Reading University Atheist, Humanist and Secularist Society was forced to remove a “blasphemous pineapple” named Mohammed as a form of hateful or discriminatory speech. The pineapple was intended to spark debate over whether
The Reading University Atheist, Humanist and Secularist Society (RAHS) took part in the fair on Wednesday, in order to to “encourage discussion about blasphemy, religion, and liberty.”
The society named the pineapple Mohammed “to celebrate the fact that we live in a country in which free speech is protected, and where it is lawful to call a pineapple by whatever name one chooses.” It appears that that is not true when it comes to fruit bearing the prophet’s name. The group was told by the Reading University Student Union that, due to complaints, the pineapple would have to go . . . or at least go by a different name. The society refused but it did re-name the pineapple . . . as Jesus.
The society was then set upon by a group which took the pineapple’s name tag and the society was then forced to leave the event.
Nick Cook, vice-president of student activities at Reading University, insisted that the act of censorship was justified in order to guarantee “all students feel welcome and included in all of our activities.”
It was the classic confrontation between free speech and discrimination laws. The interesting thing is that religious organizations are increasingly being accused of violating discriminatory views, as discussed in this column. Would Muslim or Christian groups be barred for discussing view of homosexuality as a sin or, in some groups, professing the divine basis for limiting rights of women? This was clearly designed to be a provocative display and quickly led to a confrontation with what was described as five Muslim students. One approach is to say that the society could have raised the issue of blasphemy without the insulting display. Yet, the society wanted to show that what is blasphemous to some is a joke to others. What do you think?
Source: Huffington Post
89 thoughts on “Student Group Forced To Remove “Blasphemous Pineapple””
BettyKath and Gene H,
I used to love Sesame Street. I ran an in-home (licensed) day-care center and from 9 to 10 each morning, we’d all sit and watch together, if I’m remembering the time slot correctly!
Well, let’s look at today’s puzzle:
ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHERS.
We could say pagan is not a crime, so that one’s out, or we could say cucumber is not a fruit…
Don’t be a hero….
OH don’t hide….. Anonymously Yours lol lol I am a hero didn’t you know that…. lol I’m a loving mother… and care what happens to my son…. he is my only child…. No one has ever heard me say my son is perfect …. he is not…. but Shame on the United States Army for not helping him in Iraq.. when he tried to take his own life than they almost killed him at the hospital …. than some Colonel said OH no he is going home with the 3rd ID out of Fort Benning he is a hero….. they should have sent him to Germany like the orders read…. sad sad sad…
did my son make some bad chooses that night you bet he did… and pretty messed up he was… thanks to the Army and all the drugs they were pumping into him…. sad sad sad…. I am sitting here with the Bronze Star of Valor that my son got…. but what does it mean??????
My son is the hero and I’m glad the came home alive… he was gunner on Bradley and a sniper over there… anyway…. it is what it is and he will be home one day… and get on with his life… I will make sure of that….
A loving mother……. and best friend to my SON
to funny I love that song……………….. Billie don’t be a hero……. lol lol
Raw ad hominem against OS and mespo and an appeal to poverty! Woo hoo! A double score on the logical fallacies, id707.
You keep stacking them up and I’ll keep pointing them out.
“For the simple reason that you say you would call down on Messpo if you saw fit, then one can only conclude that you approve of his attack on Billie using what Messpo regards as evidence, a CBS article.”
Don’t put words in my mouth. Materially misrepresenting another’s position simply so you can attack it called a Straw Man, another form of logical fallacy. Quite simply, you have no idea what I think of mespo’s tactics because I haven’t expressed an opinion either way nor will I do so for as I have stated numerous times and you still fail to comprehend is that I don’t care.
As to the rest of your baseless accusations about “accomplice after the fact”?
Just more defective irrational illogical drivel on your part.
It’s also a really weak attempt at guilt by association, another logical fallacy.
fallacy \ˈfa-lə-sē\, n.,
1a obsolete : guile, trickery b : deceptive appearance : deception
2 a : a false or mistaken idea b : erroneous character : erroneousness
3: an often plausible argument using false or invalid inference
Stacking up those logical fallacies and compounding a display of ignorance by adhering to false statements of fact are the tools of trolls and the irrational. I’ll keep pointing out the errors. They are common tactics of both trolls and the irrational. As Marcus Aurelius said, “I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.” As long as you insist on using said tactics, I will continue to point them out completely indifferent to your motive(s).
If that presents a problem for you, again, your participation here is purely voluntary.
A university is not a town. Posting a message or a depiction on a town square bulletin board should be the closest place or forum for protected speech. But, then what speech or depiction in that highest forum would not be protected under the First Amendment? Some topics and incidents of the past arise. The Ku Klux Klan wants to sponsor highway roadside litter pickup and have their name prominently displayed on the roadsigns along that route. That route is not as high as the public square, but why not allow a racist organization to clean litter and take credit? This is a case that has been in the courts in various states. In those counties where they want to pick up the litter, the Klan in past years was a terrorist organization that burned homes and lynched people. The KKK sign on the road would imply that the Klan still ran the county and you off color people better stay in line or you will end up in the swamp just to the right of the road sign.
A state run university should not abridge freedom of religion rights or free speech rights of students, staff, faculty or others. But to allow freedom of speech and in this case a depiction of a pineapple or the pineapple itself with the appelation Mohammed might be a reduction of the Islamic person’s religious rights. Something more close to home might be a depiction of Martlin Luther King with an appellation that is derogatory: Martin Luther Coon. So when a university treads on certain rights in a purported effort to support the rights of others they are number one, not the public forum area of town square and number two, they dohave a duty to keep some order. But do they have a right to maintain some notion of civilized decorum or whatever one’s description of censorship might be?
In an all black university, the MLK insult would cause some retribution. At some lilly white place it would not. Put up a Reverend Falwell pineapple at some holier than thou white university and one would get some retribution. Perhaps the klan would offer to clean up the litter and get to put up a roadsign proclaiming their contribution to society. What the litter would be remains to be seen, but might encompass some dead bodies.
Your opinions have long since stopped making a difference to me.
Any just person can see that you are already drawn in. For the simple reason that you say you would call down on Messpo if you saw fit, then one can only conclude that you approve of his attack on Billie using what Messpo regards as evidence, a CBS article.
Now pulling skit out of your arsle and putting on the table and cálling it exhibit A, does not mean the judge will approve it as evidence.
So you are an accomplice after the fact, and are guilty of aggravating the crime. The crime of inhumanity. Nothing uncommon for you.
So enjoy yourself. I am wasting no further words on you. Adjö.
The “person” Billie, as you call her, witnessed here.
I have nothing more to say to the prosecutor, or persecutor is it should be. AKA as bullies with titles.
I see that Billie is spamming the same comment over and over. I don’t know if it is simply copy and paste or rewrites, because I am not reading them for detail. As for Billie, I get it. A mother feels her convicted son was mistreated, but having been in this business for forty years, I also know that parents are not objective sources of information when their offspring get into trouble. This is the same song, different lyrics, and I have heard it before.
Mespo is a big boy, and it looks as if he is taking the high road by not responding. He laid out, objectively, what his research discovered about the case of Billie’s son, and that is that. Nothing more needs to be said. No point in getting involved in an argument with someone who is appealing to emotion. As for Billie, whatever is said here will not shorten or lengthen your son’s sentence. It is what it is. Your son, and you, are going to have to deal with the fallout from the crime.
When one vulture lands, the others are not far behind. Welcome.
False accusations will get you nowhere. Read it from the beginning. I said in my first comment that sympathy for the mother had nothing to do with or the facts of the case, for my part.
I was accusing Messpo for abuse using “non-evidence”.
And accusing society for abuse of their sons and daughters for the sake of covering ass for their dereliction of their responsibilities to their soldiers.
As I said, and will say again, I don’t give a ratsass on the facts of this single murder case. It is Messpo’s dereliction of his responsibility as a lawyer which concerns me. This issue, he refuses to discuss, as do the rest of you. That is too hot an issue to even mention, obviously.
So crap all you will, you can not cover the corpse, it was not even there. It was the coward Messpo, who has flown away already.
And OS, thanks for removing any doubt on where you stand on justice and evidence questions. All your cute posts to the contrary on Gaelic, etc, your sayingof me that I was “being ignored by the regulars” was actually said, and which you then only INdirectly denied in principle only in an appeal to the regulars. Technically not a lie, in itself, but not the whole truth either. It was in effect a complete lie. So I have not forgotten what you did to me then.
And I have not forgotten your diagnosing me over the net.
Now that is not professsional and you know it.
And putting psychic labels on people to discount them as persons, is a well-known tactic. From the USSR, and now by the US government.
Nice nation to live in. But challenging to say the least. When our top ranks, which some might think JTs is, are so corrupt as to morals and professionalism, then we are in bad shape. But then we know that. I do.
But a no-no here as long as I have been here, which is not long, it that corruption and remedies are not often discussed when it occurs above the police level.
The non-physical violence, other than very occasional judicial temper outbreaks or egregious misconducts, are never investigated here at JTs. Why, I ask you OS, and the rest?
The latest example is Kaysieverding’s case. Have you missed that? What she expects to find here is not clear. I asked her to explain. But nary a response from the lawyer side of the blog.
Surely, you are not afraid of a suit for malpractice for commenting the system in general.
Or is it your fear of retribution from the system which you belong to. It is the latter, I believe.
So, I champion not Billie, although I sympathize. But my mind speaks out for all who are abused by the draft-dodgers, and the politicians, the one-percenters and their supporters, and the Generals who drink blood for breakfast and smell napalm at lunch. And take bribes for supper and their secret pensions.
In an aside, was reading again last evening, thus…..
Thanks again to MikeS for pointing out Russ Baker’s book on the Bushs. The facts exposed are appalling. And corruption and crime extends to all who want a share of the power, and who have their hands in our pockets.
MikeS never got rich. Now that he gave Kaysieverding his record, we know why. They were not money jobs he had. No graft there.
And you guys probably are not rich either, otherwise you would not be here wasting your time. You’d be contentedly surrounded by syncophants instead.
But criticize the judicial system, nope.
Is it a given no-no. If so, enlighten we who don’t and have not belonged to the system, but instead come here hoping to see justice pursued.
Hello Otteray……….. This is Billie……….. wow my name is everywhere….
You must have missed a few comments on here…… You are right it is what it is ….. and my son will be home in a few years…. Its just sad that the United States Army can’t take care of all our soldiers coming home from Iraq or any of those country’s….. Bring them all home is what I say…. they spend millions how to teach them to Kill but can’t take care of them when they come home….
I never said my son was perfect…. he new he was going to prison when he went back and turned them all in and himself….. and was the DA star witness and sat on that stand and told the truth…
as far as who ever he is Mesppo727272 I thanked him for printing all of that ….. it was the truth…. but unless someone was sitting in that court room or has the transcripts of the trial… I guess they wouldn’t know the facts… Mesppo727272 was quoting things from news papers and 48 hours and they are out to sell a story and make money… unless you believe everything that is printed in the news paper or hear on TV …..
Its not only my son…. there are story’s after story’s of our soldiers coming home that have killed themselves or killed someone else… or committed suicide…. its all over the news…. or sitting in Prison… I wonder how many soldiers are sitting in Prison through out the United States ???? War messes with some peoples minds to much death…. and there isn’t one person on here that has read the 28 pages of medical records that my son smuggled back from Iraq…all on Military forms… wow the drugs the Army was pumping into my son …..Unreal…..
I don’t know who this Mesppo7272727 is hmmmmm says he is lawyer well hell I can say I’m a Senator lol lol he did attack me but ya know what I am a big girl and have thick skin after the past 9 years… and believe me many many people in the state of GA know who I am….. and who’s knows this Mesppo7272727 could know me…. hell people in Washington know me lol
I just think its sad that the United States Army wasn’t there for these young men coming home….. they all gave 110 percent of themselves in Iraq… well all but Harris he was a coward… you could find him hiding behind a Bradley when the bullets starting flying… I know most of the people that were involved in this case ……. and about 103 soldiers at Fort Benning back than…. and the truth came out at Trial…. my son made sure of that… he said the truth would set him free and it will…. and Woodcoff…. wow he got 9 months in Jail 5 years probation and is no longer a felon…. he didn’t go running home and tell his mother OH guess what happened…. this Alberto Martinez murdered Richard Davis…no he kept his mouth shut… and the body laid there for 2 and half months… so what is wrong with that pic…????? like I said money talks and its not about justice… and how can get there pic on the front page of the paper…. The DA office came to my son ….. we didn’t go to them…. my son was the only one talking and speaking the truth… I can’t say that for the other young men… the one that Murdered Richard Davis he sat there at the defence table with this smug look on his face and never opened his mouth, except to answer the Judge when the Judge asked him he he understood him…. he and Mario got life in prison plus 15 years…. OH ya Woodcoff handed Martinez the Knife that killed Richard Davis… ya our justice system… its not about truth and justice for all…. money talks… Mario shouldn’t have gotten life in prison either…. but Martinez was his homie and he went right down with him…
I know that my son will be coming home and I will make sure he gets the proper care… something that the United States Army didn’t do for him like many others out there… so sad….
So I am Billie and I can speak for myself…. and tell the truth… My son is a good man… not just because he is my son I say that…. I wish he would have never gone in the Army………..
By the way, your overarching tactic is called an appeal to emotion. It’s a logical fallacy. And we all know what those are used for.
Ooo. Flattery will get you nowhere. Your alleged respect of me is irrelevant. Do not presume to dictate what I should and should not care about or address. You’ll be disappointed and I still won’t care.
Again, let me be crystal clear:
I don’t care if you express your differences or not. Free speech is your right and the policy of this blog. Personally I respect your rights even if I don’t like you. I’m real big on egalitarianism.
As to this alleged dispute between mespo and this Billie person?
I still don’t care. I haven’t even been following their exchange(s). I didn’t even read her posts on this thread. However, if she’s got a problem with mespo? Just as I told you, she can take it up with him. I’ve told you repeatedly that’s not my problem.
Not. My. Problem.
What is my problem is when people lie about American legal history and its origin. Speaking of which . . . as to your characterization of my correcting your still totally incorrect statement about the foundation of our legal system as a defense of anyone or anything other than the truth about the origins of American law?
Good luck with that. Stating you are factually wrong concerning the legal history of this country isn’t a diversion. It’s a fact. If you wish to treat it as a diversion by overreacting? That’s your choice and you clearly made it.
However, and as an aside, since you were maligning a friend of mine, I did indeed take opportunity state my opinion of him. If you don’t like that? Think its irrelevant? Too bad. Free speech is my right as well. I’ll express my opinion on anything and anyone I choose. Your approval or disapproval is irrelevant.
You haven’t demonstrated anything to me other than ignorance of legal history and that the assessment that leads to largely ignore your drivel is the correct one. I will not, however, ignore historical and factual inaccuracy.
If this presents a problem for you, your participation here is entirely voluntary.
Now if you wish to continue to attempt to draw me in to this other thing?
I will suggest you cease your futile efforts right now.
I’m simply not interested and certainly immune to your crude attempts at manipulation.
What I was (and continue to be) interested in was correcting your material misrepresentation of the history of the American legal system. You can simply admit you didn’t know what you were talking about when you claimed the Judeo-Christian tradition as a basis for our legal system or you can continue to display your factual ignorance. That is and has been my only concern.
If you wish to continue to try to garner support for your attack(s) on mespo, that’s not my concern. Again, he’s a big boy and he can handle your off-kilter nonsense himself and however he sees fit. If he should choose to address you and this Billie person? I have no issue with that. If he should choose to ignore you and this Billie person? I have no issue with that either. His apparent conflict, his choices.
Speaking after you seems presumptious. And some will consider it only an expression of bias. But that is their privilege here.
You spoke magnificently and beautifully. Such that many mothers of soldiers would have wished to have you to support them. As a former active Army officer, let me express my personal thanks.
Many here share your views about the judicial system.
And that is all I will say to you here.
And in fact all I will say about lawyer Messpo’s abuse of you.
I am proud that you contacted me privately.
You are a good and strong mother.
Thank you….. this is about all the soldiers coming home …. and don’t understand why they can’t take care of them properly… money money money… is what its about… and this measso 7272727 lol lol he might be a lawyer… and I might have pissed him off and he may know me… lol lol who knows…. I have pissed off a lot of people in Ga…. and Senators and Congressmen in the past 9 years…. lol I have always spoke the truth… and when someone starts asking direct questions… as far as government or Lawyers or Senators they go away…. lol lol just saying… well I don’t know you idealist707 but thank you for coming to my defense…
A loving Mother…….
We have to have ….Laws…. but why not enforce the ones we have and stop trying to make news laws on top of other laws…. tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth..no matter what… you will never see that in our court system….. not in my life time anyway….
why is it that the Judges and the Lawyers and the court system all have to play games…and deals…and just get in there and tell the truth period…. tell the truth…………………. what is so hard about that??? no matter what…
I sit there and watched 4 jury’s that sit on the panel of the case of the Murder of Richard Davis…. I was in that court room all week… and when my son testified for 5 hours ….Oh let me say I watched them pick the jury’s for this case and those 4 were either or had been in the service.. and when my son spoke about the war or death or the military… they all nodded there heads yes…I saw that… they understood where he was coming from… even though my son didn’t go to trial… and he took the plea bargain they understood where he had been… and what he had to do in Iraq… there are so many stories that could be told that went on in Iraq… between our soldiers ….some of you be in disbelieve of it all… very sad… shocked me…I said no way that our United States Army would act in this behavior … how wrong was I……
just saying….. lets take the money that is spent over in these other country’s and take care of our Vet’s here and feed the hungry.. here in the United States…. hell we have Vet’s living on the street… sad sad sad….
This won’t change in my life time or my son’s I am sure of that….
To Whom ever….. wow reading all of this…. I say WoW… I watched our government and our legal system at work…. in a Nation Wide Story… and its all about the deals behind close doors… who can get there pic on the front page of the paper and money talks…
So if any of you like Mespo…. have the transcripts of the trial for my son… or was sitting in that courtroom for a week watching all of this go on…. it was all about money and power.. and control… wasn’t about justice… and Fort Benning… was hiding… that were no where to be found… are you kidding they didn’t want the people to know how messed up that base was back in 2003 and 2004 with the guys have guns in the trunks of there cars and grenades in there lockers… it was crazy back than…
It sure changed my views on our legal system and justice for all… and our government….. would I want to live some place else…. NO but sure have learned a lot about our court system and lawyers… don’t get me wrong there are some good lawyers out there… and there are some bad ones …. just like Judges and DA…. Oh ya the Da Gray Congor is not longer the DA for there county in GA… he lost the election …because he did so much wrong in the case with my son…. and where is he now ?? He got his big story and was on 48 hours and pic on the front page of the paper …. and wanted to know what part he would play in the movie… what a joke…
I sure hope no one has to go through what I have been through with my son….. Iraq… The War… Government… our Justice system…. murder….prison…. it sucks… and I have gotten think skin through it all… but let me say this….. My son is my life and he is a good man and I don’t just say that because he is my son…. he has his demons and I will make sure he is going to be Ok when he comes home…
I was law enforcement… and state investigator and had to get away from it all after all of this…. changed my views on a lot of things…. and we all have our opinion on things…. we never know where life is going to take us or what is going to happen… I will say I am sick of the United States Army not taking care of our soldiers coming home….
BRING ALL OUR SOLDIERS HOME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A loving Mother…….. just saying
1, October 5, 2012 at 8:12 pm
Hello… I never said my son was perfect in any of this and he did do some wrong doing…. I hate to speak of someone so badly that has passed… but…. Richard Davis was not an angel… he slapped woman around verbally abused woman… no one at Fort Benning wanted to bunk with him… it was very well known at the base… not that he should be murdered… Harris …….I know him and he is a drunk… and a coward …. in Iraq you could find him hiding behind a Bradley when the shooting started… Harris didn’t like my son ….. and yes they did go to the store and buy lighter fluid and tried to burn the body… well that is what they did to the bodies in Iraq… because there were so many of them…. My son new he was going to prison…. and Martinez he was gang banger out in Calf… it was tattooed across his shoulders what gang he belonged to in Calf. The 103 Soldiers I spoke to didn’t trust Alberto Martinez at all… and Harris was one of the guys that didn’t trust him….
My son came down on Soldier Harris in Iraq because he was a coward.. and kept hiding every time shooting started… and almost got a few of the guys killed over there…. so yes I guess you could say Harris didn’t like my son ….. and every time I saw Harris he was drunk…
Mr Davis and his wife wanted all 4 young men dead…because there son was murdered… hell I might have too…. if my son was murdered…. and here is a bit of information you don’t know….. Woodcoff handed Martinez the knife that murdered Richard Davis that came out in the DA office with my son sitting there my son’s lawyer and the DA and the assistant DA… but the deal was already made to my son… so that bit went under the carpet….
I have 28 pages of medical records on my son… he tried to take his own life 5 days before returning home he was on suicide watch for 72 hours… he was in bad shape… did he do some wrong doing sure he did… he was the only one talking though….. Woodcoff and Mario got on the stand and lied…. Woodcoff wasn’t off in the bushes throwing up…. he was right there… he didn’t go running home and tell his mother guess what happen no he didn’t open his mouth… he got 9 months in jail… 5 years probation and is no longer a felon…. and the last I read in the state of GA for concealing of a death in the state of GA. is 10 years….
you cant believe everything you read in the paper…..They were all pretty messed up when they got back to the states…. Thank you United States Army for helping them all…. RIGHT they closed there doors to the DA’s office and everyone else…. Alberto and Mario raped a girl in Iraq and Richard Davis caught them…..Martinez had some of his buddies from Calf. calling Mario’s family in Texas threatening them or to kill them… that is a fact… the lady that wrote the book found this our… so Mario was scared and he stuck by his buddy Martinez and he went right down with him life in prison plus 15 years…. and Mario didn’t deserve that….
Is my son perfect hell no… did he murder Richard Davis no he didn’t… and to tell ya the truth I’m glad that my son didn’t get near Alberto that night he could have killed them all he was pure rage… he wanted Richard Davis dead…he came after him back in the states and planned it it came out in Trial.. and also the medic testified that they had come after Richard Davis in Iraq and cut him all up… to hear the story when Richard Davis murdered… its like they were all there for 20 min saying geeeesssss what do we do now…. no this all went down in about 3 min…. maybe 4 min….
Where was the United States Army…. when they came home ?????? no where ….. they tossed them all away like trash…. after they had given 110 percent of themselves and did what was asked of them in Iraq….
My son still has a life a head of him…. OH hell yes my son took the plea bargain… they had put in for change of venue and separate trials and it was all turned down… so this trial took place about 8 miles from the gates of Fort Benning where 18 thousand soldiers train… my son would have been sitting at that table with Mario and Martinez and he would have gone right down with them…. The deals that go on behind close doors… and money talks… and who can get there pic on the front page of the paper first is what it was all about… no justice…. my son was the biggest guy out of all of them…. So as the media said well he must be the ring leader ……. my son didn’t’ hang out with these guys…. and no he didn’t like Richard Davis … he didn’t’ like how he treated woman…
I raised my son to respect woman and never raise his hand to one…. I can’t say that about Richard Davis…. Richard Davis was going to turn Alberto and Mario in for raping that 12 or 13 year old girl at Baghdad airport …. the Army came to the jail and questioned them both on the matter… like they are going to sit there and tell the Army oh YA We raped a girl…. hell no they didn’t the Army that…..
So much crap was going on in Iraq between our soldiers it was crazy…
I wish I could bring Richard Davis back to his family… His Dad died 2 years ago… they are now together…. Mr. Davis and I liked each other and talked at trial… It was a sad day for 5 families….
Like I said did my son do some wrong going yes he did… but he didn’t murder Richard Davis…… My son said the truth would set him free… he came back and turned himself in and the rest of them and he lead the Sheriffs Office to the body… yes it laid there for 2 and half months… all of this came out in trial….
I will be right there for my son and make sure he has a life he has been through a lot… and has his demons… Alberto Martinez Murdered Richard Davis that night…. I wonder how many drugs the Army was pumping into him… they sure were pumping alot into my son…
Don’t always believe what you read in the paper or what 48 hour says or news people they want to sell a story… I was at that trial the whole week… and let me tell you Mr. Davis came up on the edge of his seat 3 times and wanting to go after Alberto Martinez in that court room… I know I was sitting behind him and his wife at trial….
A sad day for 5 families lives… changed our lives forever… Neither my son or myself have made money of any of this… we just wanted the truth…. I can’t say that for Mrs. Davis… she got 60 thousand for the movie and she has wrote a book …. and she is still trying to bring in money in over the death of her son… just saying… how sad is that….
A loving Mother…. thank you for printing all of that…. most of it is the truth…. I say bring all our Soldiers home…….
We never know where life is going to take us… Let me say I know my son is a good man I raised him… this crazy war did mess with his mind… to much death….
No one walks into the Sheriffs Office and say arrest me I have just murdered someone or I have raped someone…. I have never seen that happen…..
I don’t judge my son that night …… unless I could walk in his shoes… I do know who Killed Richard Davis and that was Alberto Martinez… and he will be in prison the rest of his life…
when they left that jail after trail they were all in the same van and they all went to Savanna GA. to be shipped out to different prison’s and my son looked at Martinez and said to him……why did you kill Richard Davis… he said just because…. so how sick does that make him….
As you say, IF, yes IF the world were like that……
BUT it is not like that. And won’t become so tomorrow.
India is great place to learn.
Like the murder of new-born girl babies. And once an obligation of widows to burn themselves to death on their husband cremation fire.
I spent only a month in India. One could spend a lifetime. And a billion do.
I did not approach you as a possible ally. I wrote my agreement on one point you made solely to demonstrate that my mind is in no way blinded by my distrust of your actions vv me. I respect you, contrary to your position on me, but I can and wiil express my differences. So forget your illusion on my tactic of searching an ally in you. You can’t be serious in thinking that I did that.
You lie as usual. That’s what I said, you lie.
You DID come to Messpo’s defense, in spite of your declaring otherwise now.
And that was on the thread where my accusation of him was made. It was brief but clearly in support of his point, which ignored my issue with him.
He did not decline to dignify my issue with him with an answer, but as you lawyers usually do, he diverted the argument to another issue, just as you attempt to do so now.
I have demonstrated my point, and underlined your cowardice in NOT facing the original issue of attacking war mothers with false evidence, as was done by Messpo.
Your relation with Messpo, is quite beside the point.
Your character witness to his benefit is ridiculous with relation to the issue, which you both refuse to address.
As far as I am concerned, further exchange of words with you is meaningless. And that is why you were not addressed in the beginning. I sought only contact with Messpo. But you and “Rafflaw-me too” came on your own initiative. That is your privilege. But let’s keep it clear on the order things transpired. And on who set down the smoke screen and the diversionary fires.
Actually, I did not feel that addressing Messpo over the issue was expected to yield more than abuse to me. Such as he gave everybody who opposed him for two days over his support for Pak-Af drone attacks on civilians. A lawyer who does that is clearly deranged, but that is not illegal.
But I mistakenly thought he might rise to the challenge to his lawyerly position when I accused him of using besmirched “evidence” in the form of a CBS article. He did NOT, of course.
As usual, you guys never asnwer the question, which is as I have asserted before, a prime debate tactic used by Obama and Romney and all pols. But not to to be honored for that.
Have the last word, you seem to think it worthwhile having it. Personally I don’t have to use Clark to express myself. My own words do quite well, without personal abuse either, only truths.
Now take your american law and smoke it. As it is practiced today, it deserves to be burnt.
If I thought mespo was out of line? I’d tell him so directly and in language here everyone could easily understand. I know I would. I’ve seen me do it before. I’m sure I’ll do it again. No one who knows me even slightly doubts this a little. I’m certain even mespo would agree to this paragraph without stipulation.
I’m now going to repeat a couple of salient points again so there is no mistake about what I do and do not care about:
What I do care about . . .
I do care when you are making a statement about the law that is simply factually wrong. The bottom line is our legal is system is NOT based on the Judeo-Christian tradition. Ours is a specifically secular government based on English common law and just a touch of civil law.
You. Were. Wrong. In. Your. Facts.
Put the words all together and you get a sentence that clearly states my problem with what you said. What you said. Not what mespo said. Here or elsewhere. Just to be clear.
Again, if you don’t like being corrected when you’re wrong, that would be your problem. Stop being wrong. Or whine when you’re corrected by people who know better and try to drag out an argument from another completely unrelated thread all over the blog in your effort be as much of a nuisance and distraction as possible.
What I don’t care about . . .
I don’t care if you want to “reprove” mespo or not. He’s a big boy and he can handle your off-kilter nonsense himself and however he sees fit. Take it up with him because . . . I don’t care what you think about of mespo. Nor do I care about in the slightest your disapproval of the way mespo dealt with someone.
Got it? Was that clear enough of a statement concerning my position vis a vis mespo, you and the conversation in question from an unrelated thread? No ambiguity or mistake as to my total not ambivalence?
I certainly hope so. Because . . .
Your problem with mespo is your problem with mespo, not mine or apparently anyone else’s. Speaking of anyone else . . .
I think your tactics such as they are suck. I’m just about the worst person you could approach as an ally on your lil’ quest to get ol’ big bad mespo. I don’t even like you well enough to bother to pretend I like you. On the other hand, he’s my friend whom I respect and admire both online and offline. I think he’s a fine decent person and a diligent and conscientious professional practitioner. If I was in trouble in his jurisdiction, he’d be the first person I called. He also has good taste in women, food, booze and classical philosophers. Your move seeking to ally me to your cause was pure genius tactically speaking. One must usually go to a bowling alley to see such strategic depth of play.
“If they want to be respectable members of modern society, then they can act like it, and not expect everyone to cave to their outdated political beliefs.”
Nor religious ones seeking legal expression, I assume too.
You are fighting the evangelisitas and the Repubs in your legislature I hope.
To Id 707 and anyone else who wants to hear and learn.
When I went to India some years ago, I booked a flight from Delhi to Agra to see the Taj Mahal. The flights were cancelled and we were offered to go by car. Driving through the landscape we were met with a road block of cows, and the driver stopped completely, for what felt like hours ! We questioned the wait and asked : why can’t you just drive through them are you a Hindu ?
NO ! he said I’m a Muslim ! Well, we joked, you could just eat any cow that got injured its a free meal ! No he said ! I don’t eat cows. But you said you are not Hindu ?? I know – but I don’t eat SOMEONE ELSE God !!!
That left us speechless and humbled. TOLERANCE, pure tolerance in his heart and mind. The reply stays with me as much as the Taj Mahal impressions; and i know that it is what we need much more of Tolerance. If the world worked more on that between religions, non religious people of all colors and languages, the world would be better. Not with laws, defining what free speech is or should be. All peoples know that a red stoplight means stop, everything can be learned with the right teachers. The mothers of yesterday.
“Geeesh, some things get lost when you have to explain.”
Indeed. I wrote a long screed in an attempt to explain our difficulties in communication. The clear and shining idea, full of all which you feel is included, is expressed in a phrase which adequately expresses it, you feel. You may dissect it, paraphrase it, expande the number of similes, metaphors, etc to infinity but none attain what you experienced when the thought occurred in your mind,
It only becomes worse the more you do. And it is just the way it is. A good friend just says “skip it” and we go on, hoping that the light shines in both minds the next time.
I know, Rome wasn’t built in a day of a week or even a year either, but Rome is there today. It’s going to be hard work to work with ignorance and hardliners of all kinds, but its worse it ! Peace, Love, Tolerance, dignity and prosperity for all. No severe laws to fence us in, nobody loves it nobody needs it. There are so many other ” laws ” that can do you job.
I know of the tragic of India and I know of the thousands of recent suicides in India because of the GMO crops being forced upon them , because the “law ” says that you have to use it or…… Laws can be Very bad.
“Anything that can’t laugh at itself doesn’t need be in charge of important things like gravity and electromagnetism.”
And it should not be in charge of what the molecules in my body do, nor of the neuron firings of my brain.
So we agree perhaps on that.
But when the main question of abusing soldier mothers with the blunt, false and inadequate argument of a CBS excerpt is ignored, then what can one say of the distraction aa to the basis of US law, be considered worth????
NOT so much I feel. Address the original point which is the whole purpose of my original conflict with Messpo.
The question was and is:
Is it ethical to abuse, using such a highly questionable basis as a CBS article full of questionalble material?
I don’t think it is ethical nor lawyerly, expecially by someone who can due to his training as a lawyer, can recognize the evidence value of the material which the article includes and is based upon.
The article is clearly biased against the mother’s son. The article ignores the evidence which supports him and presents counter material with a clear pupose to question his contention. A worthy enterprise and clearly within free speeech bounds, but when presenting facts, an article shuuld be fairhanded. And a lawyer choosing to use it should have in mind such requirements as to the evidence value of the material offered.
It is on the contrary clearly composed of citations of parts seeking to inculpate other defendants.
It includes excerpts from police interrogation, selected solely to the disadvantage of one defendant, the son of the pleading mother abused by Messpo.
The article includes words of third parts whose real motives and value as character witnesses has not been established in a court of law—at least no such verification is offered.
My opposition to Messpo’s actions and words were and are quite clearly stated.
Answer that instead of leading the discussion astray into my “mistake” in a later claim as to the basis of American law. That is a completely different matter. Return to the original question is my simple challenge.
But you strive for a disctraction from the fact that you have NOT addressed the original question, which was:
Was Messpo’s words a supportable action? Did he use a correct insrumeent? Was the evidence he offered worth considering and thus morally acceptable? Was it not abuse and unsconscionable.
I said and say NO to all questions except the last one to which I say YES.
I forgot to say that that is the CENSOR agency in Sweden where I live and thrive.
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