-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger
George Nathaniel III, a pastor of a church in Minneapolis and school bus driver in Burnsville, Minnesota, was terminated from his school bus driving job. Nathaniel said: “To fire a bus driver for praying for the safety of the children” is not right. It is wrong to fire someone for praying for the safety of the children, but Nathaniel is misrepresenting the facts to portray himself as a victim of the War on Christianity.
Nathaniel related a typical bus ride: “We start out with a song,” he said. “Then each person will pray if they want to pray. If they don’t want to pray, they don’t have to pray.” Nathaniel would lead the prayer.
The voluntary nature of the prayer has been addressed by the Supreme Court in Engel v. Vitale (1962). J. Black, wrote in the 6-1 opinion:
Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observance on the part of the students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause …
In his concurrence in Vitale, J. Douglas cited McGowan v. Maryland (1961), where J. Warren wrote: “The First Amendment commands government to have no interest in theology or ritual,” and that on “matters of this kind government must be neutral.” J. Douglas also noted:
The First Amendment leaves the Government in a position not of hostility to religion, but of neutrality.
Ruth Dunn, communications director for the Burnsville-Eagan-Savage School District, said, “We do consider the school bus to be an extension of the school day when it pertains to student behavior and support.”
Teresa Nelson, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota, noted that the bus driver has a “captive audience of kids on a school bus” and that Nathaniel’s actions would violate the Establishment Clause.
Operating a school bus should occupy the driver’s complete attention. A momentary lapse could be disastrous. Leading singing and prayers would distract even the most competent driver.
As Jeffrey Shulman notes: “at common law the parent had a “sacred right” to the custody of his or her child, that the parent’s right to control the upbringing of the child was almost absolute.” Nathaniel, in leading the children in prayer, had usurped their parent’s authority.
Nathaniel just couldn’t resist. He had a captive audience of children who were too young to object and lacked the education to offer reasoned counterarguments to his faith claims. If religious faith was anything more that imaginary, its adherents wouldn’t need to pick on the most gullible members of society.
“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.” (Thomas Paine)
H/T: Austin Cline, Laurie Blake and Erin Adler, CBS Minnesota, Ed Brayton.
Annie:
I am not particularly religious. So if I am middle class and paying 15-30K in taxes of all kinds to support various government programs, where is the money for private schools going to come from?
So why dont you send your children to a private secular school? Religious people pay taxes to support public schools, or is it only a one way street?
Bron
1, November 20, 2013 at 8:23 pm
Annie:
My children were subjected to all kinds of things in the public schools with which I disagreed, I didnt have any say in how they were taught.
*****
What were the “all kinds of things” that your children were subjected to that you disagreed with? If you objected to those things, did you make complaints to the school officials?
gbk:
Yes I could have. But public school should be inclusive.
Annie,
Maybe DavidM would be comfortable….with the Santeria doing a chicken sacrifice on the bus….. You know not all fried chicken starts out at a KFC factory….. Lol….
Presicely what gbk said. YOU and your children had a choice, that’s what religious private schools are for, or homeschooling. My children have the right to not be taught a spiritual subject in a secular school.
“or even their teachers.”
Should be:
“or even worked with their teachers.”
Bron,
“. . . I didnt have any say in how they were taught.”
Sure you did, Bron. You could have enrolled them in a private school, or homeskulled them. You could have also worked with, or sat on, the local school board, or even their teachers.
Your binary perspective cripples you.
Annie:
My children were subjected to all kinds of things in the public schools with which I disagreed, I didnt have any say in how they were taught.
I fundamentally disagree with John Dewey, but do I get a say in that? Not hardly.
DavidM,
“I guess I’m posting too much.”
No; but your posts don’t vary in content and are much too verbose given this. JMHO.
I don’t know David, call me cynical but I have a sneaking suspicion that once that door is opened, the school board would quickly find a way to include the religion of their choice amd exclude others. If it’s a conservative area, Christianity and its sects may be the only acceptable relgion to be on the curriculum. No thank you. If I want my child taught some religion, it’s my responsibility to see that it happens without subjecting others to my personal choice.
I guess I’m posting too much. My last reply to Elaine got snagged by WordPress.
To quote Forrest Gump, “His butt-ocks?”
Were the complaints instigated from the ACLU on their mission to purge religious people from positions of influence in government?
=========================================================
read this line first. that tells where everything else he writes comes from.
Pete wrote: “that tells where everything else he writes comes from.”
Yeah, I write from experience. I challenge you to study the case I mentioned in Santa Rosa County Florida. What the ACLU did there is despicable. You can start your study here:
https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/aclu-files-lawsuit-protect-religious-freedom-florida-high-school-students
Nest, search for more information and follow the money paid to the ACLU. This kind of activism is big business for these attorneys.
Eventually this debacle led the Florida legislature to create a law to protect citizens from overprotective school boards cowering to the ACLU fighting against Constitutional freedoms:
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?FileName=_h0031er.docx&DocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0031&Session=2010
It is ridiculous that States have to fight the ACLU to protect citizens brought to criminal court for exercising their Constitutionally protected rights.
davidm,
You are to be the arbiter of which complaints should be taken into consideration? If even one set of parents complained, it would mean a child was troubled by what was happening on the school bus rides. That’s reason enough to address the issue–which the school district did. BTW, I assume the ACLU heard about the prayerful pastor because someone was concerned about what was going on and informed the organization about it.
Elaine M wrote: “BTW, I assume the ACLU heard about the prayerful pastor because someone was concerned about what was going on and informed the organization about it.”
LOL. How noble. I assume they get involved because of their atheistic activism, and any conflicts result in money for them when they win lawsuits. The case in Pensacola resulted in hundreds of thousands of dollars paid to the ACLU lawyers.
Complaints have to be weighed against the rights of citizens. Conflicts should be resolved through some kind of conflict resolution, not immediately firing the person exercising their Constitutionally protected rights.
David, seriously, do you really think that all religions should be taught in public school? How tolerant would Christian fundamentalists be if Wicca would be taught in school? Who decides which religions are legitimate and worth being included in the curricula?
Annie wrote: ” do you really think that all religions should be taught in public school? How tolerant would Christian fundamentalists be if Wicca would be taught in school? Who decides which religions are legitimate and worth being included in the curricula?”
Religion impacts life and society everywhere. Of course there should be some education about it. Wicca? Sure, of course. Paganism. You bet. Christianity? Yes. Islam? Definitely. The school board determines the curricula, probably based on how prevalent it is in present society and in history. I have met people in society who are all of these I just mentioned, so they should all be included.
Elaine M wrote: “You believe the word of the man who was fired–but not the word of his employer. There were complaints made about him.”
Why would you assume that I do not believe the employer? I believe the employer received complaints, but from who? Were the complaints instigated from the ACLU on their mission to purge religious people from positions of influence in government? How many complaints did they receive? Did any of these complainers attempt to talk to the bus driver about their concerns? What steps were taken to resolve the issue by bringing the bus driver and complainers together to talk?
The First Amendment is necessary because people complain about the speech or religious belief and practice of someone else. If there were never complaints, the First Amendment would be unnecessary. The existence of complaints is never a reason to censure someone in violation of their civil rights.
What if you worked someplace and were suddenly fired because atheists in the company filed complaints that you always prayed over your food in the lunch room and they were annoyed by it. Would the company be justified to fire you? I think not.
I cannot understand why David doesn’t grasp that religion has no place in public schools. We have the right to worship in our own way, but we don’t have the right to shove it down the throat of children on a school bus, who attend public school. Why should ones child be indoctrinated in a spiritual belief system in a secular school room? If it’s a religious school, then the parents have made the choice that they want their child taught religion, that’s a given. Why must fundamentalists/evangelicals impose their belief system on the unwilling, or underage children?
Annie wrote: “I cannot understand why David doesn’t grasp that religion has no place in public schools.”
It is about being tolerant of others. Do we teach children that they must be insulated from those who are different, or do we teach them that people in the world are all different from one another and we can embrace that diversity?
I do not believe the public schools should force religion or indoctrinate children into a particular religious belief system, but education is about exposing them to the variety of belief systems that exists in our culture. The way our culture is heading, only the atheistic perspective will be allowed in public education. That is bad education.
davidm,
You believe the word of the man who was fired–but not the word of his employer. There were complaints made about him. The pastor was given a number of warnings. He decided to ignore those warnings and to proceed as he had in the past. That’s called insubordination–which is most definitely grounds for termination of one’s employment.
david,
the law states that religion does not belong in public schools. It does not matter what your belief system is. That is exactly why the separation of church and state is necessary. The ACLU’s only purpose is to protect the constitution. Nothing else. Just because you want extra-constitutional or non-constitutional ideas to allowed is not the ACLU’s fault.
rafflaw wrote: “the law states that religion does not belong in public schools.”
What statutory law says this? There is some growing common law along these lines, but it is all being driven by culture over the last 50 years, and it violates one of the most ancient of our laws, the First Amendment.
rafflaw wrote: “Just because you want extra-constitutional or non-constitutional ideas to allowed is not the ACLU’s fault.”
I don’t want any extra-constitutional or non-constitutional ideas. I want the ACLU to interpret the First Amendment properly. They read the First Amendment as arguing for separation of church and state and as being about freedom FROM religion rather than freedom OF religion. In contrast, the First Amendment is about freedom of religion and about government not abridging religious expression.
Justice Potter sees the problem as stemming from the 1940 Supreme Court decision Cantwell v. Connecticut. He sees that combining the 14th Amendment interpretation there with the First Amendment as leading to a quagmire when combined with this one size fits all principle of separation of church and state. I’m inclined to agree.
Something is wrong when a legal group like the ACLU is using lawyers to strip people of religious liberties in the public sector. They have defended street preachers, as Nal has pointed out, but they are also very aggressive in removing religion from citizens who work for government. The ACLU does not want children in public schools seeing or hearing anything that has to do with religion.
Davidm : “These are not facts and they contradict the pastor’s characterization.”
I’ll bite.
What are the facts of the matter?
Who has souces of attributed detailed descriptions of what he did while driving the bus?
SlingTrebuchet wrote: “What are the facts of the matter? Who has souces of attributed detailed descriptions of what he did while driving the bus?”
I take first the facts given by George himself. Thus far, the only accuser I find is the ACLU and those pundits after the fact who support that philosophy.
There is a history of the ACLU targeting schools and threatening school districts with lawsuits if they do not purge religion from their schools. This is what happened in Pensacola, Florida several years ago when the Principal of Pace High School, Frank Lay, and athletic director Robert Freeman, faced criminal charges for praying over a meal at a boosters luncheon.
As best I can determine from the news report, George never heard a single complaint from a parent. He sought out parents to find out how they felt about it, and not one parent complained to him. The news reports seem to be cryptic about who filed the complaints. The assumption is normally that parents complained, but it is possible that the complaints came from the ACLU.
Following is a video where you can hear the bus driver in his own words, as well as hear from an ACLU attorney expressing her displeasure:
http://youtu.be/l4prkZKAHZA