Report: Panetta Disclosed Classified Information To Filmmaker of “Zero Dark Thirty”

220px-Leon_Panetta,_official_DoD_photo_portrait,_2011Attorney General Eric Holder recently told intelligence community lawyers that he wants them to continue the Administration’s crackdown on leakers and media sources despite calls for his termination and the controversy on the attack on the free press. The message is clear: there will be no quarter given those who disclose classified information. Well not everyone. This week it was revealed that former CIA Director Leon Panetta disclosed classified information to “Zero Dark Thirty” filmmaker Mark Boal. According to an inspector general report, the disclosure of the name of the Navy SEAL unit that carried out the Osama bin Laden raid and the unit’s ground commander at a 2011 ceremony. Some of the information was marked as “top secret.”

UnknownThe wonderful thing for Holder is that this leaker is known and there are witnesses. He made the disclosure in front of 1,300 people in a tent at the CIA complex on June 24, 2011. So Panetta is now being housed next to Bradley Manning, right? Not quite. The Administration leaks classified information on a regular basis. On Obama Farm, all leakers are equal but some leakers are more equal than others.

Notably, this disclosure helped a filmmaker who was developing a controversial film that seemed to herald the value of torture by CIA employees. Like many, I was surprised by the degree to which the movie made it look like it was torture that led to the killing of Obama in direct contradiction to what we know about the various sources used in the operation. Giving top secret information to a filmmaker for such a film does not appear to be a matter for prosecution. Now, the Associated Press or Fox News? That is an entirely different question. In that case, the reporters are viewed by the Administration as an possible criminal co-conspirator. In the case, of Boal, he was not a co-conspirator . . . just part of the creative enterprise.

Source: Politico

204 thoughts on “Report: Panetta Disclosed Classified Information To Filmmaker of “Zero Dark Thirty”

  1. Without a penchant for parody, Panetta remains a perfectly prosaic paragon portraying the Peter Principle perfectly.

  2. Why does everyone feign surprise when there are two sets of rules and double standards. They exist everywhere, and if you have a nonpartisan mind you see all of them.

  3. How much more evidence do we need to impeach Holder and Obama? In the past month we have learned about so many poor bush policies that were expanded upon by Obama. Yet we sail along. And with the latest phone spy operation, most of our elected representatives are supportive? It is clearly time to not vote a single one of these people back.

  4. Dick Cheney is still walking around free as a bird after his role in outing Valerie Plame, and what about that weirdo, Gen. Petraeus and his adulterous “pillow talk” while CIA director … he’s still giving speeches around the country … Panetta fits right in.

    Obama appointed both Panetta and Petraeus so maybe Holder should be looking up the food chain rather than down. Just sayin’ ….

  5. Some individuals are authorized to release classified information. When they do, those individuals are not “leaking” information.

  6. “… it was torture that led to the killing of Obama…” I think I’d have heard something about this. And would have been quite distraught.

  7. Simply simple sobriquets for the shortsighted simpleminded sojourners shown up on this spot or playful penning for perspicacious purveyors of parlance?

  8. “Children love alliteration, it made the curmudgeonly Dr. Suess millions.”


    An early thread hijack attempt via an attack on Gene. You are as incapable of self restraint, as you are of self-awareness. when Gene demolishes you, you will play amnesiac and cry victim again. Poor widdle Nickyboy.

  9. It seems that some top secret intelligence is more important to reveal than other top secret intelligence. I would guess that fully 95% of what is classified as “top secret” is basic ass covering. The “secrets” that do get leaked are “self-promotion”. It is interesting that the film maker of “Zero Dark Thirty”, previously made a film about bomb detonators in Iraq. She is said to be quite skilled although I refused to see either film. We have seen in the past many people with artistic skill use in tandem with our Defense/Intelligence Establishment. As an artist, she’s a good propagandist. A Leni Riefensteihl, who works in drama, rahter than documentary style.

  10. “Nattering nabobs of negativity.” Spiro Agnew was also a fan. And can’t you two little boys stick up for yourselves? If clutter really concerns you, why don’t you each fight your own battles? Probably because a team always has to double and triple team the most formidable opponent. A compliment from “the smartest guys in the room” who aren’t smart enough to see it. You can’t make this stuff up!

  11. Refusing to see films, refusing to donate to PBS, I don’t think this as anything but being a close minded, cheapskate.

  12. Mike,

    I must quibble about Bigelow. She’s skilled as a director, but as a propagandist, she’s a mixed bag at best and awful at worst. The best propaganda is practically invisible as such. That is the way with all forms of persuasive speech, the essence of the Jedi Mind Trick. ZDT on the other hand fairly screamed apologist fascist propaganda from the get go.

  13. “Probably because a team always has to double and triple team the most formidable opponent.”

    I laughed so hard, I snorted coffee. Narcissism run amok. The only thing formidable about you, nick, is your self-perceptual blindness. You have yet to post anything this morning that doesn’t simply prove that you are incapable of controlling your passive-aggressive behavior.

    The harder you fight, the worse you look and the more the point about your bad behavior being pathological is made.


  14. This is such a stretch it is funny! He was giving out awards for crying out loud and thought every person there was cleared. It is NOT like giving out intel to a reporter in a dark garage. Let me know when you come up with something real.

  15. Then, why the constant double and triple teams? Why not just ignore me? That would be the smart thing to do if I am beneath you.

  16. I agree with Mike S. that a large portion of the allegedly classified information is just covering up the nonsense that goes on in the military and in the intelligence world. It prevents the world from seeing just how many mistakes are made when you carry nuclear weapons or material related to nukes or other “secret” programs. I wonder if the NSA is reading this blog right now??

  17. You attack people and then ask why you are attacked in kind.

    Is that too hard for you to figure out on your own?

    Apparently so.

    You reap what you sow.

  18. Prosecutor: Objection, your honor, not responsive.

    Court: Objection sustained. The witness has been asked twice about why the constant double teams and has not responded. You are to respond to that question, now.

  19. “I wonder if the NSA is reading this blog right now??” (raf)

    They’re probably as hooked on the Find the Kitteh threads as the rest of us are.

  20. “Then, why the constant double and triple teams? Why not just ignore me? That would be the smart thing to do if I am beneath you.”


    Because with people suffering from your kind of disorders, ignoring you would just give you license to act out further. By responding to you we develop a record of your behavior for all to see, otherwise the casual observer might think that the lack of response to you means acquiescence. If it was just about you getting the last word, you would have had it long ago. After having it though and incidentally your pleading for civility the very next day you attacked gratuitously again. For some reason you have developed a hatred for me, Gene and Mespo too. It probably is because in your very first comment on this blog you came in attacking and we both shot you down, having seen this behavior before from others of your ilk in the past.

    I suspect your problem here is that in your personal life the bully in you is not challenged. Even the professions, you profess to have had, are ones where bullies can get away with their meanness. As with most bullies you are most probably analingually inclined when dealing with your superiors and that inclination is the source of the scatology of your comments. You are obsessed with excrement, since you worship it in those “alphas” you cow to. In truth Nick, I get no real pleasure in deconstructing you since I actually pity your psychological state, but I’ve stood up to bullies all my life and you’re no exception. The fact that you so lack self-awareness that you see it the other way around and are thus incapable of assessing your own culpability in this, is merely a reflection of your disorder.

    The reason I think that people on this blog tend to like me is that I am not into on inflicting pain on others and have proven it over the years. I even became friendly with someone who attacked me as a “Christ Killer”, but that was because he was capable of realizing by people’s reactions, that he was off base. You don’t seem to realize that. What you miss is that when you are not attacking people snidely, you actually get friendly responses here. The only “In Crowd” here is the one in your mind. The “Guest Bloggers” were asked to be by Jonathan Turley, for his own reasons, nobody got there by asking. We stay on as guest bloggers at his pleasure. We also help share the burden of this non-profit blog by helping with some of the housekeeping chores, like dealing with the WordPress spam filter. That is the extent of our being the “In Crowd” save for the years of friendship and respect built up. I’ve said it before that the “In Crowd” here is made up of people who are interesting in their comments and we welcome new ones every day and take pains to make them feel welcome. However, there are those like yourself who come in with invective and over aggression. These people like you are unable to tolerate anyone disagreeing with them and also are unable to present a logical case for their opinions, those people are not greeted with open arms.

    I’ve gone beyond the my own, self-imposed, one paragraph rule to try to get you to understand the dynamics of what is going on here. Sadly, I’ve had to honestly characterize your behavior to once again, vainly I fear, to try to get you to understand what is going on here. I’ve also done it to make clear to others why these attacks of yours are disrupting threads and must be dealt with.

  21. A few NSA guys might be into Find the Kitteh. But many more are “monitoring” the blogs involving the other cat term, “Pussy” and “Beaver” blogs.

  22. “Blouise, They read facebook all day. They know how many scrabble games we have won.”


    Blouise keeps beating me because I get “bad” letters all the time. Yes that’s the ticket.:)

  23. “I must quibble about Bigelow. She’s skilled as a director, but as a propagandist, she’s a mixed bag at best and awful at worst. The best propaganda is practically invisible as such. That is the way with all forms of persuasive speech, the essence of the Jedi Mind Trick. ZDT on the other hand fairly screamed apologist fascist propaganda from the get go.”


    I agree with your quibble because it makes sense. Had the film obviously not been propaganda I might have seen it. The trick of the great propagandist is to suck you in and inculcate the message without you even realizing it. My defense against it was as a young boy hearing my father talk back at the TV all the time when he would see BS. I have that habit now, but some of the people closest to me find it annoying, no names of course.:)

  24. I really just dislike you and your alliterative buddy. Professor Tony and I are getting better, but we still have a way to go. Other than that I kind of like, to really like, everyone else. That’s why I’m here. I’m here in spite of you. So, there’s that. I’ll cease calling you on your pomposity, dishonesty, sanctimony and blatant partisanship when you cease being pompous, dishonest, sanctimonious, and partisan. And, I strongly encourage you to adhere to your self imposed one paragraph rule for the sake of all here.

  25. “I really just dislike you and your alliterative buddy.”

    I just pity you and have sympathy for those who know you personally.

  26. There are leakers and then there are golden showers….. Still feeling that warm glow upon the US…..

    Now, back to Manning and Julian Assange…. What will happen to them….

    Oh my no one has come out in defense of the National Dictator Party yet….

  27. When I first read the title of this article, I could only think of Bradley Manning and the hipocracy of it all.

    One part of me feels he, and others like him, who disclose classified information should be held accountable, and the other part of me admires what he did because the federal gov’t is becoming more and more contemptable and abusive each day.

    Given also how Manning was reportedly treated since his arrest, if there ever was a case for jury nullification this would be it.

  28. It still shocks me that people think Bradley Manning is some sort of here. Governments must be able to keep secrets, especially military ones. We can argue about what should be classified if we want, but the fact is that someone in Bradley Manning’s position is not permitted to decide, for themselves, what should be declassified on a whim.

  29. “but the fact is that someone in Bradley Manning’s position is not permitted to decide, for themselves, what should be declassified on a whim.”


    In the Nuremburg Trials we established that being complicit in war crimes was not excused by “following orders”. Manning saw evidence of war crimes being committed and was duty bound to blow the whistle.

  30. Elaine,

    You are right about his getting into a dust up with you and it seemed he is condescending when it comes to women. didn’t it start with him pontificating about his alleged teaching experience? Yes he has been critical of you in particular, join the club. As for Mark, I sort of remember an angry exchange between them (or at least angry on his part), but then he has started so many disruptive exchanges it is hard to keep track, especially because he denies they ever happened.

  31. I wasn’t aware criticism was bad. Elaine, we have made our least I thought we did. You see your friends looking for support and you give it to them. For the most part that’s admirable. What I see in the difference between how you and I have evolved centers on the woman man relationship. I’ve said to you, and others, I do much better w/ women in many respects. The marking territory alpha horseshit is tedious @ best, destructive @ worst. I hate it and avoid it whenever possible We still battle about teacher’s unions and I consider that healthy. You cite “the school marm” being used several times in the past. We also had a very heated exchange on rape wherein you acknowledged I had much more experience on the issue, which happens to be a passion of mine. You can’t know how much that angered me, having sat down w/ many rape victims and helped them get through the prosecution of the felons who destroyed their sense of self. However, I thought that was water under the bridge. I let that go, and continue to. I am willing to invest time and effort to make sure we are ok. I am not a political animal. In politics, people stick together because of the team jersey they wear. I don’t give a shit what team a person is on, I just care about who they are. I treat them the way they treat me. If two people are going @ it, it’s between them. I’m not a manipulator or bullshitter. I again apologize for any bad feelings I’ve caused for you in the past. I will effort to make sure it doesn’t happen again and I KNOW I’ve been doing that for several months.I promise to do that on the souls of my dead parents. My prayer is that the peace I thought we have both worked on will continue and not be effected by my clashes w/ your two friends. I have made a connection w/ your love of poetry and my sisters equal love. That is real and nothing will change that..NOTHING.

  32. I see Tailgunner Joe McCarthy is back to his “alleged” and “possible” mode of cowardly accusations. I thought we got past that. My teaching experience can be verified by the Wi. Dept. of Public Instruction. My PI license[still current] through the Dept of Regulation and Licensing. I knew you would never take me up on the 1k bet being a tightwad and one who likes to talk, but not walk.

  33. Gino, Whether you’re smart enough to know it or not, you threw a batting practice fastball w/ your inane “sucking” comment. But, I have class and will let it go.

  34. josh brings up a good point. what exactly is necessary for national security? Honestly not too much, any possible enemy if they have an intelligence community, can find out all sorts of things by reading Jane’s.

    We should know most of the stuff which are government is doing in our name. We dont need to know the names and identities of our intelligence operatives working in foreign lands but we certainly have a right to any intelligence also known by an unfriendly government.

    my guess is that if we really knew what the hell our government is doing in the name of our “national security” we would be appalled.

    And the sad thing is, they couldnt even stop the Boston bombings when the perps were handed to these bozos on a silver platter by the Russians.

  35. “The Ship of State leaks from the top” — U.S. President John F. Kennedy

    “Kill the chicken, scare the monkey” — Ancient Chinese proverb

    Free Bradley Manning (in forty-four syllables)

    Petulant President
    Barack Obama who
    Hates him some leakers (just
    Not from the top),
    Makes an example of
    Low-level privates so
    Cabinet ministers
    Don’t have to stop.

    Michael Murry, “The Misfortune Teller,” Copyright © 2012

  36. I can remember back the day when US military briefings in Saigon went by the name of “The Five O’Clock Follies.” No one in their right mind took anything that the US military said at face value. Their lying, bungling, incompetence, and career ass-covering had reached such awesome levels that not even superlative descriptions like “Olympian” could do their professional prevaricating the justice it deserved.

    Credibility Gap

    And given the utter drivel that pours from between their lying lips today, I don’t see any reason to grant the US military — and certainly America’s current Commander-In-Brief — the benefit of even the smallest doubt. They don’t deserve it.

    Credibility Chasm

  37. I like the experiments with alliteration, Gene. Keep at it. Poems often begin with just such free-form experimentation with sound and symbol. A few years ago, my wife and I went gargoyle hunting with a camera in New York City. Afterwards, I found myself gazing at the haunting images while thinking — as I do for awhile every day — of lying Army generals and their lying Commander-in-Brief. Then this happened:

    Gargoyles and Grotesques

    Gulping gurgling gargling gargoyle ghoul
    Gothic gutter gushing ghastly grime
    Dreadful drainpipe dripping dismal drool
    Mythic manic monster mouthing mime

    Supra-sight-line sentry, seldom seen
    Solemn siren’s scathing silent screed
    Mumbling mantras, morbid maudlin mien
    Noxious nightmare; naked knowing need

    Crouching, cracked and crumbling, cold and cruel
    Snide and surly cynic sneering snot
    Grimly gagging greenish gullet gruel
    Nasty gnawing notion, near but not

    Rueful ruined relic, rough and rude
    Gruesome grinning goblin gazing grim
    Lustful leering laughing lecher lewd
    Heartless harping harlot’s heathen hymn

    Squatting; squinting; squirting; stony; still
    Wrecked and wretched, wrought in wrath: a wraith
    Chiseled chunk of cheerless churlish chill
    Faded face of folly, fraud, and faith

    Spirit spigot spewing psychic sludge
    Darkened doorway demon; dragon dream
    Jeering Janus, jesting jaded judge
    Scornful scary sculpture, schizoid scream

    Sobbing, snarling, smirking, smiling, smug
    Venting vacant visions vainly versed
    Damned despairing draught, disdainful drug
    Creepy cretin creature carved accursed

    Michael Murry, “The Misfortune Teller,” Copyright © 2009

  38. nick,

    I made a comment to Mike stating that I felt that you had no problem with Mespo–but had had a problem with me in the past. That’s a fact. I do my best to argue about the content of of a discussion/topic of a post. Sometimes, we go astray in our discussions–for good reasons; sometimes we deviate from the subject at hand because someone does her/his best to hijack a discussion…or to poke at a hornets’ nest.

    Constructive criticism is good. Criticizing individuals just to get a rise out of them is not done with the best intentions.

  39. Elaine, We are in agreement. The problem I have is the two people in question just bring out my dark side. We all have a dark side. I’m pretty good @ controlling it. And, although I do poke the hornet’s nest @ times w/ my two fellow commenters, I don’t get profane, or bring family into the discussion. I don’t call or intimate people are lying about their work experience or life experiences. I consider that over the line and classless. As long as we’re cool then I feel good. There is a big expansion of school vouchers being proposed in Wisconsin. If the topic comes up I will refrain from comment, a positive gesture of goodwill. My tongue may bleed from biting it, but I’ll pay that price.That, as you know, brings out my dark side. I look forward to your positive poetry posts, a breath of fresh air in the often sea of negativity here.

  40. Size 8 1/2 hat size. Filled w/ life experiences that most appreciate, and that some find intimidating. C’est la vie.

  41. nick,

    You are the master of yourself. You can control your dark side–just as the rest of us can. I admit to having a snarky and sarcastic sense of humor–which I do my best to keep under wraps when making comments on this blog.

    No one has asked you–or expects you–to refrain from commenting on any subject of discussion on this blog. If the topic of school vouchers should come up, I have no problem with proponents of vouchers stating their position on the subject.

  42. It’s really cute you think you’re intimidating when in reality you’re just another wanker who can’t follow the rules. And please. Do blame it on a lack of self-control on your part. That only illustrates further that your bad behavior is pathological.

    You’re adorable when you go all tough guy.

    Just remember this: While Elaine is correct that you are free comment on any subject of discussion on this blog that you are not free to attack other posters in an ad hominem manner. You’ve been told to stop. You’ve had the futility of your tactic exposed at every turn. You’ve even been told by our host to stop. Yet you continue and admit you have no self-control. If you mistake our patience for bad behavior as infinite, that would be your mistake. Another poster once thought she could make infinite gratuitous ad hominem attacks on other posters. After failing to heed numerous warnings, she’s been banned a long time now. If you’d like to join her in exile, just keep on as you have. Our patience with bad behavior may be long and enduring, but it is not infinite.

    Stick to issues and arguments and you’ll avoid trouble.

    Keep up the personal attacks? Against anyone? We’ll eventually make you stop. No more asking. No more telling. You’ll just be in moderation, your every post awaiting editorial approval, or simply blacklisted.

    And it will entirely be your own doing.


  43. Arthur Randolph Erb: This is such a stretch it is funny! He was giving out awards for crying out loud and thought every person there was cleared.”

    The problem with his presumption is that clearance level does not govern suitability for recieving classified information, “need to know” does.

    But this points up an interesting dynamic regarding classified information. People that have clearances are phycologicly part of a phychological club, they’re exclusive, special. They value that exclusivity. Having so many people with clerances, and so much information classified is a phychological job perk.

    A promotion is classicaly an increase in status or wages or responsibility/authority and/or some combination thereof. Having a lot of classified information under your command demands more cleared personell and more cleared personnell and information means a bigger budget in the government. There are very personal reasons for the explosion of security agencies and information since 911. The Patriot Act and the host of laws and regulations it spawned has monitized the security state.

  44. As someone stated above, some leakers are more equal than others. The hacking the FBI has accused this man of has already been claimed by another, this man just publisized the extistant materials passed on to him by a reporter. From a BoingBoing link:

    “Exclusive: Leader of Anonymous Steubenville Op on Being Raided by the FBI – If convicted of hacking-related charges, Deric Lostutter could get more jail time than the rapists he went after.”

  45. This is your 47th threat w/ no consequences. You would be a horrible parent. You and one or 2 others have a problem w/ me. Buck up, buttercup!

  46. Elaine, You conjure up the “Master of your domain” Seinfeld episode. Kramer was the first one out, and so would I! At least back when it was originally aired.

  47. “The Patriot Act and the host of laws and regulations it spawned has monitized the security state.” LK The proof of that is the price of real estate in Northern Virginia.

  48. “How much more evidence do we need to impeach Holder and Obama?”

    We don’t need any more evidence. We need a functioning Senate.

    The problem is, there’s no way to make a functioning Senate. The thing is constructed to be non-functioning, with the staggered terms and the malapportionment and the supermajority rules. You can’t get 67 votes in the Senate for ANYTHING decent.

    Because of the Senate rules, we will probably have to have a bloody revolution instead. (Since the non-functioning Senate is going to cause EVERYTHING to get worse, year after year.) Isn’t that sad?

  49. nick, More Maryland but Northern Virginia, also. Don’t have the Texas house on the market yet. Still more work to do.

  50. Good luck on selling and buying. The former should be easier than the latter, houses are flying off the market in some areas. My daughter and her husband just bought their first house, closed on Monday. They loved a house in St. Paul. It was nicer and cheaper than their second pick in Minneapolis. They were ready to pounce but asked them to wait. I did some investigation and learned the St. Paul house had a lot of crime, the Minneapolis house very safe. I determined a cop lives 2 doors down from them. Many here hate cops but it’s nice to have one on your block.

  51. “How much more evidence do we need to impeach Holder and Obama?”

    But aren’t we going to need Holder to indict Panetta? I mean we can’t just have government officials going around and revealing sources and methods – now can we?

    For a commercial (read Hollywood) project – really??? It is not like Panetta blew the whistle to the NYT or the WAPO.

    Does it make any sense to get rid of Holder now that we really, really need him?

  52. nick, I lived in the twin cities for eleven years and know the neighborhoods very well. Some of my best friends live there.

  53. Nick,

    You’re incorrect with that generalization…. Many here don’t hate cops anymore than they hate you….. They just distrust them…..and you….

  54. Swarthmore mom,

    I’ll be moving to our new place next weekend. Last year, we found a lovely antique home with a wonderful in-law apartment. Our apartment is a converted carriage house. It’s taken us many months to renovate the apartment. We had wood floors installed and lots of built-in bookcases made to house my extensive collection of books–the great majority of which are children’s books and poetry books. I’ve had to give most of my adult books away.

    I wish you luck in your search for a new home. We were fortunate to find a place with a large in-law apartment…and one that isn’t situated in a basement. We have well over three acres of land. The property was–back in the late 1700s–an apple farm. We just planted four fruit trees and some blueberries bushes there. I’ll be happy when I don’t have to live in two places any longer…and can see my granddaughter every day.

  55. AY, Wrong thread. However, your comment on the correct thread was not more positive. Do you trust me?

  56. It’ll end soon enough, nick, but I have approved every comment you’ve made that didn’t involve a personal attack of some sort. If this sample isn’t enough to teach you the lesson not to break the rules around here, I have no issue with escalating the matter to make your status permanent.

  57. SWM, I seem to remember you saying you lived in the Cities. They bought a modest 3BR near Lake Nokomis. It has a brand new kitchen. All the neighbors have been real nice. Apparently the former owners were jerks. My daughter is stubborn and really wanted to buy the St. Paul house. I am a libertarian in all aspects and let my adult kids make their own decisions. I told her the neighborhood in St. Paul was bad, but she wanted my approval. She asked, “Would you feel safe w/ me living there?” My answer was a quick, “No.” I then followed up w/ “It’s your life and your money, but my housewarming gift to you will be a shotgun.” She got the message.

  58. Nick, I have door knocked that neighborhood many times. They do a lot of door to door campaigning there. I worked for a State Senator at one time that represented that neighborhood. Safety is important, and I am constantly reminding my daughter that as she looks for apartments.

  59. Elaine, Thanks for sharing your story about your new home. It sounds wonderful. We are downsizing.

  60. Elaine, My wife’s childhood friend, Linda Colletti, is a grief counselor. She just published a book called, 101 Rainbow Ribbons. It helps children get through the process of death and funerals that is quite foreign to them. My wife has been working on a novel for a decade based on her career in the Federal Prison and Court system. It’s called, Taken for Granted. It set in Madison and involves college medical grants, drugs and murder. It will be on Amazon within a week or so. She has a follow-up in the can. She had an agent from NYC who was just not responsive so she is self publishing. Soon there may not be any publishing houses.

  61. nick,

    It’s difficult getting a book published these days. I know a couple of writer friends who have self-published. I was fortunate. One of my dearest friends is an award-winning children’s author and illustrator. Her name is Grace Lin.
    Grace gave one of my children’s poetry manuscripts to her editor at Chronicle Books in San Francisco. Her editor loved my manuscript and bought it. I had to do several revisions of it. Now, I have to wait patiently while the publisher finds an illustrator for my book. I hope it gets published in the next couple of years.

  62. Elaine, Persistence is what leads to success. I have a friend in Madison who is a barrister. His father-in-law is Leonard Kessler who has illustrated and written children’s books for over 50 years. His wife and collaborator died a few years back. Leonard was a college friend of Andy Warhol in Pittsburgh and they moved together to NYC, living as starving artists. They both ended up doing quite well. Leonard has several original Warhols that Andy just gave to him. Leonard lives in Florida now and is retired. He’s a WW2 vet. He tells a funny story of being sent on scouting missions to draw maps of enemy positions, towns, bridges, etc. Being an artist, he was quite meticulous. His commanding officer told him to forget the aesthetics and just draw the details I don’t know if Leonard is doing anymore drawings but if your publisher is striking out I’ll be happy to ask my buddy if Leonard is taking on any projects. He’s an ace.

  63. SM:

    come to Virginia, much less expensive than MD as far as taxes go. although houses for sale are few and far between or so I am told.

    what areas are you looking?

    Suburban DC is all pretty nice.

  64. nick:

    enough with the name dropping, very interesting anecdotes and great stories. I dont know if I can “tolerate” your posts for too much longer.:)

  65. Bron, I guess anecdotes and name dropping are acceptable today? Leonard is a big baseball fan and loves going to Spring Training games.

  66. Elaine,

    So you know a famous children’s book author? Not as interesting as good as the one I know.

    It is known as the Fitting Game and “Can you top this?” This game was discussed in Eric Bernese’. ‘The Games People Play”. It is considered a classic passive aggressive gambit.

  67. Elaine & nick,
    When my younger daughter was fighting for her life as a toddler, somebody gave us a copy of Erma Bombeck’s book, I Want to Grow Hair, I Want to Grow Up, I Want to Go to Boise.

    We still have the book. She lived, but my grandson did not. Elaine, we treasure the book you sent for Reed, and that paper snowflake will be with him forever.

    I have started a book about her several times. Everyone to whom I have shown the rough draft outline always bursts into tears.

  68. OS, You’ve been through a lot. It’s a tribute to you that you remain positive. It’s all about attitude and helping others. We can choose to be happy or curmudgeonly as we grow older. The fact that Elaine reached out to you in a difficult time shows her good heart. It’s about actions, not words.That is what God wants from us, everything else is inconsequential. Embrace the positive people and try to avoid the negative as best as possible. That’s what my old man taught me. I was blessed to have great parents, and I sense you were also.

  69. Otteray,

    The idea for that book and the painted snowflakes that raised money for the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund was Grace Lin’s. As you know, Grace’s first husband Robert Mercer died from Ewing’s sarcoma. He was diagnosed with the cancer just months after they married. I am happy to tell you that Grace remarried in 2010 and had her first child last year. I am touched that you buried that snowflake with Reed. It is so sad when good people die young. I can think of nothing more terrible than losing a child or grandchild. I am sure you have many wonderful memories of your times spent with Reed.

    My maternal grandparents lost two of their four children when they were in their early adulthood. I never knew my Uncle Stanley.

  70. Mike, Could you please be more specific and less obtuse about your “Can you top this” comment. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation and candor. I’m being moderated and have to speak like a nice boy.

  71. The sole issue is your inability to refrain from ad hominem attacks, nick.

    Your choice in targets is irrelevant.

  72. Nick!,

    More specific? I was quite specific, one only has to know the reference. And civilty becomes you.

  73. Then please explain further. Were you speaking of my wife, Mr. Kessler or myself? By the way, my wife’s book is now available in paperback on Amazon, kindle in a week or so. Mr. Kessler has many best sellers.

  74. Mike, Being disabled, don’t you hate it when people w/o disabled stickers park in disabled parking stalls?

  75. Mike, Why do you think so many people pick their noses in the car. Don’t they realize they’re surrounded by windows?

  76. Swarthmore mom: “The Patriot Act and the host of laws and regulations it spawned has monitized the security state.” LK The proof of that is the price of real estate in Northern Virginia.

    Lots of luck on the house hunting, I recall reading that moving house is one of the handful of most stressful things a person can do: marriage, divorce, birth of a child, death of a close family member, job change and moving house. Be careful out there.

    I read about a year ago that the new status symbol among the security agency crowd was having, and the size of the agency director’s security detail, black SUV’s and security details. I just know they start the fires at the annual agency BBQ’s with bricks of hundred dollar bills, I just know it.:-)

  77. nick,
    I see your spamming the thread. That is my fact base. Knock it off. You are driving valid comments down off the front page. On most other blogs that kind of thing can get you banned.

  78. nick, Did you see the movie Francis Ha? it is a comedy that is playing at the art movie houses.

  79. Smom,

    Offensive isn’t the issue (although I agree with your general statement).

    Not abiding by the rules is the issue.

  80. OS, I have been censored all day by Gene H. I merely ask you how you would feel if someone arbitrarily and capriciously monitored and censored your ALL comments, no matter how innocent. Not one comment was profane or worthy of deletion. The “moderation” has stopped and so I will stop. Your friend thinks he can intimidate, bully, or drive me off. He is sadly mistaken Talk to him..not me. He used his authority unrighteously and I surmise he may have been called out on it. He can answer that. I have no beef w/ you, OS.

  81. Gene, SWM and I have a regular exchange on movies we have seen. So, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

  82. I don’t care if you stay or not, nick, but you will follow the rules regarding personal attacks. No one has “called me out” either. I told you it was for today and so it was. I approved all of your comments that didn’t contain some kind of personal attack. However, start up again and see how that works out for you.

  83. And I do so much agree…. Nick, in the same breath…. Is a paranoid person ever alone….

  84. SWM, I’ve not seen it, or even heard of it. What’s your take? I was going to see the Redford flick where he plays an undercover radical but it was panned so badly I didn’t. I haven’t seen a movie since 42. I’ve read many books about Jackie and Branch Rickey. It was pretty accurate, and I cried like a little girl. My daughter was tearful but sooo angry. That generation needs to know, and need to be angry, about what Jack and other pioneers endured.

  85. You’re lying about not deleting questions unless they contained a personal attack. You deleted several comments where I merely pointed out you were monitoring and deleting my comments. No personal attacks, no sarcasm even. You aren’t righteous, and should not have authority to monitor or delete. You simply don’t have the morals or temperament for that position. I’ll be back tomorrow, and every day I am breathing. And, I am not chastened, I am emboldened. So, deal w/ it! I’m going to bed. Sleep tight, don’t let the bed bugs bite.

  86. The best movie out now is ‘Before Midnight’ with Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpee. It opened here this weekend. Francis Ha is a little art movie directed by Noah Baumbach. I liked it.

  87. Elaine, Mike S has not manned up about his snarky comment. I was in no way trying to play “top this.” I saw all the horseshit my wife went through getting her book published. I merely wanted to help you w/ an illustrator that I know is real good if I could. It was just a gesture of kindness, nothing more or less. Some people don’t seem to be able to see through their own issues. C’est la vie.

  88. nick,

    Like I said, I don’t care if you stay or not, but you will follow the rules regarding personal attacks. If you don’t like the result of your continued rule breaking, I suggest you stop it.

  89. SWM, Thanks, I Rotten Tomatoed Francis Ha and I think I’ll see it when it comes through town. I really like Ethan Hawke. I thought he was just as good as Denzel in Training Day.

  90. Nick,

    The statement I made was obvious in content to anyone who is self aware. I even included a backup as yo where it derives. E lainemade a statement about her knowing a famous children’s writer. You responded by saying you knew an even more famous illustrator and justified your “topping” her comment by offering to intervene to get him to help. You were topping her with a game called “anything you can do, I can do brtter” and adding to it with a game of I win,: you lose. This social take on game theory was popularized by Dr. Eric Berne. People who play games like this in tandem generally are passive agressive.which is point.You cry victim again today and pretty mich 33

  91. nick,

    “…I don’t know if Leonard is doing anymore drawings but if your publisher is striking out I’ll be happy to ask my buddy if Leonard is taking on any projects. He’s an ace.”


    It doesn’t work that way in children’s publishing. Children’s book editors and art editors consider which artist(s) will be best suited to illustrate a particular picture book text. The first artist they asked to illustrate my book was busy with other projects until 2015…so they decided to look for someone else. Often with first-time authors, editor/publishers will try to find an established/award-winning artist to illustrate her book in order to help sell the book/call attention to it.


    Mike S.,

    I think Grace Lin is probably more well-known than Leonard Kessler. She is the recipient of a Newbury Honor Award, Josette Frank Award, a Theodor (Dr. Suess) Geisel Honor Award, an E.B. White Read-Aloud Honor Award, a Parents Choice Gold Medal–among other awards and acknowledgements.

    I only brought her name into the discussion to show how fortunate I am to have had her help. If not for her, I may never have sold that manuscript. Many children’s publishers today refuse to read unsolicited manuscripts…or will only accept manuscripts from agents. And it’s not often easy to get an agent to represent you if you’re not already published.

  92. Does it really matter that Leon Panetta leaked the hogwash information to whomever was going to manufacture consent for a bit of propagandized twaddle? Most rational people know that Bin Laden died many years ago of natural causes. But – in fantasy land – why spoil a good story with the facts, eh?

  93. Elaine,

    I understood that about Grace Lin. The follow up remark was both an example of a fitting game and the “I can top this”. This has been a repetitive pattern in his responses. Taken alone, so what? Taken as a repetitive pattern withe on occasion vitriol, ad hominem and scatology thrown it, it requires notice.

    On this thread he remarked approriately in the third remark above, stating an opinion. On the fifth remark of the thread he gratuitously attacked Gene, and again it is off to the races. The argument with him is not about his opinions. It is about a constant pattern of attacks craving response and the when responded to mock outrage at being victimized. Nicks commenting here, since the beginning has been played as a game to get attention, rather then to engage in discussion. It is disruptive and while I know it drives people away, such behavipr is characteristic of a bully and if not responded to only escalates. Yet you know that offline I’ve defended his right to be here, despite his varied attempts to disrupt the discussion on threads.

  94. Mike S.,

    As you know, I’ve had my own issues with Nick in the past. He likes to poke at a hornets’ nest…likes to jab at people. Like you, I, too, have defended his right to be here.

  95. Elaine, I’ve learned a bit about publishing via the anguish of my wife’s sojourn. I wish you all the best. If you’ve learned anything about me it is I let people know what I think and feel, be it good or bad. I was not playing some childish game, I was just trying to help. I don’t know squat about children’s books, but I do know Kessler was very successful. You know exponentially more than I and I’m sure Lin is more successful. I didn’t look upon it as a competition, to that I swear under oath. Hell, besides a few of the kids books we had for our children, and now Lin, I don’t know any children’s. My wife is basking in the joy of getting her book published and I receive vicarious pleasure from that. I got more joy watching her childlike excitement recently @ Yellowstone and Teton National Parks. I know the hard work it takes, and I hope and pray you will feel that joy soon. I know you will get there through perseverance, I just hop it’s sooner than later.

  96. Mike,

    While I generally agree with your over all statement…. Nick can be viewed as a nuisance… Ok, he’s done everything… Been everywhere…related every job experience to something somebody else has done… I can read or not read those…

    I maybe wrong but he does not post detraction from the original topic as I may read… If the topic is bashing Obama or his cohorts in crime…. He does not generally post what an A$$ hole somebody else is or detract from the original topic with totally irrevelant posts….

    He may attack and get attacked back, that’s just part or the free flow… If he personally attacks… Well Mike, depending on whom your attacking or attacked by depends upon if there are repercussions…..

    I suggest that the free flow of ideal good, goofy or bad be allowed… Unless they reveal personal information… Which has been done, even to me…. We shouldn’t have two standards one for guest bloggers and one for posters… The rules should be the same….

    At least he has not been labeled a mysogynist yet, but his time will come…. I am almost certain….

    Just don’t read em… Since the spamming attacks… It’s real easy to delete without reading and sometimes I just delete them all without reading…. Saves time with the BS….

  97. The only person who matters to me on my “right” to be here is Mr. Turley. There was a blatant conflict of interest yesterday. I had a dispute w/ a person who has the power to moderate and delete. And he arbitrarily and capriciously abused that right like a child. If you folks are so righteous you would have called your buddy on that outrage. Anyone besides the unstable Guest Blogger should have ben the arbiter yesterday. All of you fellow Guest Bloggers tacitly approved his blatantly wrong actions. So, don’t preach to me this morning about how you are willing to tolerate me because I don’t give a rat’s ass. You forfeited your moral authority yesterday. And, yes Elaine, even though you apparently can hold a grudge forever, I meant EVERYTHING I said about your book. I see in you a good heart. Now for chrissake, lets move past the abuse of power and get on w/ substance. I thought you were Guest Bloggers, not a Star Chamber.

  98. AY, I believe you were taught by the Jesuits. You just showed it. I think I’ve had battles w/ you previously and will again. I respect you and appreciate your thoughtful and wise words. The problem I see is we have some very smart people here w/o a lick of wisdom . And, I am not the only person who relates my varied careers and life experiences. But, in my case it seems to rankle some. But, Mike has intimated they’re “possibly false” and “alleged” and that is McCarthy like. That’s when I bite back hard. I have testified under oath more times than I can count. When I comment here I consider myself under oath. Some people like my anecdotes, some people are neutral, some don’t like them. I surmise the latter being a bit of ugly male trait.

  99. Nick,

    I’m defending your right to post without reprecussions….. I am neither in support of your views or dislike your views… From what I understand from the past in what’s been posted or from what you’ve said allowed to be posted has not risen to the level that gets folks banned…

    Personalities should not factor in beling allowed to post or not…

  100. AY,

    How quickly you forget what got Patty C banned.

    This isn’t about nick’s personality. It’s about his repeated ad hominem attacks. The precise behavior that got Patty the boot. The precise behavior she was engaging in against you if I recall the story.

    If personality was a factor, do you honestly think that a vocal bestiality proponent would be tolerated?

  101. Gene,

    Lol, read the post to mike…. Since the spamming…. It just get easier to delete all….

    Oh no, I have not forgotten patty c….. Specfically September 2009….i haven’t seen what’s not been posted…. So, I don know….. As Ricky Ricardo would say….

  102. AY,

    I read the post to Mike. That doesn’t change the salient facts. Again, nick’s choice in targets (though poor) is not the issue nor is his personality. His persistence in breaking the rules is the issue. The pattern Mike points to is quite distinct and can be easily pulled from the record. That’s all the ‘splainin’ Ricky could ever require.

    So since you acknowledge your knowledge of the facts is limited?

    Perhaps you should recall that you raised no objections when others came to your defense against the same kind of behavior in the past.

  103. Conflict of interest has not been answered. The beef was between myself and Gene and he was the arbiter who deleted my comments. The only complaints of late about me have been Gene and Mike. This is a personal conflict and authority was abused. There is no disputing that, and that’s why it has not received a response. Gene does not possess the requisite temperament to be an arbiter w/ me, or possibly anyone. I think Mike does, but it would also have been a conflict of interest for him since we too were involved in the debacle. One of the other Guest Bloggers should have been the arbiter. A first year law school student or paralegal would know this.

  104. AY, Again, you have wisdom. And, you have a good heart. You welcome people when they’ve been gone for awhile. I notice stuff like that. You are positive and have a witty sense of humor. I have said many times, I would never want to live in a world where people all agreed. I engage w/ all types of people, class, race, religion, politics, etc. I would be bored to death otherwise. That is the core of wisdom, travelling, working different careers, engaging and befriending people different than yourself, etc. Most people respect it. A few are resentful of it. C’est la vie.

  105. Nick,

    Thanks… If you are attacking… Don’t…. If you’re being attacked…. Defend but…. Don’t make it personal…..state your case and move on….

  106. There is no conflict of interest. The beef is between you and the rules, which you’ve been told to adhere to by our host and yet persistently refuse to comply. Your mistake is in thinking this is personal, nick. That is probably because for you, it is. As I’ve said previously, your choice in targets is irrelevant. You have no demonstrated ability for detachment. I, on the other hand, do and in spades. That you repeatedly attack people and then act like a victim when they respond is simply more evidence of your pattern of bad behavior. What you should know is this: had you not been attacking a GBs but a garden variety poster, you’d have likely been banned long ago for your shenanigans.

    You also miss the point of this exercise.

    We have the tools to force your compliance with the rules. You’ve been shown the futility of your tactic, you’ve been asked to stop, you’ve even been told to stop by our host. You refused to comply. While we exercise restraint, you responded with such warnings with open defiance apparently under the misguided impression your actions would not have eventual consequence. And just like a bully poking someone in the chest, you seem shocked that despite many warnings to stop, when the person you are poking elects to grab your finger and bend it into an unnatural and painful position (even though they could break it should they so chose). A very minimal amount of force was used to prove the point about the rules around here being enforced although they may be few. Whether you choose to learn from this lesson or not is up to you.

    The lesson you should take away is that it is easier to simply follow the rules than to risk escalation to the point where you do actually get banned.

    I understand that you don’t like me (or Mike), but what you fail to understand is that neither of us care. What we do care about is the forum. The forum has just a few rules. You should learn to follow them if you wish to be a member of this community.

  107. I have NEVER..NEVER been told directly by Mr. Turley to adhere to the “rules.” Mr. Turley asked that the volume be turned down on a thread in which SEVERAL people, including you and me, were going toe to toe. I apologized because I accepted my complicity. The fact that you didn’t says nothing about me and everything about you. It’s on the record. That’s what I love about this type of forum. And of course, unless you’re a mind reader you have NO IDEA to whom Mr. Turley was speaking.

    Now, why don’t you get back to being a Guest Blogger instead of playing Barney Fife. This is boring to me and everyone else. Write a column, do something productive. Basta!

  108. AY, You would be a good arbiter. I listen to people I respect and try my best to blow off idiots. But I’m human and flawed. If you see me getting too heated, tell me. SWM, mespo, OS, and maybe others I respect have. And I have always thanked them and taken their advice.

  109. Or you could realize you have no say over what goes on here vis a vis blog administration and simply follow the rules, nick.

    Or you can continue on the path you’re currently on.

    Like I’ve said dozens of times, I know how this story ends.

  110. I dont know, if Nick insulted me, I would just insult him back and move on. Or better yet I would ignore it and move on figuring he doesnt know me in this very one dimensional world.

  111. Bron,

    Not the point. There is a difference between insult and ad hominem attacks, not the least of which is that the later is impermissible. Perhaps you missed the same point nick keeps missing: to be insulted, the insulted must care what the insulter thinks. In this instance, I don’t and neither does Mike. The issue isn’t insult. Nor is the issue disagreement. The issue is not following the few rules we have in this forum, something you and the vast majority of posters have no issue with doing. nick, on the other hand, has a confessed self-control problem with the issue of ad hominem attacks. That’s the sole issue – his inability and/or unwillingness to follow the rules that bind this community. You yourself ran afoul of the rules in the past, but you reformed and made amends for your behavior and were allowed back in to the community. Since then, you’ve become a rarely agreed with but nonetheless valued member of the community. Nothing is being asked of nick that is/was not asked of you or indeed anyone else as part of participation.

  112. Nick:

    It might be beneficial to recognize that others hold absolute authority over whom to permit to post on this blog and that the decision to ban or permit someone can be binary in degree. The warnings you have been made aware of should not be considered to be a sign of granting permission to engage in the actions that the warnings are based upon. They are not conveying that you or any of us have have a right to any due process or ownership right of the blog. They are essentially gifts to provide you with an opportunity for you to change your approach here. And like any gift it can be cancelled at any time. It should be considered fortunate that any person gets the leeway they might.

    It is also unwise to upset the persons who hold the keys because it can risk being not let in.

  113. Darren,

    I totally disagree… You may see it that way… But I disagree… Jonathan has the sole authority to decide who to ban or bar…. If this rule has changed then we need a list of rules posted…. I am for that anyways… One of the nice things about this blog is the freedom if expression even if you disagree with the other poster….

    I’ll say this… Too many chefs screw the stew…

  114. AY,

    And the ultimate decision to ban still rests where it has always rested. Nobody has been banned. Yet. Whether somebody is or not remains to be seen and is based on their behavior. What just happened was a more severe warning about breaking the rules having eventual consequences, nothing more, nothing less.

  115. nick,
    Professor Turley seldom comments or intervenes. However, when he invites any person to be a front page writer, aka guest blogger, he explains the rules in some detail. He doesn’t explain them to everyone who logs on and wants his personal attention. Not going to happen except in the rarest of occasions.

    Gene, Mike and others have explained what you are doing wrong. They know the rules as set forth by Professor Turley. You can take that for what it’s worth, but my suggestion is that you pay attention to the advice. You are not the first person to receive these admonitions, and will not be the last. Some changed their style and are still here. Others….well, we don’t see them around any more.

    Lively debate is fine. Disagreements are fine as long it is substantive and not personal. Personal insults and starting pie fights violate the basic DBAD rule.

  116. Ay:

    I agree that it is good to have the rules that you have spoken of. But what I was trying to convey that this is a person’s web log and the rules and the posts are at the pleasure of those who own the blog. That is why one has to be careful about upsetting the host.

  117. OS,
    I missed the class that explained the DBAD rule. What is that? :)
    If we are going to start any pie fights, can we make them banana cream?

  118. Darren, I have always had problems w/ unjust authority. Most consider that a strength. Have I ever offended you? I think not. What is being lost here is there are too prissy people who see themselves as elevated. I just take them down a peg or two once in awhile. I poke when I see fit and they’re whining about it like middle school girls. Do you see anyone else here complaining about what I’ve done to THEM? I know you like these two, I respect that. We don’t have a beef, let’s just leave it @ that.

  119. OS, I don’t buy the “secret rules” and being an honorable person how could you expect me to? As stated previously, I have heeded your advice as well as others. Your buddy flat assed lied about what he deleted yesterday. I called him on that and his non response is tantamount to an admission of guilt. Neither of your buddies have the moral authority to lead. I will not heed their advice until they show the character leaders must have, like the other Guest Bloggers show daily. Until that time they can kiss my ass right downtown. I think that’s pretty clear. It was personal between myself and Gene yesterday and he should have recused himself from being judge, jury and executioner. That’s the moral authority of which I speak.

  120. Bron, They can’t move on because in spite of all their professing, they are obsessed w/ me. They write multi paragraph screeds about me. It’s Fatal Attraction like. I hope I don’t find a boiling rabbit in my kitchen.

  121. Oh, and all of these comments I just wrote would have been deleted yesterday. What’s changed??

  122. That depends entirely upon your actions going forward, nick. Should this become an escalated matter involving banning, your open recalcitrance to the rules of this community in the face of multiple warnings of compliance failure will be part of the pattern evidence presented against you.

    Again, if you don’t like how this blog is administered, your participation here is entirely voluntary. You seem to persist in thinking this is personal when from my side it isn’t. I don’t care what you think of me or Mike personally. That’s irrelevant. It’s about you breaking the rules. Our rules are not secret. You’ve been informed of them – and you violations thereon – on numerous occasions. That you failed to heed those warnings and now don’t like the consequences is entirely your fault.

    I could have simply left you in moderation and not approved any of your comments. I could have left you in moderation until we’d escalated and resolved the issue of your behavior with our host. I could have done a lot more than I did. Instead, I gave you a rap on the knuckles and released you back into the wild.

    Considering your repeatedly bad behavior and your bad attitude about the rules, your treatment has been both fair and equitable.

    Yet you still refuse to learn the lesson.


    Interesting in that it is further evidence of an uncontrollable pathology that is.

    Please, do continue.

    I’d offer you a shovel, but you seem to be digging in just fine by yourself.

  123. Also, you should know you are the most proliferate commentator over the last sample space WP uses to track that data.

    Hardly the sign of oppression. As I said, every comment you made that wasn’t a personal attack was approved. That in your state of mind you might not be able to differentiate between ad hominem attack and not is another issue. Anosongosia can be a terrible thing.

  124. I’m calling you a liar. You deleted comments where I merely pointed out that you were moderating and deleting me. You also, quite curiously, deleted questions about race relations and felony laws that were in no way a personal attack, merely questions like the many you deemed appropriate and posted. I would like to see a list of the “secret rules”, not from you, but from someone w/ integrity. A simple and righteous request. Could someone other than this dissembler provide a list. I doubt it’s long. Most blogs have published rules of conduct. Obviously, w/ an illegitimate star chamber member dispensing wild west justice, its long overdue here. I know our “judge” has certainly broken some of these rules on numerous occasions. But, then he be the judge, jury and executioner…err deleter.

  125. The reason you’re not “moderating” and “deleting” is almost certainly of shame for your actions yesterday. I’ve been MUCH tougher today than yesterday. What’s your explanation?

  126. Nick

    My recommendation was not the result of having a beef with you, which is not the case at all. I was only offering a suggestion to you to try to show you the gravity of what what could happen in that I didn’t want to see you be made absent here.

    An analogy is to ask you not to shoot the bee’s nest, it’s not because I dislike you it is just to prevent you from being stun. I am not blaming the bees either. It is just their nature when they are attacked for someone breaking their rules by shooting their nest.

  127. Nick,

    If you have questions …. As has been suggested…. Ask a higher authority…. Which has also been suggested….

  128. I don’t care what you think I am, nick.

    The salient issue is you cannot refrain from gratuitous ad hominem attacks in contravention of the civility rule.

    The other two rules you’ve also already been informed of. You cannot impersonate other posters. You cannot reveal personal information about other posters absent consent. Violating those two rules go straight to ban.

  129. “The reason you’re not “moderating” and “deleting” is almost certainly of shame for your actions yesterday.”

    No. I said you were going to be under moderation yesterday because your refusal to follow the rules and you were. From 8:30 AM to 8:30 PM. And the test for shame is given what I know now, would I take the same action again. Since the answer is an unhesitating “yes”, fail on the shaming issue.

    “I’ve been MUCH tougher today than yesterday. What’s your explanation?”

    I never stand in the way of someone making a mistake . . . especially when they’ve been warned multiple times that they are making a mistake.

  130. Then it’s quite obvious you’ll end up pushing this matter until you succeed in getting banned.


  131. nick:

    boiling rabbit can be used to make hasenpfeffer:

    Once made, hasenpfeffer lasts a week in the fridge.

    Serves 4 to 6.

    Prep Time: 2 days marinating time

    Cook Time: 3 hours, although shorter with domestic rabbits

    •1 cup water
    •1 cup red wine
    •1 cup red wine vinegar
    •1 tablespoon salt
    •2 tablespoons chopped rosemary
    •1 tablespoon juniper berries, crushed
    •1 tablespoon crack black peppercorns
    •3 bay leaves
    •4 cloves
    •1 teaspoon dried thyme
    •2 green onions, chopped

    •1 jackrabbit, snowshoe hare or domestic rabbit, or 2 cottontails or squirrels
    •4 tablespoons unsalted butter
    •Flour for dredging
    •2 to 3 cups chopped onion
    •1/4 cup sour cream

    •1 cup milk (whole or 2%)
    •1 teaspoon salt
    •6 tablespoons semolina flour (or use farina or Cream of Wheat)
    •2 tablespoons unsalted butter
    •1 egg, lightly beaten
    •1/2 to 1 teaspoon ground nutmeg


    1.Bring all the ingredients for the marinade to a boil, then let cool to room temperature. While the marinade is cooling, cut up a hare into serving pieces. Find a covered container (plastic, ceramic, glass) just about large enough to hold the cut-up hare and put the meat inside. Cover with the cooled marinade. If you have leftover marinade, put that into a different container. Put everything in the refrigerator and let it sit at least 8 hours, but 2 days is better.
    2.When you are ready to make the hasenpfeffer, remove the hare from the marinade and pat it dry with paper towels. Save the marinade. Heat the butter in a Dutch oven or other large, heavy pot. Dredge the hare in the flour and brown well on all sides in the butter. Do this over medium to medium-high heat so the butter does not burn. Remove the hare pieces as they brown and set aside.
    3.As the hare is browning, preheat the oven to 325°F and strain the marinade into a bowl. Add any excess marinade to the bowl.
    4.Once you’ve browned the hare, add the onion and stir to coat with the butter. If there is not much butter in the pot left, add another tablespoon or two. Cook the onions over medium-high heat until they are soft and a little brown on the edges. Sprinkle salt over them as they cook.
    5.Return the hare to the pot and add the strained marinade. Bring to a simmer, cover and put into the oven. Cook at a gentle simmer until the meat wants to fall off the bones: This will take 2 to 4 hours for a wild hare, or between 90 minutes and 2 hours for a domesticated rabbit. To finish the hasenpfeffer, remove it from the oven and uncover the pot. Spoon off about a cup of the sauce and put it into a bowl. Add the sour cream to the bowl and mix to combine. Return the mixture to the pot and swirl it around to combine.

  132. Darren, Thanks for your response. Let me give an anecdote that is not “possibly false” it is true, as is everything I say. When my kids were young my son and a friend came in the house w/ wasp stings. I tended to them and then went out to see where the hive was. It was a ground nest of wasps, near our garden. I got a can of gas and burned the hole. Many scattered but certainly some were killed. A few hours later they were again en masse swarming around the ground nest. I then called an exterminator guy I know. I told him I had a ground nest and they were swarming. He asked, “Nick. you didn’t try to burn the f@ckers out, did ya’?” To which I meekly replied, “Yes, I did.” He said, “Well, you maybe killed 10% but you really pissed off the other 90%. “I’ll come out this evening when they’re back in the nest and bomb them w/ arsenic.”

    Darren, You are also someone I respect and will accept advice. The absolute horseshit which occurred yesterday is too fresh,,the wasps are still pissed and swarming. I will calm down. Hopefully nobody hits me w/ an arsenic bomb in the interim. I’ve seen a lot of good people bullied and run out of here. That won’t happen w/ me. Most of the days are good. I just had an agita producing one. I’ll shake it off and appreciate good guys like you helping out.

  133. Bron, I will use this recipe. No one in my family will eat tripe, lamb[WTF?] or rabbit. I ate hassenfeffer whenever I went to the many German restaurants in Chicago when we lived there. Ironically, there aren’t many here in Wisconsin, except in Milwaukee. I know a butcher that sells raised rabbits. I make a Dago version but like the Kraut one better. My wife leaves town on Wed, and I see it on the menu. Thanks for taking the time to type it out.

  134. You mistakenly attribute anger where this is none, nick. I’m incredibly slow to anger. Just so, the wasps weren’t angry either. They were wasps doing what come naturally when you attacked them. If you didn’t like the result of your actions, stop making them. I can’t state it any simpler than you reap what you sow. You violate the rules of this forum? Then you will face consequences. That your choice of violating the rules is to perpetually engage in gratuitous ad hominem attacks against two guest bloggers is ultimately immaterial. What is material is your unwillingness/inability to follow the few rules we do have.

    Believe it or not, I’m trying to get you to take a path that doesn’t end in your getting banned. We’ve only ever had to ban one person here. I’d really prefer it stays that way. But if you can’t function within the parameters of the community? In the end, you have no one to blame but yourself if you don’t like the consequences.

  135. Show me where you said from 8:30a-8:30p!! Are there secret sentences along w/ the secret. Give it up, man. We’re having nice conversations about food, bees, etc. Got any good recipes, I know you like to cook.

  136. I said “Enjoy being in moderation today.” Would you have preferred I chose a 24 hour day over a 12 hour day? I could have.

    And yes, I have lots of good recipes.

    Once you learn to act civilly, I might even share some.

  137. Bron,

    I was discussing rabbit with a friend of mine the other day and he steadfastly refused to try it based on the “cute factor”. I tried to tell him that once he considered the “tasty factor” that the cute would cease to be an issue, but some people just aren’t adventurous eaters. Too bad. Rabbit is awesome. I’m not crazy about squirrel though. It’s edible in a pinch, but I’ll go out of my way to eat rabbit.

  138. I’m always civil, just one tough mofo. Plus you’re a Limey, what the hell was I thinking of asking for a recipe. Never mind. I’ll just dive into a dumpster if I want Limey food.

  139. No, you’re not. That’s the point.

    Actually, I’m Scots-Irish and I was taught to cook by American southerners, Sicilians and the French. No steak and kidney pie here. Although I will say some English food gets a bad rap. Yorkshire Pudding is awesome.

  140. Be back at Scrabble tomorrow … this was an early Father’s Day weekend due to all the grandkids’ travel plans … busy, busy

  141. FWIW: If the threshold for what constitutes an actionable ad hominem posting has changed then the Professor needs to publish that new information; Nick’s postings did not rise to the level previously employed on this blawg as administered by the Professor.

    Rafflaw, in the last week I have been dreaming- actually dreaming, about making and eating banana cream pie and banana pudding. I have been working, in my dreams, on solving the problem of such pies and puddings ‘weeping’. I have come up with using a nice spiced-rum banana’s foster layer on top of the pudding for the banana layer. I’ve put the constituants on my shopping list. It will be delicious or awful.:-)

  142. rabbit is also very healthy if you want to lose weight. learned in wilderness survival you can’t live off rabbit. not enough calories. really good eating though.
    before my daughter was born i would cook a few for easter supper.

  143. LK,

    You can’t have banana pudding fights as easily. People get hurt if you leave it in the bowl. However, if your issue is weeping meringue, try adding a pinch of Cream of Tartar to it. Unless you’ve got crazy humidity issues, that should clear up the problem.

    And FWIW: It wasn’t just one posting but a pattern of postings (many if not most of which do indeed rise to the threshold). If you are thinking of physical threats, that’s a separate issue from ad hominem attacks.

  144. LK,

    Also, in thinking of your bananas foster idea, have you considered using just a dark rum instead of a spiced rum? It sounds like a really interesting idea, but the spices in the rum might fight with the vanilla in the pudding. Just a thought from a southerner who has eaten a lot of both banana pudding and bananas foster.

  145. Gene, The interface between the bananas and pudding weeps. In pudding, if you are a classic vanilla wafer and bananas and pudding fan, the wafers soak up the liquid and you have soft cookies. In a pie it doesn’t work out so well. Yea, I’ll have to think about the spice, Maybe I’ll just drink my spiced rum (which I already have) and do a non-alcoholic banana’s foster.😉

  146. Hmmm. Not sure what to do about weeping at the b/p interface. I’ll ask my mom if she knows a trick. She’s the family banana pudding expert so she might know a trick for pies.

  147. As I wrote upthread before the fifth comment on this thread was an attack by Nick on Gene, out of nowhere. Were this a single incident then so what. It is not a single incident but has occurred on every thread that Nick comments on. If I comment on a thread I read every comment before and after my comment(s). I have seen Nick play this same tired game again and again. The record shows it and anyone can check it by choosing any thread where Nick has commented. I have directly pointed out this pattern to Nick, but you will also note that he never responds directly to any specific charge made against him. I personally have tried ignoring him with the hope he would get the message, he hasn’t and you just have to read his words abobe that he dislikes both me and Gene.

    There is one other thing to consider and thst is how many times has Nick ever had a disussion about a blog, or added anything to the dialogue? Now that in itself is fine, but when the written record shows just attacks and discussion interuption, with admitted dislike fueling ad hominem attacks, what’s his point?

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