This video shows a clearly obnoxious and possibly unstable individual who hounds court security with a series of nonsensical statements about not being a person. The court staff shows considerable restraint and professionalism until the man is tasered for trying to get into a court area with a camera.
In the view, the man insists “I don’t have a last name. I don’t have a first name either. I got a name, my name is Robert. You can call me Robert.” He then draws a nonsensical distinction in saying “I’m not a person. You deal here with persons, of which I am not. I’m a man.” When he denies being a citizen of the United States, but admits to being a citizen of Idaho, he then refuses to produce his license on the grounds that “My person does [have one]. I don’t. And I don’t wish to create joinder with you.” He was soon joined with a taser.
I am highly sympathetic to the court security in such a situation and I do not contest the right to keep out cameras. However, I wonder why a taser was used rather than simply restraining the man and possibly arresting him. Once again, the man is clearly rude and seems a bit off. However, we have previously discussed how tasers have become the first response in such situation and used almost casually. This man was clearly in the wrong in trying to get in despite the warning. However, he took one step and was tasered by the officer. These tasers can be deadly in some circumstances and are similar in the legal level of force to the use of a police baton. Where officers (of which there were at least four here) once physically restrained such individuals, they often now use tasers.
What do you think?
ID, so you are a member in good standing of the Zipper Chest Society! 🙂
Kraaken,
I am intimately familiar with a personal pacemeker, sinus controlled, which now is 100% active, ie no pulse arrives at the AV within the specified time. It
also initiates a pulse when none is generated by the sinus, which last I heard was about 14 percent of the time. Have had it for seven years and just got it replaced for battery reasons last Spring.
Before that I had a double bypass and an aorta valve replaced by a mechanical one. That means, as you know, warfarin and other restrictions. I am a grateful patient.
Could write much more than YOU would like to read, but of course for different reasons. I am a freak about medicine. 😉
Regarding what Otteray S contributed:
I cannot easily see, unless there were outlandish circumstances rarely encountered, where a person needs to be lit up more than twice with a Taser, and three times is a stretch.
The default setting of a LEO issued Taser is to jolt the person for 5 seconds per trigger pull (Unless it is manually turned off by putting the safety into the Safe position which will stop the shock early)
My experience with the Taser is that most of the time one hit with the Taser 90% of people will give it up and submit. I had a couple times were the person needed a second application. I suspect the reason for this might, and this is speculation, might have believed that there was only one shock to be had, the one that sent out the probes and they thought it was all we could give them. They then continued fighting and the second shock ended this belief and they gave up, knowing another one could follow.
I have only witnessed one time where we had to light up a guy a third time. This was because he was acting deranged, intoxicated and possibly on drugs, his hands and body were cut and bleeding, he was known to be Hep-C Positive and he was flicking blood around while he flailed around in his attack on us. It took three of us to control him. I ended up with a Hep C exposure due to this, but after the third test I underwent turned up negative, I guess I was lucky to not have contracted it.
Generally you don’t want to go hands on someone who is squirming around when the Taser is shocking them because if you hit one of the wires you get a jolt or two. But when the Taser stops, dogpiling the person and cuffing them up is better if it is safe to do. Best if there are two or more officers. Generally one can wait until Backup arrives under the threat of another jolt if the suspect does not behave.
Have to leave, got to stop here.
Taser’s were sold to us a an alternate to using deadly force. Now they are becoming the first choice for law enforcement who does not wish to have any physical contact with anyone.
Lol at Yael. Would you rather him use a gun? He was unlawfully trying to enter an area after being told not to. He was defiant, and therefore was restrained. It’s simple: follow the rules of the place you’re at, and nothing will go wrong. The rightfully tasered man may not recognize himself as a US citizen, but when entering a building/area that is, you must obey that places’ laws.
RE: Taser deaths.
From all I can glean from scouring the intertoobz for data, it appears that most, perhaps all, deaths from Tasers came from repeated jolts. The fellow in the Vancouver, BC airport and the woman in the Phoenix airport were reportedly hit with a large number of jolts, not just one or two. I cannot conceive of any realistic scenario where that many jolts is justified. In the UCLA library incident, the student was tased nine (9) times while the officers were screaming at him to “Get up.” How could he get up if he is flopping around like a fish in the bottom of a boat with no voluntary muscle control? Those kinds of instances are abusive, and as I said above, reflects either a rogue officer or lousy training–or both.
idealist707: >”Or perhaps Kraaken can confirm that the heart is more sensitive that my rule of thumb info would indicate, thus making the amperage factor irrelevant. Afterall, the nerve impulse levels and isolation between nerve thread in the sinus and AV area is only microvolts.”<
ID, The problem is in the exchange between the Sinus and the Atrio-Ventricular (AV) node. The electrical charge can cause the AV node in particular to fire prematurely, causing, in many cases, atrial fibrillation, in which the heart more or less 'quivers' without the contractile force needed to circulate the blood, ergo, death. That is a really basic explanation and probably much more than you wanted to know, but that's why Tasers can be fatal to people. The bad part is that, as Bettykath stated, LOTS of people might have a cardiac flaw and not even know it. I myself had a double bypass eight years ago after having never been sick a day in my life, not even the usual childhood diseases.
It was the other Nick. Ain’t my first miss. Too many balls in the air. Use it or lose it, they say. Over-use is not beneficial, maybe.
“Nick
1, September 19, 2012 at 11:47 am
This “person’s” goal from the beginning was to initiate a negative contact with security personnel, record it, and sue them………”
Nick Spinelli,
My bad. I think,at least it is mine. Not even sure which thread I am on. Too many hours sitting here. I had some remembrance of ??? but it was associated with a taser outside the courtroom, etc. Now can’t find it to cite it to justify my complaint. Thanks for the kind correction. You’re the one in the Badger state, right? 😉
Not completely out of it, but should have eaten houuurrrsss ago.
Bye for now. Food time.
I’ve never used a taser or pepper spray, although I bought a taser for my daughter when she moved into a tough neighborhood.
ID, There are 2 “Nicks” here, I’m the one w/ an Italian last name.
Nick,
Have I not said before? I will repeat: lower your profile. Riding roughshod over idiots does not work here. We are all geniuses here. And reality, if that is what you feel you got straight, most do here—gained over 30 years is not transferred in a few lines.
Now go tell me to piss off. Just prove you are pressed in not getting the acceptance on the Taser view you espouse.
People are just not going to love those who use them.
We don’t even have them or mace or peppar spray here.
We get by without. Are yours wilder than ours.
I am not subtle and neither are you.
http://www.taser.com/images/resources-and-legal/product-warnings/downloads/law-enforcement-warnings.pdf
Oh I live this part…
” Resistance to law enforcement interaction often incurs substantial risk of death or serious injury and subjects who resist law enforcement
assume all such risks of death or serious injury. ”
Uhmmm I don’t think so Taser International. The balls of these people.
Tazing? No sweat, ask Nick. How many times have you done it while angry.
NB. Did not hurt his camera which continued to function without screaming ouch.
Lesson from this anecdotal recording?
Bailiffs have learned to curb their tongues when facing cameras.
Was it seized and released after new scenes replaced the old ones? Just joking?
Nick, I notice that some commenters use “end of story” when they finish writing what they want to post. It strikes me as odd, because most stories do not end. I think one book in the Bible ends with the advice to not “change one word” but after all, none of us here is writing Holy Grail.
This “person’s” goal from the beginning was to initiate a negative contact with security personnel, record it, and sue them. Wrestling with any person who does not want to be subdued often results to injuries to both the suspect and the police. The taser is a perfect tool in this situation. End of story.
OS, thanks for the explanation about the workings of a taser; I found it interesting. At the end you state “So, the whole idea of the Taser is to incapacitate a violent person long enough to get handcuffs on them.” That makes sense to me. I don’t see anything in the video to suggest this guy was violent or threatening violence. Hence, my problem with its use in this particular situation.
I’m also a little skeptical that most taser deaths are the result of excessive or inappropriate use. I believe most taser deaths are the result the electrical shock causing fatal heart problems in the victim. The victim’s reaction to being shocked cannot be known ahead of time, so every time a cop uses a taser on someone, there’s a risk (certainly low) of death resulting. Thus, it seems to me that there needs to be a fairly high threshold met before use is warranted. And, the guy was a douche or a nuisance or uncooperative isn’t good enough.
Taser your mom and dad. If they have a heart condition it is likely to kill. Do they wear a big sign on their chest which says: “Do Not Tase, I have a heart condition”? Or for you who believe the good use of the taser, use it on your kid when he is out of line.
This is assault unless there is reason to believe the person poses a threat. Officers must be required to use the minimal force available to effectively avoid physical harm.
“series of nonsensical statements about not being a person.”
Actually they aren’t nonsensical statements. JOHN DOE, all caps, is controlled by the gov’t., they can give him a speeding ticket, make him pay fines, collect income tax, etc… but John Doe is a natural person. That may be way over a lot of people’s heads. You can with varied success, “redeem your strawman” and take back your JOHN DOE name since it basically is being used without your permission. It’s a huge uphill battle, however. You’ll need a lawyer that is proficcient in UCC law.