Respectfully submitted by Lawrence E. Rafferty (rafflaw)- Guest Blogger
I was struck by a news story earlier this week, not only because of its importance, but because of how little air time it received in the mass media. Earlier this week, the victims of the 2011 mass shooting in Tucson, Arizona had a chance to speak to the man responsible for those hideous acts. One statement was especially powerful and it was from the husband of Gabby Giffords, now a former Congresswoman from Arizona. I apologize for the length of the following quotations, but I think it is important to read most of what Gabby’s husband said to Mr. Jared Loughner, who perpetrated the crime.
“Mr. Loughner, for the first and last time, you are going to hear directly from Gabby and me about what you took away on January 8th, 2011 and, just as important, what you did not. So pay attention. That bright and chilly Saturday morning, you killed six innocent people. Daughters and sons. Mothers and fathers. Grandparents and friends. They were devoted to their families, their communities, their places of worship.
Gabby would trade her own life to bring back any one of those you savagely murdered on that day. Especially young Christina-Taylor Green, whose high-minded ideas about service and democracy deserved a full life committed to advancing them. Especially 30-year old Gabe Zimmerman, whom Gabby knew well and cherished, and whose love for his family and his fiancee and service to his country were as deep as his loss is tragic. Especially Judge John Roll whom Gabby was honored to call a colleague and friend and from whose interminable dedication to our community and country she gained enormous inspiration. Gabby would give anything to take away the grief you visited upon the Morrises, the Schnecks, and the Stoddards – anything to heal the bodies and psyches of your other victims.
And then there is what you took from Gabby. Her life has been forever changed. Plans she had for our family and her career have been immeasurably altered. Every day is a continuous struggle to do those things she was once so very good at. Gabby is a people person: she exudes kindness, creativity, and compassion. If she were not born with the name – “Gabby” – someone would have given it to her. Now she struggles to deliver each and every sentence. Her gift for language can now only be seen in Internet videos from a more innocent time.
Gabby was an outdoor enthusiast. She was often seen rollerblading with her friend Raoul in Reed Park, hiking in Sabino Canyon, or careening down Rillito Wash Trail on her bike, as she was the night before you tried and failed to murder her. She hasn’t been to any of those places since, and I don’t know when she’ll return. There’s more. Gabby struggles to walk. Her right arm is paralyzed. She is partially blind. Gabby works harder in one minute of an hour – fighting to make each individual moment count for something – than most of us work in an entire day.
Mr. Loughner, by making death and producing tragedy, you sought to extinguish the beauty of life. To diminish potential. To strain love. And to cancel ideas. You tried to create for all of us a world as dark and evil as your own. But know this, and remember it always: You failed. Your decision to commit cold-blooded mass murder also begs of us to look in the mirror. This horrific act warns us to hold our leaders and ourselves responsible for coming up short when we do, for not having the courage to act when it’s hard, even for possessing the wrong values.” CNN
It was hard for me to read the full statement without shedding a tear. Not just for Giffords and her husband, but for all of the families who suffered at the hands of a man who should not have been able to obtain the weapons and the ammunition that he had that fateful day. I am not advocating the rescinding of our Second Amendment rights, but I am pleading for common sense in how we turn a blind eye to the damage guns do, without ever caring about what we need to do to prevent these kinds of weapons and the size of the magazines that allow a mentally disturbed individual like a Jared Loughner, to kill and maim so many innocents.
Mr. Mark Kelly, the former Astronaut who is Gabrielle Gifford’s husband, did not stop with the perpetrator of the violence, he also took all of us to task for allowing our society and our politicians to ignore the violence and death that are brought every day to this country by people carrying guns. “Your decision to commit cold-blooded mass murder also begs of us to look in the mirror. This horrific act warns us to hold our leaders and ourselves responsible for coming up short when we do, for not having the courage to act when it’s hard, even for possessing the wrong values. We are a people who can watch a young man like you spiral into murderous rampage without choosing to intervene before it is too late.
We have a political class that is afraid to do something as simple as have a meaningful debate about our gun laws and how they are being enforced. We have representatives who look at gun violence, not as a problem to solve, but as the white elephant in the room to ignore. As a nation we have repeatedly passed up the opportunity to address this issue. After Columbine; after Virginia Tech; after Tucson and after Aurora we have done nothing.
In this state we have elected officials so feckless in their leadership that they would say, as in the case of Governor Jan Brewer, “I don’t think it has anything to do with the size of the magazine or the caliber of the gun.” She went on and said, “Even if the shooter’s weapon had held fewer bullets, he’d have another gun, maybe. He could have three guns in his pocket” – she said this just one week after a high capacity magazine allowed you to kill six and wound 19 others, before being wrestled to the ground while attempting to reload. Or a state legislature that thought it appropriate to busy itself naming an official Arizona state gun just weeks after this tragedy occurred, instead of doing the work it was elected to do: encourage economic growth, help our returning veterans and fix our education system.” CNN
The idea that any politician of any stripe could downplay the destructive magnitude of these high-capacity magazines and the weapons they feed is disgusting and sad. Without all of us taking a stand against allowing people with mental disorders from owning guns and without all of us saying it is not necessary in our society to allow these high-capacity magazines, how will the violence ever end?
Is it necessary to our Freedom as a society to allow unfettered access to guns and ammunition that is only meant to be used against innocents? Can’t common sense restrictions be put into place without the NRA and politicians crying foul? Recently in Cook County, Illinois which has seen more than its share of gun violence, the President of the County Board recently attempted to stem the gun violence by advocating a tax on bullets. It may not be the best idea, but it was an attempt to find a way to stop our youth from killing each other and her efforts were met with derision and she had to drop her ammo tax idea. Chicago Tribune
It is far past time for our society to wake up and agree that not everyone should have access to guns and high-capacity magazines, isn’t it? How many more killings will our country have to endure before We decide to put an end to it. The NRA and gun manufacturers have made a great living demonizing anyone who might suggest that common sense restrictions on gun ownership are necessary and they have made sure that guns sales are going through the roof. Will it take gun violence impacting our own families before we do anything? What can be done to stem the tide of violence with guns? It is a debate that we must have! Isn’t it? Don’t we owe it to the victims and the victim’s families to finally do something to stop the killings?
Tomorrow may be too late!
I was once put on Prozac because of pain issues…. it was worthless….
I was once put on Effexor for Depression and it made it WORSE…..
Not a LITTLE worse…. a LOT worse…
so, I had to gently decrease my dose and took about 6 months before I felt NORMAL again….
This is when I started reading about these medications….
when I asked my psychiatrist if these meds can make depression worse…
the answer was YES….
when I asked a few pharmacists if these meds could make depression worse…. the answer was YES…..
So, I am talking talking blindly about something that I have not been on… or looked into….
and the fact is…. these meds even though they can do some good….
they are massing with a persons brain chemistry….
and we have Doctors in the USA that are NOT TRAINED in diagnosing or treating depression…. however, they are allowed to prescribe these pills at will……
People may say that because there are so many guns, that NOTHING can be done…
I think that is pessimistic to think along those lines….
Canada is as close to the US culture as we can get…. YET, they have
robertgunshop, yea, that is because the ‘good old boy’ system is how they do every single thing in Az. Not a part of it? Too bad for you, the hammer of the law comes crashing down. Here it backfired in their faces big-time. What a shame. You have to feel for that sheriff and the parents, who did not confiscate his weapon…..did they even try at any point before the shooting? Or did the gun cult training overcome common sense?
Lifelong regrets and pain.
Gurl,
As long as the American society is as it is, then any efforts in terms of gun control will be useless and likely even counter-productive.
Guns as way of solving conflicts, as a necessity for self-protection, and something we see constantly used in so many TV programs, games, etc. that moving it out of our psyche is impossible. And they are making billions on the
films, TV, clothes, etc. etc. So stop, are you mad they say. It is what keeps us on edge (one of many factors for that purpose) and ready to say yes, protect me wiht the war, etc. Pay for our defense but not a nickel to health.
The sheriff knew about Laughner and because the Laughner family were political contributors, he kept it hushed up.. If they had followed through, Laughner would have been in the NICS system and wouldn’t have been allowed to own a gun.
Can’t manage the lingo.
To All non-users of SSRI drugs, ie all who don’t do anti-depressants at all, but might feel the need. Whew.
To non-SSRI users,
As a user of this class of anti-depressants I am one of the fortunate 85 percent that OS mentioned.
And it turned me from a pessmist to an optimist, putting it briefly.
What more it accomplished is difficult to say as I also go to a psychologist of the gestalt type, but where dogma never seem to show its face.
Advice: If you feel the need try, do get in touch with a qualified psychiatrist whom you trust. Getting on SSRI’s requires initially support medication to ease the anxiety associated with the first weeks after commencing use. This is a common side effect for some during the initial phase. You may need other qualified help: psychologist, curator, or whatever is suggested.
I got my first try years ago prescribed at my request by a heart doctor. This wsa due to my concern that depression had been shown to have a negative effect on the development of arterioschlerosis.***
We both made a mistake. Had to stop as the anxiety became worse. So get the support that you need.
They are not happy pills, they just help you to see life with new eyes. And that is just one patients view. Not a study.
***Don’t read medical studies and play at being a doctor.
OS,
Amazing recovery after such a trip. Won’t ask how you do it. You seem almost mellow today. Good.
Raff,
What OS says. I mean it too.
rafflaw-
“Jason,
Are you suggesting that somehow restricting persons who have been declared mentally ill or diagnosed as such should not be prevented from owning weapons? Isn’t that a reasonable request?”
People who have been involuntarily committed or legally adjudicated are already barred from firearm ownership. What do you suggest we do in addition to that that will not cause a chilling effect on those seeking treatment, violate client/doctor privilege, etc.? Who dictates what mental illnesses get you blacklisted? I keep asking the same questions and no one will answer.
justagurlinseattle-
“Fact is… the reason why we can NOT have a commonsense conversation about this subject is because we have a HUGE Pro Gun Lobby that has brain washed over have the citizens in the USA…..These people spend MILLIONS upon MILLIONS so that the truth is buried in a sea of lies and disinformation….”
And we also have an anti-gun side that uses emotional appeals, bizarre logic, and openly admits that it benefits from the general public being ignorant about firearms. Their arguments have collapsed over the last twenty years as crime has plummeted.
“or you go on to tout the stats of swimming pool deaths… and auto accidents…..Swimmingpools are not primarily made to kill those people who drown….”
So what? You are the one that brought up gun accidents killing children. Obviously their intended function is irrelevant when it pertains to accidents. The point is, it’s not difficult to safely own firearms and citing accidents (and throwing in the emotional appeal of saving the CHILDREN) is a poor rationale.
“Automobiles are for getting from point A- to Point B….
GUNS…. are made for Killing and harming LIVING Beings… PERIOD!!!!”
Some are. Many guns are designed for game or target shooting. As for the rest, 99.999% of them will never be used to harm a person. But granting that they are, yeah, I want my gun to be well-designed to harm people because any people I would harm I would do so only because they were a threat to my or my family’s lives. If you can come up with a Star Trek phaser with a reliable stun setting, I’ll switch. Until then, a gun is the best tool for the job.
“One of you said that it is a small number of Children that die each year from accidental shootings…. Tell that to the 3,000 children that die each year from Gun related deaths….”
This is the sort of thing I’m talking about. You mentioned accidental deaths, I pointed out that the accidental gun death rate for children is low and going down. You reply with a number counting all gun deaths among children, which wasn’t the argument. But let’s look at some real numbers. You’ve now jumped to 3000 deaths. The number of accidental firearm deaths for people ages 0-17 in 2010? 98. Homicide by gun for the same age group? 835. Suicides? 375. That’s well under half the number you are citing, less than a third if you don’t count suicides. I’m citing the Centers for Disease Control. Where in the world did you get 3000?
“The last 3 MASS shootings were men that were mentally disturbed….
Shoot of Gabby Giffords… That boy was so OUT THERE…. Mentally incapacitated … NOT the LEGAL Term of Mentally Incapacitated…. as we know… that has been twisted into legal term so that FEWER people, even if they are mentally disturbed, will be unable to claim an Insanity Defense….
NOT because they were not clinically insane….
That guy that shot up the movie theater in Aurora… Mentally unstable….
The Virginia Tech Shooting…. the boy was mentally unstable….
So, to tell me that having these men go through a Mental evaluation every few years… that these men would not have been found BEFORE they destroyed the lives of 50 plus families….”
Do you have any idea what sort of logistical issue it is to have every gun owner get a meaningful evaluation that often? Do you not realize how few gun homicides are of this type? The possible chilling effect on those seeking care? And all of that is irrelevant because it’s a political non-starter.
“OK… then what Do you Pro Gun people think would be commonsense ideas to decrease the Gun Deaths in the USA????”
There is no single button to push to solve the problem. It’s incredibly complex. Economic and educational inequality, a lousy criminal justice system, failing public schools, the drug war, a lousy mental health care system….
But that’s messy. That’s inconvenient for those who want magic wand solutions to real problems.
But if you force me to come up with gun-specific reforms, I’ll give it a try:
*Crack down hard on straw-purchasers.
*Increase penalties for using guns during crimes.
*Make the illegal sale of guns too risky to be worth the profit.
“MOST of the time when somebody is attacked.. they can NOT get to their gun… and if they do… they freeze and it is taken away from them….”
Where are you coming up with this stuff? I can give you a massive list of news stories where normal people successfully used guns to defend themselves.
justagurlinseattle-
“As I mentioned before, how are you defining “mental illness?” Where is the line drawn? As I said, schizophrenics have a lower incidence of being the perpetrators of gun violence than the general population.
yes…. BUT…. The man Loughner who shot Gabby Giffords was indeed Schizophrenic….
and I do NOT recall anyone here only pointing to schizophrenics….
and here is a nice little article on Anti-depressants and Violence…..
and here you laughed my theory out of the water and dismissed it as being uninformed….
well…. Read this……”
I read it and it doesn’t come close to answering any of our criticisms. SSRI use has skyrocketed over the last 20 years. And crime has plummeted. If my standards were as loose as yours, I’d point to that correlation and say that SSRIs reduce violence. But I know better.
“More often than not, antidepressants are involved. In Colorado, for instance, Police found antidepressant in Duane Morrison’s Jeep.”
Seriously, that’s proof of ANYTHING to you?
justagurl@5:19PM
Your portrayal of the NRA is wrong. The NRA has over 4,000,000 members (does not include me, BTW), and they pretty much decide what the NRA does. The gun manufacturers have their own lobbyists.
Don’t let me dissuade you, though. Folks such as yourself show me just how irrelevant gun control advocates are when exposed to that horrible condition generally known as Reality.
I am not saying that nothing will work. I think there is evidence that some specific problem oriented approaches to reducing gun violence can work, such as Project Safe Neighborhoods (although its sustainability is questionable). The fact that there are 270 million guns in the US makes prohibition impossible and I have seen no statistics that support laws like Brady Law having any significant impact on crime rates.
justagurlinseattle 1, November 11, 2012 at 4:03 pm
Dredd…
He is NEVER getting out…..
there is a special provision for people they deem too dangerous to
release from jail…. So, they can keep him as long as they want and feel that he is a danger…. and being that he is not crazy… and that he is just a whinny racist POS…. he will be there for life, I am sure…
You may think that 23 years is too light a sentence…. and I would most likely agree….
HOWEVER… Norway, has the lowest recidivism rates in the world…. MUCH lower than the USA….
The USA has a difficult time distinguishing between JUSTICE and REVENGE……
——————————————–
idealist707 1, November 11, 2012 at 4:19 pm
Dredd,
The guy in Norway won’t get out. He will come up for review and will be denied, however many times until he dies. AZ guy got 17 lifetimes. How do you get that out of him.
========================================
Ok, numbers game = life in jail for both of them.
Thanks.
JAG,
Oddly enough . . . education on gun safety is a good place to start.
The NRA used to be a REASONABLE Organization….
They were all about Gun SAFETY…..
NOW… all they are is a Pro Gun lobby being paid a LOT of money by the Gun industry, so that MORE and MORE guns will be sold, and the Firearms industry can make more money…. in turn, the NRA makes more money….
It is a CORRUPT Lobbying force that cares NOTHING about the death and destruction that it is causing….. You people just don’t see it…. they keep YOU paranoid, so that they can sell more guns…. NRA makes more money…. the Gun industry makes more money….
EVERYBODY around the NRA wins….
EXCEPT the nation that it is destroying…..
and if it is true that you want to reduce deaths….
then WHY is it that you people always block any ideas on this???
why do you NEVER suggest any ideas to help in this????
Cuz ALL I have seen here, is Pro Gun people saying that NOTHING will work…
Do you have any suggestions that might help towards decreasing the accidental deaths of Children?????
Mr. Spindell,
No, this wasn’t a discussion of gun prohibition. That conversation ended with the publication of the Heller decision. Let me remind you of the outcome: your side lost.
The conversation now is how to best stop people from killing one another. Focusing on the object is silly: not a single one of my firearms has ever gone and shot anyone on its’ own. Not a single one of my firearms has been used to shoot anyone during the entire time I’ve owned them. I submit to you that the reason for that has nothing to do with my guns and everything to do with the person that owns them.
Oh, you worked in Black areas for 15 years? How special. I was born in the Bronx and lived there, full-time. I didn’t get to the end of my day and then hop on the train to go home in a nicer neighborhood. And my time also corresponds to the Fort Apache era, and walking through Mott-Haven by daylight and doing so at night were two entirely different experiences.
And for the record, you can call me a “racist” because you haven’t anything intelligent to say. It’s what your kind does when confronted with an unpleasant truth.
Despite falling crime rates (assuming one can trust the numbers published. There’s more than a little evidence that the NYPD has been cooking the figures for years now.), Black people killing other Black people is a major problem, along with the same in Hispanic neighborhoods. Don’t give me any of your crap about this. I was there, I lived through it, including dodging bullets on more than one occasion. If you’re ready for the effort, the work is there to be done. If you think that you can reduce that death rate without saying some hard things to people that don’t want to hear it, you’re wasting your time, much as you’ve managed to waste mine today.
“I didn’t get to the end of my day and then hop on the train to go home in a nicer neighborhood. And my time also corresponds to the Fort Apache era, and walking through Mott-Haven by daylight and doing so at night were two entirely different experiences.And for the record, you can call me a “racist” because you haven’t anything intelligent to say. It’s what your kind does when confronted with an unpleasant truth.”
Dweeze,
Once again your own words which introduced the topic of skin color into the discussion:
“Put on your big boy pants and face the unpleasant reality that we (that’s all of us) need to address the people who shoot others, even if their skin contains more melanin than ours does. And that’s the real reason that cowards such as you two bleat about guns: you don’t have the stones to take on the vested interests in the minority communities.”
Are you worried that those big, bad black people are going to attack you so you add that to the discussion of whether or not to regulate weaponry? It seems to me that those are your words. Now as far as cowardice though why are you afraid to admit that you fear Black people killing you? That is the meaning of your own words. Do you perhaps have a different interpretation of what you meant, I would be glad to hear it. As for the implication that I lived in a different neighborhood, you’re right, mine was a lower middle-class neighborhood that was about fifty percent Black, it was called LeFrak City, perhaps you heard of it. Nobody ever attacked me there either but many White people in New York, probably like yourself, thought it strange I lived there. As far as what you went through in Mott-Haven at night, I was there at night too. How come I didn’t get into trouble or fights?
Maybe it was because I didn’t have the kind of stupidly, macho attitude that calls people you don’t know cowards.
Now of course when you utter words like the vested interests of the minority communities that is also racist, since we all know how well Black people are doing in this country. If you had the guts you pretend to have you could at least admit you don’t like people with too much melanin and believe them to be a threat to you. Used to be years ago that racists like you had the courage of their convictions and would openly admit their racism and bigotry. They would be proud of it in fact. Guess you lack the “stones” to admit who you are.
Ok… eliminating his quote does NOT change a thing…..
so, let me get this strait… you are a quick gun loading psychiatrist???
are you an expert in Psychiatry????
You think it is safe to hand guns to people who’s brain chemistry is being manipulated????
You know that NOT all people that have been remanded to a psych ward are crazy or mentally unstable….
YET, they are not supposed to be allowed to own firearms?????
OK…..
do know that most of the mass shootings have involved people that were on these drugs????
See, all I see you doing, is condemning any commonsense actions or suggestions what so ever… even if they are PERFECTLY legitimate for gun control to avoid putting guns in the wrong hands…..
what I have YET to see, is you suggesting anything at all that would help this problem…..
arming EVERYBODY is not the solution….
I guess that YOUR Freedom is OK as long as it is NOT your child who gets shot in the head……
3,000 children die EVERY year for your freedom….. as long as that is an OK consequence with you Pro Gun types….
when I see you people trying to find solutions to this CONSEQUENCE then I MIGHT start buying it that YOU care about other people, than yourselves…..
YET, I have NEVER SEEN or HEARD ONE Pro Gun person try to suggest any solutions to try to decrease the deaths of these children…. NOPE… not once…..
Can’t even get behind perhaps people being mandated to take Firearms safety classes….
oh well…. as one of you put it… it is a small percentage of children who die of these gun deaths….
cuz yeah…. 3,000 Children dying EVERY YEAR is a small amount…. (sarcasm)
I am not brainwashed by the NRA, and it is a bit offensive to assume that anybody who does not hold the same opinion as yourself is brainwashed. I don’t think prohibition works, not for drugs, and not for guns (given our history and the total number of guns we have in the US). If you can point me to some statistics that show “this law” reduced crime by “this much” then I would be willing to re examine my position. The idea that we should just “do something” sounds exactly like the stance people take who believe drugs should be outlawed.
Actually Tobmstone, Az sheriff Wyat Earp enforced better gun laws in than we could possibly hope for now.
Quoting mother in film I posted above: “How can a 14 year old get a automatic weapon to kill my son with when he cant even get a fresh tomato in this neighborhood?”
The community college Jared Loughner attended before the shooting demanded a psychological review before allowing him back in class. While he may have had his gun before this happened, maybe this should have triggered a gun check, a talk with him and the parents about his legally purchased Glock, etc.
OT, here is a fun film of Sotomayor, imagine Thomas trying to do something like this:
Here is a QuackWatch article about Peter Breggin. You really have to be a fringe doctor to warrant a page on QuackWatch.
http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/breggin.html
justagurl,
You are absolutely wrong about that. Antidepressants work well for about 85% of depressed persons. There is about 15% of the population for whom they do not work well. Most suicides take place when the depression is either improving or the patient is becoming depressed. Also, there are different types of depression with different etiologies. Antidepressants have been around for almost a half century, but the discovery of serotonin selective reuptake inhibitors changed the treatment landscape dramatically.
There are now treatments for atypical depression that are filling that 15% gap. To recommend a person go through life in the blackest of psychological holes and not get treatment is unconscionable.