Vice President Joe Biden latest controversial statement has produced some interesting criticism. Biden was asked recently if the ban on certain guns would put people at risk. He responded by encouraging people to buy shotguns and fire them out the window. It was pretty dim-witted advice since that would be illegal, but is it sexist as well as stupid?
A women at a Parents Magazine town hall as Biden “Do you believe that banning certain weapons and high capacity magazines will mean that law-abiding citizens will then become more of a target to criminals as we will have no way to sufficiently protect ourselves?”
Biden immediately did what he does best: put his foot in his mouth and then shoot himself in the foot. Biden chuckled and responded: “As I told my wife — we live in an area that’s wooded and somewhat secluded — I said, ‘Jill, if there’s ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony, put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house,’” Biden said. “I promise you whoseever [sic] coming in is not gonna — you don’t need an AR-15. It’s harder to aim, it’s harder to use, and in fact you don’t need 30 rounds to protect yourself. Buy a shotgun.”
Kate Ernest later went on Fox and said that Biden sounded sexist: “I think it was poor advice and it comes off a little sexist. Like, ‘let me tell you what you need’ versus, you know, ‘arm yourself or protect yourself in a way that you feel necessary.” Really. You ask Biden for advice on guns. He gives you advice on guns and then you say it was sexist to “tell you what you need.”
No it was not sexist, Ms. Ernest, just stupid.
As a torts professor and criminal defense attorney, I can assure you that firing a shotgun out your window or porch is both illegal and negligent. State laws and regulations strongly reinforce the need to have a clear target or view in shooting a weapon and do not countenance shooting blindly out of window, even on private property or in rural areas. Yes, you may to scare off a prowler as well as gun down your neighbor. If his wife were to follow Biden’s sage advice, she would be looking at possible criminal charges for aggravated menacing, reckless endangerment, and other crimes in Delaware and other states. She would also be subject to tort liability for negligence, assault, and possible battery or wrongful death. It is not generally considered reasonable mistaken self-defense to fire a weapon out a window to scare off the neighbors. Indeed, not long ago, a prosecutor was arrested for such a warning shot.
Now, the Ms. Biden’s possible defense is strengthened by the fact that he described his home as being “wooded and somewhat secluded.” Moreover a shotgun pellet has a shorter trajectory than a bullet. However, we have people hit every year by folks who think they can harmless fire guns in rural areas or in the air. This includes police officers, mail carriers, and others who lawfully come on to property as well as common trespassers in rural areas who cut across land like the recent tragic case in Oregon.
Source: ABA Journal and TPM
Bob Kauten,
Well, since anyone who disagrees with you is a screwball, a loonie, and/or immature, I guess there’s not much likelihood of really constructive conversation here.
But for your information, I do have a lightning rod on my house — I highly recommend that you get one if you don’t have one. I also avoid the outdoors, especially flat open spaces and spaces immediately under tall trees during thunderstorms. No need for aluminum suits if you take other proper precautions.
I didn’t get the home invasion information from the NRA — I don’t even know if the NRA compiles that information. I did a web search for home invasions in the Washington DC metro area, and got five recent ones. The links are to stories on the local NBC, ABC, and CBS broadcast affiliates. They took place in Prince Georges County and Montgomery County, Maryland; the District of Columbia; and Stafford County and Loudoun County, Virginia. I left out the one (perhaps I shouldn’t have) where a homeowner in Fairfax County, Virginia shot and killed a home invader. It took me all of three minutes.
The odds are that I will not have to deal with a home invasion — just like the odds were that the people in the stories in the links would not have to deal with home invasion. If your choose not to have firearms in your home, because you think the odds are against you ever needing them, that’s your choice and I’m not going to criticize it. But I will criticize your apparent belief that you should make the choice for everyone else.
It seems that you believe that ownership of a firearm somehow turns regular people into crazy people. My experience is to the contrary. I know a lot of very stable people who own and carry firearms. Virginia is a shall-issue concealed carry state, and the rate of misuse of firearms by CCW holders is miniscule.
Bron,
Not to worry. Forty years have passed. As I said, I grew up. I don’t keep firearms, any more than I’d store grenades in my house (well, we do have to be prepared for any eventuality, as Porkchop might say). Good, if you keep your firearms disassembled, you’re probably a responsible person.
Porkchop,
I need data, not the same 5 home invasions that the NRA uses over and over. Is it more likely that armed invaders will attack your house, or that you’ll be struck by lightning? I guess I should wear a suit of aluminum armor (tin-foil hat included), so that the lightning will convey the current into the ground?
With the exception of those compiled by screwball survivalist magazines, the list of things that you should keep in case of a disaster does not include firearms. Eventual first-responders have enough to do, without worrying about frightened loonies with popguns.
In a disaster (I live in quake central), you need shelter, food, batteries, propane, and water. Got ’em.
I’m not dismissive of disaster-readiness. I’m also not dismissive of folks who fantasize that they’re going to need to shoot invaders. Those fantasizing folks are a danger to everyone.
Bob Kauten:
“Bringing up even more fantasies “What if anarchy prevails, and everyone needs to defend themselves?” doesn’t help your cause. What if we’re invaded by enormous Stay-puft Marshmallow Men? Ridiculous? Exactly!”
Nice strawmen, by the way.
But you have given me an idea. When you go to the shooting range, they sell targets with various pictures of bad guys on them. I normally just use the traditional bulls-eye target, but I think that there is a business opportunity here, so I am going to come out with a line of Marshmallow Man targets for those who want to prepare — white for the traditionalist ghost-busters and pink for the ladies.
Thanks. I’m going to be rich!
bOB Kauten:
So the truth comes out.
I dont know about Porkchop and Jason and OS, but I have never had a fantasy about killing bad guys after the age of about 12. And that was mostly when we played cops and robbers or yankees and commies in the woods nearby.
And I have never even come close to blowing a guys brains out and I feel pretty confident that OS, Porkchop and Jason havent either.
Never owned an illegal firearm either and never lots of them.
Oh and the firearms I do have are never just lying about, they are taken apart and put away. Where I live is very safe, about the only thing around here is a fox or maybe a coyote, I think a neighbor said they saw a bear once.
From what you have written, I would say it is a good thing you dont have any firearms lying around. But on the positive side Dirty Harry did say a man has got to know his limitations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG2cux_6Rcw
So it isnt hopeless for you, just keep trying.
Bob Kauten,
“Not true. Look it up. I did. Now that the NRA can no longer prevent the CDC from collecting firearm-accident statistics, we’ll get better data.”
I don’t think the CDC collects data on defensive use of firearms when there are no shots fired, so the data set will be incomplete and skewed.
Bob Kauten,
I responded to your post nearly two hours ago, but my comment is “awaiting moderation”. Apparently, there are too many hyperlinks in the post for it to go through .
I provided hyperlinks to news stories concering five recent home invasions in the Washington, DC metropolitan area, including one in which a teenaged girl was murdered in her bedroom. You’ll just have to wait, I guess.
The gist of my answer, though, is no, it hasn’t happened to me, but it has happened close to me, and that waiting for something to happen to you before you start to prepare for it is damn foolish.
___________________________
Sure, the odds are against a home invasion happening to me; it’s not an event that I want to happen. I’m not sitting around licking my chops waiting for someone to bust down my door so that I can shoot them — which seems to be YOUR fantasy about gun owners.
“It can’t happen to me” is one of the most common human fantasies, but if it does happen, there’s little or nothing that can be done after the fact. The odds are against being hit directly by hurricanes, tornadoes, derechos, and earthquakes, too, but they happen, and a wise person tries to be ready. I was pretty glad that I had lots of water and dehydrated food when we lost power for a week last summer. We had an earthquake not long ago, too, you may have heard.
You can be dismissive of thinking ahead if you want to. Play the odds as you wish. Who is going to take care of you, if you don’t take care of yourself? As we found out here in the DC area on 9/11, first responders can be overwhelmed, so you can’t count on them being there immediately under any circumstances, and especially when you need them quickly.
SwM,
I’m almost literally on the shores of Lake Erie so, unarmed as I am, when the Canadians invade, I’m toast. However, I may have a chance to shoot you an email giving you some time to man your cannon.
I am ever vigilant for marauding Lake Erie Krakens since black bears no longer inhabit this territory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Colossal_octopus_by_Pierre_Denys_de_Montfort.jpg
SwM,
“Blouise, the “gun culture” that you often refer to did not have a good night at the ballot box last night.” … see, there is a god!
I’m going to go out and buy my own “Sweetness” so we can sit and watch Colbert’s Trigger-Happy together. Good times!
OK, Porkchop,
You didn’t answer my question. Has your home ever been invaded by armed men?
Bringing up even more fantasies “What if anarchy prevails, and everyone needs to defend themselves?” doesn’t help your cause. What if we’re invaded by enormous Stay-puft Marshmallow Men? Ridiculous? Exactly!
“So, if the question is, “Is it much more likely that your gun will be used to kill a family member than that it will be used to defend yourself or a family member?”, the answer is “No”.”
Not true. Look it up. I did. Now that the NRA can no longer prevent the CDC from collecting firearm-accident statistics, we’ll get better data.
OS,
“Bet Mr. Kauten has never gone outside to find a 400 pound black bear in his back yard. Or been treed by a feral hog.”
Pay up. “Backyard” is subject to definition. Just last year, I was car camping, and a black bear came by. I walked out to greet him, and stood between him and our camp to block his entrance. I spoke firmly to him, at about 100 feet, and he just left. I didn’t weigh him. I didn’t have a firearm, and I wasn’t scared. Most animals just don’t want to play with you.
I’m cool with anyone who’s frequently attacked by feral hogs (all 5 of you in the U.S.A.) to carry a shotgun for protection. By the way, where the hell are you living, and why are you living there, if feral hogs are constantly chasing you?
When I was young and stupid, I owned lots of firearms, legal and illegal. I carried ’em. I fantasized about how exciting life was, how I had to be always ready to kill bad guys, be the hero. I know the adolescent fantasy syndrome.
The only thing I learned is how dangerous it is to have firearms lying about.
I almost blew out someone’s brains. That would’ve change my life, forever. It certainly would’ve changed his.
It’s adolescent fantasy. What happened? I GREW UP!
Feel free to emulate.
One thing for sure, there are more nuts in this fruit cake than there is dough….
“But we don’t propose banning or severely restricting mansions because they are usually not needed.”
Being an impractical egotistical venal jackass isn’t against the law. As a legal matter? Under any other SCOTUS I’d tell you banning simply isn’t going to happen, but restrictions? Many of your rights are subject to reasonable restrictions and this already includes your 2nd Amendment rights. Try to buy a missile, nuclear or chemical weapon and you can find out first hand that your right to bear arms isn’t absolute. The only place absolute rights exists is in the state of nature and that ceases to be once the social compact is entered. However, in the state of nature, you’d need all the firepower you could get because your only recourse for protection or redress of wrongs would be self-help. The cost for absolute rights is anarchy. Very few rights as a practical matter can be absolute under the rule of law.
“No, it is a response TO ego, to the arrogance that claims to know what is better for everyone despite everyone not being the same.”
Whatever you want to think, but the bottom line is need can be objectively quantified and desire cannot. If you think it’s arrogant? Let the Congresscritters responsible for sponsoring bans you are against it. It’s not their arrogance that bothers me so much as the blatant pandering and fear mongering. As I noted, long guns are used in a miniscule proportion of all gun crimes committed compared to hand guns. The movement to ban assault rifles is pure political posturing and pandering that if enacted would do absolutely nothing to curb gun crimes in real terms and would only create a black market which in turn creates more crime. Their desire to pander to fear so they’ll get voted for again is their ego – a want that has nothing to do with pragmatic need but everything to do with their egos as pols.
Gene H-
“A mansion serves the same function as less ostentatious home – keeps you generally protected from the elements and gives you a place to keep your stuff – but unless you and your significant other are knocking out a baby a year ten years you don’t need a 10 or 12 bedroom mansion.”
But we don’t propose banning or severely restricting mansions because they are usually not needed.
“Your hatred of hearing the need argument is a response of ego”
No, it is a response TO ego, to the arrogance that claims to know what is better for everyone despite everyone not being the same.
Mark T, Her name is Marissa Alexander and considering the stories surrounding ‘stand your ground’ in response to her trial it looks like ‘stand your ground’ in Florida doesn’t doesn’t work too well for women or people of color.
http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/30/where-was-stand-your-ground-for-marissa-alexander/
Porkchop,
Bet Mr. Kauten has never gone outside to find a 400 pound black bear in his back yard. Or been treed by a feral hog.
It is not just the two legged predators we have to be aware of around here. We have critters wandering around that are higher on the food chain than me. I only hunt with a camera now, but would no sooner go into the woods unarmed than I would forget my pants. I was out driving one evening and a cat crossed the road in front of me. I almost hit it, so it took a moment for it to soak in that the pretty kitty was about seven feet from nose to tail.
Bears, big cats, coyotes and other nearly extinct wildlife is making a comeback in these parts. Too many of them have discovered that if they come into town they can find food and warmth. I no longer throw the trash in the back of the pickup truck at night to take to the dump in the morning. If I do, I know I will find the plastic bags shredded and trash scattered all over the yard.
The single wild animal that scares me the most is a feral hog, especially if is a sow with a bunch of little pigs.
Too bad….. Bob they can’t legislate stupidity or a lot of folks would have to pay higher taxes or be out of a job….. The some would be able to post on blogs….
Bob Kauten:
Just curious, do you live in a place where natural disasters happen? Is it foolish, macho, testosterone-driven to be prepared for one? Not all people in the Midwest personally experience a tornado, but a substantial number are prepared for it if it happens.
Some of us, me included, live in areas where armed people do, in fact, come into people’s homes uninvited and with bad intentions — and not just the homes of drug dealers. Blaming the victim of a home invasion is no more logical, or morally acceptable, than blaming the victim of a rape (which, by the way, can be one of the crimes accompanying a home invasion). It hasn’t happened to me, but I hardy think it is a fantasy to think that it could happen.
It seems rather foolish to think that one shouldn’t prepare for an eventuality until it has already happened to you once, which seems to be your standard I also keep water, food, and other essentials on hand for when when we lose electrical power for extended periods, which happened last summer. I guess I am wasting my money unless I have previously been hungry and dehydrated due to a natural disaster.
“Is it much more likely that your gun will be used to kill a family member?
Hint: yes.”
Much more likely than what? Defensive uses of a firearms take place hundreds of thousands of times a year — most of the time it is not necessary to discharge the weapon, the threat of force is sufficient to resolve the situation. So, if the question is, “Is it much more likely that your gun will be used to kill a family member than that it will be used to defend yourself or a family member?”, the answer is “No”.
All of this prattle about macho fantasies and killing family members says more about your perception of yourself and the world than it does about firearms ownership.
SM,
Fine with me.
Bob Kauken, This blog certainly has more than its fair share of macho gun worshippers as you said.. Some bring up drones. Like that’s an excuse. Let’s have some legislation restricting guns and drones.
Wow, the testosterone is thick in here. Hard to breathe.
Just curious. How many of you macho gun worshippers have ever had your homes invaded by armed men?
Why would that happen? Are you selling something illegal, so that you are known to have huge sums of cash on hand?
Or is this all just fantasizing, like “The gummint’s comin’ fer mah guns”?
Is it much more likely that your gun will be used to kill a family member?
Hint: yes.
Well, OK, I guess that’s a cruel form of Darwinism.
Biden was right on the shotgun as weapon of choice. Wrong about firing it in some random direction. He said something correct, and should’ve stopped there.