There is an interesting case out of Olympia, Washington where a transgender person is alleging discrimination after being asked to leave the women’s locker room due to his exposing himself to young girls. In a case that is likely to become more common with the expanded rights for transgender individuals, the question is whether schools should bar such exposure in areas with young children or teens.
The incident occurred at Evergreen State College where a 45-year-old male student, who dresses as a woman and goes by the name Colleen Francis, was naked in the women’s locker room. Young girls use the facility from the nearby Olympia High School and a local swimming club. The mother of a 17-year-old girl complained about Francis walking around naked with his genitals exposed and a female swim coach confronted him as he lay sprawled out and exposed in a sauna used by the girls. She asked him to leave and called police. However, she later apologized when she discovered that he was a transgender person. The local district attorney also declined criminal charges because he felt the “criminal law is very vague in this area.”
Francis is alleging discrimination and complained that “[t]his is not 1959 Alabama . . We don’t call police for drinking from the wrong water fountain.”
I am not convinced by the analogy, however. While I agree with the prosecutor’s view of the murky legal standard, it seems that the college and city would have a legitimate interest in barring such exposure to young girls in such shared areas. Obviously the best solution is a separate locker room but that might impose high financial and logistical challenges. If someone is still anatomically male, it presents a legitimate concern for parents. While this is a college, it is common for such facilities to be shared with local schools.
What do you think?
Source: KIROTV
Dr. Harris, thank you for your post.
I decided to wait and see what got posted for a day or so before starting to write my own reply.
In addition to being, per my primary care physician’s medical records, “high functioning autistic,” and “hyperverbal” I happen to be a post-op member of the LGBTTTQQ, or, as some of us may prefer, “genderqueer” community.
Through the assistance of some folks of national reputation at the University of Chicago Hospitals and the University of Illinois at Chicago Hospital, I have received excellent care and surgery as a member of the openly out transgender-spectrum community, much as I am openly out as a member of the autism spectrum community.
I was vividly aware of being transgendered while yet in infancy; I am among the people who rejoiced when the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) set aside the biologically-absurdly-sometimey-tragic notion of binary gender in the fall of 2011.
On the first day of kindergarten, when I arrived at the kindergarten room with my mother, the teacher told me to go to the far end of the room to play with the toys there, which I did. However, on the right were the “good toys,” and on the left were the “bad toys.” Naturally, i went to play with the good toys. Seeing me, the teacher hurried over to me, saying, “No, Brian, those toys are for the girls.”
In December of 1952, after supper, one sunday, my family went to the living room to listen to the Jack Benny program on the console radio. As was usual, the program started out with a joke told by Don Wilson. He told of taking a trip to Europe, to London, where a man was a man, to Paris, where a woman was a woman, and to Copenhagen, where a man was a woman. The late Christine Jorgensen.
The audience burst out laughing. I did not. As I wanted to hear the beginning of the program before going upstairs to use the water closet, soon after that joke, I excused myself, went upstairs, used the water closet, and went to my bedroom, which was directly above the living room, and lay down on my bed and cried, and cried, and cried with joy at knowing I was not the only one.
As for being autistic, folks who are proficient at recognizing autism spectrum people label me as being an autistic savant. Also, brain scan stuff, such as a Quantitative Electroencephalogram (QEEG) show that my brain activity is that of a prodigy, in that I have and use significant Long Term Workikng Memory (LTWM) in my work as a bioengineer doing theoretical biology as a method of unriddling the relationship between the infant-child-discontinuity, trauma as neurological injury, and human destructiveness as it takes the forms of child abuse and human war mongering.
My participation on the Turley blog has been an aspect of the field work method I do in my bioengineering-based research into public safety aspects of the structure(s) of human society.
Having attended the Fall Conference of the Erikson Institute for Education and Research of the Austen Riggs Center, in Stockbridge, Massacchusetts on October 12-13, 2012, it has become sufficiently clear to me that the work I have done for decades, which led to my doctorate in Bioengineering from the University of Illinois at Chicago, has sufficiently come to fruition as to allow me, in accord with the Code of Ethics of the National Society of Professional Engineers, to set about to petition the Wisconsin Supreme Court for a change in the Supreme Court rules to remove the effects of trauma, as time-corrupted learning, from due process in Wisconsin.
In a way that somewhat resembles Galileo, so the story goes, dropping two objects of similar size and different weights from the “Leaning Tower of Pisa,” and thereby scientifically refuting Aristotelian physics that had stood as dogma for nearly 2000 years in much of Europe, by demonstrating that Aristotelian physics was based on misinformation, the work I have done has demonstrated that the adversarial system, to the extent that it is based on the misinformation that leads people to believe that it is possible for an avoidable mistake to happen is demonstrated as a falsehood my the demonstration of my doctoral research.
While Galileo undermined a model of an aspect of realty that had lasted for about 2000 years, the basis of the adversarial system, as I sort out the findings of cultural anthropology, apparently predates the Code of Hammurabi by perhaps tens of thousands of years.
Just as it is possible to demonstrate that two objects of very different weight having insignificant “air resistance” (a seriously anti-scientific term) do not fall in a gravitational field at rates proportional to their weight, so it is possible to demonstrate, as I have repeatedly done, that the actual making of an actually avoidable mistake is observably an apparent absolute impossibility.
Because I work in accord with the Code of Ethics of the National Society of Professional Engineers, which, summarized as simply as I can summarize it, requires of me in my work that I hold paramount the public safety while working only in areas of my professional competence without deception, i realized that it would be operationally deceptive were I to undermine the adversarial system without first having designed and tested a system that will properly replace it by increasing public safety through reducing the presence of deception in human society.
That work is now completed to my satisfaction, and I will be informing the Wisconsin Supreme Court of the practical and practicable remedy for the deception that now seems to pervade the practice of law as a profession in Wisconsin.
Consider the following fair use quotation from Wilson Huhn, “The Five Types of Legal Argument, Second Edition, Carolina Academic Press, 2008, on page 10, to wit:
‘For the study of law is not a science. Rules of law are not immutable like laws of nature. Rules of law do not describe objective truth, they reflect subjective intentions The lawyer’s task is not to deduce the law from an unchanging set of firsts principles, but rather to predict how the law will emerge from a number of sources and a welter of conflicting values. As Holmes said, “The prophecies of what the courts will do in fact, and nothing more pretentious, are what I mean by the law.” Law students are not expected to memorize all the rules of law, but are expected to learn how to persuasively argue for a favorable interpretation of the law or for a change in the law.’
The core of my accomplished and diligently tested work is the making of the law a true science, one based on scientifically demonstrated and apparently scientifically irrefutable findings in the field of the science of biology that is known as neurology.
For what I find to be the first time in the whole of human existence, it has become possible for the rule of law to become based on what I take to be the most significant of the basis principles of science, the falsifiability of testable hypothesis when and if a scientific hypothesis has been formed upon misinformation not recognized as such.
The past predicament for the legal profession, and the gift of simple decency that I bring to it may perhaps be usefully illustrated by quoting an excerpt from the opinion of Chief Justice Rehnquist, in Daubert, to wit:
────────
No. 92–102
────────
WILLIAM DAUBERT, et ux., etc., et al., PETITIONERS v. MERRELL DOW PHARMACEUTICALS, INC.
on writ of certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the ninth circuit
[June 28, 1993]
Chief Justice Rehnquist, with whom Justice Stevens joins, concurring in part and dissenting in part.
“I defer to no one in my confidence in federal judges; but I am at a loss to know what is meant when it is said that the scientific status of a theory depends on its “falsifiability,” and I suspect some of them will be, too.”
I have informed some very well qualified research scientists of that view of Chief Justice Rehnquist, with typical responses being some variation of astonishment at the “scientific ignorance” of a Chief Justice, as demonstrated in Rehnquist’s Daubert opinion.
Good Grief? The method Galileo used to undermine Aristotelian physics was that of null-hypothesis/alternate-hypothesis dichotomy, with demonstration of the falsification of the null hypothesis. The method is centuries old. But the misinformation upon which the adversarial system depends is plauslbly scores of millenia older.
I am inclined to guess that the complexity of human society with respect to the adversarial system is of functionally unfathomable complexity for anyone not of the high-functioning autistic prodigious savant category.
My being profoundly transgendered may have put me so far outside any semblance of societal measures-of-central-tendency-based norms, as in folkways and mores, that my only method of survival just may have been unriddling human destructiveness faster than it has been able to destroy me.
Transgendered? Yes, my bilateral orchiectomy in 1986 was done, finally, to reduce my probability of dying from cancer at an age far younger than I have attained. However, my being profoundly transgendered made that surgery a beautiful experience for me, surgeryI deem likely would be utterly abhorrent for someone not transgendered.
Testicles gone, Premarin and Provera as replacements, Curviness that simply “feels right” to me. After I arrived at an age that is toward the older limit of menopause, I stopped taking Premarin and Provera and began taking bisphosphonates for osteoporisis control.
That, finally, leads me to respond to the core question of appropriate conduct for transgendered people. It is up to the person to decide what is personally appropriate, because anything else demeans and degrades transgendered people.
My personal solution was based on family finances. Clothes cost money, and I had a decent supply of “men”s” clothing at the time of my surgery. So, i simply kept wearing such clothes and never set out to change my birth certificate or other government-issued documents that portend to state my gender. I use the men’s rooms as though I am a man, for I only stopped testosterone and gamete production.
At a meeting of the Chicago Gender Society, of which I was a member for a number of years, one member once asked me why I did not cross-dress. To which I answered, “What makes you think I am not cross-dressed now?”
As it happens, there are men with normal testosterone and testicles who have notably greater gynecomastia than I have. Being cross-dressed when I go swimming at the local YMCA, I go topless as do men with gynecomastia.
I am in no way an exhibitionist, neither do I choose to flaunt who I am as a form of arrogant indecency.
How do I, as a biologist/bioengineer, account for the gender spectrum? The same way as I account for the autism spectrum. The same way as IA account for the entire human diversity spectrum. Without biological diversity, the human species could never have come to exist.
The biology is so very simple: “Independent assortment of genotypic and phenotypic traits.”
Quod Erat Demonstrandum?
Rev. J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E., NSPE
Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer No. 34106-6
Life Member:
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
Member:
National Society of Professional Engineers
Wisconsin Society of Professional Engineers
Association for Psychological Science
Biomedical Engineering Society
Institute of Biological Engineering
It is my intended purpose to help people through learning, to the best of my practical ability, what hurts people, so thereby to enable people to learn how to better avoid hurting themselves and others.
Shandell,
No one has suggested that what this woman did was ok. I would be very offended to find this kind of display in the sauna and outraged to see girls exposed to it. Like all social behavior, certain standards are necessary. In this case, the woman didn’t meet the standards and should have been removed. She should not be allowed back until she understood that exposing her genitals was not acceptable. A second similar display should result in a permanent ban.
My focus has been on the defense of transgenders using various facilities because it’s so easy to paint all members of an oppressed group with the bad behavior of one member of that group This thread has been an opportunity to discuss the issue of transgenders who have not had the surgery and the problems/possible solutions to the difficulties of having a physical gender that doesn’t match the inner gender. From the posts it is clear that there is no agreement on the issue except that the non-trans population should not be exposed to the genitals of the pre-op transgenders.
Frankly, I don’t want to see anyone’s genitals except in an up-close and personal interaction or in a nudist area where everyone’s is exposed.
What MikeS says.
Valerie,
“While a reasonable temporary compromise may be appropriate in some circumstances, transitioning employees should not be required to have undergone or to provide proof of any particular medical procedure (including gender reassignment surgery) in order to have access to facilities designated for use by a particular gender.”
The vagueness of the first clause up to the comma disturbs me. Obvious perhaps to others, but not to me.
Completely undefined or specified. By who’s decision, on whose intiative, by what judgement grounds, ets…..! Sounds like “authority” granting itself undefined powers.
What Mike said.
With all your concerns about LGBT issues, most of the people posting here have completely ignored the fact that some people are exhibitionists – they want to shock, and in the case of children, to corrupt. The fact that this person was laying around displaying their genitalia indicates pretty clearly that that is what this person wanted to do. The real question is: Is it in society’s best interest that middle-aged adults are free to show off their private parts to children? I sincerely hope that no one answers yes to this question.
Once a woman is living according to her gender identity, she should be able to use the women’s bathroom. I never see the genitalia of other women using public bathrooms. Why would I care if she happened to have a penis?
A pre-op man could always use the stall. Do men check out the stall to see what’s actually happening there?
Far less embarrassing all around than for her to look like a woman going into the men’s room or for him to look like a guy and going into the women’s room.
The woman in this case was not using good judgement. She should have covered her non-female parts.
While a reasonable temporary compromise may be appropriate in some circumstances, transitioning employees should not be required to have undergone or to provide proof of any particular medical procedure (including gender reassignment surgery) in order to have access to facilities designated for use by a particular gender.
That is my position, and for those of you who haven’t paid much attention, the majority of transitioned trans people are either pre-operative or non-operative.
And LK, when someone invokes their sexual orientation as authority to speak on trans matters I will point out that that authority is appropriative at best.
You know, Mr. Rogers, from “Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood,” used to say that courtesy was what you did to make other people feel comfortable. If you just plain KNOW that a bunch of young women are likely to feel uncomfortable while you display your 45-year-old male-looking penis to them in an area where they undress (and in general, feel more vulnerable than when they are fully dressed), well why the hell not avoid that possibility by using some common sense and some modesty. Women generally practice more modesty in public undressing areas than men anyway; go with it.
LK,
That sounds suspiciously like advocating a common sense approach.
valeriekeefe: “By which you mean, a cis person who has sex with other cis people feels as though they have some authority to comment on trans issues.”
—
This is a blawg that respects the First Amendment, anyone can comment on anything, don’t be a comment elitist.
The issue I see here is that a person with male genitalia was fully exposed in a sauna in a women’s locker room and the possibility was present that high-school age girls could walk in. I was in HS when I was 13 and that would have been a shock to me at the gym/locker room we used. Also, at the gym/locker room/sauna I would attend with my aunt while still HS age.
Just plain good manners kind of dictate that females with female genitalia don’t walk into male saunas naked where (youngish) boys may be present and males with male genitalia don’t walk naked into the female sauna where (youngish) girls may be present. Identity may complicate that somewhat but didn’t and doesn’t need to be an issue at all as long as she and conversely ,he keeps a towel on.
***
The last time I had to look for regs on restroom use in a federal building by federal employees the rule for transgender employees were non-existent, there were, as I recall state guidelines of some sort that, until the reassignment was complete the restroom should match the plumbing. The Office of Personnel Management now has guidance and that guidance for federal employees and restrooms and other sanitary facilities and it seems appropriate:
“Sanitary and Related Facilities: The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (DOL/OSHA) guidelines require agencies to make access to adequate sanitary facilities as free as possible for all employees in order to avoid serious health consequences. For a transitioning employee, this means that, once he or she has begun living and working full-time in the gender that reflects his or her gender identity, agencies should allow access to restrooms and (if provided to other employees) locker room facilities consistent with his or her gender identity. While a reasonable temporary compromise may be appropriate in some circumstances, transitioning employees should not be required to have undergone or to provide proof of any particular medical procedure (including gender reassignment surgery) in order to have access to facilities designated for use by a particular gender. Under no circumstances may an agency require an employee to use facilities that are unsanitary, potentially unsafe for the employee, or located at an unreasonable distance from the employee’s work station. Because every workplace is configured differently, agencies with questions regarding employee access to any facilities within an agency should contact OPM for further guidance.”
http://www.opm.gov/diversity/transgender/guidance.asp
valeriekeefe: Exactly what do you think the ‘T’ in LGBT stands for?
In this instance, transmisogynist apparently.
Otteray Scribe@ 10:46am
thanks, i’m going to give up sex now.
Valerie,
I agree with you use of honorifics. We should say Ms to anyone who feels that they are such a person.
However diagree with the rest. But no big deal.
Don’t feel this is the greatest civil rights issue, but maybe the latest. We do have greater ones, one acute one in these days is our disenfranchisement through different methods.
Secondly, as a person I would feel incomplete with the wrong gender shaped equipment between my legs.
And not just a matter of mind vs body discrepance. The male impulses to large degree are biologically centered in the testicles, and estrogen or other therapy must not quail all those “male” feelings.
This lady has troubles giving off female signals. Such are not learned in a year, but in the years when you grow and mature.
This case grew out of a racially reversed persecution/dominance game going over to a hate explosion amplified by her choice of sex. Abomination in some eyes.
OS
I disagree with the attorney’s view that the case for hate crimes is weak. It was reported here that the boy friend of the girls had hit upon the white girl and and commented on her. The black girl assailants may have taken this as a racial slur, ie her refusal. That racial component and the probable hatred of sexual “perversion” in their eyes are enough to make
them act so hatefully.
Thanks for the post.
for those who argue that ‘until reassignment surgery is successfuly completed, the set of genitalia one possesses should be the guileline’, I see your point, but we need to also consider the guidelines that those folk contemplating reassignment surgery have to follow – i.e., that they are required to live as whatever sex they are transitioning to without regard to what physical equipment they still have (or not). I’m not saying that the sex change police are going to follow someone who’s preop around to make sure that they ALWAYS use the correctly gendered restroom, facilities, etc – but it seems to me that we’re imposing requirements upon the transgendered without making sure the resources to meet those requirements are available.
As the open member of the LGTB community here, I have to agree with Gene, Bob, and Mike. Until the re-assignment surgery has been successfully completed, the set of genitalia one posses should be the guideline. The fact that we are having to have this discussion is proof that, in the final analisys, we remain the puritans that the more enlightened societies claim we are.
By which you mean, a cis person who has sex with other cis people feels as though they have some authority to comment on trans issues. The Uruguayans and New Mexicans don’t base basic human rights on surgical status, and that you feel doing so is in any way progressive is contemptible at best.
,valeriekeefe,
A rather impassioned defense and one that I think has the right direction, but misses this particular point. A transgender person who in a pre -operative state should certainly be alloeed to use the woman’s bathroom. Not being familiar though with the etiquette of a woman’s bathroom I can only rely on my conversations with women. I slso think I can rely on the informstion supplied by Lotta and Bettykath. In men’s bathrooms there is the availability of stalls and urinals. I’ve never come across anyone displaying their penis and it would be considered the height of impropriety to observe what is going on with a man in the next urinal.
This incident took place, however, in a Locker Room. This person was behaving in what seems to be an exhibitionist manner, as Shandell rightly pointed out. Some of us who support the LBGT community, and I most certainly have done so for many, many years, confuse the very real oppression with a notion that everyone who has suffered it is ennobled by it. LBGT people are human beings and not all are people of admirable character. In this instance there was an agenda being displayed that was not on its surface a salutory one and certainly not one exhibiting concern for her LBGT sisters and brothers.
Wow, you’re willfully sleazy, Jonathan. You know her pronouns and choose not to use them. I’m not going to engage further with someone who spits on basic honorifics, and it’s really sad to see how someone who claims to love liberty responds on the chief civil rights issue of our time.
Just as a cis woman shouldn’t need a transvaginal ultrasound to have access to basic human rights, a trans woman shouldn’t need a vaginoplasty for same.
For shame.
Trying again, removed the security code.