Germany has long shown far greater foresight than the United States in the investment into science, infrastructure, and alternative energy — investments that are now giving the country huge returns as a leading economic system. With a decision of Lower Saxony, the German have now shown precisely how serious they are about keeping the country as one of the most educated in the world: they have eliminated all college and university tuition. The Germans view education as not just a right, but an essential component for continued growth.
There are critics to educational subsidies who raise some good-faith issues of how such payments can eliminate pressure to make efficient choices and actually drive up costs. I actually see value to students paying some tuition. However, with tuition sky rocking in the United States and falling enrollment numbers, the United States is heading to a reckoning in the future for our lack of investment in our workforce. While we have spent trillions of dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and just renewed our commitment to the later to keep forces in the country), we have continued to cut environmental, scientific, educational, and infrastructure investments. The inevitable result is that we will continue to drop in our competitiveness in the world market and the future economy. Every other country is investing heavily in education while the United States continues to be distracted by shiny objects with more immediate political benefits for politicians.
What is striking is that it is not just third world countries that are investing heavily education, but economic leaders like Germany.
Notably, tuition was only introduced in Germany in 2006 after the German Constitutional Court ruled that limited fees do not violate the country’s commitment to universal education. However, the tuition rates proved unpopular and the country is now tuition free. Of course, there is no such thing as free tuition. The taxpayers are footing the bill. Moreover, such government subsidies can have a negative impact on not just the choices of students (who feel less pressure to make efficient choices) but on schools which are dependent on the government.
Nevertheless, the contrast could not be greater with the United States in terms of the commitment to education as not just a right (as it is in Germany) but as a real national security priority.
The article below has an interesting discussion of how England rejected the free tuition approach but has lost more money due to the higher student default rate on tuition. Yet, the English students face a maximum debt load of $14,550 per year where U.S. tuition rates and debt are soaring. Student loan debt in our country now stands at $1.2 trillion.
Of course, that is less than a third of the costs for the wars, but no one is making such comparisons.
http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/10/01/3574551/germany-free-college-tuition/
“Germany’s model is that once you are on a track you cannot switch to the other track.”
Well, that inflexibility is certainly not good! People change and need to be able to switch their aims and goals when their circumstances change. To be irrevocably dedicated to one track at an early age is unreasonable.
“I guess individual can’t even make the decision to go to college to try and better themselves. Wow.”
@ raflaw
Of course people should be encouraged to better themselves.
What they should have is better guidance on what that IS. For many it may be college. For others it may be a career/technical/craft track that doesn’t require college. Life is a bell curve whether people want to admit it or not. Not everyone is on the right hand side of the curve.
The idea that all students should aim for college is delusional at best. In addition the idea that if you DON’T go to college you are getting a substandard eduction or that you are somehow less because you don’t have a college degree is quite stupid.
There are many who don’t go to college who are just as intelligent and perhaps even more intelligent than those who wasted their college years and went to party central and didn’t “better themselves” at all.
I guess what I am saying is that one size does not fit all. Students should be receiving better advice that will help them to find out HOW to better themselves and what it is that they really want to do and what they are best at doing.
Price controls on healthcare and education is clearly needed. The “greed is good” mentality is what drove costs up.
Annie – price controls mean wage controls on nurse, lpns, etc as well as doctors, procedures. In Arizona part of our cost is because we have to pay for work done on illegal aliens that the federal government won’t pay for.
Yes indeed it does.
Nick, I see your point. I tend to be overly optimistic, but wherever I look, I only see dysfunction. There is currently not one single system in this country that works, whether legislative, executive, financial or judicial. It makes it a bit difficult not be pessimistic.
As a student of history myself, I can’t help but see the signs precursors of the decline of the empire. And one of such signs is the leaders doubling down of the blindsighted decisions and the people being willing to give up their rights and freedoms for the sake of assuaging their fears of the other.
Olly
That’s is the same principle behind what I propose. France, Israel and other western countries have mandatory military service attached to educational credit. My issue with the military service however is for fear it make create a bigger warring psyche in our midst. The military is too powerful of a force currently, and the make everyone its pupil and alumnus, would increase its power.
Although if everyone’s child is in the military, everyone may be more cautious about pushing for more wars.
po – just whose empire do you see declining?
A tracked high school model (Paul at 8:41) and a Guild or trades model (slohrss29 @ 8:49) would both go a long way towards improving our education system’s outcomes and creating a better economy in total.
Those who are capable of college level courses will be given the opportunity in high school to advance in areas that will give them skills and knowledge for college career tracks. This was the case when I was in high school, back in the dark ages of the 1960’s. You could take more classes in areas that were of interest to you. Science and History were my two major areas of interest. I was originally going to be an Anthropology major with a concentration in Meso American Archeology. However, life got in the way and I ultimately ended up as a financial planner, investment advisor and constructed portfolios for individuals. Go figure? However………
Those who are not interested in going to college were able to take the basic/core studies and then some electives. Such as photography/yearbook or art or shop courses. Extra English courses. Literature.
If we also had a professional trades track, those students who were not interested in a formal college or couldn’t afford it, would be able to become skilled in a trade. Welding. Construction. Plumbing. Electrical. Computer programming. Etc. All good paying jobs and necessary industries.
This would give better guidance to the students. Keep them from wasting 4 to 6 EXPENSIVE years of their lives only to graduate with a useless degree in an area where there is no employment and be tens of thousands of dollars in debt.
More students would be better prepared to actually …..WORK (in my best Maynard Crebs voice)
DBQ – one of things I do not like about Germany’s model is that once you are on a track you cannot switch to the other track.
I hate to open a can of worms, but here goes. Kind of like healthcare. Actually, very much like healthcare. Make the easy money available, and it will be taken. There needs to be some pressure on these industries from the outside to control costs. Market pressures would help healthcare, but they have been removed largely by regulation. (The Germans have worked to keep some market forces involved in their healthcare system.) I have recently seen some great TV creative for trade schools. I am hoping they seize the moment, and can be the source of some of that market force that would help control costs. I think trade schools are an important option, and secondary education needs to address this option more as well. If kids can study hard for a couple of years and be on their way to having a strong skill without being $250,000 in debt and getting a job as a grocery store scanner, we’re all better off.
slohrss29 – I tried calling my primary doctor on Thursday and his phone line was constantly busy. Since his office is very close I thought I would just drop by to do what I needed to do. Imagine my surprise when I learned that the vaunted computer system forced on them by Obamacare was down and they could not get to the patient records, they could not take appts and they could not reschedule appts. They were very nice in their frustration. I think one of the doctors had pulled the files the night before and was seeing paitents, but other than that the office (with 10 doctors) was at a standstill.
The USA isn’t Germany. College loan costs are out of control – 1 Trillion – because the cost of college is out of control. Subsidize something and no one has any incentive to control the costs, while the professors and university employees have EVERY incentive to increase the costs. Suggest some sort of cost controls on Colleges and you get blank stares or incredulous looks. Oh no we can’t do that, no matter what, not that.
What an amazing discussion. We go from Germany going tuition free at the university level and now the Dem machine is feeding the voracious and dysfunctional education industry. And too many people going to college. I guess individual can’t even make the decision to go to college to try and better themselves. Wow.
“The 18 year old body and mind is not meant to be in a classroom most of the day. it is meant to be more active, more challenged and to see more than 4 walls.”
Po,
I agree completely and this is why I’d propose making a 2 year commitment into the military compulsory after high school. First, it truly has a way of maturing teenagers into honorable and respectable adults. Second, it does a great job in focusing those young adults towards their natural skillset.
I wouldn’t be opposed to my tax dollars paying for “continuing” college education for those veterans that have proven they have earned it honorably.
po, This country has gone through stormy times like this in the past. They always seemed like they would not get better, but they did. Much of my existence is controlled by the fact that I am an optimist and a student of history. I see the reality, but believe that w/ a positive attitude, all problems can be overcome.
“Those who say they can, and those who say they can’t, are both correct.”
John Wooden
Paul, I saw the compliment, and responded to it, appropriately I think.:)
Actually, not just one university was involved, as seen here http://www.democracynow.org/2013/11/29/ebony_and_ivy_the_secret_history
Also, I thought this was not about Islam? One minute you are complimenting me for steeping outside Islam, and the next you bring us right back in?
Nick, my point about not being American was not meant literally, just philosophically, and just presently. There is a reason I immigrated here and it was the lure of the melting pot. I am just seeing nowadays that we are divided in every aspect, and the ideals that made American morally superior and great, are the casualties of the infighting and fracturing I see today.
po – you are blaming a university for something that happened hundreds of years ago. I can blame Islam for the same. And sadly, with Islam, it continues today.
Interesting note Paul. There has to be some good ones out there. It just seems the new business model for schools is to “stick that cash pig of cheap government student loans and suck out all you can.” Funny how easy money can corrupt things–or, at least access to easy money for those without ideals.
Too many colleges and WAY too many kids going to college. That is the Dem machine feeding the voracious and dysfunctional education industry. We need people who know how to do stuff. Build houses, fix cars, repair plumbing, Good paying and rewarding professions, LBJ is the grandfather of creating an education industry w/ the student loan program where too many kids, w/ no business going to college, did.
I have been telling whoever wants to listen not to send their child to university from high school unless it is the rare child who knows exactly what (s)he wants to study,who is smart enough, and dedicated enough to go for it.
AT $40.000 a year, why pay for the child to spend a couple of years trying to find himself, indulge in extensive partying and later on finding a job that has nothing to do with her major?
Find a good community college in your area, let them take classes there while remaining home (or they can get a job and pay for their apartment). Taking their general ed classes for the required 2 years would give them plenty of time to mature, to be more responsible and more importantly, to know what they really wish to study. Universities have a vested interest in maintaining the structure of high school to college pipeline, but, frankly, most recent high school graduates have no business going to college directly. It would be more beneficial to all parties concerned, and to the nation, if a system was put in place that offered them the option to volunteer in our parks and other national infrastructures in exchange for college credit and a stipend.
The 18 year old body and mind is not meant to be in a classroom most of the day. it is meant to be more active, more challenged and to see more than 4 walls.
po, We are indeed a nation of immigrants. All 4 of my grandparents were immigrants. But, all immigrants have assimilated into probably the most unique culture in the world. The assimilation is not working in Europe. Mexicans are assimilating but there has been such a HUGE influx of illegal Mexicans they have formed insular communities where they don’t learn the language and assimilate as all other groups have.
po, I have observed a microcosm of assimilation in Wi. of the Hmong people. The US promised them safe refuge after the Viet Nam war. They helped us immensely and were targets after the war. These are rural people where the women grow crops and the men hunt. What did we do, we put them in urban areas!! Their culture caused many men to end up in prison. Their culture includes kidnapping your bride, often 14 or 15 years old, and “marrying” her by having sex. The Hmong had no written language. Over the 30 years I’ve lived here I am seeing a slow assimilation. But not w/o some real clashes. A Hmong hunter killed Anglo hunters in a fit of rage. Got a lotta press here. I have gotten to know some Hmong farmers. Buy my produce from them, Gotten to know some of their food. Went to a graduation party of a kid I taught and loved the food. Lot’s of game food as you would imagine.
There is always a disharmony amongst people whose families have been here for centuries and those who are 1st, 2nd generation immigrants. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. We have always worked it out. I am very optimistic the Mexican immigrants will do just fine, But, we MUST secure the border and make immigration a legal process, not a trek across a porous border and across the desert.
Germany also requires that parents support their children into their 20’s if they are at university.
Easy for politicians to be generous when they are forcing other people to pay for their largess.
Carping aside, our education system is broken.
Government policies actually entrench the flaws (ever increasing tuition costs, increasing student debt, a greater divide between the classes).
Also, one has only to read up on the history of these Ivy league universities that sit atop the educational food chain to see that whatever issue we face with escalating tuition costs and the pursuit of profit over educational benefits did not come out of nowhere. Without the active participation and profits resulting from their involvement in slavery, many of these universities would not be here today.
po – fyi – I think only one university was involved in the slave trade or got their money from someone in the slave trade. I have yet to hear our Muslim brothers apologize for selling slaves during America’s slave period and even today.
Paul
Oops, I thought we were discussing Islam!
I do think it fallacious though to bring up Germany’s pre- WW2 era tendencies when discussing Germany’s post-WW2 tendencies. It is neither the same Germany nor the same tendencies. All it shows it that the ability to produce quality products is intrinsically German.
slohrss29 is right, how are we American? We are merely a bunch of different ethnic, political and economical affiliations co-existing within the same borders. Sure, we are Americans because we share a common space and are, generally, subject to the same structure, and we operate under the general ideal of personal freedom, otherwise what defines us as a nation?
po – I brought up Germany’s war efforts and the post war efforts of some of its scientists since you were pointing out their obvious technical mechanical superiority. None of what they have today would be there without WWII and the ability to start from scratch. Japan is the same. They had no old infrastructure they had to deal with. They had the Marshall Plan to come in and help them recover. BTW, did I not compliment you for being on this thread? Did you miss that?
I don’t know Paul. When I watch the news, it’s always some group against someone else. When I read a couple of years ago the American soccer team getting booed in California, I had to wonder.
I’m also not saying the government should pay for everything. But I think we know, easy government money has helped to create the cash-hoarding monsters universities have become. That is the difference. Harvard has high tuition rates, and it sitting on something like $50 billion in cash or some crazy number. Don’t see where that is helping anybody.
slohrss29 – some years back I read an article about a charity that was very well funded, but continued to ask for money because there might come the day when the funding dried up. Their cost for asking was low and their gain was great, so their was really no downside for them. Financially stable universities do not seem to use that cash stream to pay salaries to lower tuition or books or whatever.
Actually, whoever is the next Attorney General of the United States need to look into the cost of college textbooks. It is a racket. I think RICO could be used and schools could be closed. 😉
I wonder if their college football coaches make multi-million dollar salaries?