Passengers on a flight from New York to Tel Aviv were put through what one passenger described as “an 11-hour long nightmare” on El Al after ultra-orthodox passengers refused to sit near women and demanded segregation of the sexes in line with their religion. The men in black hats and curly tendrils refused to take their previously selected seats for take off. They then jumped out of their seats and stood in the aisle protesting that women were near them . . . for 11 hours.
The El Al flight on Rosh Hashanah was described as an “11-hour nightmare” as the men continued to try to convince a planeload of people to relocate into segregated zones, even offering money to some to self-segregate. One woman was asked to move from the seat next to her husband.
The men continued to complain loudly and pray in the aisle for the flight, making it impossible for some passengers to use the rest rooms, according to media reports. At least the men did not add the Kapparot to the prayers.
The response (or lack thereof) by El-Al stands in sharp contrast to past cases of disruptions. Indeed, we have often been critical of how passengers are routinely tossed off flights for the slightest acts from telling jokes to wearing objectionable tee-shirts to notebook doodles to challenging a pilot’s sobriety to disagreeing with flight attendants to negative tweets. Muslims have long objected that they have been removed from flights for speaking Arabic, dressing in Muslim garb, or for unknown reasons. However, another airline actually threw off a Jewish boy who was praying on a flight. Yet, this incident did not result in any action taken by El-Al to the chagrin of the other passengers.
What is particularly bizarre is that these men selected their seats and knew that this was not a segregated flight. There is such a thing as chartered flights. Otherwise, you cannot force the rest of the world to comply with your extreme religious views.
Source: Washington Post
Aridog – Satanists are actually recognized as a religion, believe it or not. Should they be allowed in the “public square” along with Christian displays? They are arguing just that now.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/02/jewish-americans-vote-democratic
In the US Orthodox Jews make up the majority of Republican Jews. They are very conservative. Interesting article on why most Jews in the US do vote Democratic.
Maxcat06…that’s a pretty weak insult IMO, given that Lobby Hobby was not on topic in the first place. Never mind Lobby Hobby doesn’t interfere with 99.999% of American lives, so I’d say it is childish to make it a spurious issue, raised by others here, on a thread about religious demonstration in a public place. Nothing in Lobby Hobby physically interfered with anyone else. Those Hasidims did precisely that.
More to the point of the topic would be how these uber orthodox Jews were traveling by mechanical means on the Shabbat of Shabbats = Rosh Hashanah. More hypocrisy there than anywhere. What was their exceptional circumstance?
But I do agree that if all faiths cannot be accommodated, then none should be in public places and transportation. I do not believe that so called atheists should be able to ban all religious observances in public spaces…just that everyone should be able to do so and those who wish to opt, do so as well.
I’d also assert that El Al screwed the pooch on this one…they should have removed the Hasidim who were acting out from the place or arrested them upon landing. But then everyone is prone to mistake now and then.
Maxcat, I guess it’s not an “insult” unless it’s directed at themselves, lol. Same old, same old.
Annie – for you
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/09/full-7th-circuit-appeals-court-refuses-to-stop-wisconsin-voter-i-d-law/
Aridog – An insult is an insult. I’m in total agreement with the stupidity of the El Al situation. I also have opinions on the Hobby Lobby case. I’m also in agreement that the two have no basis of comparison. To just blanket all liberals as children, or as anything, is how everything on here always starts. Then come the agreements, then the other sarcastic comments.
Annie – Once again, I’m with you. It’s never an insult when it is directed at us. To be called children, I suppose, is an endearment. As in “you don’t understand the argument, you ALL think like children, you poor little dears”. Am I projecting out from a comment? Sure, but the comment wasn’t necessary, and I’m tired of them coming from the “loyal” opposition.
Aridog – Right here: “Liberals are children, often with temper tantrums. They can’t let go of Hobby Lobby decision.”
The Hobby Lobby decision had been referenced a few posts above.
I missed it…just where did Sandi Hemming go to insulting anyone on this thread? Or do I misunderstand your import Maxcat06?
Well, after all, women are a ‘near occasions of sin.’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBPXrk8he-8
“This is exactly what is wrong with granting people special privileges”…..PERIOD!
Liberals are children? I hardly think these Orthodox Toddlers were liberals. They belong in jail like anyone else who disrupts a flight. I want to know why they weren’t taken off in NY by police and jailed for both state and federal crimes and terrorism. This is exactly what is wrong with granting people special privileges because of their alleged religious beliefs. Don’t want to be on a plane with women, DON’T FLY!
Justice Holmes –
Orthodox Jews are the furthest away from liberals as one can get. I know this from personal experience. It does beg the question about special privileges. I would say that I could imagine granting minor privileges, but then minor ones become one more, than another, and you wind up with this. Your last sentence is the crux of it all.
It’s how I’ve come to feel about all religions, especially after I stopped practicing Judaism, but I can honestly say I have felt this all along; my beliefs are my own. I won’t impose them on others, but I won’t sit back and allow others to impose theirs on me, whether it be prayers in school, segregated seating on airplanes, head scarves, or gay marriage bans due to biblical edict, and I’m not even gay; I just resent it.
maxcat06 – Arizona State University took out the chapel that was in the Student Union and where that room was put in foot baths for the Muslim students and prayer rugs so they would be comfortable.
Paul – I’m as liberal as they come, but sorry; no chapel, no prayer rugs and foot baths. Accommodate all or have all do without, and considering the fact that it’s a state university, let them all do without.
maxcat06 – have to pass on a funny story from the ’60 about a hunger strike at Danforth Chapel at ASU (very small chapel no longer in use as far as I know). Some anti-war activist had ‘seized’ the chapel to have a hunger strike so the YAF Young Americans for Freedom set up a BBQ directly across from the chapel with huge fans blowing directly towards the chapel. Luckily, no feelings were hurt and all got feed.
Paul – Love the story about Danforth Chapel. All’s well that ends well.
I been talking to myself again….. It echos….
Drifting to Hobby Lobby from Orthodox Jews on El Al? Were these men arrested on arrival? El Al should put their names on their “no-fly” list. Liberals are children, often with temper tantrums. They can’t let go of Hobby Lobby decision. Yet tell everyone Obamacare is “settled” law. Hobby Lobby pays for 16 of 20 medications; the four they were against are for killing the fetus.
Sandi Hemming –
This liberal child hasn’t called you any names…yet. Is it really that difficult to keep a conversation on a par where posters on a blog aren’t consistently insulted? The interesting part of it all, is that the insults generally begin from the “adult” section, at least the personal ones do.
If you disagree with A.Y., state your case. That should be sufficient. I’ve seen far too many “adult” discussions here devolve into sly character assassination. I suppose yours is first salvo thrown.
AtheistCurmudgeon –
Thanks for your post. I find myself in total agreement, although I was more driven away by simply not being able to believe the nonsense. The religious fundamentalism didn’t help matters any, however.
AY,
You would have a good point if it were true. Hobby Lobby doesn’t require their employees to comply or get fired. The employee is not prevented from killing an unwanted fetus; the employer is just not going to be forced into enabling the action. The employee still has the liberty to seek other employment.
Seems hobby lobby is doing a good job of forcing folks to comply with there religious views…. So what’s the real difference here?
DBQ, The ELF are dangerous but since they’re left terrorists, they don’t get much attention. My wife recommended a stiff sentence for one of those a-holes in Federal Court.
Fundamentalism in action.
Those who study the various religions know that Judaism and Islam are very much alike. Christianity, even with its impossible biblical mythology, and deranged doctor killers, teaches more tolerance and kindness to others.
When one imposes their beliefs on others is where I draw the line. Follow your religion or follow no religion; in the process, do not infringe the rights of anyone else.
The Musims were not raising a ruckus or intefering with the other passengers. Their “crime” was being Muslim and freaking people out(they prayed before getting on plane-which Muslims traveling often do in airports).
On that note, no matter what religion someone is, clearly interfering with plane operations and access to facilities as well as overtly harassing other passengers should result in being kicked off the plane with no apologies. Just an arrest.
MCS – the Muslims caused a ruckus on the plane by demanding seatbelt extenders even though they did not need them and changing seats. And they were freaking the passengers out. The complaints first came from the passengers, then from the crew who took it to the captain who deplained them.
Freedom of religion plus human rights equals freedom from religion. The religious of this world can be defined as to how far they have made it out of the cave. Most religious people are well out of the cave into the light. These guys are so far back they cannot see any light. There is nothing wrong with clowns, gayly dressed individuals, or showoffs of any sort. However, this is obstruction bordering on terrorism. It is so surprising that this religion is the source of this sort of activity, shoving their doctrine down the throats of others, holier than thou, terrorists acts. But maybe not. Remember the Steiner Gang and the slaughter since 1948.