-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger
George Nathaniel III, a pastor of a church in Minneapolis and school bus driver in Burnsville, Minnesota, was terminated from his school bus driving job. Nathaniel said: “To fire a bus driver for praying for the safety of the children” is not right. It is wrong to fire someone for praying for the safety of the children, but Nathaniel is misrepresenting the facts to portray himself as a victim of the War on Christianity.
Nathaniel related a typical bus ride: “We start out with a song,” he said. “Then each person will pray if they want to pray. If they don’t want to pray, they don’t have to pray.” Nathaniel would lead the prayer.
The voluntary nature of the prayer has been addressed by the Supreme Court in Engel v. Vitale (1962). J. Black, wrote in the 6-1 opinion:
Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observance on the part of the students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause …
In his concurrence in Vitale, J. Douglas cited McGowan v. Maryland (1961), where J. Warren wrote: “The First Amendment commands government to have no interest in theology or ritual,” and that on “matters of this kind government must be neutral.” J. Douglas also noted:
The First Amendment leaves the Government in a position not of hostility to religion, but of neutrality.
Ruth Dunn, communications director for the Burnsville-Eagan-Savage School District, said, “We do consider the school bus to be an extension of the school day when it pertains to student behavior and support.”
Teresa Nelson, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota, noted that the bus driver has a “captive audience of kids on a school bus” and that Nathaniel’s actions would violate the Establishment Clause.
Operating a school bus should occupy the driver’s complete attention. A momentary lapse could be disastrous. Leading singing and prayers would distract even the most competent driver.
As Jeffrey Shulman notes: “at common law the parent had a “sacred right” to the custody of his or her child, that the parent’s right to control the upbringing of the child was almost absolute.” Nathaniel, in leading the children in prayer, had usurped their parent’s authority.
Nathaniel just couldn’t resist. He had a captive audience of children who were too young to object and lacked the education to offer reasoned counterarguments to his faith claims. If religious faith was anything more that imaginary, its adherents wouldn’t need to pick on the most gullible members of society.
“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.” (Thomas Paine)
H/T: Austin Cline, Laurie Blake and Erin Adler, CBS Minnesota, Ed Brayton.
DavidM:
you make a valid point, the government is discriminating based on religion. And using its full force to do so when it fires an individual for expressing himself in a manner they dont like.
Establishement of a national religion is a far cry from praying on a school bus.
Indoctrination of ones religion onto children of others? Seriously this guy was usurping the parents rights and he had a captive audience of children who probably were scared or coerced into joining in. Really, as a parent I would be furious. How dare he? He dares because he feels he has a Devine Imperative, more Fundamentalist creep into our society.
Elaine:
“A tone of sarcasm? Just a bit. School bus drivers are not trained or qualified to teach children.”
Compared to some of the public school teachers I have had and my children have had, I would say they would be better.
Christians need to get with the multi-cultural program and put the manger scene in the public square right next to EID and Diwali. Then there is no support for one religion over another.
I say let all religions advocate in the public square as long as we dont have a religion of state.
Take that to the Supreme Court, sue the atheists for establishing atheism as the state religion. And please, atheists, some of them anyway are every bit as obnoxious as any evangelical I have ever met. Evangelical Atheists is what I call them.
Lets take the Stars of David and Crosses out of our national cemeteries; if you cant have a Jewish and Christian display in the public square then you cant have them on federal land.
davidm,
“Actually, several are teaching here, not just expressing opinion, but your sensitivity to the distinction between teaching and discussion makes me wonder if you are part of a religion that does not believe women should teach men. Are you?”
That makes no sense. Can you expound upon that comment in four thousand words…or fewer?
BTW, who are those commenting here who are “teaching” on this thread?
Am I to assume that you perceive no distinction between the words teach and discuss?
davidm,
A tone of sarcasm? Just a bit. School bus drivers are not trained or qualified to teach children. Nor do they have the authority to do so from the school districts where they work. Children should not be the unwilling/unwitting subjects of religious indoctrination by anyone who works for a public school–especially a classroom teacher. It’s abusing one’s role as an educator.
David gives us all the power with “This is the kind of idiocy that results from the philosophy being taught in this forum.”
I am not a teacher, nor is it my desire to be your mentor. You grant me this power to teach philosophy so you can then yank it away as some sort of honor badge in some spiritual epic struggle.
But you make it all up. As you go along, by the look of it.
Do you have any details about the Pensacola case or are we all to just stand around breathless at your say-so?
Not taking any students today. sorry.
DavidM:
what about the childrens rights? I would not mind if my son or daughter participated in a prayer on a school bus but other parents might not like it. What about Baptist vs Catholic vs Methodist vs Presbyterian?
Catholics dont even think Mormon is a true religion and will not accept LDS sacrements.
I wouldnt fire the guy but isnt it better to just keep religion out of the work place? I would keep politics out of the work place for the same reason. Too many feathers could get ruffled the wrong way.
Bron wrote: “I wouldnt fire the guy but isnt it better to just keep religion out of the work place?”
This is the attitude of most, I think. Keep a low profile. However, I think it is a slippery slope. I just draw my line of tolerance in a different place from the others here who seem bent on creating a society that is irreligious. Schools are going to indoctrinate children. There is no way around that. If we indoctrinate them to think faith is foolish or meant to be in secret only, that has consequences for all of society that in my opinion lead to situations like Columbine where a student wears a shirt proclaiming Natural Selection while he shoots everyone he sees.
While public schools should not indoctrinate students into following a particular religion, they should not censor employees in such a way that the person is prohibited from free forms of expression like prayer. Teachers are role models, and if faith is part of what makes them who they are, it should not be forced into hiding by government. People should be free to be who they are.
In order to march forward in ’14 & ’16 with the War on Christianity, republicans must create the setting.
This pastor got the memo and sacrificed his low paying school bus driver job for the greater good which is the election of republicans which means tapping into that right wing anger … riling them up.
Works every time and we’re going to see a lot more of it ’cause ya gotta keep the base incensed!
nick spinelli 1, November 16, 2013 at 1:21 pm
James, I agree this guy was wrong. I’m merely fascinated @ the passion. The question was asked if there are “other prayer leading” bus drivers?”
*****
Maybe you missed the comment Dredd made before I wrote that:
Dredd 1, November 16, 2013 at 12:37 pm
“Guess why none of the other bus drivers were fired for the infraction.’
*****
I wanted to know if there were other bus drivers who had done the same thing as George Nathaniel. Dredd’s comment seemed to imply that.
NIck, I would reserve WTF for being able to get it right at this exceedingly micro-level, but cannot seem to do so when it matters on even a slightly grander scale. It leaves us with only small potatoes to discuss.
davidm,
We’re not teaching anything. We’re having a discussion. We’re expressing our opinions. We don’t all have the same viewpoint on issues. That’s what pluralism is all about.
Elaine M wrote: “We’re not teaching anything. We’re having a discussion.”
Actually, several are teaching here, not just expressing opinion, but your sensitivity to the distinction between teaching and discussion makes me wonder if you are part of a religion that does not believe women should teach men. Are you?
James, I agree this guy was wrong. I’m merely fascinated @ the passion. The question was asked if there are “other prayer leading” bus drivers?” It’s like the McCarthy witch hunt for Commies in the State Dept. It’s overkill, dude. The man was warned, he was fired. End of story. He was trying to get publicity, making himself a martyr for people like himself. It was Ali “Rope a dope.” People of his mindset see him as a martyr. Folks of your mindset see this as a major victory for the Constitution, and most folks say WTF? I’m saying WTF?
“The man was warned, he was fired. End of story. He was trying to get publicity, making himself a martyr for people like himself. It was Ali “Rope a dope.” People of his mindset see him as a martyr. Folks of your mindset see this as a major victory for the Constitution, and most folks say WTF? I’m saying WTF?”
And I suppose Nal never should have written this inconsequential blog, or that bored people need not continue to make copious comments?
David gets it wrong immediately with “When government forbids people to pray, it is a form of oppression.”
No one said this bus driver could not pray. He is free to pray every minute he drives that bus and no one would be the wiser, unless he’s a drop to the knees type. Then we have a problem while driving a bus.
Leading children in prayer in public school is not permitted. You do not have to like it. This is not going to change in your lifetime.
Your comparison of this situation to slavery is simply you whining about it. It has zero merit, and you strain credibility with actual descendants of slavery by even trying. I suppose next you’ll be going full-bore nazi.
You said the “man was being himself.” No judge is going to buy that excuse, David. You simply want permission to bring your magic-thinking into our shared public square without consequence, even if it means putting children in danger, all under the threadbare disguise of “we should all be more tolerant.”
Tolerant of your hate, you mean.
davidm,
Firing IS warranted when your employer tells you to stop doing something on the job–and you refuse to stop doing it.
*****
“Attitudes like these express here contribute to the failure of a pluralism.”
Right! Kids on the school bus should be required to listen to a bus driver leading children in prayer for the sake of “pluralism.” In that case, we should have kids on the school bus listen to lesbian and gay bus drivers explaining why they should be accorded equal rights…and to atheist bus drivers telling children there is no God.
Elaine M wrote: “In that case, we should have kids on the school bus listen to lesbian and gay bus drivers explaining why they should be accorded equal rights…and to atheist bus drivers telling children there is no God.”
Now you are catching on, but somehow I detect a tone of sarcasm here.
I would be against a bus driver being fired for either of these situations.
By the way, one of my children had an atheist school teacher who always ranted about how there is no God and how stupid faith was. I welcomed it because it caused a lot of discussion and bonding with my daughter. She would come home excited to tell me, “you won’t believe what Mr. Wells said in class today.” She would proceed to tell me and also relay how the other students reacted to it. Even though he was on the wrong side of logic, it made for a more passionate form of education for my child. It caused her to ask more questions about what I believe and why I believe it, which led her to consider such matters in her own mind for herself.
Nick, so long as the lunch lady, janitor, and crossing guard are not leading children in prayer, your claims of a “witch hunt” seem misplaced. Prayer is not the issue. Leading children in prayer at the expense of the work that was hired is another matter. It is troubling that a bus driver would let himself be so distracted. One hopes the roads were not icy.
David suggests, “Tolerance of others is what is needed here.”
Coming from you, this statement has zero credibility. Your attacks are virtually non-stop.
The driver was warned. He had every opportunity to recognize his position within the school district. He chose not to. A slave would not be given that choice. The district can only be so tolerant of stubborn men who distract themselves from the job they were hired to do while endangering children in the process.
I can’t help you with your pluralism problem, as this seems like another thing you have invented for yourself to have.
I think I heard the lunch lady saying Grace.
Nick Spinelli wrote: “I think I heard the lunch lady saying Grace.”
In Pensacola, Florida, the principal of Pace High School, Frank Lay, asked athletic director Robert Freeman to say grace at a luncheon for football boosters. That landed them both in federal court facing criminal charges. This is the kind of idiocy that results from the philosophy being taught in this forum.
What about crossing guards?
Are there janitors praying?