We have previously discussed the continued prosecution of minors for engaging in sexual conduct under state laws. These laws have a sexist record of boys prosecuted for having sex with a minor where girls were treated as the victim, even when the sex was consensual and both were minors or close in age. There is a new case out of Indian River, Florida that is equally troubling. Kaitlyn Hunt, 18, is a senior in high school and is facing felony charges for engaging in a sexual relationship with another girl at her school. Despite an outcry against prosecuting Hunt for consensual sex, the prosecutor has refused to drop the charges of two counts of lewd and lascivious battery of a child 12 to 16 years of age. Assistant State Attorney Brian Workman has insisted that he will only agree to a plea deal where she would accept one felony conviction and a two-year sentence of home confinement. Such a plea would likely put Hunt on the sex offender registry for life.
The girls started dating when Kate turned 18 and the other girl was 14. When the other girl’s parents found out about the relationship, they called police. Police then tapped a telephone conversation in which Kate told the girl that she loved her.
Hunt’s mother believes the charges are the result of homophobia and intolerance for a lesbian relationship.
Hunt was previously selected as the “Student with Most School Spirit” and had a good record at Sebastian River High School. However, after the arrest, she was kicked off the school’s basketball team by her coach, who said that the school wanted to avoid “drama.” The school board then expelled her from the high school in her graduating year.
Consent is not a defense under the Florida law criminalizing sexual activity with a minor between the ages of 12 and 16. Bruce Colton, state attorney for Florida’s 19th circuit, has insisted that the case will go to trial unless Hunt pleads guilty. The second-degree felony charges can result in a 15 year sentence with registration as a sex offender. We have previously seen the disabling impact of such registration on young people convicted for statutory rape in consensual relations with other students.
As discussed earlier, some states like Ohio have struck down parts of their statutory rape laws.
The concern is that there are obviously many cases involving minors as young as 14 engaging in sexual relationships. Those cases are rarely prosecuted. Moreover, regardless of whether this is a homosexual or heterosexual relationship, it involved consent between two high school students. None of this condones what Hunt did. This was a 14 year old child and, regardless of Hunt’s feelings, it was clearly improper and presumptively harmful to have a sexual relationship with a 14 year old. The question is whether this could not have been handled with a restraining order preventing further contact as opposed to treating this as a criminal matter.
What do you think?
An awful lot of words written by people who are adamant they could care less about me. Let it go, it’s just not healthy. I’m concerned for your health and well being.
“An awful lot of words written by people who are adamant they could care less about me. Let it go, it’s just not healthy. I’m concerned for your health and well being.”
As JT mentioned in his 16 million post you wrote the most comments of the weekend, most of which were snide, dishonest attacks…….you poor little victim of your own making.
My Daughter Was Arrested, Expelled And Charged With A Felony For A Same-Sex Relationship She Had As A Minor
The nightmare began in February when the cops came to arrest my daughter, who had just turned 18, and took her away without telling us what was happening.
by Steven Hunt Jr.
May 20, 2013 at 9:58am | 593 comments
http://www.xojane.com/issues/kaitlyn-hunt
anonpo It shows your case’s weakness when you have to lie about the case. She was NOT a minor, nor was she arrested for such behavior when she was a minor. It seems the law enforcement folks care MORE about the law than you care about it or the truth. If she had been arrested for her actions as a minor they would have let the parents know the charges and had to allow them in during questioning. She is an adult legally, and the ONLY person responsible for her actions. So sorry but the law is clear, no matter how you wish to toss it aside.
It was not as though they were discreet, and very few people knew about it. In fact, the coach and I guess most of the school knew by that time. When I was young, I was very well aware of the law as to when I was a minor and what I could get away with. So it is a real stretch to think that it was a big surprise to the minor that her parents knew about the affair. In fact, I am sure that they had more than a few words with her on this subject. We don’t know if or what the parents said to Kate, but I am sure that they were not silent about it too. So the fact is that she decided to violate the law and spit in the face of the parents. Sorry, but you break the law and flout it, you are going to get burned.
I am reasonably sure that there are lots of similar cases that involve male students and underage girls who get nailed like this. I am sure too that if this were a boy, the posters would be on the other side demanding a big jail sentence and no forgiveness or leniency. it is only when it hits gays that the law becomes unfair. The straight guys can get to hell and prison.
http://www.alternet.org/anonymous-hackers-seek-justice-teen-charged-underage-same-sex-relationship?akid=10469.147321.1LTedh&rd=1&src=newsletter844278&t=7
Anonymous Hackers Seek Justice for Teen Charged With Underage Same-Sex Relationship
Excerpt:
“Greetings, Bigots. We are Operation Justice,” Anonymous hackers wrote in their public letter to the Indian River State Attorney’s Office, “The last operation our team conducted led to the case of Rehtaeh Parson’s being re-opened and to an independent investigation into the actions of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You may have read about us. Now we are in Florida and you should have expected us.”
Rehtaeh Parsons was the 17-year-old Canadian girl who killed herself after she was allegedly sexually assaulted in 2011, and bullied when photos of the attack were posted online. Police had concluded that there were no grounds to charge anyone in the case.
“While in the course of performing your duties we feel that you’ve lost perspective,” the hackers wrote, “Tsk, tsk.”
“The truth is, Kaitlyn Hunt is a bright young girl who was involved in a consensual, same-sex relationship while both she and her partner were minors. She has a big future ahead of her and there are people, thousands of people in fact, that have no intention of allowing you to ruin it with your rotten selective enforcement.”
Hunt has until Friday to accept a plea deal that would allow her to avoid registering as a sex offender, but State Attorney Bruce Colton said he would still recommend two years of house arrest followed by one year probation if she takes it. The Hunt family has said they will only accept the deal if charges are reduced to a misdemeanor. It is possible that, if found guilty, she may be able to avoid sex offender registry under a “Romeo and Juliet” law because the two girls were not more than four years apart in age.
Anonymous said it will give prosecutors “a few days” before launching a petition of 20,000 signatures for resignations of named officials, as well as protests.
Read what Kate’s Dad had to say about his daughter and the charges against her in his piece on XoJane.
http://pastebin.com/STRNnv39 (letter from Anonymous to Indian River State Attorney’s Office)
Her parents have said they do not trust the judge. When a defendant gets up in front of the court and enters a guilty plea, there is a standard warning. The Judge tells the defendant they are not bound in any way to go along with the plea deal and may impose a different sentence than that agreed to. The judge will then ask her whether she still wishes to enter the guilty plea.
I don’t trust some judges either. I worked on a case several years ago in another southern state, where the guy entered a plea that included not having to register as a sex offender. The judge ordered him to register and gave a harsher sentence than that agreed to.
i have no idea of what the parents said since I have not seen any such reports. They have to trust somebody, maybe their lawyer. The lawyer is the one who should know who the judge is and the proclvities of his sentencing. Again, this varies in state laws from what I know. I suppose they could seek another judge if he is too far out. A plea deal though encompasses the offense, so the judge cannot raise the charges on the guilty plea to some more draconian violation charge. Then after some time on probation, she could still seek a pardon or other relief if the judge violates the plea deal. This would be a really good grounds to apply for a pardon if in fact the judge goes of the rails on the sentence and increases the punishment.
The prosecutor is likely prosecuting this act as a felony because, according to Florida law, what she did was in fact felonious.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0800/Sections/0800.04.html
ARE,
I am not arguing on whether the relationship was appropriate. My concern is the affair being prosecuted as a major felony, when some counseling for the girls and family therapy would be more appropriate.
You mentioned older teens being sent to war. That’s true. Are you aware of Virgil Mounts, the 15-year-old medic who was killed on Omaha Beach when shrapnel cut him half in two? He was not the only fifteen year old kid to die on the beaches that day. Audie Murphy was seventeen when he joined the Army and was awarded the MoH shortly after his 19th birthday. My own ggg-grandfather was only a few days past his 16th birthday at the time he was at the Battle of Kings mountain. He was only a few days past his 17th birthday when he fought with Washington’s troops at Yorktown. Were these teens too young to consent/
You mentioned the problems that DUI caused you. That does not even come close to the problems you would have had if it had been a sex offense felony. Be careful of the fallacy of false equivalence.
I have a book in my library that discusses all the decision points in any legal matter. It can start off as simple as an officer deciding whether to pull somebody over, and then whether to give a warning or a ticket. Right on up to closing arguments in a case. Way too many miscarriages of justice have occurred because of oversimplifying the decision process.
OS I think that if you read the article, it stated what the plea deal was which avoids a life long tag as a sex offender. The law does offer a lessor penalty for this age difference and consent. So I don’t see the problem at all.
The FACT is that she did commit a felony, and it was brought to the attention by the parents of the minor, so this does not give law enforcement a lot of wiggle room. My problem with the DUI is the SAME since in Texas it was NOT a felony, but in Canada, it IS a felony which is why I had a problem. So according to Canada, I am a convicted felon, the same as this woman.
My guess the 15 y/o is harmed, one way or the other. Assuming that the relationship was consensual and the 15 y/o believed herself to be in love, she is now broken up from her girlfriend. There is the conflict now between the girl and her parents. And I would be shocked if most of her class mates knew exactly who she is. I doubt those kids are all supportive of her. Whether it goes to trial or not, there is tremendous cost to her.
And I agree that we haven’t heard from the parents of the 15 y/o, so we don’t know what their interventions, if any, were before they notified the police.
Regardless, I still believe that this prosecution (based on the facts available to us) is a waste of state resources.
OS:
“Kate’s mom says her daughter was 17 when the two girls started dating.”
If the summary statement from the interview with Kate, herself, is to be believed, the sexual relationship started after Kate turned 18, and if the summary statement from the interview with the younger girl is to be believed, the dating relationship also began after Kate turned 18.
So, there is clearly a factual dispute about when this dating relationship began, so it may or may not be a case of criminalizing a preexisting relationship when Kate turned 18.
I have to agree that the 18 year old did violate Florida law as a matter of fact in this case. If the law is unjust then the girl should go to trial and plead with the jury. Perhaps the jury will practice some good old nullification. It only takes one juror to cause a mistrial.
randy,
You keep using the term “adult woman.” That word does not mean what you seem to think it means. In some cultures, both young women would be legal adults, because both have reached the age where they can reproduce. Age of majority and consent varies from state to state. The common understanding, medically and psychologically, of adult is when the person has reached full maturity. That is in the 20s. Here are a few more details.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult
I know that adult varies from culture to culture, but we are NOT dealing with other cultures or psychology. We ARE dealing with the law. The police and prosecutors are confronted with parents who complain that a crime is being committed against their minor daughter. Just what do you expect the law enforcement people to do? Think that they shoud ignore their sworn duty to enforce the laws? Should they say as many say here, that since it is a lesbian affair and consensual that it is OK to break the law? That is beyond bizarre. I don’t think we should have one standard for gays and another for straights.
The fact is that this is a high school senior going out with a junior high girl in 8 or 9th grade. Even in my recollections such a thing when I was their age, that was considered way out of bounds. Senior/sophmore relations while not as common were still extent and was thought of as being a bit weird. This is a clear cut case of a violation of the law. How it should be prosecuted is up to the courts and prosecutors and from what I have seen of the law and plea offering is rather reasonable if she takes it. Law enforcement does not have the option to blow off the parents and tell them to mind their own business since they ARE minding their business and their daughter and THEIR rights.
If you have some other course of action for law enforcement that does not violate the law, let us hear it. Just what rights and controls do the parents have? I have yet to see any mention of the parents rights in any post. What are they in your opinion?
“Even in my recollections such a thing when I was their age, that was considered way out of bounds.”
Arthur,
I’m approaching 70 and it was quite common when I went to High School. In fact one of my friends, who was a Freshman at college dated a fourteen year old who he later married. Her parents were quite aware of who their daughter was dating.
Oops, meant to write that age of consent in Texas is 17. 16 is just below the age of consent in Texas. Wish we could edit!
@ randyjet, “The fact is that as long as you keep the age of majority at 18, then ALL the laws apply to them.”
This is certainly not true as a factual matter. There are many laws that treat 18 year olds differently from older adults, the drinking laws being the most prominent that come to mind. That’s not to say that Florida should treat an 18 y/o differently than a 21 or 41 y/o when it comes to having sex with minors, but there’s no ironclad legal principle that it cannot do so. For example, here in Texas, the age of consent is 16. However, Texas has a Romeo and Juliet affirmative defense if the person is within 3 years of the minor. Thus, sex between a 16 and 20 y/o = illegal; sex between a 16 and 18 y/o = not illegal. If Florida had the same laws as Texas, I don’t think it would’ve helped Kate as I gather she is more than 3 years older than the minor. But, it does go to show that sometimes 18 y/o are treated differently than older adults.
RcCarol, The articles refuse to say whether or not the parents of the girl told the adult woman to NOT see her or have contact with her. That they did not mention this is significant since it strains credulity to think that the parents would have said NOTHING at all to either their daughter or the woman. As I pointed out in my previous post, I do not think the parents would have a legal case if they had invited the woman over to their house for a happy 18th birthday party, and then had her arrested. This was obviously NOT the case. So we are left to use our common sense.
So the woman spit in the face of the parents, and knowingly broke the law. Just what should happen? Some have said get a restraining order, but I don’t think you can legally get a restraining order to prevent criminal activity. Maybe some of our lawyers can enlighten us on this subject.
I fail to see how the young girl will be injured at all. Since she is a minor, her name cannot be used, her testimony and ID will be shielded in court, so there is little cost to her.
For me there is a significant piece of information missing in evaluating the actions of the prosecutor–does he consistently file on cases involving this age difference or not. In my experience, most prosecutors don’t when it involves a schoolmate dating scenario–but some take a hard-line approach and do. I don’t see how the reporting parents’ views would be relevant in a trial as they don’t go to any material fact. They would only become relevant if their credibility were at issue. It seems likely that the violation can be proven without their testimony.
“This is Viagra for some of the folks here who love the “tax man.” They will next want the first male child of the wealthy.”
Nick Spinelli attack 1 on the other thread he refers to. At this point no one had addressed him in any comment.
“They certainly don’t want anecdotes offered as evidence either, nick.
And you can take your personal aside and stuff it, you snide prick.”
Gene’s response to Nick’s attack.
““I think I’m pretty unique”
Yes it is quite obvious that you think so. You give yourself far more credit than you deserve based on written performance.”
My response to Nick.
“Bron, You’ve just been spoken to by the judge, jury and executioner. You should genuflect. “Winning” here is vital for people who lose everywhere else. And it’s easy when you unilaterally proclaim victory. It’s debating and judging all rolled into one. Not like the real world, where you have to produce and your work is judged by clients, customers, etc.”
Nick, insult and attack number two.
nick,
““‘Winning’ here is vital for people who lose everywhere else.”
That sure explains why you’re so desperate to win here.
Just because you understand argumentation, logic and evidence even less than Bron (and by a long shot) is no reason to be jealous.
He at least tries. Which is far more than you can say.
Now please, regale us with more of your unsubstantiated anecdotes as evidence and false claims about people whom you know nothing about.
People don’t like Bron’s philosophical basis because they’re based in the fantasies of a sociopath, but they do like Bron as a person. From what I’ve seen here, no one particularly likes you. They tolerate you. I bet IRL is no different. Yet you never pause to question why that is, only sniping and being snide to others because it must be their fault they don’t like such a “fascinating” person such as yourself and take every one of your unsubstantiated dribbles as gospel fact.
It’s all only moderately interesting and completely transparent.
People don’t win or lose here, nick. That’s your misconception.
Arguments and evidence win or lose here.
That you never have any of your own is your undoing.
Carry on.”
Gene’s response to Nick.
“I’m sure for some people who lived off he public trough their entire career, hard work is a myth.”
Nick’s response to a comment I made to Bron, knowing full well that I worked for the government for 32 years. This is an example of Nick’s snide and cowardly method of attack. He injects himself into long discussion threads, this one being particularly an interesting one with a wide range of views and attacks people gratuitously. Then of course when a response is made the “Macho Male” plays innocent victim.
“mark2575, Please stay here. Some of these bozos will try and run your off, they like a tight circle..like their asses.”
Another attack comment from Nick two comments later.
“mark2575, And understand the back story. For some, certainly not all, they are seeing the President they voted for twice, and even knocked on doors for, pissing on both his legs while shitting his pants. It’s a stressful episode in their lives, so we should be empathetic.”
The next comment from “poor innocent nick”
““Never once WON an argument.” A phrase oft repeated by yourself. I have often said I don’t look upon this as a debate w/ win or lose, but a discussion.”
The next comment by Nick.
“Who could argue with such a critique of pure reason? So much evidence, so artfully presented! Absurd, yet flaccid!
:roll:”
Gene’s response.
“I’m sure you have flaccid on your mind. Tell her it’s just whiskey dick, you’re really a man.”
Nick’s reply
“You don’t want to play dozens w/ me.”
Nick’s follow up reply. I not that “dozens” is a game that has its origins in Black culture and typically played there one brings in the others family in sexual terms. Nick was in effect challenging Gene to play “dozens” with him and Gene did as follows:
Actually I chose the word flaccid after discussing you with your daughter.
As for the capacity to insult? You aren’t my match there either.
However, what is manifestly apparent is that you’ve completely ignored all warning about your propensity to go ad hominem in this forum.
How’d that work out for you last time?
You’ll only get so many of those warnings, nick.”
Nick’s response and the “poor me” game begins:
“My dead sister and now my daughter. You win!”
To which Gene rightly replies:
“I’m so disturbed by your manufactured outrage. Awwww. Po’ lil’ ol’ youz. 🙄
You reap what you sow, nick.
You seem to want to be able to insult others all you like but whine when you get back what you give.
None of those lessons about the Ethic of Reciprocity ever sink in?”
After this Nick made no more comments on that thread, once again being chastened. This has been Nick’s MO since he has come to this blog. He came in trying to play Alpha male and thus rise to prominence. His performance was weak both logically and in his ability to make any case other than anecdotes for his arguments. You will not on the excellent thread on French Taxation that has generated many comments there has been a rather lively and civil debate, other than Nick’s comments and replies to them by Gene and by me. Otherwise Gene who has contributed much to the intellectual discussion there has been civil towards both Bron and DavidM. The fact is that first I and then Gene have been calling out Nick for his dismal and deceitful performance since he has arrived here. I’m not against a lively debate, nor am I against people vigorously attacking others positions. I disagree with Bron for instance politically, but I like his persona here. DavidM and I certainly differ philosophically, but I welcome his civil comments. Hell I even disagree with JT at times and he not only runs this blog, but it is his sufferance that allows me to be a guest blogger. I see Nick, however, as a dishonest player and a typical bully. Unfortunately for him he is in a milieu where there are many who not only see through him, but are far more logical and skillful opponents.
Within the context of the “dozens” game he was dared to play by Nick, Gene’s response was perfectly appropriate.
Chuck
It does seem to go hand in hand sometimes between sexual predation and general violence.
An inmate serving life here in WA for rape received the death penalty for murdering a prison guard.
Byron Scherf
“The fact is that this adult woman was told to not have a relationship with this girl. She chose to ignore not only the parents, but the law. What is missing here is any concern for the rights of the parents. Will the law support the rights of the parents to control their children and who they may associate with?”
The facts indicate that the parents called the police, not the 18 y/o. If that is the case, the 18 y/o was never given the opportunity to respect the alleged rights of parents.
And yes, there is a law, a law over which the state (through the prosecutor) has discretion to prosecute. I question the motives of this prosecutor prosecuting this case on these facts. It is a waste of resources, and will quite likely damage (if not ruin) the lives of both the 18 y/o and the 15 y/o.
I don’t have a problem with Florida treating a homosexual relationship between an 18y/o and a 14 y/o the same as it treats a heterosexual relationship between an 18 y/o and a 14 y/o. In fact, treating them differently would be unjust.
“The FACT is that we are dealing with the LAW not psychology.”
Actually the law is always dealing with psychology, but it is sometimes behind the curve. The law is wrong because the psychological reality is in discord with it. You cannot have laws that are in discord with human nature and expect them to work well if at all. One need look no further than the disaster that was/is Prohibition/the War on Drugs to see the truth of that proposition. The social cost of current statutory rape laws is too high to merit the mutually social benefit if it gives kids a record for simply being kids. There are better ways to protect children from adult predation than an arbitrary line at age 18 (16 in some states). There should be brackets of ages dependent upon context instead of a one size fits all solution.
Gene H from what I read in the article, there IS consideration given to age differences in the statutory rape laws which is why the prosecutors offered a rather good plea deal with the proviso that she can be not required to register for life as a sexaul offender. The fact is that as long as you keep the age of majority at 18, then ALL the laws apply to them. If a boy can be ordered at age 18 to join the military and possibly lose their life, then it is not too much to insist that they act and be treated as adults.
“which is why the prosecutors offered a rather good plea deal with the proviso that she can be not required to register for life as a sexaul offender.”
Randyjet,
Being given a record as a Felon is not a good pleas deal. It will effect her badly for the rest of her life, for doing something that perhaps 75% of teenagers do.
I am fairly certain that 75% of 18 year old students are NOT going out with 14 year old girls. In fact, any student who does this will have the same thing happen to him what happened to Kate. The only difference is that it will NOT make the news and have any protests made. I suggest you stick to facts. As I said earlier, when I was that age, I and most of all my friends knew exactly when we ceased to be considered juveniles. In fact, we also knew how to get the number of an abortionist if it were required back when it was still illegal. We also knew what the age of consent was too and knew to stay away from underage girls if we were 18.
America’s children, posing as adult prosecutors and other law enforcement officials, need to be fired.