Reports now indicate that all nine wounded bystanders in the recent shooting near the Empire State building were shot not by the gunman, Jeffrey Johnson, 58, (left) but by police officers.
Witnessed have complained that officers appeared to fire “randomly” in the confrontation, but the NYPD insists that the officers acted appropriately in facing the gunman. Johnson began the shooting by walking up to his former boss at Hazan Imports, Steve Ercolino, 41, (right above) and shooting him three times.
Victim Robert Asika said that the officers appeared to be spraying shots and that he saw at least two other people hit by officers.
NYPD Commissioner Kelly said that Johnson drew his .45 caliber handgun as the officers approached. The officers proceeded to fire 16 rounds, but Kelly insisted that “These officers … had absolutely no choice.” Johnson never fired at the officers.
There has been a long controversy over the switch of police officers to automatic or semi-automatic weapons with the capability if firing dozens of bullets in a clip. Critics have charged that the rate of fire has increased due to the switch with rising numbers of bystander injuries.
The question is whether someone like Asika could sue. Courts generally treat such shootings as covered by immunity rules and thus insulated from civil liability. The wounded could claim negligence in the use of lethal force by the department, but the police tend to get a great deal of deference in facing a deadly threat, particularly with someone who has already killed an individual.
The most notable case was that of Ruby Ridge, Idaho. In 1992, police sought to arrest Randy Weaver. The confrontation resulted in the death of Weaver’s son Sammy, his wife Vicki, their family dog Striker, and Deputy US Marshal William Francis Degan. The surviving family members sued and secured a settlement of $100,000 for Randy Weaver and $1 million for each of the daughters. Twelve agents were later disciplined and both the investigation and prosecution of the Weavers were criticized by officials like FBI director Louis Freeh. FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in 1997 by the Boundary County, Idaho prosecutor but it was later transferred to federal courts and dismissed on the basis of sovereign immunity.
Here is a video from the scene and the confrontation.
Source: Gaurdian
This has me wondering if this Texas woman, who was shooting at a skunk missed and shot her husband, is an ex-NYPD officer: CBS DFW
I’m sure that is exactly the thought that was going through their minds in the split second after a murderer a few feet away pulled a .45 and pointed it at them. /rolleyes.
The use of deadly force was justified. The guy had just murdered someone by shooting him in the head five times with a 45. He pulls the gun on the cops approaching him and points it at them. The cops reasonably feared being killed and shot at the guy until he went down. There’s no time to wait until there are no bystanders around. The cops fired16 shots. Seven shots hit the guy in the chest. That doesn’t seem like they’re just firing wildly to me. Three bullets were found in the body and four passed through (do NYPD cops use hollow points? if not, maybe they should)). Of the bystanders injured, three were struck by bullets and six by fragments. Anyone commenting should watch the video first.
Regarding the glock modification discussion…most semi-auto handguns are DA/SA, and some DAO ( double-action only). Double-action indicates the trigger pulls back the hammer/ striker and releases it. For many, such as Glocks, it is not true double-action, as the hammer/striker may be in a mid- position rather than all the way forward. However, it is very true that most all semi-autos can function in what’s called double-action or double action only. Most police agencies seem to prefer DAO so that there is a heavier trigger pull before firing, to prevent accidental discharge. The trade-off is the longer the trigger pull, the less accurate the shot.
Any time you see a bunch of police gathering … don’t stop to watch … get out … fast.
We are evolving in the “right” direction, which is not good.
Members of the public are becoming too expendable.
Last week a mad man ran wild with a kitchen knife in N.Y.
The police managed to shoot him dead – WOW – they don’t know where the legs or arms are located ? until they learn, disarm them.
Frankly and lona…. You got it right….
Tom, the article you link to has the following:
Emphasis mine. I rest my case.
Of course, the officers knew that they would not be held responsible for any collateral damage caused by them and therefore didn’t bother to focus on or even properly identify their intended target.
To clarify my point about the trigger:
The trigger does NOT “force back the hammer”. The slide does. The trigger is attached to a spring, and the strength of that spring is what causes the 12-pound trigger pull.
The heavy trigger pull makes it more difficult to pull the trigger, yes, but this is in no way connected to any hammer movement or cocking. Again: the slide does that.
I’m a professional writer, so I just wanted to make sure that my words were clear.
An interesting look at the Glock involved…
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/#more-153129
To “Otteray Scribe”:
Oh, I’ll correct you, all right… Your entire second paragraph is wrong!
“Secondly, the NYPD has taken the semi-automatic Glock pistols and modified them to work on double action only…
“For those who do not know, double action means the pistol is no longer truly a semi-automatic, but works more like the old west revolver where the trigger not only has to fire the shot, but to force the hammer back as well. This modification makes the firearm more dangerous to bystanders, not less.”
Huh??? NO semi-automatic pistol works this way, nor can it be “modified” to do so…
A “double action” pistol means THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you wrote. There are NO SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOLS that make the trigger force back the hammer… NONE. Only REVOLVERS do that. Period.
Please use Google to research the Glock pistol under discussion, and pistols in general.
There is absolutely no “safety” issue with the pistol. NOTHING about that weapon is unsafe or dangerous, As always, this is a case of police officers without proper “shoot/don’t shoot” training and guidelines.
Two officers fired a reported 16 shots in the most crowded city in America. THAT is the problem. Period.
Nick, those alterations to the police issued Glock pistols with the 12-pound trigger pull are a tort looking for a lawyer. Wonder if NYPD is self-insured? I have a feeling no insurance company would be willing to touch them, given their history in recent years.
I cannot even hit a target with a trigger pull of more than about 5 to 5.5 pounds. Whatever genius thought that one up needs to have some of the settlement come from his or her retirement fund.
frankly
Your post squarely hits the bullseye.
I’m sure the risk management people for the City of New York have ample experience setting aside reserves to pay claims of police action. This reserve will be heavy 7 figures.
I sure hope jobs will be lost, and that the NYPD takes a good long look at whatever gun safety training they give.
This is why we need an armed populace. That way, the cops would have an excuse for shooting random people.
Imagine an America living the NRA wet dream of an armed populace. Instead of a couple of trained professionals shooting up the sidewalks of New York you could have 15-20 yahoos in various stages of skill, sobriety and mental competence. Some of them might actually know who the actual target is while others only know that they see someone shooting a man on the street.
This is in broad daylight on the street so now put them all in a darkened movie theater with smoke bombs and panicked people. How high could the body count go?
I say ” lets disarm the police force ” until they know how to handle weapons.
If anyone knows anything different, please correct me. I have looked at the NYPD firearms training protocol and there is a dearth of combat shooting training. There is a vast difference between qualifying on the range at paper targets and combat shooting training. For one thing, combat shooting is complex, intensive, takes more time and is more expensive than just running through the minimum amount of ammunition. Combat shooting trains the officer (among other things) to have more situational awareness and look downrange from the target. Target fixation can get whoever is behind the target shot.
Secondly, the NYPD has taken the semi-automatic Glock pistols and modified them to work on double action only, with a 12 pound trigger pull. With that kind of hard trigger pull, it is a wonder an officer could hit a target as big as a bus, let alone fine targeting on the perp. For those who do not know, double action means the pistol is no longer truly a semi-automatic, but works more like the old west revolver where the trigger not only has to fire the shot, but to force the hammer back as well. This modification makes the firearm more dangerous to bystanders, not less.