We have long discussed the authoritarianism of Vladimir Putin whose history of beating protesters and striping away press freedom was put aside briefly for the Olympic ceremonies. However, Putin appeared to be eager to stop the love fest and turn on Ukraine. For history buffs, however, there is something a bit unnerving in Putin invading a neighboring country to protect Russian-speakers who are welcoming the troops as protectors. In case the Sudetenland does not come to mind, Poland is now mobilizing troops along the border to bring the historical analogy home for the rest of the world. While I believe that this crisis will be contained and Putin is not ready for a wider war, it is no accident that the blind nationalism and authoritarianism would lead to expansionism. Ukraine is not the Sudetenland and Poland is no longer using horses to repel tanks. Putin’s desire for control of this port and Lebensraum may not be as easy to hold as it was to take.
Putin has already secured approval from the Duma to send in troops into Ukraine — notably not just the Crimea but the whole country. (I will note that our own Congress — both Democrats and Republicans alike — showed no more independence in approving the Iraq invasions. Indeed, some like Hillary Clinton are now frontrunners for the next presidency). Hitler cited the close ties to the region of Czechoslovakia and their common language as an excuse for the invasion while German-speakers in the country welcomed the occupation. To make the analogy even more interesting, this is the anniversary of the German invasion of March 1939.
The analogy has not escaped Poland which released the following statement: “History shows – although I don’t want to use too many historical comparisons – that those who appease all the time in order to preserve peace usually only buy a little bit of time.”
Putin’s move is a clear violation of international law. There was no serious unrest and no attack on Russian forces or territory. There was not even a basis for a preemptive attack in anticipation of such violence.
The combination of the invitation for invasion in the Crimea with today’s march in Moscow calling for invasion seems a case of history repeating itself.
Of course, the jitters of the world are not helped by the fact that this is the location of the Crimean War between 1853-56 between Russia and France, Britain, the Ottoman Empire, and Sardinia. Russia lost.
I do not see a major role for the United States at the moment. Our involvement is only likely to trigger even greater insecurities that are so prominent in Russian history over its borders. While people in Congress are screaming to “get tough,” any direct intervention would be a domestic political move and serve no one’s interest in the Ukraine.
None of this history is likely to phase Putin who remains as he once was: a humorless, self-infatuated KGB Lt. Colonel. The one promising fact is the crashing of Russian stock. It will be interesting to watch, in a much more economically connected world, how the likely market pressures will affect Putin’s calculations.
Switch to present. I don’t think Putin has long range military action in mind. Stabilization will suit him better than trying to finance an invasion. He knows he can’t settle into another war right now anymore than we can. But I know he will not give up that base. He may be a brute, but he is smart. He may be able to keep the shooting from starting now, but time is not on his side. People will lash out, or another covert operation will start. He needs to get the table going and get that wrapped up and out. If he wants his place on the world stage, he can’t kill off the struggling Russian economy. If that retired CIA cold war analyst McGovern guy from the Democracy Now site was right, and the National Endowment for Democracy is now in charge of regime change, and claims they have $100 million and 63 more jobs to do–it looks like we may have a lot more to talk about coming up. Lots going on in Africa already.
slohrss, I read McGoverns article, and I KNOW that he is better informed than myself, and FAR better informed than the hawks who swallow the BS from the State Dept. I am rather disturbed that some folks here have such contempt for free elections. and are willing to toss them to support coups if it serves their political ends. I was also in Nicaragua during the period of the US assault on that freely elected government and I was astounded at how much freedom the opposition had in the middle of a war. If that had been the US, the opposition would have found themselves in prison or dead under similar circumstances. Then they had free elections again, and the Sandinistas lost. The only thing keeping Chammoro in power was the Sandinista army, since her allies would have overthrown her in a minute. Which is why she kept that Army with its officers intact.
I swear, the Neville Chamberlains in this country are going to be our undoing.This does not mean I favor war.
That makes no sense at all for a number of reasons. One is that Putin is not Hitler, and did not write a book and lead a movement of German aggression and nationalism. You may have heard of Mein Kampf which laid out Hitler’s policy. It was not just Chamberlain who was responsible for appeasement either. I remember the whole rational for US involvement in Vietnam was that we cannot appease “aggression” while the REAL aggressor was the US and Vietnam had an even better case that they had to fight for their independence against US aggression. So to say you are against war, only for self- defense is an oxymoron. The only way to ensure self defense IS WAR, and even Hitler used self defense as his excuse to invade Poland. I also get a laugh out of Poles who decry the Soviets entering the war on the side of Hitler and retaking land that the Poles stole from the Soviet Union in 1920 when Poland and the military dictatorship attacked the Soviet Union without warning or reason. They thought though that when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia that their alliance with Hitler was OK as they also attacked the remaining part of Czechoslovakia and stole a good chunk of that poor country for themselves. But when Hitler turned on Poland and did the same to them, NOW THAT WAS WRONG!
The real start of WWII was when Italy invaded Ethiopia which was a full member nation of the League of Nations. Britain, France, and all the other powers simply threw out the whole point of the League when they showed cowardice against even sanctions against Italy, much less send armies to stop it. Hitler observed their reaction, and a few months later invaded the Rhineland which was supposed to be demilitarized. The French and British did nothing. In fact, Hitler had given orders that his forces should RETREAT if they saw so much as a cop to oppose those forces. Churchill was a racist who hated black Africans, but he was appalled at the actions of the British government since he felt they HAD to act militarily against Italy to live up to the Leagues Charter.
I think you need to read a LOT more history of Europe, learn more about current events, and most importantly THINK! Don’t just swallow the government line and rational for irrational acts that do not comport with reality. Just how you can say that Russia invading the Ukraine will harm US security needs some rational basis, and you have provided NONE, other than to use clichés which make little sense.
Naturally, Darron has my thumb-up. I swear, the Neville Chamberlains in this country are going to be our undoing. This does not mean I favor war. It means I favor strong self defense.
That’s 2 votes, the Chicago way.
I vote Darren. And this is a pretty forceful comment by him. I think he’s a little pissed. Well, that’s good. Randy does have a healthy dose of self loathing of the US. Putin is ruthless and dangerous. The US is not always wrong.
I vote Darren. And this is a pretty forceful comment by him. I think he’s a little pissed. Well, that’s good. Randy does have a healthy dose of self loathing of the US. Putin is ruthless and dangerous.
RAndy:
Have you considered the notion that the reason NATO expanded was because those former Soviet Bloc Countries (namely: Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, and Croatia) actually CHOSE to join under their own volition?
Also, if the best you can offer about the Soviet Union was “The Soviet system was repressive, but it was that to ALL citizens” no wonder these nations went to the West instead of Russia.
Can the US do anything right in your mind?
Also you claim the US had no business in its hedgemony but then claim the Russians are justified in invading a nation due to a change in the leadership at the behest of the public only two days after this change. So people under former Soviet influence have no right to change that situation. Have you considered how well that worked out for the Czechs in 1968? Do you still think the Czechs were unjustified in throwing out the Soviets’ puppet government. Well since you say you know how things are in Soviet bloc countries on account of being in the Ukraine in the 80’s I can tell you from my travels to the Former East Germany, and the Czech republic you are hard pressed to find a great number of people in those nations that want to return to the old days of the Soviet Bloc. Those people did not have liberty then but they do now. Or was it better to be repressed equally. I can bet you they don’t.
And, Randy, where have you seen any attacks by the new Ukraine government against any ethnic or demographic residing in the Ukraine? I suppose you will then go on to say these benevolent invaders in the Crimea have prevented a Rwanda style cleansing but did you know there are other Russian ethnic groups in the rest of the Ukraine. Nobody has attacked them.
Your assertion the Russian government was justified in an invasion on the auspices of protecting the Russian speaking in Crimea is akin to Lithuanians invading Estonia for the same purposes or the Dutch invading Belgium to protect the Flemish community because of objection to the changes in goverment there.
Your assertions that the Soviet government being one of respecting the right of citizens (that is that they were repressed equally) because of Joseph Stalin’s birthplace. Remeber how Stalin’s regime was both directly and indirectly responsible for the murder of about 36 million souls? After all that you think it was the US strong arming those former Soviet bloc nations to join NATO? After all that history with the Russians why would any of them want to side with them again? The history is why so many of them wanted to join the West and to hopefully forstall another invasion by the Russians, just as we are now seeing in Crimea.
So go on with your beliefs and proffered expertise on the what the people of Ukraine want or how sinister their new goverment’s intentions are and how nefarious the United States is. You’re not going to convince me to subscribe to most of what you believe here and you can fault me for being an unwavering zealot who blindly supports the United States’ evil actions. The best thing that happened to those former Soviet Bloc nations was the collapse of the Soviet Union. They now have liberty and the ability to chose their own destiny and government, something they will never fullly have if dominated by Russia again.
You are free to offer your side as I am mine. We’ll leave it up to the readers to chose who they agree with.
Can the US do anything right in your mind?
Also you claim the US had no business in its hedgemony but then claim the Russians are justified in invading a nation due to a change in the leadership at the behest of the public only two days after this change
Darren you know that I have said on many occasions some things the US has done right, such as the First Gulf War. The public in the Ukraine had as much to do with the coup as the Iranians had to do with overthrowing Mossadegh. This was NOT the will of the public at all. It is too bad you have nothing but contempt for elections if you hold to that position.
As for your other statements they are absurd since I was ALL for Prague Spring, and I suggest you read Gorbachovs book on his reaction to that Brezhnev doctrine which was shared by Nixon and the US by the way. The US wanted Dubcek gone as much as the Soviets did. I even talked to a fellow GI when I went back to college who was in ASA and was accredited to the Warsaw Pact as a NATO observer to check on their troop dispositions. The US knew about the invasion before Dubcek did. I also read Dubcek’s biography which I think you should also read. I also was in Czechoslovakia in 1984 and drove around for a month in eastern Europe,except for East Germany.I just visited East Berlin at the time.
As for your assertion that the countries of Eastern Europe HAD to join NATO that is simply not true. They could simply do as Austria does and have nothing to do with NATO. You have to remember that Austria was under Soviet rule for a long time after WWII too. In fact a friend of mine wife was born and raised under Soviet rule in her part of Austria. Austria is not in danger of being swallowed up by the Russian bogeyman. I am sorry but I do not have the clairvoyant ability you seem to have to determine the will of the people sans elections, but who needs them anyway since you can KNOW their will without them. I was quite happy the Soviet regime was gone, but it did not become better, nor did the lives of those people get better in all respects. Also remember Finland which was under Soviet influence, but was a free country after they got rid of the Mannerheim dictatorship. They have existed quite nicely without joining NATO even during the Soviet era. So you posit a false choice to join either NATO or Russia.
I suggest also you look at the political situation in Hungary now, with an outright fascist regime there. They are now back to their old tricks of going after the few remaining Jews, and another friend of mines brother is married to a Hungarian woman who reflects that kind of political view which unfortunately is ascendant now. When the Soviet Union disintegrated, the Baltic states declared all citizens who lived there who were not ethnically pure were NOT citizens and had NO rights. I guess you also supported that too. All the EU would do is issue a slight condemnation, and let it go at that. Now if Belgium decided to ethnically cleanse itself of all Walloons, or Flems, I am certain that there would be a military confrontation. Remember the Turks invading Cyprus? I also said in a previous post that I supported THAT as well and felt the Turks were fully justified in doing that. By the way, NATO did nothing about that one too. So what use is it other than to act as a US proxy in Europe? The Turks are still there by the way.
I would have more respect for your ideas IF you had some idea of history and FACTS instead of spouting the propaganda line of the US. of course you do not need votes or anything like that since you can tell the will of the people without them. I don’t know why nick bothers to vote since you know already what the outcome will be. By the way, forceful like might does not always make right.
What the hell are you guys talking about? You all read a lot into things someone writes. You’d be better off just ignoring comments, which is what I intend to do for your hot flashes.
samantha:
No, they arent. What you are asking from the American people is eternal sacrifice of blood and treasure. We dont owe the world anything except to be polite and only use force if necessary for the protection of our own citizens and country. Or if our security interests are at stake which might threaten our sovereignty. Such as Hitler in WWII, Putin is not a threat to this country at this point in time.
“The freedom of the citizens of other countries—e.g., the freedom of Ukrainians—is a value to us, but their freedom is not a requirement of our remaining free. ”
H. Binswanger
Maybe you have friends and family in Ukraine, I am sorry but I dont and this isnt worth my son or daughter’s life.
The people you despise are the ones promoting this war. Soros, Kerry, McCain, etc.
You can call me evil all you want but I think you are wrong. If you have children, feel free to pack them off to Ukraine to fight the Russians, it is still a free country. Or better yet feel free to go yourself. The AK47 is an excellent weapon and Molotov Cocktails pack a pretty good punch.
Bron, unfortunately the “freedom” those in charge of the Ukraine want now is the freedom to slaughter Russians and drive them out. Sorry, but I will not stand in the way of or object to Putin doing the right thing and preventing that from happening. Too bad those in favor of checking the so called Russian invasion are silent and will stand by as those people are slaughtered as they did to the Serbs in Kosovo. It is absurd to try and pose as defenders of “freedom” when they support such things. Then when such folks are called on their double standard they will say but we object to that as well when they did nothing to prevent or even object to such doings. Spare the rest of us your sanctimonious tears.
No argument there, Bron. It’s why I favor the Ukrainian citizens in this international dog fight, who’ve been royally screwed — even killed — not just since 1991 but also throughout the entire Soviet era and even before that. And many here insanely argue against them. One can make the same argument for the middle class in America. It’s always the silk-lined pockets of greedy a$$holes who are responsible for all the suffering in the world. And the ones who never do anything about it are just as evil.
I see that Samantha only is in favor of the freedom for the Ukrainians SHE supports, and would happily kill off the Ukrainians who are not anti-Russian or Russian. Sorry, but I recall that a Ukrainian was head of the entire Soviet Union, Krushchev. and gave the Crimea to the Ukraine. The Soviet system was repressive, but it was that to ALL citizens, and they did not particularly care about the nationality. Stalin was from Georgia and spoke with a very heavy Georgian accent to his Russian. Hell, Georgia still had a statue and a museum dedicated to him while they were urging the US and NATO to fight for them against the Russians as they were blowing away Russian civilians in Osettia. At least the Georgians got rid of the US sponsored fool who started all that nonsense. I know that you and McCain were sorry to see him go as he lost the election and they voted against joining NATO.
samantha:
I dont have a 401k and never would. I might put in 3% for the matching funds but that would be it. I took care of my own retirement, those prics in the mutual funds are all about lining their own pockets.
So no, I have no interest in Ukraine unless of course a local McDonalds gets blown up by American troops fighting Russian troops. But then that is always what happens when tyrants and dictators are involved; people who work for a living providing goods and services to other people get screwed by war.
I have never suggested that we get into a military conflict with Russia. We did not during the Cold War and we don’t need to now either. Putin’s posturing, I think, has more to do with Obama being a prick. Putin gave refuge to Snowden as pay back. Putin blames Obama for losing his puppet in Ukraine. And now Putin is occupying Crimea to freak out Obama. I think a lot of this will all just blow over, after Obama quits being a prick, saving face for Putin.
As for Ukraine itself, I think the majority of those people want to be an independent nation, Russians and Ukrainians alike. After corrupt administrations have siphoned Ukraine’s wealth, it is now tragic Ukraine can’t survive without Russian or EU support. When the Soviet Union fell, corrupt Ukrainian officials sold government assets, such as generating stations and the grid, to Western investors (probably your own 401k, so not so fast, least you find yourself peeing into the wind), who were all too eager to pay bribes and kickbacks. So there are a lot of global interests here, all working in the background to help sort things out.
Where do the war hawks think we are going to get the military personnel to go to these wars from? Repeat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan have paid a toll on our troops. Where will we get the funding to involve ourselves in yet another war? It’s about time we go our nose out of other country’s affairs.
samantha:
I dont need to live in Ukraine to know we have no business involving ourselves in a shooting war with the Russians.
Putin is a tyrant and we should condemn his actions in the most strenuous possible way short of military action.
Hasnt 13 years of continuous war been enough?
Do you own stock in General Dynamics and Lockheed? Or have you shorted the dollar?
I dont care about Ukarnians and I didnt care about Iraqis then, I care less about what happens to them now and to Afghans.
If you want to go to war, invade Iran or just nuke the mullahs, Iran is a strategic threat to the US. Putin, not so much. He is just another tyrant/dictator who is hoping his people dont hang him naked from a light pole by his feet.
samantha
…
“A few weeks ago hardly one person in the press knew anything about Ukraine or its history. Now they’re all suddenly experts.”
With a plethora of conflicting and contradictory views as is typical (Ukraine: Tea Potters In A Tempest).
“Finally, the US has not expanded its territories since the end of the Cold War, but Russia has.”
Once you own the whole world that is not already nailed down, there is nothing remaining to consume (The Virgin MOMCOM – 8).
Saying the US has not expanded its territories is just using semantics. NATO expanded right up to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union.
Bron, why was Russian expansion a problem after WWII? Maybe you believe your freedom has been preserved by accident.
And randy, of course there has been US and Western influence in Ukraine, the same as there has been Russian influence there, too. You seem to favor only Russians having that right, a monopoly to lobby in Ukraine. The old broken record, he did it, so it is okay for me to do it, too, does not work. That’s like saying it is OK for Putin to rape just because Obama, Bush and Clinton had raped. I don’t think you’ve ever lived in Ukraine much less been there in a motel or something.
A few weeks ago hardly one person in the press knew anything about Ukraine or its history. Now they’re all suddenly experts.
Finally, the US has not expanded its territories since the end of the Cold War, but Russia has.
Samantha, I see you forgot about Iraq, ever hear of the place? The US sure as hell does expand our territory and we punish ANY who go against what the US dictates. You also forget that after the fall of the Soviet Union, there were millions of Russian citizens who were living and working in all the different republics, and who were subject to total loss of ANY civil rights in many of them, especially in the Baltics. It is as though, Hawaii seceded, and regained its independence, and then denied the majority of the people living there any civil rights as citizens. The US did NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THAT! So it is reasonable for Russia to be concerned about the rise of a fascist regime in the Ukraine which seeks to ethnically cleanse Ukraine of non-Ukrainians. Of course, we all know that ethnic cleansing as in Serbia is GOOD as long as you are defined as the, sub-human scum that the US hates.
Of course, the US LIED about not wanting to expand NATO, violated the Helsinki Treaty, violated the UN Charter. So it is more than reasonable for Russia to be concerned and intervene when the US instigates a coup to overthrow a freely elected government, but I know that free elections means nothing to you or the USA as long as the “right” people win. As I said, using the example of the USA, Putin has every right to take over the whole Ukraine and put back in power the legitimate government.
samantha:
why is that our problem? I dont want my son being killed in Ukraine for their idea of freedom. Screw that.
Enough already, isnt Iraq enough of an example to run anytime any numb nutted politician wants to bring democracy and freedom to another country? Especially if there is no US strategic interests attached to that country.
We should have a 1,000 ship navy, 6,000 nuclear missiles, a 2 million man army, anti-ballistic missile capability and the willingness to use it quickly and effectively if we are threatened and the wisdom to know what is and is not in our national interest.
Ukraine is not in our national interest and neither is Taiwan. But I am pretty sure if we were willing to use nukes and had the capability to shoot down Chinas ballistic missiles over the south China Sea, we wouldnt need to worry about China even mussing the hair of one person in Taiwan. Same goes for Russia and Ukraine.
Fighting the Russians over Ukraine is a Neo-Cons wet dream.
The bigger issuee is about a legitimate government firing on demonstrators and killing some 80 of them, wounding hundreds of others. It’s likely some Russians were killed and wounded also, the ones that were fed up with government corruption. The Russian trouble makers in Ukraine are members of the old Soviet guard, the Politburo members who ruled over Russian and Ukrainian workers alike, using corruption to live the high life while 90 percent of the population waited in bakery lines for a loaf of bread. This old guard wants its perks back, apparently at any cost. The Russian workers do not want to go back to Moscow’s rule any more than the Ukrainians want to. Both groups want Ukrainian independence. They just have to regain the common ground they had under Soviet rule, before Moscow began muddying the waters after 1991. Just because race relations have deteriorated in the United States, does not mean we should start partitioning the country. Russian and Ukrainian workers got along and coexisted during the Soviet era. With legitimate leadership, they can continue to do it again. I think Putin and Obama should get together on the golf course, both shirtless, set an example that people of different race can get along. After all, they do in Hollywood.
Samantha, Those demonstrators were NOT peaceful ones as we found out, but were ARMED and managed to kill a number of police. You will notice that in unarmed demonstrations such as Kent State among others, there were NO dead cops. THAT should clue you into the FACTS of the case. WE also know the US was supporting these fascists, and was giving them money and advice, most probably along the lines of the CIA to kill some of your own side to blame it on the government as the US did in Nicaragua to Eden Pastora.
The right wing is the ones who are stirring up most of the trouble and they hate Jews, an old Ukrainian pastime. Ukrainians supplied most of the guards at the death camps by the way, with a smattering of Lithuanians, Estonians. and Latvians. They also HATE Russians which does NOT bode well for their fate with this US installed government. As for the partitioning of a country, I refer you to the great job NATO did in breaking up Yugoslavia when the US pandered to the fascists there and violated the Helsinki Treaty on Europe. Then to compound the crime, the US stole Kosovo from Serbia which had been an integral part of Serbia for centuries. The US then helped to complete the ethnic cleansing and mass murder of the few remaining Serbs and Gypsies. So please spare me and the rest of us crocodile tears. NATO also thought that ethnically cleansing all the Serbs from the Kraijna region of Croatia was a good thing, at which point the fascist government killed or expelled over 300,000 Serbs, but that was GOOD ethnic cleansing since it was directed at Serbs. Let’s put the blame where it rightfully belongs, on the US and NATO. As I pointed out earlier, Putin, following the US example would be perfectly justified in restoring the previous government in the Ukraine. The list of the US doing that is so long I wonder if I have sufficient time or space. If you wish I will make that list.
randyjet:
you are right, we have no business in Ukraine. It makes me sick to think of our young men and women going over there for this.
If Putin invades Poland or the Baltic countries, well then I think we should intervene and hard but not for this.