.
Anyway, still remember “don’t talk back to your momma”.
The next higher crime was “don’t sass your momma”.
I spent the first 23 years in NC. And visit the N&O editorial page to see how red clay land is developing.
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just think, soon we will all have to be lawyers to walk the streets while exercising our rights….then there will be no need for lawyers!
but seriously, I think that cop was excellent. He was not abusive, he did not escalate in manner…. the guy was less than co-operative and just this side of confrontational. I don’t want people walking down the street with guns. If that is how creepy this Country has become I am safe in saying it is truly a lawless society and the average working American is just a victim waiting to happen. Laws like Stand your Ground and Walking while Loaded and no gun control has turned the US into the Wild Wild Stupid Sitting Duck and this backward spiral away from civilization apparently won’t be recognized by our testosterone laden politicians until even bigger tradjedys happen and actually touch the hem of their robe. In fact, making the police the enemy is one of the biggest mistakes this society can make. Get rid of the graft. Get rid of the crooked courts, make the politicians HAVE to be subject to the same healthcare and other policies as the rest of us and then watch how quickly this merde abates….
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707 Thanks for the invite. When I write I usually put things backwards. The first sentence is usually moved to the end, ending sentences get moved to the top. The middle gets shuffled. Even in emails and blog posts. The thanks belongs at the top.
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707, Everything that I hear about Sweden, except the winters, is definitely favorable. In my travels to Europe I find that by week 5 I’m homesick. The sense of adventure is gone. I’m tired of not being able to understand what’s being said without a lot of work. And how do I get out of the states without being groped? Maybe a visit… by ship. Is TSA doing their thing with the ships?
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OS,
You’ll get no legal argument out of me on that one….. I do think that charging the person with R&O” of an officer was a stretch of the statue…… It was an over charge…… By the way, that’s all they ended up with because the person was not drinking, nor doing drugs….. They were diabetic……One of the reasons that sticks to my crawl…..
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Where does the ordinary citizen, who does not know the law chapter and verse have a chance?
Where does equal justice enter the picture?
If I heard right, the officer stated: “well, if you’re gonna be that guy…..” which indicates arm-twisting at least.
And the question, why are you wearing suspenders?, says the lady cop. (turns out for medical reasons)? Is he suspected for his clothing tastes, or what?
Civil, THIS TIME.
What if a repatriate had been checked, particularly a mouthy one—-dead by now.
BettyKath is welcome anytime. The winters are hell. but better than Canada’s. And the cops don’t stop people and brace them constantly here in Sweden.
And everybody under 30 speaks fluent English.
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AY, there is a key legal difference in the driving stop an the one in the video. Driving and issuing a driver’s license is a privilege granted by the state. The law explicitly states that by using your driver’s license privilege, you are giving consent to a sobriety check if requested.
There is a vast difference between a statutory privilege and a Constitutional right as enshrined in the Second Amendment. The citizen in the video was on much sounder legal grounds than your motorist. If I got any of that wrong, I am sure some of our resident attorneys will help me get the details straight.
Here’s a comment I would like help in understanding.
It comes from the source site.
“How do you assert your rights without practicing them? If you don’t use them, you’ll lose them. Its the same as “dont talk back to them” yet talking back to them is anything but following their orders, even if their orders are unconstitutional or violating your rights.”
What is meant by the second sentence?
================================
“Talking back” is a regional phrase, similar to “tell them off”, and as OS and AY pointed out, don’t go there.
It is like arguing before a court, you don’t “talk back” or “tell the court off,” rather you make civil, pointed, and purposeful argument in good faith.
Most lawyers know they cannot win every argument, however, the better ones know that they can do better by making a good faith argument while being respectful to the authority who is going to make the decision.
Similarly, if the officer knows you are using good faith, and a good argument behind it, if that officer takes exception to that, then the officer is the one who has “kicked over the traces.”
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We can count men by their actions…..
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This guy controlled a conversation that is usually controlled by the officer.
I’ve done the same – once – but there were lots of witnesses. Does this mean everyone should take a basic law class that lets us know exactly what our rights are (and the case law to back it up)? Unless we’re planning a non-violent civil disobedience, where the NLG provides basic guidelines, we tend not to know.
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“Sorry, I can’t count either. It is the sentence beginning: Its (sic) the same…….
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OS,
We agree on that….. So long as you have reasonably trained officers….. There are many parts of the world and the US….. That they’d arrest the person for “resisting and obstructing” an officer….. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that that does not happen…..
I recall once a person was arrested to suspicious of driving under the influence….. They refused a pbt and the datamaster…. They got an order to draw blood….. The person was handcuffed….. Strapped to a gurney….. Was apparently afraid of needles….. Squirmed so that it made the draw difficult….. The nurse was treated as an extension of the officer…. And they charged him with “R&O”……
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Here’s a comment I would like help in understanding.
It comes from the source site.
“How do you assert your rights without practicing them? If you don’t use them, you’ll lose them. Its the same as “dont talk back to them” yet talking back to them is anything but following their orders, even if their orders are unconstitutional or violating your rights.”
What is meant by the second sentence?
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The officer broke one of the cardinal rules of firearm safety when he racked the gun while pointing it at the pedestrian. And the citizen called him on it, as he should have.
I have taught assertiveness training classes in the past. The “broken record” technique is more powerful than people think. Keep repeating your primary point over and over without changing your tone of voice (keep it civil). There is another video of a traffic stop by a female ICE agent and the motorist does exactly the same thing. After twenty minutes of getting nowhere, the ICE agent tells him to go on his way.
The moral of that story is to not change your story, know the law, be able to recite applicable law chapter and verse, and do not become belligerent. Do that and you will be giving the officer an excuse to arrest you. Keep your tone of voice as if you were asking a store clerk where they keep the toilet paper.
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That was Portland, Maine…… Do Not try this in Texas, Florida, Arkansas, Oklahoma….. They will shoot you….. Repeat they will shoot…..
This guy has some brass cajones…… Good for him…… He got the cases right….. I wonder what happened later on….
Woosty,
Love your new avatar, if it had been a picture covering the screen I would have used it for my desktop (?). Could I beg for the source hoping it was so.
BTW, glad you still pine for the old days.
But to me those old days included being able to walk the street without being harassed and required to id yourself.
That cherry was taken in LA ar McArthur Park, where I lived in ’62. Detailed here previously.
It also included being stopped trying to avoid a DUI check, and being thrown to the ground when my CAL license showed my to not belong to the protected tribe.
That also detailed here previously.
(That is the same tribe as George Z. belongs to.)
So your asking where we are going should be directed
to those governing this country, not to us the rightless.
I have not visited Sweden. Holland, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Spain, England. All good visits. Great grandparents emigrated from Denmark but I haven’t been there. Ice cream is good. Don’t understand your last sentence.
PS Have you visited Sweden? How quickly did you tire of vanilla ice cream?
Blond girls are cuter than blonde boys. It’s only because the men only have to quietly wait, it is the girls who have to work at it.
Betty Kath,
Don’t really uncerstand your second reply. But your reference to odd order reminds me of my sentence structures which are often odd. I had blamed it on my using Swedish structure for 44 years. Now I found an alternative reason when re-reading on.
It was the realization that I at all costs avoid beginning a sentence with “I”. The egocentric I, for which I have been accused so many times.
So the subject will often end being oddly concealed near the end, or avoided by some hook or crook. I often use “one” to depersonalize an issue, etc.
Wonder if OS can read what’s written here without diagnosing everyone automatically?
I guess that I will revert to open use of “I” and will not stop even if someone says I am self-referential.
My position on that stands fast.
I appealed to yours, blatantly, and you enjoyed it. It’s part of life around the campfire here.
Also, fear of giving your name to a cop???? How f(**&^%(^) crooked has this system become that regular citizens are becoming that paranoid????!
Dredd,
Thanks. The commenters formulation is screwy. I “think” he means that by doing what the young man did, is a form of talking back, which is anything but “following the orders” of an officer, whether they are constitutional orders or not. He would seem therefore to mean that not following orders was R&O.
Anyway, still remember “don’t talk back to your momma”.
The next higher crime was “don’t sass your momma”.
I spent the first 23 years in NC. And visit the N&O editorial page to see how red clay land is developing.
just think, soon we will all have to be lawyers to walk the streets while exercising our rights….then there will be no need for lawyers!
but seriously, I think that cop was excellent. He was not abusive, he did not escalate in manner…. the guy was less than co-operative and just this side of confrontational. I don’t want people walking down the street with guns. If that is how creepy this Country has become I am safe in saying it is truly a lawless society and the average working American is just a victim waiting to happen. Laws like Stand your Ground and Walking while Loaded and no gun control has turned the US into the Wild Wild Stupid Sitting Duck and this backward spiral away from civilization apparently won’t be recognized by our testosterone laden politicians until even bigger tradjedys happen and actually touch the hem of their robe. In fact, making the police the enemy is one of the biggest mistakes this society can make. Get rid of the graft. Get rid of the crooked courts, make the politicians HAVE to be subject to the same healthcare and other policies as the rest of us and then watch how quickly this merde abates….
707 Thanks for the invite. When I write I usually put things backwards. The first sentence is usually moved to the end, ending sentences get moved to the top. The middle gets shuffled. Even in emails and blog posts. The thanks belongs at the top.
707, Everything that I hear about Sweden, except the winters, is definitely favorable. In my travels to Europe I find that by week 5 I’m homesick. The sense of adventure is gone. I’m tired of not being able to understand what’s being said without a lot of work. And how do I get out of the states without being groped? Maybe a visit… by ship. Is TSA doing their thing with the ships?
OS,
You’ll get no legal argument out of me on that one….. I do think that charging the person with R&O” of an officer was a stretch of the statue…… It was an over charge…… By the way, that’s all they ended up with because the person was not drinking, nor doing drugs….. They were diabetic……One of the reasons that sticks to my crawl…..
Where does the ordinary citizen, who does not know the law chapter and verse have a chance?
Where does equal justice enter the picture?
If I heard right, the officer stated: “well, if you’re gonna be that guy…..” which indicates arm-twisting at least.
And the question, why are you wearing suspenders?, says the lady cop. (turns out for medical reasons)? Is he suspected for his clothing tastes, or what?
Civil, THIS TIME.
What if a repatriate had been checked, particularly a mouthy one—-dead by now.
BettyKath is welcome anytime. The winters are hell. but better than Canada’s. And the cops don’t stop people and brace them constantly here in Sweden.
And everybody under 30 speaks fluent English.
AY, there is a key legal difference in the driving stop an the one in the video. Driving and issuing a driver’s license is a privilege granted by the state. The law explicitly states that by using your driver’s license privilege, you are giving consent to a sobriety check if requested.
There is a vast difference between a statutory privilege and a Constitutional right as enshrined in the Second Amendment. The citizen in the video was on much sounder legal grounds than your motorist. If I got any of that wrong, I am sure some of our resident attorneys will help me get the details straight.
Case law:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html/
idealist707 1, July 1, 2012 at 8:53 am
Here’s a comment I would like help in understanding.
It comes from the source site.
“How do you assert your rights without practicing them? If you don’t use them, you’ll lose them. Its the same as “dont talk back to them” yet talking back to them is anything but following their orders, even if their orders are unconstitutional or violating your rights.”
What is meant by the second sentence?
================================
“Talking back” is a regional phrase, similar to “tell them off”, and as OS and AY pointed out, don’t go there.
It is like arguing before a court, you don’t “talk back” or “tell the court off,” rather you make civil, pointed, and purposeful argument in good faith.
Most lawyers know they cannot win every argument, however, the better ones know that they can do better by making a good faith argument while being respectful to the authority who is going to make the decision.
Similarly, if the officer knows you are using good faith, and a good argument behind it, if that officer takes exception to that, then the officer is the one who has “kicked over the traces.”
We can count men by their actions…..
This guy controlled a conversation that is usually controlled by the officer.
I’ve done the same – once – but there were lots of witnesses. Does this mean everyone should take a basic law class that lets us know exactly what our rights are (and the case law to back it up)? Unless we’re planning a non-violent civil disobedience, where the NLG provides basic guidelines, we tend not to know.
“Sorry, I can’t count either. It is the sentence beginning: Its (sic) the same…….
OS,
We agree on that….. So long as you have reasonably trained officers….. There are many parts of the world and the US….. That they’d arrest the person for “resisting and obstructing” an officer….. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that that does not happen…..
I recall once a person was arrested to suspicious of driving under the influence….. They refused a pbt and the datamaster…. They got an order to draw blood….. The person was handcuffed….. Strapped to a gurney….. Was apparently afraid of needles….. Squirmed so that it made the draw difficult….. The nurse was treated as an extension of the officer…. And they charged him with “R&O”……
Here’s a comment I would like help in understanding.
It comes from the source site.
“How do you assert your rights without practicing them? If you don’t use them, you’ll lose them. Its the same as “dont talk back to them” yet talking back to them is anything but following their orders, even if their orders are unconstitutional or violating your rights.”
What is meant by the second sentence?
The officer broke one of the cardinal rules of firearm safety when he racked the gun while pointing it at the pedestrian. And the citizen called him on it, as he should have.
I have taught assertiveness training classes in the past. The “broken record” technique is more powerful than people think. Keep repeating your primary point over and over without changing your tone of voice (keep it civil). There is another video of a traffic stop by a female ICE agent and the motorist does exactly the same thing. After twenty minutes of getting nowhere, the ICE agent tells him to go on his way.
The moral of that story is to not change your story, know the law, be able to recite applicable law chapter and verse, and do not become belligerent. Do that and you will be giving the officer an excuse to arrest you. Keep your tone of voice as if you were asking a store clerk where they keep the toilet paper.
That was Portland, Maine…… Do Not try this in Texas, Florida, Arkansas, Oklahoma….. They will shoot you….. Repeat they will shoot…..
This guy has some brass cajones…… Good for him…… He got the cases right….. I wonder what happened later on….