NDAA Double Cross

Respectfully submitted by Lawrence E. Rafferty (rafflaw)- Guest Blogger

When United States District Judge Katherine Forrest blocked the implementation of Section 1021 of the infamous National Defense Authorization Act in May of this year, I thought that legal civilians of all stripes were saved from being at risk of imprisonment without trial or due process. However, an appeals court stayed Judge Forrest’s injunction and the appellate court has allowed the indefinite detention provision to be reinstated during the appeal time frame.  Business Insider

Naomi Wolf of the Guardian explains why a group of journalists sued to block the implementation of Section 1021 in the first place. “As I reported here, last spring a group of journalists and activists including Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky and Tangerine Bolen, led by counsel Bruce Afran and others, sued President Obama to halt the implementation of Section 1021 in the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), which would have allowed for the indefinite detention of Americans without charge or trial. The vague definition of who could be detained included individuals who were seen to provide “substantial support” to al-Qaida’s “associated forces” – wording that provided no protection for journalists interviewing, for example, detainees in Guantánamo, or activists and advocates working with prisoners on their cases.”  Readersupportednews 

The fact that the Obama Administration continues to argue in favor of the indefinite detention provision is sad enough, but now, while the appeal is in process, Senator Diane Feinstein has submitted a suspect amendment to the NDAA.  Her amendment would possibly allow the military to take American citizens and civilian non-citizens into detention and force them into military tribunals, instead of a trial in a United States District Court.  “To make matters worse, a recent development sees the threat of the NDAA on US citizens increasing. Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein recently introduced an amendment to the 2013 NDAA, which, at first, seems to protect Americans’ due process – but, on closer examination, can be easily misinterpreted. Afran said that the Feinstein amendment “puts a gloss” on a very dangerous situation,

“First of all, the Feinstein amendment does not say that people in the US can’t be put into military custody. It simply says they can’t be taken into indefinite military custody without ‘trial’. If they are taken into military custody, they have to be given a trial of some sort – but not due process in a civil court. The [kind of] trial this refers to would be … military tribunals. So the Feinstein amendment does virtually nothing for American citizens or people in the United States in terms of protection.”

The original law at least left the issue of military detention somewhat ambiguous, but this amendment actually makes matters worse by explicitly allowing the military to take Americans into custody. The measure infringes on Americans’ constitutional rights, asserts Afran, who explained that, since 1861, the US supreme court has written in at least four decisions that “people living in the US – citizens or not – cannot be taken into military custody and denied a trial in civil courts.” Unforunately, should the NDAA go through, this becomes the law of the land: “Our system says a law is in force unless a court says otherwise. The president is considering vetoing the bill. We don’t know if it will be passed by the House, then signed by the president. If it is, we may have to go back to the trial court.”  Readersupportednews

I am truly left wondering if Sen. Feinstein actually understands her own amendment.  I, for one, am amazed and confused that a sitting United States Senator who claims to be a progressive, can put forth an amendment that allows for the possible military arrest and detention of United States citizens and legal civilians and their only recourse would be in a military tribunal system that has been likened to a kangaroo court as applied in the Guantanamo military tribunals.  The ACLU makes their criticism of Sen. Feinstein’s amendment very clear and unambiguous.

“It might look like a fix, but it breaks things further. Feinstein’s amendment says that American citizens and green-card holders in the United States cannot be put into indefinite detention in a military prison, but carves out everyone else in the United States.

There are three problems with her amendment:

  • It would NOT make America off-limits to the military being used to imprison civilians without charge or trial. That’s because its focus on protections for citizens and green-card holders implies that non-citizens could be militarily detained. The goal should be to prohibit domestic use of the military entirely. That’s the protection provided to everyone in the United States by the Posse Comitatus Act. That principle would be broken if the military can find an opening to operate against civilians here at home, maybe under the guise of going after non-citizens. This is truly an instance where, when some lose their rights, all lose rights — even those who look like they are being protected.
  • It is inconsistent with the Constitution, which makes clear that basic due process rights apply to everyone in the United States. No group of immigrants should be denied the most basic due process right of all — the right to be charged and tried before being imprisoned.
  • It would set some dangerous precedents for Congress: that the military may have a role in America itself, that indefinite detention without charge or trial can be contemplated in the United States, and that some immigrants can be easily carved out of the most basic due process protections.”  ACLU

It is clear to this author that the hawks in Congress still control the discussion and even those who think they are helping the situation, might actually be making it worse for civilians and journalists. The few true progressives in Congress need to take control of the discussion and return us to the path that protects all civilians legally residing in the United States, whether they are citizens or not.  Journalists also need protection from this kind of repressive and foolhardy legislative attempt to “protect” us from enemies here in this country. Our Founders designed our Federal court system and it works pretty well.  Any attempts to divert civilians into a faulty military tribunal is dangerous and unconstitutional.

What do you think?  It is only your right to due process and to keep the military out of civilian matter that is at stake here!  If the appellate court decision is also appealed to the Supreme Court, how do you think the Roberts Court will handle this matter?

57 thoughts on “NDAA Double Cross

  1. “I am truly left wondering if Sen. Feinstein actually understands her own amendment.”


    That is an excellent question. I don’t know, but I suspect, that much legislation is written for, rather than by legislators.. We know this is the case with ALEC and I suspect that the Military/Industrial Complex has its’ own “go to” legislators who accept their crafted bill whole cloth. The idea that a U.S. Citizen can be detained indefinitely by the military and only released subject to a trial in a military court, is so far out of constitutional bounds as to be chilling, were it no for the fact it joins today with so may other extra-Constitutional initiatives.

  2. What Mike said.

    We might as well face up to the fact that the NDAA creates a military dictatorship and puts the last nails in the coffin of a civilian controlled democracy. Bush mortally wounded democracy with the Patriot Act and Obama seems set on administering the coup de grâce. We are no longer a democratic representative Constitutional republic, but rather a plutocratic fascist military dictatorship. If you’d like further evidence of this, consider Obama’s recent move vis a vis granting special access to the Inauguration to “special” corporate donors. The unitary executive is not responsible to the People, but rather the money that puts them in office. What citizens say or want is simply increasingly irrelevant to governments actions now.

    The NDAA is the Rubicon.

    I now no longer think a peaceful solution to the decay of democracy is possible. I thought it was unlikely before. Now it is practically impossible. The MIC/Oil/Finance/Insurance complex is the de facto government now. The rest is a bunch of lip service and sham.

  3. Gene,
    I hope you are wrong about the peaceful solution not being possible.
    Mike S.,
    You could be right that Sen. Feinstein really didn’t articipate in the writing of the amendment.

  4. “Progressives” have gone off the rails in their efforts to support Obama and retain power at any cost. It’s stunning what so many Democrats will rationalize these days, in this way. Of course Republicans are no better, just different. They’re both just statists who support increased govt control and influence in our lives; at the cost of our basic rights and liberty.

  5. When may martial law be declared, by whom, with what limits on the Constitution, and with what extra-legal powers?

    Is there where we are going now. Or are we there now?

    I think that they are desparately scared of the masses. They find that we are slowly, very slowly becoming aware. In spite of their best propaganda efforts. If post-1917 consensus building is feared to be failing, then revert to raw power methods seems to be their alternative now.

    As they twist the arms extralegally of nations through WTO, World Bank, TPP, the control of money, they are also taking away our constitutional rights. Through laws, but also by totalitarian practices and constant fear propaganda.

    Was it a member of a famous French banking family who said???:
    “When I control the money, then I don’t need to be the government.”

    It may appear oligarchical, but don’t you believe it, it is fully unified at the money level.

  6. ” I don’t know how the corporations gain from this projected increase in detention power,but it isn’t pretty..”

    Space in military prisons is limited, raff. Who do you think is going to handle the overflow? Contractors.

  7. “It might be the NyQuil talking.”


    Perhaps so, but at times it also seems as bleak to me and I rarely get colds. The problem is that the most likely violent push-back would come from those who are no different than the power structure in outlook. We’re screwed unless our human mentality changes. To counter the situation the NDAA has created effective resistance must be predicated on promoting awareness and resisting non-violently. This takes organization built upon broad based recruitment, that eschews the hierarchical model. Recently MoveOn has taken steps in this direction by trying to begin to morph into a local organization/action model. I find this very hopeful. My experience in the 60’s taught me about the fact that MY leaders could be just as crazy as the leaders I opposed. Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin were in the end sociopaths looking to get laid. Paul Krassner and Ken Kesey on the other hand abjured leadership, preferring to let their writing speak for them. They never sold out. Neither did Dylan or Bruce Springsteen and their integrity came from the fact they never wanted to lead anyone, merely be artists, musicians and songwriters.

    My one run for political office, the Presidency of my Union in 1969, proved to me in retrospect the problems of leadership. In that losing effort, convinced by my obvious charisma that I would win, I sold out all my beliefs halfway through the process. The reason was that it became about winning to me, rather than the principles I stood for. Self examination after my loss ruefully showed me my own flaws and gave me insight into those seeking political leadership. Last time I ever “ran” for anything.

    We can join into a coalition specifically targeting NDAA if we realize common ground between the Left, Libertarians, true Conservatives, and iconoclasts. Philosophically, on this particular question there is across the board agreement.
    As an example I give you the emerging success of gay rights. With my advanced age I remember well the times when gay people were constantly in danger of police action. Their situation was quite similar to that of Jim Crow. What’s changed is consciousness.

    America is still suffering from the aftereffects of 9/11 and by this I mean not the actual horrific act, but the uses the sociopaths put it to in frightening this country.
    As we know NDAA is a direct result of these machinations. The question then devolves to how do we work to allay this country’s fears of alien bogeymen effectively?

  8. ” I don’t know how the corporations gain from this projected increase in detention power,but it isn’t pretty..”

    Space in military prisons is limited, raff. Who do you think is going to handle the overflow? Contractors.
    And more of the private prisons are using prisoners to do work for corporations. The prisoners are paid next to nothing. The corporations pay the prison corporations. The corporations still get their products or services at the cheap. And they get to say that their products are made in USA. Just a great big win all around …. if you like slavery.

  9. from waynemadsenreport.com

    Stanley McChrystal, who said, “We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat.” is missing from this list. He was replaced by Patreaus who didn’t have a problem with killing Muslims.

    Members Of Romney For President Military Advisory Council (or is that Emergency COMmunications CONtrol — ECOMCON — from “Seven Days in May?”

    Admiral James B. Busey, USN, (Ret.)
    General James T. Conway, USMC, (Ret.)
    General Terrence R. Dake, USMC, (Ret)
    Admiral James O. Ellis, USN, (Ret.)
    Admiral Mark Fitzgerald, USM, (Ret.)
    General Ronald R. Fogleman, USAF, (Ret)
    Admiral S. Robert Foley Jr.,USN, (Ret.)
    General Tommy Franks, USA, (Ret)
    General Alfred Hansen, USAF, (Ret)
    Admiral Ronald Jackson Hays, USN, (Ret)
    Admiral Thomas Bibb Hayward, USN, (Ret)
    General Chuck Albert Horner, USAF, (Ret)
    Admiral Jerome LaMarr Johnson, USN, (Ret)
    Admiral Timothy J. Keating, USN, (Ret)
    General Paul X. Kelley, USMC, (Ret)
    General William Kernan, USA, (Ret)
    Admiral George E.R. Kinnear II, USN, (Ret)
    General William L. Kirk, USAF, (Ret)
    General James J. Lindsay, USA, (Ret)
    General William R. Looney III, USAF, (Ret)
    Admiral Hank Mauz, USN, (Ret)
    General Robert Magnus, USMC, (Ret)
    Admiral Paul David Miller, USN, (Ret)
    General Robert C. Oaks, USAF, (Ret.)
    General Henry Hugh Shelton, USA, (Ret)
    General Lance Smith, USAF, (Ret)
    Admiral Leighton Smith, Jr., USN, (Ret)
    General Ronald W. Yates, USAF, (Ret)
    Admiral Ronald J. Zlatoper, USN, (Ret)
    Lieutenant General James Abrahamson, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Teddy G. Allen, USA, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Edgar Anderson, Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Marcus A. Anderson, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Buck Bedard, USMC, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral A. Bruce Beran, USCG, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Lyle Bien, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Harold Blot, USMC, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General H. Steven Blum, USA, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Mike Bowman III, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Mike Bucchi, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Walter E. Buchanan III, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Richard A. Burpee, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General William Campbell, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General James E. Chambers, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Edward W. Clexton, Jr., USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General John B. Conaway, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Marvin Covault, USA, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Terry M. Cross, USCG, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral William Adam Dougherty, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Brett Dula, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral William Earner, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General John S. Fairfield, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Gordon E. Fornell, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral David Frost, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Henry C. Giffin III, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Peter M. Hekman, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Richard D. Herr, USCG, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Thomas J Hickey, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Walter S. Hogle, Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Ronald W. Iverson, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Donald W. Jones, USA, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Douglas J. Katz, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Jay W. Kelley, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Tom Kilcline, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Timothy A. Kinnan, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Harold Koenig, M.D., USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Albert H. Konetzni, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Buford Derald Lary, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Frank Libutti, USMC, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Stephen Loftus, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Michael Malone, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Edward H. Martin, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral John J. Mazach, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Justin D. McCarthy, USN, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral William McCauley, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Fred McCorkle, USMC, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Thomas G. McInerney, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Joseph S. Mobley, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Carol Mutter, USMC, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Ira Owens, USA, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Dave R. Palmer, USA, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral John Theodore “Ted” Parker, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Garry L. Parks, USMC, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Charles Henry “Chuck” Pitman, USMC, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Steven R. Polk, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral William E. Ramsey, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Joseph J. Redden, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Clifford H. “Ted” Rees, Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Edward Rowny, USA (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Dutch Schultz, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Charles J. Searock, Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General E. G. “Buck” Shuler, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Alexander M. “Rusty” Sloan, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Edward M. Straw, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General David J. Teal, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Billy M. Thomas, USA, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Donald C. “Deese” Thompson, USCG, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Alan S. Thompson, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Herman O. “Tommy” Thomson, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Howard B. Thorsen, USCG, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General William Thurman, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Robert Allen “R.A.” Tiebout, USMC, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral John B. Totushek, USNR, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General George J. Trautman, USMC, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Garry R. Trexler, USAF, (Ret.)
    Vice Admiral Jerry O. Tuttle, USN, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Claudius “Bud” Watts, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General William “Bill” Welser, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Thad A. Wolfe, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General C. Norman Wood, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Michael W. Wooley, USAF, (Ret.)
    Lieutenant General Richard “Rick” Zilmer, USMC, (Ret.)
    Major General Chris Adams, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Henry Amos, USN (Ret.)
    Major General Nora Alice Astafan, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Almon Bowen Ballard, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General James F. Barnette, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert W. Barrow, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John R. Batlzer, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Jon W. Bayless, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General John E. Bianchi, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General David F. Bice, USMC, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Linda J. Bird, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James H. Black, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Peter A. Bondi, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General John L. Borling, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Tom Braaten, USMC, (Ret.)
    Major General Patrick H. Brady, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert J. Brandt, USA, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Jerry C. Breast, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Bruce B. Bremner, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Thomas F. Brown III, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General David P. Burford, USA, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John F. Calvert, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Jay A. Campbell, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Henry Canterbury, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James J. Carey, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Nevin Carr, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Stephen K. Chadwick, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral W. Lewis Chatham, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Jeffrey G. Cliver, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Casey Coane, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Isaiah C. Cole, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Stephen Condon, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Richard C. Cosgrave, USANG, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Robert Cowley, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General J.T. Coyne, USMC, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Robert C. Crates, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Tommy F. Crawford, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Gerald A. Daniel, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James P. Davidson, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Kevin F. Delaney, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General James D. Delk, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert E. Dempsey, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Jay Ronald Denney, USNR, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert S. Dickman, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James C. Doebler, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Douglas O. Dollar, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Hunt Downer, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Thomas A. Dyches, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Jay T. Edwards, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General John R. Farrington, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Francis L. Filipiak, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James H. Flatley III, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Charles Fletcher, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Bobby O. Floyd, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Veronica Froman, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Vance H. Fry, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral R. Byron Fuller, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral George M. Furlong, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Frank Gallo, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Ben F. Gaumer, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Harry E. Gerhard Jr., USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Daniel J. Gibson, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Andrew A. Giordano, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Richard N. Goddard, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Fred Golove, USCGR, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Harold Eric Grant, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Jeff Grime, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert Kent Guest, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Tim Haake, USAR, (Ret.)
    Major General Otto K. Habedank, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Thomas F. Hall, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Donald P. Harvey, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Leonard W. Hegland, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John Hekman, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General John A. Hemphill, USA, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Larry Hereth, USCG, (Ret.)
    Major General Wilfred Hessert, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Don Hickman, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Geoffrey Higginbotham, USMC, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Grant Hollett, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Jerry D. Holmes, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Weldon F. Honeycutt, USA, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Steve Israel, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General James T. Jackson, USA, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John S. Jenkins, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Tim Jenkins, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Ron Jesberg, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Pierce J. Johnson, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Steven B. Kantrowitz, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John T. Kavanaugh, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General George W. Keefe, ANG, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Stephen T. Keith, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Dennis M. Kenneally, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Michael Kerby, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral David Kunkel, USCG, (Ret.)
    Major General Geoffrey C. Lambert, USA, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Arthur Langston, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Thomas G. Lilly, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General James E. Livingston, USMC, (Ret.)
    Major General Al Logan, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General John D. Logeman Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Noah H. Long Jr, USNR, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Don Loren, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Andy Love, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Thomas C. Lynch, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Steven Wells Maas, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert M. Marquette, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Larry Marsh, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Clark W. Martin, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General William M. Matz, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Gerard Mauer, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General James C. McCombs, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral William J. McDaniel, MD, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral E.S. McGinley II, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Henry C. McKinney, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert Messerli, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Douglas S. Metcalf, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James E. Miller, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John W. Miller, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Patrick David Moneymaker, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Mario Montero, USA, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Douglas M. Moore, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Walter Bruce Moore, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General William Moore, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Burton R. Moore, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James A. Morgart, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Stanton R. Musser, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John T. Natter, USN, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Michael Neil, USMCR, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Edward Nelson, Jr., USCG, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert A. Nester, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General George W. Norwood, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Robert C. Olsen, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James D. Olson, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Raymund E. O’Mara, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Robert S. Owens, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John F. Paddock, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Robert W. Paret, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Robert O. Passmore, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Earl G. Peck, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Richard E. Perraut Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Gerald F. Perryman, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral W.W. Pickavance, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral John J. Prendergast, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Fenton F. Priest, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General David C. Ralston, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Bentley B. Rayburn, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Harold Rich, USN , (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Roland Rieve, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Tommy F. Rinard, USN , (Ret.)
    Major General Richard H. Roellig, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Michael S. Roesner, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Davis Rohr, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral William J. Ryan, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Loran C. Schnaidt, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Carl Schneider, USAF , (Ret.)
    Major General John P. Schoeppner, Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Edison E. Scholes, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Robert H. Shumaker, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral William S. Schwob, USCG, (Ret.)
    Major General David J. Scott, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Hugh P. Scott, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Richard Secord, USAF, (Ret.) (where have we heard that name before? The first “October Surprise” that targeted President Jimmy Carter).
    Rear Admiral William H. Shawcross, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Joseph K. Simeone, USAF and ANG , (Ret.)
    Major General Darwin Simpson, ANG , (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Greg Slavonic, USN , (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral David Oliver “D.O.” Smart, USNR, (Ret.)
    Major General David R. Smith, USAF (Ret.)
    Major General Richard D. Smith, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Donald Bruce Smith, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Paul O. Soderberg, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Stan Spears, ANG, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Robert H. “Bob” Spiro, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General Henry B. Stelling, Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Daniel H. Stone, USN, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Joseph Stringham, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Ansel M. Stroud, Jr., USA, (Ret.)
    Major General William A. Studer, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Hamlin Tallent, USN, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Hugh Banks Tant III, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Larry S. Taylor, USMC, (Ret.)
    Major General J.B. Taylor, USA, (Ret.)
    Major General Thomas R. Tempel, USA , (Ret.)
    Major General Richard L. Testa, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Jere Thompson, USN (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Byron E. Tobin, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Roger W. Triftshauser, USNR, (Ret.)
    Major General Larry Twitchell, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Russell L. Violett, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General John G. Waggener, USA, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Edward K. Walker, Jr., USN, (Ret.)
    Major General David E.B. “DEB” Ward, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Charles J. Wax, USAF, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Donald Weatherson, USN, (Ret.)
    Major General John Welde, USAF, (Ret.)
    Major General Gary Whipple, USA , (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral James B. Whittaker, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Charles Williams, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral H. Denny Wisely, USN, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral Theodore J. Wojnar, USCG, (Ret.)
    Rear Admiral George R. Worthington, USN, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Arthur Abercrombie, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General John R. Allen, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Loring R. Astorino, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Richard Averitt, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Garry S. Bahling, USANG, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Donald E. Barnhart, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Charles L. Bishop, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Clayton Bridges, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Jeremiah J. Brophy, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General R. Thomas Browning, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General David A. Brubaker, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Chalmers R. Carr, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Fred F. Castle, USAFR, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Robert V. Clements, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Christopher T Cline, USAR, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General George Peyton Cole, Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Richard A. Coleman, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Mike Cushman, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Peter Dawkins, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Sam. G. DeGeneres, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General George Demers, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Howard G. DeWolf, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Arthur F. Diehl, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General David Bob Edmonds, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Anthony Farrington, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Norm Gaddis, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General E.J. Giering III, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Robert H. Harkins, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Thomas W. Honeywill, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Stanley V. Hood, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General James J. Hourin, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Jack C. Ihle, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Thomas G. Jeter, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General William Herbert Johnson, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Kenneth F. Keller, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Wayne W. Lambert, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Jerry L. Laws, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Thomas J. Lennon, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General John M. Lotz, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Robert S. Mangum, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Frank Martin, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Joe Mensching, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Richard L. Meyer, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Lawrence A. Mitchell, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Michael P. Mulqueen, USMC, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Ben Nelson, Jr., USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Jack W. Nicholson, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Maria C. Owens, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Dave Papak, USMC, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Gary A. Pappas, USANG, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General John G. Pappas, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Robert V. Paschon, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Allen K. Rachel, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Jon Reynolds, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Edward F. Rodriguez, Jr., USAFR, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Harold W. Rudolph, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Roger Scearce, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Dennis Schulstad, USAFR, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General John Serur, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Joseph L. Shaefer, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Graham Shirley, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Raymond Shulstad, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Stan Smith, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Ralph S. Smith, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Donald Smith, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General David M. Snyder, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Michael Joseph Tashjian, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Richard Louis Ursone, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Earl Van Inwegen, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Robert V. Woods, USAF (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Terrence P. Woods, USAF, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Mitchell Zais, USA, (Ret.)
    Brigadier General Allan Ralph Zenowitz, USA, (Ret.)

  10. idealist707 1, December 9, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    When may martial law be declared, by whom, with what limits on the Constitution, and with what extra-legal powers?

    Is there where we are going now. Or are we there now?
    It seems that we are there but the people aren’t yet:

    A new report by the U.S. Army War College talks about the possibility of Pentagon resources and troops being used should the economic crisis lead to civil unrest, such as protests against businesses and government or runs on beleaguered banks.

    “Widespread civil violence inside the United States would force the defense establishment to reorient priorities in extremis to defend basic domestic order and human security,” said the War College report.

    The study says economic collapse, terrorism and loss of legal order are among possible domestic shocks that might require military action within the U.S.

    (The Homeland: Big Brother Plutonomy). So, martial law is not needed yet.

    The sheep dogs are doing the gig for the moment, but massive peaceful work stoppages would do what the Egyptians just did to their wannabe dictator.

    But they have had their counter insurgency ready for a long time.

  11. ACLU: Feinstein’s ‘indefinite detention’ ban may expand military role on U.S. soil
    By Stephen C. Webster
    Tuesday, December 4, 2012

    An amendment to the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that bans the indefinite detention of American citizens and lawful permanent residents appears to be an improvement over last year’s bill, but according to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) it could also do some harm.

    That’s because in addressing a fundamental concern civil liberties groups had with the 2011 NDAA, the language of Sen. Dianne Feinstein’s (D-CA) amendment — which passed Thursday by a vote of 67 to 29 — fails to also cover non-citizens and other immigrants. In doing so, ACLU senior legislative counsel Chris Anders told Raw Story that the amendment could actually establish a bad precedent because it does not explicitly ban the military from operating on U.S. soil.

    “The military can’t legally operate within the United States that way,” Anders said. “The Feinstein amendment may imply that the military has the right to act within the United States. There’s been a longstanding principle that the Constitution applies to all persons in the United States. We don’t divide up who gets rights by citizenship status. Nobody gets thrown under the bus in terms of due process in the United States.”

    The real problem, Anders explained, is that “nobody really knows” what this bill will do and how it will be interpreted, which is why both advocates and opponents of indefinite detention, like Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and Rand Paul (R-KY), voted for it. The confusion arises in a loophole Feinstein wrote into the amendment giving the military the right to detain Americans in the event that Congress authorizes such action.

    Feinstein aides did not respond to a request for comment.

    Anders said that proponents of indefinite detention “reached the conclusion that they could read the Feinstein amendment as not making any meaningful change” thanks to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) Congress passed one week after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. That measure gave then-President George W. Bush (R) virtually unlimited warmaking powers inside and outside of the United States by explicitly approving “all necessary and appropriate force” against “nations, organizations, or persons” the president claims to be involved in terrorist plots.

    Because that authorization is still in effect, advocates can say Congress has explicitly authorized indefinite detention of American citizens, among others. Outside of a Supreme Court challenge, only a formal end to Bush’s terror war would seal the dam for good.

  12. When the Senate first looked at the NDAA, Sen Feinstein did an amendment to it that would have kept it from applying to American citizens, but her amendment did not pass. Knowing that, I would think (and hope) that it is more likely that she was at least trying to do the right thing.

    Of course when the NDAA was drafted, you had all these people all over the place saying, ”You people are so stupid and paranoid and such conspiracy theorists. This does NOT pertain the US citizens.” Oh my GOSH all the places I saw that! (If it didn’t I don’t know why Sen Feinstein did an amendment to change that back then–wouldn’t make sense would it!)

    Can’t you remember how back when we were in school it was drilled into us that people always had a right to due process; a trial by their peers. And that everyone had a right to an opinion and to speak that opinion. That was before all the politically correct BS came along. Once that came along they just started doing away with everything.

    No rights to trials anymore if they don’t want to give you one. No rights not to have your property searched and seized with no warning, no warrant–they can kill you, your family, your pets, and it’s all okay. EVEN IF THEY HAVE THE WRONG HOUSE! No rights to assume that if your police go out of control they will be even reprimanded, let alone fired or imprisoned. No rights to be free of cameras filming everything you do. No rights not to have frickin’ drones flying around and even IN your house! No rights to be told which of your foods are grown by insane, greedy GMO people who are trying to kidnap the world’s food supply! No right not to have untested GME mosquitos released into your country to wreak who knows what havoc! No rights treat your family’s illnesses the way you choose. No rights to refuse to have mercury vaccines injected into your children and babies. No rights to drink water without poisonous fluoride in it. No rights to have good access to herbs and people who can tell you how to use them so you wouldn’t have to poison yourselves with Big Pharma’s more lucrative answers that kill people. No rights to be left alone to live and let live.

    The days of people in this country being free and having rights has long disappeared and been replaced by the tramping of jackboots.

  13. Why is it that the one area of bipartisanship in Congress is erosion of civil liberties? It seems like those jokers can’t get anything else done but the one area I favor gridlock.

  14. The amendment is one of those cosmetic things that is tacked onto something to make it sound OK for the moment, so that it slides past all the censors, and then later, nothing can ever be changed and the way it is explained makes everybody realize they just poured a cup of tea for the devil.

  15. rafflaw 1, December 9, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    that is one scary report Dredd.

    Here is a direct link to it: Ariz. Police Say They Are Prepared As War College Warns Military Must Prep For Unrest.

    RE: “That’s the protection provided to everyone in the United States by the Posse Comitatus Act.”

    The reality behind the scenes now, like the Mike S post today about military evangelism, is that they all know that Posse Comitatus is a myth, but unfortunately have not made that well known to the public.

    The link I provide has an article that they hid, but like many I use, was pulled up from the “Wayback Machine.”

  16. Fee,
    Those government “trojans” have probably already been distributed to my computer.
    Unless I missed it, I don’t think anyone has addressed my question concerning how the Supreme Court would handle this issue if it makes it up to them? I don’t think even Scalia can consider the right to due process anything but original.

  17. raff, sorry about the length. I should have just counted and named them as retired admirals and generals but I can’t count that high : )

    I don’t know if non-members can go to the link. Maybe I should try it without logging in.

  18. Diane Feinstein was on television the other night and being interviewed. She seems real lame brain or perhaps old with dementia. We can not let such a Raygun type thing be excused. She needs to retire to some think tank where they dont have to think but get lots of money for fronting their puss in public in the name of the tank’s sponsors.

    Any citizen of the U.S. who is charged with any offense by the United States is entitled to a due process trial. Those so called tribunials are a farce. Court martials for our military and trials in United States District Courts in the United States, not in bumfuk Cuba for any citizen for any funky offense they dream up with their dream acts.

    Feinstein: pull out now like your father should have at the night of your conception. You are either a lame brain or an overt nazi. It does not take Curley from the Three Stooges to smell a Notsie.

  19. What do you think? It is only your right to due process and to keep the military out of civilian matter that is at stake here! If the appellate court decision is also appealed to the Supreme Court, how do you think the Roberts Court will handle this matter?

    The old Posse Comitatus which JAG lawyers consider to be a myth now, was a statute of congress that has been watered down over two decades according to the JAG officer I quoted in my comment just up-thread.

    Thus, the only game left is a constitutional challenge.

    This particular S. Ct. does not favor facial challenges, but rather favors as applied challenges.

    I hope that does not mean some American Journalist or academic has to become indefinitely imprisoned by the military in a fact scenario this statute covers before the S.Ct. gets interested.

    But just a word to the wise, a facial challenge is a much more difficult case before the Roberts Court, and one outcome could be that the S.Ct. says “wait for an as applied case.”

  20. I looked her biography up on wikipedia. She was born in 1933 for Gods sake. Not Dogs’ sake. Jeso that is 79 years old or so. Multiply by seven to get dog years. Cant read her own bill she files in Congress. Send her great great grandkids up to Congress to yell in her ear about the Constitution.

  21. bettykath,
    No problem with the length!
    I can’t imagine Scalia arguing for a case that takes away due process, but then again, it is Scalia.

  22. JoeBob, “Any citizen of the U.S. who is charged with any offense by the United States is entitled to a due process trial.”

    Good comments but the key here is “charged with any offense”. NDAA does not require that one be charged with an offense to suffer indefinite detention.

  23. to continue, Bradley Manning spent, what, 3 years in tortuous conditions at the Marine facility before before being moved to the Army facility and without any charges being made.Susan Lindauer spent years in prison without charges. She’s probably still be there if she had taken the meds they tried to give her and if she didn’t have a lawyer relative to take on her case. I’m sure there are other cases but we just don’t hear of them.

  24. http://www.photographyisnotacrime.com/2012/12/06/homeland-security-and-fbi-release-document-once-again-labeling-photographers-as-potential-terrorists/

    Why does Napolitano continue with these terrible policies? sheesh. People are tired of their rights being breached and the out of control security state.

    If anyone had told me Janet would suck at HS, I would not have believed them, but here she is, sucking and harassing people for not good reasons.

    Feinstein is an old war monger from way back. Her husband is a MIC big wig of some sort. It is a massive conflict of interest. But at least she tried, wow, the right to not be indefinitely detained, we should be bowing and scraping in thanks,,,,,,,

  25. Raff, I don’t think the USSC will be the slightest help whatsoever! They ruled that Obamacare is constitutional. If they ruled that constitutional, they will rule ANYTHING constitutional. They are not on the side of the Constitution they are there to protect. They are a total sellout!

    And ya’ll are exactly right. No charge is necessary with the NDAA. No rights, no charge, no trial, no attorney, no phone call, and no one ever has to hear from you again, end of story.

    From where I sit, this bit of legislation is not just unconstitutional, it is totally treasonous!

  26. Brass,
    It was suggested above that the private run prisons would profit from the unlimited detention of civilians. However, the military would be responsible for the detentions.

  27. dobbie606,

    Interesting video. For the record though, I thought back in the 80’s when the privatization trend started that it was a bad idea. We are seeing today the blooming fruition of just how bad an idea it was and is. If I’ve been surprised by anything in the way privatized prisons have unfolded, it is the rapidity and the blatant corporate use of what you fairly describe as slave labor. Anytime you attach a profit motive to oppression, you are begging for oppression to happen. It’s a field day for sociopaths.

  28. Onlooker,

    And Libertarians are people who believe they can take care of themselves when this richest and most powerful begin to enslave them.

  29. raff, does the military contract stuff out? I mean we used to have state run prisons, now many are privately run. We used to have military people carrying weapons and doing the killing, now we contract mercenaries and CIA operated drones. I’m sure there are other examples of former government operations being privatized. Ok, the CIA isn’t a private corporation but it isn’t the military either, at least not yet. I can’t imagine the corporations not taking advantage of such a potentially lucrative business. Taxpayers paying for indefinite detentions and slave labor. What an opportunity!

  30. Apropos of the general discussion, I accidentally clicked on The Onion a few minutes ago and read three stories before it dawned on me I was reading The Onion. The news has become so improbable that it is becoming harder to distinguish satire from the real thing. Thank you Joe Overton. We are living out the truth of your “window.”

  31. Gene, Interesting how Blackwater keeps changing its name. I wonder what mischief they are trying to escape from? Maybe it’s just their bad name but we keep finding out, but Academii is a new to me.

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