Cake Wars: Bakery Under Investigation After Refusing To Make An Anti-Gay Cake

Wedding_cake_with_pillar_supports,_2009We have previously discussed (here and here) the growing conflicts over businesses that decline to accommodate same-sex weddings and events in a clash between anti-discrimination and free speech (and free exercise) values. Despite my support for gay rights and same-sex marriage, I have previously written that anti-discrimination laws are threatening the free exercise of religion. Some of these cases involve bakeries that insist that making wedding cakes for same-sex couples violates their religious principles. Now we have a twist on this trending litigation. The Azucar Bakey has been found to have broken discrimination laws by refusing to make an anti-same-sex cake. The bakery was asked to make a Bible-shaped cake with an anti-gay slur and owner Marjorie Silva refused. The customer brought a complaint to the Colorado Civil Rights Commission and won.


The customer wanted the bakery to draw two males holding hands with “a big ‘X’ on them.”

Silva identifies herself as a practicing Christian and makes Christian cakes, but balked at making an anti-gay cake at her Lakewood bakery in December 2013. Previously in Colorado, Masterpiece Cakeshop owner Jack Phillips broke discrimination laws when he refused to make a cake for the same-sex wedding of Dave Mullins and Charlie Craig in July of 2012. That decision was upheld by the Colorado Civil Rights Commission.

Now we have the flip side. Silva offered to leave the bible page blank to allow the customer (who she describes as disruptive) to write whatever he wanted but she declined to write it herself. Ironically, she could have simply refused to serve him on the basis for any disruption in the store. She was later sent a notice by the Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies (DORA) that a religious discrimination complaint has been filed against Azucar Bakery. She has since received a notice from DORA requesting a final letter describing her account of events.

The question raised by these cases is whether anti-discrimination laws are driving too deeply into free speech rights. Bakers and photographers view themselves as engaged in a form of speech generally. The loss of a bright-line defining free speech has meant that we are finding ourselves increasingly on a slippery slope of speech regulation. On the other hand, we fought hard to guarantee accommodation for all races in places of public accommodation. Stores are not allowed to ban black customers under the same rationale. The question is whether there is a difference between refusing to serve customers on the basis for sexual orientation generally as opposed to taking an active or direct role in a same-sex wedding.

Where do you think we should draw the line?

Source: KDVR

270 thoughts on “Cake Wars: Bakery Under Investigation After Refusing To Make An Anti-Gay Cake

  1. There is a big difference between being asked to make a cake and being asked to include a anti gay slur. This was a set up pure and simple.

  2. Supporting gay marriage necessarily entails limited free speech.
    Making LGBTQs part of discrimination law requires it.

    Better get used to the fact that the State now owns you, so practicing religion will be soon forbidden.
    Except for Islam, of course. Beheadings make that less likely. That’ll be solved with no-go zones. Until they run a city.

    See how all this multi-culti diversity po-mo PC socialist stuff has been corrosive?

    The liberal demands of You can’t say that and its twin You can’t do that now affect everything we do, from morning to night, from food to religion. We are enslaved.

    Thanks, Rousseau, Marx, and Foucault!

  3. In my opinion, creative endeavors that are performed on a contract basis should be free to refuse a mandate to create on demand things that violate their conscience.

    A request for a generic box of cookies should be made in accordance with discrimination laws but to require a baker to creatively put messages on the cookies that violate their conscience would be improper.

  4. a few observations:

    I believe she could prevail in the sense that the act of drawing an X through two individuals has historical context in promoting hatred toward them and she could argue that she does not engage in a business that promotes hatred toward other individuals.

    Secondly, who at this government agency had the gall to not summarily dismiss this complaint as being vexing and retaliatory in nature.

    See, this is one of my great complaints about having bureaucrats as enforcement officers. They typically have no clue about what it means to use discretion. They sit in some cubicle all day and never have the opportunity to deal with real world situations and understand the human condition that can be found in working the road like real deputies or police do. So, they clamp down on ordinary people by using their default automaton behavior that requires absolute compliance when the opportunity arrives to finally strike someone down.

    Most true cops would look at the entire picture here and recognize this guy is just being an ass and drop the case before it even began; knowing it is just a waste of everyone’s time.

  5. If a bakery posts a sign that states it does not make pornographic or polemical pastries, then it can discriminate on that basis, but not on the basis of what kind of pornography is offensive, e.g., gay, to the baker and what kind of pornography is not.

  6. I am wondering if I am going to be forced to prescribe estrogen to men who want to take it, against my medical judgement.

    Answer: Yes, lest I face anti-discrimination lawsuits.
    The future sure sounds fun.

    What else will the State force me to do against my will?

  7. Whatever happened to he concept of free association? No one should be forced to do business with someone else. Period.

  8. If a photographer’s conscience does not permit him to memorialize a gay wedding then he should be legally required to post a notice on the front of his business location and in his advertising stating that he does not do gay events. In this way, gays do not suffer the humiliation of being refused his service unbeknownst to them. In addition, this notice will allow potential customers to avoid giving their “straight” business to a businessman whose discrimination offends their conscience. I see no reason why a person is entitled to keep his conscience a secret in the exercise of his business.

  9. Jeff, why couldn’t he simply remain discreet, and simply say No, offering no reason at all?

    Why force people to post their beliefs?
    Are people engaged in commerce not allowed any privacy?

    And where would it end? If he did not explicitly post that he would not make a Nazi cake, does he then have to make one?

  10. In a state that permits gay marriage, gays have a reasonable expectation that wedding photographer’s do not discriminate against them. Why would the photographer be ashamed of proclaiming his moral and/or religious belief which prevents him from participating in gay rituals? I have a right to know whether I am soliciting a business whose business practices are an affront to my conscience.

  11. “In a state that permits gay marriage, gays have a reasonable expectation that wedding photographer’s do not discriminate against them.

    Ha ha. Bet people did not know that when they agreed to allow gays to marry (or, more often, judges negated citizen votes to do so).
    So in your view, bakeries and photographers should close if they are unwilling to comply.

    “Why would the photographer be ashamed of proclaiming his moral and/or religious belief
    What difference does it make to you why they don’t proclaim it?
    It could be the same reason that Jews no longer wear a kippah outdoors in France.
    Because people will harm them, and the State doesn’t care.
    In your lefty paradise, people must be coerced to comply with the fashionable beliefs, otherwise they will destroy you one way or another.

    More, your viewpoint that he must be “ashamed” of his belief suggests it is shameful, and that you will act on that.

    “I have a right to know whether I am soliciting a business whose business practices are an affront to my conscience.
    Really?
    Is that in the Constitution, or just another “right” created by morally preening socialists?

  12. “Lefty paradise” and “morally preening socialists”
    You finish with the name-calling? You are a waste of my time.

  13. Some folks look for answers, others look for fights. I will gladly debate someone who engages in a respectful discourse.

  14. As far as business goes if I was the cake shop owner I would have just made the cake as requested. Another sale is how I look at the matter.

  15. Jeff, defend or don’t.

    If you don’t like being called ‘tyrannical’ for demanding that businesses “should be legally required to post a notice on the front of [their] business location and in [their] advertising stating that [they] do not do gay events“,
    …well, then don’t be a tyrant.

    Heck, you even made a new rule, that people are no longer “entitled to keep [their] conscience a secret in the exercise of [their] business.

    Or instead you could simply defend your tyranny.
    But don’t blame your inability to do so on me.

    Believe me, I got my answer, loud and clear.

  16. Maybe there needs to be a sign which is standard and can be put up in any retail store.
    “We refuse to do the following______________ or will not cater to Gays
    or Anti Gays in the course of doing business. If you wanna bitch then go
    outside. Bitch, bitch, bitch.”

  17. So, if I own a bakery I have to serve anyone who comes in and do anything they ask? Does the business owner have no rights? I realize that is a massive generalization. I agree with Justice Holmes, this was a set up. Some deeper research will likely reveal that this customer is affiliated closely with an organization who is trying to make a point.

  18. Pogo, Your point about how PC can effect your medical/scientific refusal to prescribe estrogen to a man is sobering. PC stifles debate and speech. The Gay Mafia have perfected this. Free speech maybe should apply for endangered status.

  19. Jeff’s solution of putting up a sigh “We don’t Do Gay Weddings” is precious. That is a target sign for the Gay Mafia. And, “Gay Mafia” is a term gay people use w/ pride.

  20. @ Jeff, I would respectfully debate the issue, but I first demand to know what you like, don’t like, support, are against, etc. by your reasoning where does privacy begin and end?

  21. There is a difference between not selling a normal wedding cake based on the participants in the wedding and making a cake containing a slur against any person or group. In the former case, the baker may need to put “John and Jon” or “Joan and Jane” instead of “John and Jane” on the cake, but that should be insignificant. However, if a potential customer desires to put “John and Jon” are “______________” (pick your choice of slurs – there are enough to choose from) on a cake, the baker would need to place that expressive slur. That may be considered outside the normal business practices of that bakery and such expressions may be refused. However, if the bakery routinely makes cakes saying “pagans go the h*ll”, maybe the outcome is different.

    With regard to posting signs, I recall in the 60’s seeing signs in restaurants that the “management reserves the right to refuse service to anyone.” Of course, “anyone” referred to blacks. Signs do not absolve a commercial establishment from following discrimination laws.

    I agree that the bakery should have made the cake, charged double, and delivered it in a plain box that did not identify the bakery.

  22. “There is a big difference between being asked to make a cake and being asked to include a anti gay slur. This was a set up pure and simple.”

    Let’s flip this and see if the other side works…

    There is a big difference between being asked to make a cake and being asked to bake a cake for gays when it’s against the owners’ religious beliefs.. That was a set up pure and simple.

    Yep, it seems that both statements are valid. Hmmm.. Imagine that.

  23. Goodridge, read together with Mass. Gen. Laws ch. 207, §§ 1 and 2, means that in Massachusetts a man can marry his brother. New York enacted legislation in 2011 allowing same-sex marriage. As a result, two brothers can marry in New York. N.Y. Dom. Rel. Law § 5.

    An “X” is not indicative of a slur, is simply a statement, a vote of reasoned thought as to not support a the message that ‘brother to brother marriage’ would send to children.

    So we come to the issue of Prejudice, you have before you an issue, not of politics, not of subjective feelings, but one of Prejudice, one of Justice – So we ask you – which child does the constitution allow to be prejudiced by the people so governed by the constitution – a constitution that presumably allows the elderly and infertile to marry in order to protect the civil rights of the child they may be raising – –

    from the related same-sex pair: or
    from the unrelated same-sex pair ?

    May you not place and “X” upon the former and also the latter . . .

  24. Seems to me it is not much different then asking the baker to use profanirty in the cake. Would he not have a right to refuse to do so?
    If it is against his conscience it is against his conscience and as much as I abhor that the baker refused a gay couple it is their right to do so but the analogy of could they turn away a black customer, or a black baker a whoite customer based on race, (or Asian, India, etc) does seem apt. It is not as Pogo wants and likes to make it a “leftie” thing it is a question of where can, and should, the line be drawn? Do we want to return to per civil rights days where it was legal to force a black person to stand in the back of the bus, or actively discriminate against those whose race, religion, sexuality we don’t like.?

  25. PC Playbook

    If someone says their religion says that gay marriage is a sin, smirk and call them “HOMOPHOBE!”

    if someone says one should have an ID to vote, scowl and yell, “RAAACIST!”

    If someone uses the phrase Islamic terrorists, frown and call them “Islamaphobe.”

    And, the playbook is working folks.

  26. This is crazy. To the greatest extent possible, people should be allowed to live their lives as they choose. They should not be allowed to kill/harm other people or destroy property but beyond that, leave us the hell alone. Political correctness is a cancer.

  27. Is refusing to make a cake with a discriminatory message (“I don’t bake cakes that contain discriminatory messages.”) really the same as refusing to make a cake as a discriminatory statement (“I don’t bake wedding cakes for gay marriages.”)? I would say no. Ain’t no way “Congratulations Steve and Steve” is discriminatory to anyone.

  28. … Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies (DORA) …

    Avoiding my usual epistle, for this one I’d simply say the fact such an agency that regulates other regulatory agencies, is the problem. KISS principle and all that. Sort of like our Department of Homeland Security (lifted from Orwell?) …. rather than a chief executive simply exercising their legal power to direct agency actions, they create a buffer agency to do so (convenient for de rigueur dodges, etc.) …one that produces precisely zero for the populace? Will this never end?

    PS: I am moved by this issue exactly the same as I am by the post on beauty contestants being investigated for association, however slight, with another contestant due to what is defined as political correctness by ugly old jerks in government. I am both ugly and old, but no longer in government. It drove me mad it appears. How dare I not advocate for more regulatory regulatory regulatory (redundancy intended) oversight? By anyone but the populace and the voters. Ha ha, ho ho, they’re coming to take me away, ho ho….

  29. BTW..I am NOT criticizing the posting of these odd stories…I encourage it so we can see just inane we are becoming. Cakes? Pretty women? And we, or others, have time to find fault. Especially in a case that refused to advocate for base bigotry? Pray f’ing tell me, just what is it that is wanted?

  30. Jeff SIlberman said: I have a right to know whether I am soliciting a business whose business practices are an affront to my conscience.

    No. You do not have that right.

    You are proposing that a business owner should have to post a long litanny of things that he or she believes in or doesn’t believe in that “might” be an affront to someone’s conscience. This would be a never ending list since people seem to have an unending ability to be affronted lately.

    What if I am offended by a person keeping a pet of any kind and consider that animal slavery? Does the business owner need to post that they own dogs or cats?

    How about if my offense-o-meter pegs at someone who likes to use rubber restraints and bondage gear in three way multi gender hook ups? I think the owner should post that since my tender sensibilities might be triggered and the offense-o-meter will be pegged into the red zone.

    In your world everyone should post their religion on their business door front, just in case I am affronted by Mormons or Muslims. Right? Maybe a nice bright yellow star for the Jewish merchants….hmmmmm?

    In addition to being an invasion of the privacy of the business owner, your suggested practice would expose them to potential harm and retaliation from people who are prejudiced and affronted.

  31. Pray f’ing tell me, just what is it that is wanted?

    Obedience to the state. The more ridiculous the regulations, the more one must adapt one’s thinking to accept the primacy of the state over one’s own moral instincts.

  32. Darren…I sort of agree with you, …e.g., “business is business”, but with reservations. I’d not build an oil rag woven wooden cross for the local wackos for their perverse celebrations (which I have witnessed) nor would I make a cake for people who are obviously trying to set me up by demanding a slur. Wouldn’t get that far with me…I’d have phsyicalyl removed the idiots from my premises. No one has a right to demand I create slurs. I no longer give a rat’s tinker dang about gay issues, but I would draw the line at the incest described in an earlier post…I suggest we form a department of “Deserved Butt Kicking” for those people. I have way too much time breeding horses and dogs or dealing with the process to ever think that was a sound idea, let alone legal for humans to abuse each other like they do animals with in-breeding.

    As a young man-boy (18 years of age) I made my first road trip through the south…and what I saw I admit stunned me for my naiveté … and I have never forgotten it. Between Memphis and Pompano Beach I saw overt racial discrimination and I then vowed I’d never participate in any form…even against gays, who I had several as friends at the time (1960’s). Of course, the LBGT community has over reached now, but it was to be expected. Doesn’t mean I will participate either way. I will remain me. I retain the values I held as that man-boy of 1961. And I am not the lest ashamed of it. Fact is, those values saved my life at times in a place far away…when I first encountered real terrorism and its effects. I was able to trust those who might otherwise have hated me, with some justification based on their prior experience with westerners.

  33. Chip S….of course, you are correct in that statement. My problem is that I can never really do it if it violates my personal principles.

  34. As a PI operating my own business there were many type cases I would not take. I was asked to investigate the background of a politician to see if he fathered a black child. I respectfully declined it. I have been asked to help defend child pornographers and child rapists. I declined. I actually decline ALL criminal defense cases. I decline domestic dispute infidelity cases. I decline ALL types of cases for a myriad of reasons. IT’S MY BUSINESS!!

  35. Nick, you’ve just made vividly the moral argument for a free society. When social justice fully displaces “mere” justice, there will be no scope for personal morality, and it will be much easier for the state to direct people’s lives.

  36. When gay marriage becomes the law of the entire land (which it will IMO sometime the week of June 28th) these types of cases will expand exponentially.

    Exceptions to discrimination laws will have to be carved out for things such as this specific type of case. If exceptions are not granted and instead an attempt is made to effectively interpret the free exercise clause to the point of vanishing then the landmark case this summer will become another Roe v Wade.

    Another unending source of turmoil for this country.

  37. I’m just trying to get over the idea that an “x” through two guys holding hands qualifies as a “slur”. Then pretty much any voicing or indication of disagreement must be a “slur”.

    This fits in with the left’s demonization game. Disagree with a liberal black person, you’re obviously racist. Disagree with abortion, you hate all women. Disagree with environmentalist dogma regarding the cause of climate change, you’re a denier. Disagree with tax increases, you are a selfish rich fat cat. Disagree with more government spending, you hate poor people. I could go on and on….

  38. Would a cake shop have to make a cake along the lines of “I hate N*GG&RS!!” or something equally offensive?

    As a layman a civil right is something you have a right to expect others to respect. I don’t think there is any right to expect others to respect your prejudices. I don’t think this holding has merit. Someone who can properly parse legal wording can probably make a better argument .

  39. I don’t think there is any right to compel others to perform acts they don’t wish to perform.

    Nice and simple, w/ no need to define “prejudice”.

  40. Chip – just got back from one of my doctors where I had to fill out ‘more’ paperwork because of the ‘government.’ Even though I complained that nothing had changed they were not going to treat me until I filled everything out. I did get the down to filling in only the necessities.

    I thank God for the day that Obama was elected President!!!

  41. Paul did they tell you why because of the “government” You make these sweeping posts without backing anything up. I too thank G-d he was elected pres so we do have more access to insurance, the economy recovered, despite no jobs bills from the gop unemployment down from Bush 10+% to under 6% etc etc. See this is how you do it. You actually give examples of why you state what you state.

  42. So…..leejcaroll calls Paul C a liar? Then makes unfounded and undocumented statements about how rosy everything is for everyone.

    Nice.

    My doctor is quitting his practice, of more than 20 years, in a few months because of the restrictions to his practice and the costs that the Obamacare mandates have put on his practice. He states that he had to hire 2 more people just to handle the computer input and paperwork. When he sees patients he has a girl with her computer on a rolling stand during patient/doctor meetings so she can enter in all the information required instead of him doing it. At least we get to look the doctor in the eyes while someone else is typing away.. Patient privacy is a thing of the past, evidently.

    Care to call me a liar also?

  43. “For-Profit Corporations” could legally change their business license to a “Sole-Proprietorship” – this would erase the legal protections of the “corporate veil”. This provides greater censorship rights for a company as long as it doesn’t violate the Civil Rights Act.

    In the eyes of the law: a “Sole-Proprietorship” is a single person which could have religious beliefs. When the business is a “For-Profit Corporation” there are two separate people (human person + corporate person) – if a customer sues the business, the owner’s assets are largely protected from a lawsuit because the plaintiff only sued the corporate person (not the human person). The human person (owner) really can’t claim religious rights of the 2nd person (corporate person).

    For those thinking frivolous lawsuits and legalese, so-called conservatives and corporate lobbyists are the most responsible for this legal mess – not liberal college law professors.

  44. DBQ talk about calling names without back up I did not call him a liar but go ahead keep saying what others haven’t said. I did say no back up just a sweeping statement. I have to fill out new paperwork when I go to some of my docs and have had to for years has nothing to do with the ACA. gonna call me a liar now? Funny how asking for proof of something is now a bad thing.
    I dpont like my GP because he comes in with the computer and typoes in everything and never looks me in the eye. Has nothing to do with the ACA has to do with electronic record keeping. If you don’t like it tell him, Unless she is a nurse she has no reason to be in the room with you and the doc.
    (Btw your respoinse is exactly the kind of behavior that has caused me to stop being so active at Turley blog.

  45. leejcaroll – the only why I got was that if I did not fill out the forms and the doctor treated me, he would be out of practice. They did tell me that other patients were unhappy with the new forms, so it is not just me.

    I am not sure how the economy has recovered with 43 million people on welfare. The unemployment rate is a joke since they stopped counting people who have dropped out of the the job market. The real unemployment rate is around 14%.

    BTW, I told an anecdotal story, it was true. What the hell do you want from me?

  46. Good grief, why should the doctor waste time entering the data? The staff that work with the doctors have access to everyone’s medical records, especially the sections in which medical data needs to be added during an office visit. That hasn’t changed since Obamcare, what nonsense. This extreme Obama derangement syndrome is just plain silly.

  47. Paul it was anecdotal and no problem but when you snarked at the end about the president you made it a political statement about the ACA, or the pres. That to me required more explanation.

  48. “I see no reason why a person is entitled to keep his conscience a secret in the exercise of his business.”

    Of course you don’t Jeff; since you don’t accept the idea of natural law or inalienable rights, the very idea of freedom of conscience would be anathema to your ‘moral’ sensibilities.

    We should be approaching this issue and others like it from the perspective of how to protect the natural right of conscience of all parties. Does the customer have a right to ask the baker to accommodate his request? Absolutely. Does the baker have a right to accept or decline that request? Absolutely. Does the customer have the option to find a baker that will accommodate his request? Absolutely. Would both the customer and baker have their rights respected? Absolutely.

    I don’t agree that the baker should just bake the cake; that it’s just business. Either rights are worth defending or they are not. It’s the “light or transient” causes that eventually leave us in the same place as every other culture throughout history. Not standing firm is allowing government to nudge us towards the tyranny previously mentioned.

  49. The problem with these types of laws is that they assume the business is the powerful party and the consumer needs Big Brother to protect him. Nothing could be further from the truth. The whole premise is wrong in the modern era.

    The power dynamics are not the same as they were in the era of monopolistic, predatory Robber Barons. Consumers, collectively, have the power in the relationship. They unconsciously decide which industries, companies, and products succeed and which fail in the marketplace by voluntarily deciding who to do business with. Consumers decide which companies they want to succeed and which they want to fail by voting with their dollars. Kodak was once a major Fortune 500 company. It did not adapt quickly enough to the digital age, and consumers forced it into bankruptcy. Circuit City was forced to completely liquidate. Borders Group, too. There’s a long list of former high flying companies that have been forced into bankruptcy and even forced to liquidate because evil greedy consumers, acting in their own best interest, did not want to buy what they were selling. So they put them out of business.

    Obviously, consumers have all of the power.

    Now, say a consumer walks into a bakery shopping for a cake. He is completely free to turn around and walk out for any reason. Maybe the consumer doesn’t like that the floor is dirty; maybe the lack of items in the display case is a turn off; maybe the baker was on the phone and the annoyed customer got tired of waiting and walked out; or maybe the baker happened to have a photograph on the counter commemorating his homosexual marriage and that made the customer uncomfortable. The customer does not have to say why he doesn’t want to transact. He is free. He is free to turn around and walk out for whatever reason.

    Bakers are in the business of baking and selling what customers want. Only a tiny minority of them will choose to turn away business. And if he turns you away, there are other bakers who will be pleased that you voted with your dollars to support them. They know how ruthless and selfish consumers are. They will put you out of business in a second if you don’t offer them the value they demand.

    Ask the investors, creditors, and thousands of former employees of Kodak, Circuit City and Borders.

  50. Think the component missing on ACA is a government “competitor” to the private insurance market – creating a real free market. Similar to local trash service where the government keeps prices in check through competition witth the private sector.

    So if your rates go up and services go down, consumers can choose an option similar to Medicare. Essentially what members of Congress receive.

    Political partisanship and cronyism is the biggest obstacle blocking this free market system from working for consumers.

  51. Nick,

    You left a few out of your PC Playbook:

    If someone denies American Exceptionalism, he is called “un-American.”

    If someone criticizes American foreign policy, he is accused of “blaming America first.”

    If someone advocates raising taxes on the rich, he is called a “socialist.”

    If someone wishes to regulate business, he is vilified as a “big government tyrant.”

    If someone works hard and goes to an Ivy League college, he is sneered at as an “elitist.”

  52. Paul, your real experience appears to be outside of his/her desired worldview and therefore cannot be allowed to stand. The tolerant left will not tolerate dissent or experiences that differ from desired norm.

    And outright lies must be told to protect the leftist narrative. Example 1: “unemployment down from Bush 10+%”. Fact: max unemployment under Bush was January 2009 (the month Obama was inaugurated, go figure), 7.8%. Mostly fluctuated 4 to 6% during Bush years. US Bureau of Labor Statistics.

  53. Inga – this started as new paperwork to be filled out before I saw the doctor. It is all personal info, not medical info.

  54. This is the slippery slope we’ve been talking about.

    One day, we won’t be able to walk down the street without being arrested for discrimination – for making disparaging remarks about a political party, a silly blonde joke, whatever.

    I would like businesses to be able to decide what they want to do.

    I don’t want a bakery forced to cater to an Anne Coulter event. And if someone has a religious belief that marriage is between a man and a woman, they shouldn’t be forced to support that. It’s their opinion. We are NEVER going to get an entire nation to all think the same.

    Honestly, who would want to eat a cake that the baker was forced to make against his or her will?

    I personally support gay marriage. But I am appalled at the tactics taken by those who support it against those who don’t. People are suddenly not allowed to have opinions that don’t follow the Party Line.

    Anti-discrimination laws were enacted to tear down Jim Crow laws that tried to keep a de facto slave status. This is an attempt to force people to go against their religion, or not be allowed to work.

    Government should get out of the marriage business and only do civil unions, as Rabbi Schmuley has advised. If a couple wants a religious wedding, then they have a choice of denominations that conduct same sex marriages. They don’t need to force any church or temple to do it. If you want a cake baked, then find a bakery who wants to do it. I also would not go to a conservative Middle Eastern bakery and demand they cater a strip party, where they would have to send their innocent daughters as servers. I would not ask an Amish custom carpenter to make an anti-Christian sign. I would not tell a Jewish bakery they had to work on the Sabbath or I would sue.

    If I wanted to have a cake made for a fiscal conservative convention, I am sure that some bakers would turn me down because of their own personal politics. I cannot imagine suing them to make them cater to me with a cake they would have probably spit in. I would just find another baker.

  55. Good grief, why should the doctor waste time entering the data? The staff that work with the doctors have access to everyone’s medical records, especially the sections in which medical data needs to be added during an office visit

    Let me try to give a small lesson in economics here to people who have never been IN business for themselves. (wasting my pixels probably). Previous to the Obamacare mandates that medical practices MUST digitize/computerize their records and comply with a zillion medical codes…..the doctor was able to make notes during and after the meeting with his patient and give to staff to compile at a later time. Take notes, talk to the patient and make some more hand written notes between appointments.

    Due to the complexity of the new process, the time it takes to enter the computerized information and the punitive actions for non compliance, the doctor was no longer able to make hand written notes and could spend his time WITH the patient. Instead he (according to my doctor) needed to have a designated person to take these computerized notes during the meeting. This required an additional body. He actually had to hire two new people to cover this added work load. SO ….additional payroll, payroll taxes, insurance etc etc.

    While increasing the overhead of his office, Obamacare and the Medicaid cuts in reimbursement decreased the income. As well as the decrease the time between submitting insurance and Medicare (Medi-Cal in my state) and getting paid became longer and longer, requiring that the doctor’s practice have a larger working capital reserve in order to meet the expenses of running the practice.

    So….More money to run the practice, less money coming in. There are only so many patients that a doctor can see in a limited amount of time. The options are see more people, spend less time with them…..or……charge more. Since the last one isn’t possible. The first one is the option that most doctors have to take.

    Then as a patient not only do you have the doctor examining you, poking and prodding…..while you are sitting there in your paper shroud in your underwear (or wearing less) you have an additional person typing into a computer who gets to listen in to all the embarrassing, confidential and maybe even gross information that you need to give to the Doctor. Some things that are strictly between the doctor and you are too delicate to be discussed in front of other people. As a result often the patient is unwilling to disclose things that need to be disclosed or unwilling to bare body parts in front of a third party.

    Running a medical practice is a business. Many doctors are just quitting rather than go bankrupt.

    It is a political issue whether some people want to admit it or not. The Obamacare mess is political since it was created and passed by ONE political party. This is what happens when the Government gets involved in the minutia of your life and fine tunes everything. Businesses fail or everything becomes so expensive that you can’t afford the product.

  56. leejcaroll – Obama and the Democrats own Obamacare. With it come new reporting requirements for everyone. This is on him.

  57. This has gone from discussing whether people are free to marry whomever they love, a good thing, to no one way engage in any business or hold a job unless they support gay marriage. Which is a threat.

    I have seen his myself. When a manager at Chick-fil-A fed a homeless man and gave him his own gloves on a cold winter morning, the act was accompanied by harsh criticism that anyone posting the video, taken by a customer, was promoting a hateful company. The owner opposes gay marriage on religious grounds. This was a manager, not the owner. So, now, anyone who works at the company may no longer ever do a good deed without the praise being criticized as glorifying hatred for gays.

  58. Jeff, ChipS worked hard and went to an Ivy League College, the 2nd best actually. He’s not an elitist. Regarding your other lame examples. Firstly, they’re not PC. Secondly, the PC that protects “special” groups hasn’t included white, hetero, males. It never will. So, we can both fire @ will. It’s always open season on you and I. As it should be w/ EVERYONE. Regarding “raising taxes on the rich,” your cult leader is giving his D-Day speech tonight in the full assault in class warfare. I expect some chubbies from the cultist, socialists, big govt., un American, elitists, as they watch The Master[ a reference to the underappreciated Paul Thomas Anderson flick]. If you’re a fan of Anderson, Inherent Vice is a classic of his unique genre. Joaquin is superb.

  59. There was an episode of “Cake Boss” where they were commissioned to make a pornographic cake, which they did. When mom found out she yelled at the Cake Boss and told him he was not to make those any more. Does this fall into this category?

  60. So now we will be required to post our personal beliefs, ALL of them, on the door like the Star of David?

    What if we post what we think will matter in business, and then someone requests a cake glorifying the fur industry. We won’t be able to decline making a bloody, flayed fox cake because we neglected to post that we oppose fur.

  61. Lee:

    “If it is against his conscience it is against his conscience and as much as I abhor that the baker refused a gay couple it is their right to do so but the analogy of could they turn away a black customer, or a black baker a whoite customer based on race, (or Asian, India, etc) does seem apt.”

    Just to clarify, do you support a business owner’s right to refuse service based on conscience, as long as it is not because of a customer’s race? Or are you saying that they cannot refuse, even though you wish they could, because then they would also be allowed to discriminate against race?

  62. This does seem to be a Leftist issue, because it is the Left who is trying to criminalize being conservative, or not following Leftist ideas.

    Now, if the Right tried to close down businesses who didn’t support the Right, then that would be the same.

  63. Karen, I never got into Will and Grace. But, I think Modern Family handles gay issues w/ great humor and wit.

  64. “I have to fill out new paperwork when I go to some of my docs and have had to for years has nothing to do with the ACA. gonna call me a liar now?

    No, just misinformed, and quite incorrect.

    More Paperwork. Complying with [ACA] requirements to report quality measures and patient outcome data will require hiring additional staff and investing in infrastructure to complete the necessary tasks to ensure the highest level of payments. After the 2006 Massachusetts health reform, the employment of administrative personnel in health care grew by more than 18 percent—a rate six times higher than the growth in employment of physicians and nurses.

    …A 2001 study for the American Hospital Association found that hospital officials spent 30 minutes to one hour on paperwork for every hour spent on patient care in a Medicare-funded hospital. For example, one hour of patient care in the emergency room required one hour of paperwork, and one hour of patient care in an acute care unit required 36 minutes of paperwork.

    The ACA has thus far added 109 distinct regulations. The time and effort to comply with these rules and regulations will equal an estimated 190 million hours of paperwork per year imposed on business and the health care industry.

  65. In our practice, this has resulted in each physician spending three to four more hours per week on clerical work compared to when the ACA was passed in 2010.

    That time adds up — and the aggregate effect nationwide is profound. In 2012, physicians spent fully 22 percent of their time performing nonclinical paperwork — displacing the equivalent of 165,000 full-time doctors in a single year, according to one recent report.

    Put another way: The administrative burdens imposed by the ACA and government bureaucracies replaced 165,000 stethoscopes with pencils and pens.

    Starting in 2015, the ACA will effectively force many physicians to adopt so-called Electronic Medical Records (EMR), diverting still more of our time to administrative tasks rather than clinical care.

    Of the 85 percent of physicians who have already implemented EMRs, nearly half say it has detracted from their efficiency in delivering health care. Less than one quarter believe it has helped. For many physicians, such as my wife and I, this can double the amount of time per patient they spend inputting data rather than spending needed time with the patient.

  66. the analogy of could they turn away a black customer, or a black baker a whoite customer based on race, (or Asian, India, etc) does seem apt.”

    It is not apt at all. False comparisons.

    There is a world of difference between refusing to serve someone because of their race or religion or any other reason and being forced to create a work of art, like a cake or painting or photograph, specifically for a person.

    One example is a guy walks into a bakery and buys a dozen donuts out of a case. You can’t refuse to sell donuts. You have made generic donuts and you offer them to everyone who has money to pay.

    The other example is the person who walks into the bakery and demands that you create a 4 tier cake celebrating Hitler (as an example that might be abhorrent to the cake artist) with flowers and swastikas. Make this cake OR ELSE!!!!

    One transaction is basic business. The other is demanding a work of art be created. Forcing against the moral code or religious beliefs of the artist that they make something for you.

  67. Karen,

    You are not allowed to discriminate against renting to blacks if you own an apartment building, but you are not required by law to take a black person as a boarder into your private home. If you hold yourself out as a business, you should be held to a different standard than your home. That is the price of doing business. If your conscience will not permit you to serve gay people or black people, then stay out of business that serves people. You CAN discriminate against people whose political beliefs you do not share. You CANNOT discriminate against characteristics of people over which they had no control, i.e., they were born or inculcated that way.”

  68. Nick,

    Another one for your PC handbook: if someone advocates for gay rights, they are derided as a member of the “Gay Mafia.”

  69. The issue is not whether the conscience allows someone to serve a gay or black person; it’s whether the baker has to accommodate every request by customers. Why would you ever want to live in a country where you are only as free as the majority of the population wants you to be?

    What if the baker refers the customer to another baker known to meet these special requests; is that not acceptable?

  70. This is yet another clear example for why these anti-discrimination laws are immoral and contrary to natural law. When are people going to wake up and realize that the business owner has the right to conduct business or decline business with whoever he wants. It is called freedom of association. If any of you read the article by Thomas Sowell shared recently on this blog, he pointed out how the Jim Crow laws concerning blacks sitting in the back of the bus originated from politics, not a free market. The owners of the companies fought these Jim Crow laws at every chance. It was bad business for them for the private companies and they never wanted these laws. If government would just get out of the way and let people be free, then humble cake shop owners would not face legal problems like this one. So many times in my life I have seen small businesses face tens of thousands of dollars in fines over foolish discrimination claims that had no basis in reality. We need to jettison all anti-discrimination laws immediately.

  71. Darren, I respectfully suggest to you that drawing an X over a homosexual couple on top of a wedding cake is not an expression of hatred. It is a statement about the natural order of life. The person expressing that thought on the cake does not agree with the lying propaganda that gay people have a right to be sexual in any way they want, including ways contrary to nature. He is also making a statement that gay people should not be afforded special protection from the law for their sexual immorality and perverse sexual proclivities.

  72. DBQ:

    If a wedding cake customer says to the baker, “I want 2 men on your standard wedding cake instead of a man and a woman,” you think he will be able to argue that simply putting a man in lieu of a woman is “demanding a work of art be created?”

  73. David,
    You realize if enough people become convinced ALL rights come from government, then the only challenge remaining is to win elections. That would mean elections do have consequen……oops.

  74. Jeff

    Your examples are not relevant to the discussion of whether you can force an artist (baker, sculptor, photographer etc) to create an offensive or morally repugnant work of art.

    If your conscience will not permit you to serve gay people or black people, then stay out of business that serves people.

    We already have laws forbidding rent discrimination and other discrimination in serving the general public.

    The difference is in the creative expression or free speech of the artist versus just making a product offered to anyone. Ice cubes versus an ice sculpture.

    Building a house is not necessarily a creative expression, even though something is created, so a contractor can’t refuse to build a home for discriminatory reasons. He can refuse you for other reasons and doesn’t have to say why. Maybe you just are a too difficult client. We have refused to do work for people in our business, because they have trouble written all over them. I have refused to take on clients in my (previous) financial planning practice.

    My stock phrasing, was something along these lines.:-)

    “Mr. and Mrs. Client. We have been working together now for some time (no we haven’t because you just won’t get your head out of your a$$ and pay attention or follow my advice….and you argue with everything I say), unfortunately I just don’t think that we are compatible as a team. My philosophy as an advisor doesn’t seem to be compatible with yours (I want to make you money and you seem to want to lose it and ignore all of my professional advice.) So, I believe that it might be for the best if you found an advisor that can give you the time and attention that you deserve. So I regretfully think that you should search for another advisor as I can’t service your account any longer. (Find some other poor schumck who has more patience that I do and don’t let the door hit you and your fat portfolio on the way out.) Followed by a letter stating similar concepts.

    Granted, I wasn’t creating a work of art, but the principle is the same. My right to refuse to work with someone.

  75. Jeff Silberman wrote: “If your conscience will not permit you to serve gay people or black people, then stay out of business that serves people.”

    Oh great! Now people are not free to earn a living if they do not agree with homosexual behavior. Kind of reminds me about something in the Bible that nobody can buy or sell if they do not receive the mark of the beast.

    Jeff Silberman wrote: “You CANNOT discriminate against characteristics of people over which they had no control.”

    You really believe that lie? Nobody has been born gay. NOBODY. Sexuality evolves over a series of choices. It is based upon not just genetic proclivities involving the senses of sexual pleasure, but also upon the environment and cognitive choices. The monozygotic twin studies in homosexuality prove this conclusively.

    Everybody can control their sexuality. There is nothing defective about gays that make them unable to control their sexual urges.

  76. Jeff…..I take it you have never made a wedding cake. There is a great deal of art involved.

    Go to Costco then and get a cake.

  77. Every situation is totally unique. If a couple lives in a large city they may have their choice of many vendors and minority groups wouldn’t want to spend their money on businesses that discriminate against them so not as much of an issue.

    However, If the person lives in a rural area and the closet town is far away with only one or two bakeries in town and both refuse to serve them. It’s also likely that not only bakeries but caterers, photographers and other wedding vendors will also refuse service to them. The Civil Rights Act was created for this type of discrimination that treats some Americans as 2nd Class citizens.

    For example, a bakery could ban “private parts” on a cake that would apply to all customers (regardless of race, religion or sex), but they can’t ban a gay couple from kissing while allowing it for a straight couple.

    As far as the private business argument to discriminate: every private business also benefits from public roads, public police protection, public education, public fire protection services and other government infrastructure. Since they don’t exist in a private vacuum they should treat every customer the same.

  78. Jeff doesn’t seem to know the difference between race and sexual orientation. To me, one is a choice. This is why it is so important for the gay agenda to remove the idea that sexuality is a choice for once it is done, it opens the door even wider to claim victimhood.

  79. “If your conscience will not permit you to serve gay people or black people, then stay out of business that serves people.

    That is what Nick meant by “the Gay Mafia.”
    Thanks for the perfect example.

  80. Jim22:

    Equal marriage rights is almost the exact same argument as interracial marriage and critics used the Bible to argue against those marriages as well.

    Real conservatives support “maximum” individual freedom – as long as one citizen, doesn’t infringe on another citizen’s constitutional rights.

    Freedom means you have to respect other people’s freedoms as well.

  81. Ross – “As far as the private business argument to discriminate: every private business also benefits from public roads, public police protection, public education, public fire protection services and other government infrastructure. Since they don’t exist in a private vacuum they should treat every customer the same.”

    So you ignore the fact that these business’ pay taxes for all of those services.

  82. Ross – “Freedom means you have to respect other people’s freedoms as well.”

    Absolutely! I’m glad you agree that the cake owners have the freedom from being forced to do business with everyone.

  83. Ross “Equal marriage rights is almost the exact same argument as interracial marriage”

    So you are admitting that they aren’t the same.

  84. “Freedom means you have to respect other people’s freedoms as well.

    Except for bakers, photographers, and other “businesses that serve people.”
    (See Jeff above for details.)

  85. Ross – To be clear, my solution to all of this is follow the money. Remove the govt. from marriage by removing it from the tax code. The real reason the gay community is annoyed is that they don’t get a tax break not that a Catholic doesn’t recognize their “marriage”. Remove marriage from the tax code and suddenly no one cares about what anyone does in their bedroom.

  86. Physicians for National Healthcare (socialists for single payer), reporting on an OCT 2014 study in International Journal of Health Services:

    “The average U.S. doctor spends 16.6 percent of his or her working hours on non-patient-related paperwork, time that might otherwise be spent caring for patients. And the more time doctors spend on such bureaucratic tasks, the unhappier they are about having chosen medicine as a career.

    …They found that the average doctor spent 8.7 hours per week, or 16.6 percent of their working time, on administration. This excludes patient-related tasks such as writing chart notes, communicating with other doctors and ordering lab tests. It includes tasks such as billing, obtaining insurance approvals, financial and personnel management, and negotiating contracts.

    In total, patient-care physicians spent 168.4 million hours on such administrative tasks in 2008. The authors estimate that the total cost of physician time spent on administration in 2014 will amount to $102 billion.

  87. “The real reason the gay community is annoyed is that they don’t get a tax break not that a Catholic doesn’t recognize their “marriage”.

    No, they want Catholics to be forced to perform gay marriages, too.

  88. Jim22:

    Businesses write the checks but businesses never pay any taxes. All business expenses, including taxes, are passed onto the consumers. Business income is gross revenues minus expenses.

    Consumers pay taxes, businesses are only the check-writers! If you want to tax the rich you do it on the personal side of the tax ledger.

  89. “The Roman Catholic bishop of Calgary, Alberta, Fred Henry, was threatened with litigation and charged with a human-rights violation after he wrote a letter to local churches outlining standard Catholic teaching on marriage.

  90. Jim22:

    Addresses that at the above 1:12 pm post. If the bakery switches to a “sole-proprietorship” business license and loses it’s “corporate veil” protections it has more freedom to discriminate.

  91. Jeff wrote:

    “You CAN discriminate against people whose political beliefs you do not share.”

    This is true in some cases, but not all. For example, in the District of Columbia, it is unlawful to discriminate against someone based on “political affiliation.” D.C. is an extreme example (it has the most “protected categories” of any jurisdiction), but your statement is not 100% accurate.

  92. This exactly right. The gay mafia is going to demand that he church perform the sacrament of marriage for same sex couples or face devastating fines and penalties. The Church will not be able to perform their sacred rights unless they conform to take most outrageous demands and whims of the most far out fringe.

    By not standing up for the barks and photographers and others being targeted for destruction we are fostering and enabling the coming attack on religion. Not just the Catholics of course. The Mormons and Orthodox Jews as well. Everyone except the Muslims because they are afraid of them.

    We are already half way down the slippery slope.

  93. I wonder if the baker could refuse on the grounds that he could be exposed to being arrested for being an accomplice to a potential hate crime?

    Or, perhaps he could just increase the price of the cake by $1000 or more, saying the additional charge is to cover the cost of the damage to his business reputation if he complies with the request. A simple accounting procedure that sets prices based upon actual and anticipated costs.

    Two ways to fight the system using the system . . .

  94. Seriously, is it’s no surprise that the anti science rightists don’t believe that homosexuality is determined during development, or is possibly even genetic. That is the kind of regressive ideology that is all too common in the conservative world.

  95. If churches turn down 100% of government funding including IRS tax deductions for religious institutions, ADA federal funds, etc. and pay a higher non-church tax rate – they can discriminate almost without limit.

    Once they accept taxpayer money, they can’t then discriminate against those same gay taxpayers. It’s really simple, don’t take the money.

  96. It is amazing how liberals will go to any lengths and contortions to impose their views. Why can’t a business just decline to serve anyone the want without giving a reason.

    Here is an example. In NYC there are many places that refuse services for a number of reasons. Right now in Williamsburg there are several Orthodox Jewish stores that refuse to serve half naked hipster chicks because it offends their religious sensibility. Ditto some cafés and Muslim owned businesses on Altantic Avenue. I was turned away once from a joint in Brighton Beach because I wasn’t Russian. Which is fine by me. It was his place. I didn’t own it. I didn’t own him. But you see the government and the fascist progressive left think they own everything and can tell everyone what to do. Even the size of a cup of soda.

    What happened to freedom. I thought we live in America Land of the Free?

  97. DBQ:

    Even small businesses pass all costs onto their customers or they go out of business.

    Sole-proprietorships don’t receive 100% tax deductions like corporations receive, but those costs get passed onto the consumer even in a sole-proprietorship.

  98. Jeff, As stated previously, “Gay Mafia” derives from the gay community and is not a pejorative. Actually, it is said w/ pride. And the word “rights” is a loaded word. What you may consider a right, I may not. And, since we are a nation of laws, what the courts decide is a right, is the only right that is recognized. There are many people who believe there is a right to not be offended. THANKFULLY, that is not the case…yet. I surmise you are one of these folks who believe in the right to not be offended?

  99. The ultimate in regressivism is to clamor for a return to the dark ages where the rights of the people were whatever the government deemed them to be.

  100. DBQ, I worked @ The Drake Hotel in Chicago. Their Bakery Chef was an Austrian w/ many awards. He made cakes for many high end weddings in Chicago, many not even held @ The Drake. The man was an artist by any definition. I would sometimes watch him work. I love watching artists create.

  101. Ross you are the perfect example of the fascist progressive left. I am sure if you put that to a vote you would lose overwhelmingly much as many pro same sex marriage laws lost in the popular vote. Then some unelected progressive fascist judge would over rule the democratically expressed view of the people by finding some new penumbra or other to impose his views. Thank you for expressly stating the end game of trying to punish if not destroy any church that does not capitulate to the demands of people like you.

    I salute you for your honesty.

  102. Pogo,

    on 1, January 20, 2015 at 2:35 pmdavidm2575

    Jeff Silberman wrote: “You CANNOT discriminate against characteristics of people over which they had no control.”
    ___________________________

    David said…
    “You really believe that lie? Nobody has been born gay. NOBODY. Sexuality evolves over a series of choices. It is based upon not just genetic proclivities involving the senses of sexual pleasure, but also upon the environment and cognitive choices. The monozygotic twin studies in homosexuality prove this conclusively.

    Everybody can control their sexuality. There is nothing defective about gays that make them unable to control their sexual urges.”

  103. I saw this recently and it would be apropos to this discusion:

    A LIBERAL CONUNDRUM: If a Muslim barber refuses on religious grounds to cut the hair of a lesbian, whose side does a liberal take?

  104. The Muslim. While I’ve seen some big, nasty lesbians in my life, I’ve never seen any cut off someone’s head. That was a no brainer.

  105. Sole-proprietorships don’t receive 100% tax deductions like corporations receive, but those costs get passed onto the consumer even in a sole-proprietorship.

    Ross I will agree that costs get passed onto the consumer. That is basic economics 101. Duh.

    Corporations pay taxes. Big corporations pay LOTS of taxes. Where you get the idea that the don’t pay taxes is beyond me.

    http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-corporations-are-taxed-30157.html

    These are the top/most common deductions allowed to corporations. Small businesses, sole proprietors get to take “most” of these deductions as well.

    A corporation is the only type of business that must pay its own income taxes on profits. In contrast, partnerships, sole proprietorships, and limited liability companies (LLCs) are not taxed on business profits; instead, the profits “pass through” the businesses to their owners, who report business income or losses on their personal tax returns. This s for C Corps. S Corps are different.

    http://smallbusiness.chron.com/top-10-corporate-tax-deductions-10403.html

    The liberal left wants to beat up on businesses, job creators and want to micromanage what is left of the battered businesses.

    Until you have been in business for yourself, I suggest you really don’t have a clue.

  106. Ross – you need a good Econ course. Businesses pay taxes that are not passed on to consumers. Yes, some taxes, like sales taxes are allowed to be passed directly on to the consumer, but must be paid regardless of how it is done added on or included in the original price. Any business that makes a profit pays taxes on the profit (assuming there is one) at the end of its fiscal year. What remains can be dispersed to shareholders or partners.

  107. Inga – you have the Masters from Marquette. Is homosexuality caused during procreation or development? And which parent is responsible?

  108. It’s only a conundrum if your worldview denies inalienable rights. If you were to believe the right of conscience is inalienable, then you wouldn’t need to do mental gymnastics to ‘legally’ impose your beliefs on anyone else.

  109. Reference: Electronic Health Records. These are NOT a phenomena of the PPACA. It predates the ACA. The ACA merely mandates it apparently…I am sure it is helpful to the family practitioner MD out in Eagle Crotch, ND, population 105, somehow…or at least through bankruptcy court. Every shred of my medical records for the past dozen years have been electronically recorded on digital media, available on line to both my physicians and to me, and anyone to whom I assigned proxy rights. The prior 20 years of manual records are also referenced in the newer media by annotation.

    Reference: New manual reports required of patients. Now this is a phenomena of the PPACA and it entirely redundant for anyone not a brand new patient somewhere. I have been with the same providers for 30+ years and yet during 2014 I had new fancy forms with all kinds of questions to fill out by hand…no digital submissions. Like Paul C said it is strange the information already on record is asked for again? Manually entered. All this redundant crud has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with nurse entered or physician entered actual medical data during a visit, procedure, or recovery period. It is for someone else.

    For whom is it intended…e.g., my hospital and physician network already has it all, so who else is looking? On one of the last questionnaires I was asked which of about a dozen race choices what I was. I entered “Homo Erectus.” Done that twice now and so far no anthropologists have called me about it.

    This phenomena is a relatively new characteristic for government…as I have mentioned on other threads, the demand for manual entry work by the lowest levels or ranks, including citizens per se, is increasing, and now nearly double that of a decade ago…and that’s just for the civil servants. Perchance we should be grateful the senior wonks in the ACA administration by H&HS haven’t a clue.

    I take certain glee in thinking that once my manually entered redundancies are bundled up and sent off to some H&HS office cavern that they’ll add another “race”…e.g., “Homo Erectus” to the list. I was thinking about adding, under “other medical procedures you’ve had” a line about the surgical removal of my extra two peni$ but figured that might provoke trouble.

    All said and done I am actually glad the H&HS folks don’t yet have the capability to glean my digital records…now some GS-07 in IT might have it, no doubt does have it, but none of the busy bodies in the most senior ranks have a clue how to mine databases. If the senior rank person wants the info, they will order the GS-07 to prepare it for them, manually, then send up on a manually prepared Powerpoint deck….filing away the paper manually prepared reports for eternity. When I said we are rapidly approaching a government that operates on the graphic equivalent of Twitter….I was not kidding.

    Have I made my point that all these new manual hand written forms you now must fill out are NOT really for your medical care? We should wonder just what they are for in reality?

    Groty said …

    The problem with these types of laws is that they assume the business is the powerful party and the consumer needs Big Brother to protect him. Nothing could be further from the truth. The whole premise is wrong in the modern era.

    The rest of your remark was on the money as well. Sadly, even if it wanted to do so, “Big Brother” cannot really protect you. I’ve worked there and it is struggle enough to deal with the imbeciles appointed over you…help Joe Sixpack? Whot? No time. Now to the back of the line with you…Next!

    PS: I wonder if Rabel has actually gotten resolution from the IRS yet over that 5 cent boo boo?

  110. Paul Schulte,

    Not too long ago businesses were allowed write off “lunch” as a tax deduction. Taxpayers paid for the tax deduction and consumers paid the rest of the bill.

    That “lunch” was filed as a business expense so it didn’t count as income. The IRS and state tax agencies finally removed that perk except for some expenses while travelling on out of town business.

    Most of us have to buy our own lunch.

  111. It seems to me that this lady is a true Christian. One who refuses to insult anyone based on her beliefs. Can’t remember the scripture, but it says if you call someone raca you may be guilty of hell. So the question is are “those” Christians violating this Christian bakers religious freedom rights?

  112. Paul C said …

    Any business that makes a profit pays taxes on the profit (assuming there is one) at the end of its fiscal year. What remains can be dispersed to shareholders or partners.

    In a normal world. However, one day if our betters enact a national VAT tax businesses will owe & pay the tax even if there are no profits in a given year…and they will take it “from” their shareholders and partners purported equity.

  113. Trooper York:

    For example in the state of Florida, some religious schools accept federal ADA grants to teach disabled children.

    If some of those school officials find out the parents are gay, they permanently kick the disabled child out of that school – a genuinely traumatic experience for a disabled child in grade school. The school is punishing the child for the non-crime and non-wrongdoing of the parent – pretty evil stuff!

    The gay parents pay federal taxes like any other Florida taxpayer. Why should they have to pay taxes to be treated like a 2nd Class citizen?

    The government is not intruding on the religious institution when it fines it $11,000 per offense – the school accepted the taxpayer money and there are strings attached when you take taxpayer dollars – you can’t be a bigot!

  114. Ross … even better, the reason the GSA got in to some much trouble over that Las Vegas fandango was their own rule, enforced on everyone else in government, that you may not even furnish coffee and donuts to any gathering that is made up of less than 51% of persons outside your offices. They tried to say since it was a general GSA wide gathering everyone was from “outside” the office. Whoops.

    You just must know that due to my periodic experiences in emergency responses while sleeping the back of a truck eating PBJ’s culled from some bodega still open, their troubles delighted me. Dang it, I once had the mayor’s wife (dressed scantily and quite pretty) in a large coastal city offer me a Martini at 10:00 AM no less, while I worked on a piece of machinery near-by….had to turn that one down. Life just isn’t fair!:-)

  115. .You wrote:”… Instead he (according to my doctor) needed to have a designated person to take these computerized notes during the meeting. This required an additional body. He actually had to hire two new people to cover this added work load. SO ….additional payroll, payroll taxes, insurance etc etc.”

    I am not sure where your doctor gets this, that he is required to have a designated person. None of the doctors with whom I deal have ever had a person in the room there solely for the purpose to take notes. The doc has always been the one, in my personal experience, who enters the info on his computer.

  116. Justice Holmes

    Free speech, remember? There may be a difference but we are guaranteed the RIGHT by the Constitution to hate anyone we want. We may not be able to discriminate against them in businesses, but we can say or write anything we want about them as long it isn’t slander/libel. So that baker HAS to write that on the cake if the customer wants her to, even if she doesn’t agree with it. Oh, I forgot, you Liberals believe only you deserve freedom of speech.

  117. Paul:

    Put another way, if a single mother made an annual salary of $30,000 and essential expenses (groceries, clothes, vacations, gas for her car, rent, utilities, etc.) totaled $25,000 – if she were a corporation her net income would be $5,000 – she would little or no taxes at all.

    Not saying it should be that way, just showing how corporations work. Most of what is not written off on taxes is passed onto consumers.

    Not knocking corporations, but consumers deserve most the credit for paying taxes – which they rarely receive credit for.

  118. I am not sure where your doctor gets this, that he is required to have a designated person

    I didn’t say required to hire a designated person. Read carefully. He needed to hire.

    Because…….

    1. His other staff is already busy dealing with patients, billing, scheduling, insurance questions, pharmacy refills etc etc etc not only for him but for the other doctors in the practice.

    2. He doesn’t have the time to do computer input himself while talking to and examining patients. He would rather actually deal with his patients instead of dealing with a computer screen. We as patients would rather have this too. Personal attention.

    3. There is no time in between patients to sit at a computer, look up the codes in the giant code book, and enter notes as well as prescription orders.

    4. To write notes while in the room with the patient and then transcribe to the computer is a redundancy. He is peddling as fast as he can and doesn’t have time to do two clerical jobs at once. He would rather be a…..gasp…..doctor.

    5. Now that Obamacare is kicking in with the computerized records requirement, it isn’t an option anymore. It is either buy the expensive computer system and enter all the information or GET FINED and have your income cut down.

    6. His other staff is all busy and it is not feasible to have them or some of them, attend the patient meetings or do computer input all day long. So he NEEDED to hire some additional workers.

    I swear…..it’s like I’m talking to second graders here. Sheesh 😦

  119. leejcaroll … your comment above about note taking reminds me of the day my care system (a major teaching hospital) switched to a new database for digital record keeping. My PCP had a very nice screen with about 6 point fonts (squinting required) asking him to verify, via me, all manner of information. The funny part was the large font instructions to him to look me in the eyes while talking to me…e.g., enter tinsy check marks in appointed tinsy squares and notes by hand while not looking at the screen. I am positive the dude who wrote those instructions had to be an HR person who probably still used Windows 3.1 at home….and likely was a prior “fed.”

    That new system has worked well, now that it is past the start up phase…however, given there was already an Oracle based Db of digital electronic records, why did it not occur to the new folks to utilize the ODBC function of their new Db to glean info from the old? I did this for a living, more or less, with four global US Army databases…never “re-entered” a single field in any corollary Db I designed. One step forward, two steps back?

  120. Ross – to deduct a business lunch you had to discuss business during the lunch. Technically, it was a working lunch. I could not go to lunch by myself and write it off.

  121. Ross – those gay parents and their children will be just as well served at a public school which will also get the ADA money. What is the problem? I lost a job at a Catholic school because I was living with my soon to be wife, but not yet married. Those were the rules, so I did not take it personally.

  122. .Lee:

    “If it is against his conscience it is against his conscience and as much as I abhor that the baker refused a gay couple it is their right to do so but the analogy of could they turn away a black customer, or a black baker a whoite customer based on race, (or Asian, India, etc) does seem apt.”

    Just to clarify, do you support a business owner’s right to refuse service based on conscience, as long as it is not because of a customer’s race? Or are you saying that they cannot refuse, even though you wish they could, because then they would also be allowed to discriminate against race?

    My analogy wasn;t stated properly. I did not mean race vis a vis anti discrimination laws but using that as their reason to refuse service. It is not as easy as some here would make it seem, oh those liberals they abhor free speech, oh those conservatives everyone should be able to discriminate.
    Making cakes can be an art (watch the TV shows amazing wedding cakes for instance) but they are offering a bakery service – just offering to personalize it.
    Honestly I have trouble with this from both sides. On the one hand if your conscience is against what the person wants you should be able to refuse. On the other as long as it is not pornographic or obscene the customer has the right to ask for it. Despoite Nick and others grouping us all in one lump as a liberal I do think the baker should have the right of refusal. He will quickly find out if he loses customers from the word of mouth if his decision was a good one or not..
    I don’t recall who wrote it upthread but the best answer is suggest another bakery. That way the baker can refuse while still trying to help the customer.
    I find the example of a Hitler cake much easier to deal with. I think there is almost no one who would find that an acceptable assignment. It is much harder when it is an issue that actively divides people

  123. Comments like it is liking talking to second graders does nothing to make you seem more credible just like a playground bully.
    Maybe that is your doctors experience however,

    DISCUSSION
    Our analysis indicates that the net financial return to a
    health care organization from using an ambulatory electronic
    medical record system is positive across a wide
    range of assumptions. The primary areas of benefit are
    from reductions in drug expenditures, improved utilization
    of radiology tests, improvements in charge capture,
    and decreased billing errors. Benefits increase as more
    features are used and as the time horizon is lengthened. In
    sensitivity analyses, the net return was positive except
    when the most pessimistic assumptions were used.
    Savings to the health care organization are obtained
    under both capitated and fee-for-service reimbursement,
    but these savings depend on the reimbursement mix: the
    greater the proportion of capitated patients, the greater
    the total return. Among fee-for-service patients, a large
    portion of the savings from improved utilization may accrue
    to the payer instead of the provider organization. As
    a result, payers may be motivated to offer incentives to
    providers to use an electronic medical record to help control
    costs” http://nyehealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Wang_EMRCostBenefit.pdf
    Noyt anecdotal like your doctor but an actual study.

    and another Implementing an EMR System: One Clinic’s Experience persp[ctive: The power of an EMR

    Implementing an EMR system in a clinical practice is a daunting task. It requires good planning, strong physician leadership and supportive staff. The most immediate benefits of our EMR system have been accurate medication lists, legible notes and prescriptions, immediately available charts, decreased chart pulls and lower transcription costs. We are still just beginning to scratch the surface of what’s possible, but we would never go back to paper again.
    http://www.aafp.org/fpm/2003/0500/p37.html

    adults actually do their homework rather then rely solely on anecdote. Geesh.

  124. Ross – if so little income was derived from the corporate income tax I am sure they would get rid of it.

  125. Paul Schulte:

    I think the Office of Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of Justice enforces federal ADA fraud.

    The Florida schools in question committed a federal crime because there are requirements that the school can’t discriminate if it receives taxpayer dollars – that is a condition of receiving the money.

    It should outrage everyone that any school punishes any child – not for the actions of the disabled child – but for the parents sexual orientation. The children did nothing wrong.

  126. leejcaroll – I have no problem with a computerized record system. However, I take exception to having to give them the same information again and again. This time they demanded information on my race. That has nothing to do with the care I am being given. This is an indicator that Obamacare is collecting data from the doctors for some purpose that has nothing to do with my healthcare.

  127. The bakery was asked to make a Bible-shaped cake with an anti-gay slur and owner Marjorie Silva refused. The customer brought a complaint to the Colorado Civil Rights Commission and won.

    This does not appear to be at all accurate – at least from the only reference cited. DORA doesn’t appear to have reached any decision yet and is merely asking for the baker’s response to a complaint.

    The Civil Rights Commission does not appear to have commented in any way.

  128. Savings to the health care organization are obtained
    under both capitated and fee-for-service reimbursement,
    but these savings depend on the reimbursement mix: the
    greater the proportion of capitated patients, the greater
    the total return

    From your article, which is over 10 years old and does not deal with the issue of the Obamacare medical records mandate. Do you even read the stuff you link to?

    So for a large organization, like a hospital or very large medical group the possible benefits of electronic records might create some savings.

    However, they state that the greater proportion of patients who are capitated the greater the return or savings.

    You might be wondering what captiated is. Probably not since you didn’t read the article. Here.

    Capitation refers to a form of healthcare payment system. In a capitation model, a provider or hospital is paid by the insurer (or other payer) an amount per patient during a period of time.

    An example of a capitation model would be an insurer / payer who would negotiate to pay a doctor $500 per year per person in a group. For 1,000 people, the insurer would pay the doctor $500,000 and the doctor would be expected to supply all services necessary to those 1,000 people.

    Since most family medical or general medical groups do not use this model, your article is meaningless.

    This is similar the fee for advisory arrangement as an RIA that I had with some clients. Of course if you know that you will have a steady supply of fees or capitation, you can better control your costs and realize savings from investments in technology. A regular doctor doesn’t usually have that luxury.

    However, since many doctors are going the concierge route….membership only….fee for service…. then perhaps this could be a cost benefit that they could look into. However, that is a completely different discussion.

  129. leejcaroll – if I get run over by a bus, I can anecdotally tell you I was hit by the bus, I do not have to list stats for buses hitting pedestrians in the US for the last 20 years.

  130. DBQ, Don’t you love it when folks like Ross, who have obviously never run a biz, lectures those like us who have, on how they should be run. LOL!

  131. Jude – putting something on the cake (decorating) the cake is usually part of the package in buying a cake. I bought a cake for my brother and sister-in-law’s 50th wedding anniversary. The frosting and message came with the price of the cake.

  132. “CONCLUSION: Implementation of an electronic medical record system in primary care can result in a positive financial return on investment to the health care organization. The magnitude of the return is sensitive to several key factors.”

    Bellevue, after 6 years and nearly $260k, the EMR system was in place and only then were the providers ready to return to normal business hours.

    Of course in the first example we should completely ignore the word “CAN” as well as the notion the study is “sensitive to several key factors”.

    Let’s completely ignore anecdotal evidence provided by an actual doctor from an actual practice.

  133. Ross – do you have a cite that these Florida schools committed or were charged with fraud? Actually, this would be a discrimination case. The child is the client, not the parents. And the parents are not part of a protected class.

  134. Paul C said …

    This is an indicator that Obamacare is collecting data from the doctors for some purpose that has nothing to do with my healthcare.

    You are correct, of course. Just be grateful they (H&HS) are digitally clueless (witness the original Db for the roll out) and require manual pen & paper reports. If they had a clue it could be far worse. I suggest you enter “White Samoan Native” under “other” next time…or maybe “Homo Erectus” like me. Then there will two of us in the massive paper pile in DC. It’s mean, of course, because it will perplex the GS-07 trying to fulfill the demands of his SES bosses. No column for the entry…oh, my:-)

  135. EMR in a huge healthcare network makes sense for several reasons, but it won’t save money.

    EMR is terrible for small groups and solo practices, and it won’t save money.

    Money is not saved by any technology unless it can increase worker productivity.
    This means that I can either see more patients per hour or bill more per hour for the same patients.

    Every other ‘savings’ cited is the usual illusory vapor that doesn’t end up as an actual accounting item on a financial balance statement.
    More like ‘good will’ or some such.
    The cost, however, well that a real measurable effect on net income.

    Show me real balance sheet with an EMR actually saving money, and I’ll admit I am wrong.

  136. Paul Schulte,

    Guilt-by-association is both illegal and un-American. The U.S. Constitution protects “individual” rights, you can’t punish one citizen based on the actions of another citizen.

    You can contact Florida Attorney Genera Pam Bondi or the Office of Civil Rights for the current number of open investigations of ADA fraud by private religious schools. The ACLU of Florida is another great resource.

  137. Aridog – your provider has to add the information first and since they have seen you they might change the information anyway. Before we allowed students to be bi-racial, they always had to pick a race, to pick one was to deny the other, some would refuse to make a decision. We were required to pick a race for them. We always picked the one that would get us the most money.:)

  138. The ongoing IT costs in maintaining and upgrading EMRs, including protecting the data and complying with government mandates, are huge and escalating.

    Paper records merely needed storage.

    I love using my EMR.
    But it costs money, lots of money, and saves very little money, mostly theoretically.

  139. The Azucar Bakey has been found to have broken discrimination laws by refusing to make an anti-same-sex cake.

    I did a double check through Google. You’re simply wrong on the facts, Professor. No determination has been made by anyone – nor does a determination against the bakery appear even remotely likely in this case.

    Even the Daily Mail didn’t go this far, and they are renowned for manufactured controversy.

  140. Is this story true Ross or this just another lie like the Rolling Stone rape case? Why send us to search for it if you have the details? Or did you just pull this out of your ass as usual?

  141. Lesson from the NHS:

    “An abandoned NHS patient record system has so far cost the taxpayer nearly £10bn, with the final bill for what would have been the world’s largest civilian computer system likely to be several hundreds of millions of pounds higher, according a highly critical report from parliament’s public spending watchdog.

    MPs on the public accounts committee said final costs are expected to increase beyond the existing £9.8bn because new regional IT systems for the NHS, introduced to replace the National Programme for IT, are also being poorly managed and are riven with their own contractual wrangles.

    When the original plan was abandoned the total bill was expected to be £6.4bn.

    This saga is one of the worst and most expensive contracting fiascos in the history of the public sector.

    “The department [of health]’s latest estimate of £9.8bn leaves out the future costs of Lorenzo or the potential large future costs arising from the department’s termination of Fujitsu’s contract for care records systems in the South of England.

  142. Even if it is true I don’t accept your premise. What if it was an incestous couple that had a child in their school? Is that religious school required to have people who violate every tenet of their faith be a part of their community? How about a Nazi family? Would a black churches school have to accept them? Or is it only certain special groups?

    Would you require a Madrassa accept Jewish families?

    I didn’t think so. You liberals won’t even force them to accept a cartoon.

  143. If I had a business dealing with weddings I’d tell them I was booked or out of town. You can discuss the cake prior to deciding. It’s a game, but I don’t like anybody being forced to do something they don’t want to do, period.

    Does the right to assemble also mean right not to assemble?

    Gay activists have messed up gays who don’t want all this brouhaha. Bakeries having no problem with gays should be frequented. And there are gay people and gay people. Some of these weddings look like the city zoo. I don’t care if you are gay. I don’t want to know what you are. You are a human being. That’s it!

    The government is too much in our lives. Take your tax money and go!

    Also, instead of deciding everyone should go to college free, we should recognize the changes in our economy. Young people should have some counseling at the beginning of high school about what interests them. I had a friend who wanted to be a nurse since she was 10. There were so many wasted hours in classes that had nothing about nursing.

    Math has completely changed. We simply use machines. Why are we teaching algebra to someone who doesn’t need it for their future career? And if they aren’t good at it, they won’t be better at Trig. In addition to engineers, we need plumbers, mechanics, electricians.

    College isn’t for everyone and community college is just a two-year extension of high school. What about physical skills? If a young girl is a good dancer, teach her more of that instead of gym or art.

    Why can’t educators think outside the box? Isn’t the goal to graduate a productive person? How about interning in summer for credit? Work with a plumbing company or electrical company.

    I like pay to read. Why not? If someone who doesn’t like reading is given two or three really good books, he’ll learn why we read. The optimal time to teach reading is four. Why are we waiting until six?

    Yes, I’m on my bandwagon. Obama wants more money for education. I want more bang for my buck. Why did my parents go to parent night? Not because it was required. But apparently lots of parents should. So make a law. We’ve got thousands of them, why not one more?

    These are our kids. They have to run this place someday. Not learning is bad for all of us. No plumbers, no electricians and we are toast (uncooked).

    If he doesn’t wear his watch or wedding ring tonight, he’s Muslim, true?

  144. Pardon my skipping to the end.

    Public accommodation was intended to cover places that could accommodate you like restaurants and hotels. Not extras like bakeries and photographers.

    What the federal government is allowed to shoehorn under a Constitution that was never intended to cover is criminal.

  145. We Reserve The Right To Refuse Gay Cakes To Anyone. (period)

    We Reserve The Right To Refuse Straight Cakes To Any Jake.

  146. DBQ wrote: “As a small business owner, under a Sub Chapter S Corp structure…”

    Thanks for responding to that remark. I rolled my eyes so much, that when about to respond, I thought, nah, what’s the use. He probably doesn’t even understand the difference between an S corp and a C corp, and I’m not going to hold his hand through this. People with a liberal bent spend so much time demonizing corporations they have no idea what a corporation is or how they pay taxes. Heck, we also are made into tax collectors by the government, and not by choice. It deceives the public into thinking that the business takes the money from them and the government gives it back to them!

  147. I was an S Corp for 22 years when I ran my agency. I was a sole prop prior to that. I found the biggest advantage w/ the S Corp status being liability protection. Thankfully, I was never sued or had a work comp claim.

  148. Inga wrote: “… it’s no surprise that the anti science rightists don’t believe that homosexuality is determined during development, or is possibly even genetic. That is the kind of regressive ideology that is all too common in the conservative world.”

    Excuse me but I am not anti-science. I have earned several degrees in the biological sciences. I have taught numerous biology classes at the university level for 5 years. I have several publications in peer reviewed scientific journals. I have taught genetics too, at the university level.

    There is a genetic component, as I mentioned previously, but it is not the sole component. If every person were born gay as you contend, then in every identical twin where one is gay, so would the other one be gay because they are genetically identical. Truth is that there is only about a 50% concordance rate.

    Given that being gay is characterized by extremely high rates of promiscuity, it is likely that the genetic component may be related to having heightened senses of sexual pleasure and gratification.

    Another point in fact is that people would not change their sexual identity. Many times a woman will say she is a lesbian only to years late switch and say she is not a lesbian anymore. Sometimes a gay man will do the same thing. Sometimes a man will live until 50 years old, like Clive Davis, through several marriages, always being attracted only to women, but then later switch and decide he is gay and wants a monogamous relationship with a man.

    The idea that people are either gay or straight is a myth. Every sexual study out there deals with a continuum of sexuality. The gay activists who perpetuate the myth that people are either gay or straight always criticize such studies by complaining about who they designate into the homosexual category and who is considered straight. Just doing that is almost impossible from an objective standard. They do the best they can. The Bell and Weinberg study uses the Kinsey scale of sexuality ranging from 1 to 6. No studies that I know use a binomial gay or straight categorization because that defies reality.

  149. david, Unfortunately you don’t get your valuable time back responding to vapidity from people w/ nothing but time. C’est la vie.

  150. Ross wrote: “Sole-proprietorships don’t receive 100% tax deductions like corporations receive…”

    LOL! I wish my corporation received a 100% tax deduction. What IRS code are you reading dude? I want a copy of it.

  151. Lee – all you have to do is call your doctor and ask him or her if Obamacare caused more paperwork.

    Obamacare doubled my premiums, increased my deductible 1100%, slashed and burned doctor choice, and destroyed drug formulary.

    So, I now pay as much as a mortgage for a 2nd home for insurance that used to cost me a few hundred a month, but I STILL have to pay out of pocket to see a doctor.

    Plus, as I mentioned on another thread, I’m stuck paying for pediatric dental insurance that, again, no reputable establishment accepts. The only one I can find that accepts it is a clinic that straps kids down on papoose boards, and won’t let the parents accompany. So, again, I’m wasting money on premiums for county-style care, and I still have to pay out of pocket to take my kid to a dentist.

    In the “old days”, if I wanted dental insurance, I would shop around for a policy that covered my dentist, had the coverage I wanted, and I could afford.

    The government took that choice away from me. This pediatric dental coverage sucks, but I LITERALLY cannot vote with my feet.

    Obamacare sent a wrecking ball through anyone unsubsidized on an individual policy, such as small business owners, like me.

    He must really despise small business owners to do this to us. Because there is NO WAY the middle class can stay in the middle class with this.

    I have to laugh, thinking back how people howled with rage at a payroll tax that was something like $25/month. The silly sheep voted for something that caused hikes of many thousands of dollars a year for the middle class.

    Anyone who likes Obamacare must either not have it, or be subsidized. Anyone who pays full price, who had insurance before, thinks that it’s expensive and the coverage is bad.

    And, to forestall you from saying I’m making all this up, just go to GOOGLE and search on premium increases under Obamacare. Or just call any of the major insurance companies and ask them how premiums changed under Obamacare.

  152. And the majority of people oppose the ACA, or want it significantly revised.

    So, it’s not just me who was wrecked.

    Just wait until the employer mandate hits. Anyone who inflicts Obamacare on the rest of the public won’t be able to hold public office in a town with a population above 3.

  153. Ross wrote: “Most of us have to buy our own lunch.”

    Unless you work for Google or Facebook. Then all the food is free to you. I wanted to do that in my corporation, provide free lunch to all my employees, but my CPA is too afraid that the IRS will put us in jail if we try it. She says they have lawyers to fight the IRS and I don’t. Their legal theory hinges on a case involving bank tellers, where banks are allowed to provide their tellers lunch for free so they don’t have to take off too much time for work. So, anyway, I have to use my own money that I have paid taxes on. Would be nice if I could have a tax deduction for it so 35% more of my money could be used for my employees to enjoy a free lunch rather than given to a government that is going to waste it.

    By the way, as the owner of a corporation, the IRS is very clear that I cannot give myself a free lunch, even if I provided it free for all my employees.

  154. Lee:

    “I do think the baker should have the right of refusal. He will quickly find out if he loses customers from the word of mouth if his decision was a good one or not..
    I don’t recall who wrote it upthread but the best answer is suggest another bakery.”

    I agree. Let’s just use common sense and not legislate every opinion and thought.

  155. Ross wrote: “Put another way, if a single mother made an annual salary of $30,000 and essential expenses (groceries, clothes, vacations, gas for her car, rent, utilities, etc.) totaled $25,000 – if she were a corporation her net income would be $5,000 – she would little or no taxes at all.”

    A corporation cannot deduct those kinds of expenses! I pay all those things, but I cannot deduct any of them. If I had to wear a specific uniform for work, I could deduct that, but I can’t deduct a suit of clothes that I bought for work and use only at work. I can’t deduct groceries for my corporation even though I make regular trips to stock the refrigerator at my office. I can’t deduct gas that I use to get to my office at work. I can’t deduct the cost of my car that I use unless that car was bought specifically and only for work. I could not use such car to drive myself home after work. Yeah, I can deduct the electricity I use at my office. I’ll give you that. But to suggest my net income is only $5,000 after all my deductions? Nope. I have a big tax bill. Every month it is my highest bill, bigger than the mortgage to my home.

  156. Good heavens. Do people really think businesses don’t pay taxes???

    When I married my husband, a business owner, I thought his accountant must be barking mad. He MUST have gotten the taxes wrong by a factor of 10. That CAN’T be what it costs for work comp! Insurance costs HOW MUCH?

    Nope. All correct.

    Which is why businesses frantically write off every nickel and dime they can.

    People who are employees have NO IDEA how usurious the government is on taxes. Business owners typically work much longer hours than employees, risk their own capital, and pay far more in taxes.

  157. Davidm2575 said …

    Heck, we also are made into tax collectors by the government, and not by choice. It deceives the public into thinking that the business takes the money from them and the government gives it back to them!

    Oh noes…you just let the bird out of the bag! Never mind those pesky federal forms 940 & 941, or the W-2’s, 3’s & 4’s, yada yada… or the myriad state forms for your collection reporting. Governments are getting trickier and trickier these days, deciding to tax at the wholesale level for some “consumption” taxes…like the IRS has for a decade or two on federal fuel excise taxes…collected from the wholesaler, who charges the retailer already taxed, not the “ultimate vendor” … e.g., the retailer. If you have an exemption, you give proof to the retailer and he/she in turns applies for a refund of the tax paid at wholesale. You might even see a credit on your account in 90 to 180 days. No one is ever told how they’re paying that way…it’s so transparent it is invisible.

    Now I am off to hear Obama pontificate…or what ever.

  158. People who are employees have NO IDEA

    Nor do those whose sole qualification is marrying a business owner.

    Otherwise they might learn that workers’ comp insurance payments are a write off, not a tax; that those long hours, when worked, are worked in lieu of hiring a manager (i.e. management not ownership); and that most small businesses operate significantly on loans, not personal capital.

    But maybe that’s just being “usurious.”

  159. The truly sad aspect about our high tax rate is the “inheritance tax.”

    Someone works long hours to build a successful business, and then discovers that if he wants to leave it to his children, they’ll have to pay huge taxes in order to receive it.

    So, the owner pays enormous taxes every year for the business, and when he dies, his heirs have to pay a huge percentage of taxes in order to inherit the business, and then they promptly start paying taxes annually, on top of it. How many times can they tax the same business?

    This basically makes it impossible to inherit the family ranch, family home, or family business.

    So, when you work to build something, it’s not for your kids, but rather for the strangers who buy it. No more multigenerational ranches, either.

  160. fiver:

    “Nor do those whose sole qualification is marrying a business owner.

    Otherwise they might learn that workers’ comp insurance payments are a write off, not a tax;”

    Thank you so much for explaining this to my little woman’s brain. I never said work comp or insurance were taxes. Why would you think that? That came after my remark that I was shocked at how high he paid taxes.

    Let me explain something. Work comp in the industry my husband works in requires him to match 30% of his employee’s salary, last time I checked. It does not come out of the salary; it’s in addition to the salary. Yes, he writes it off, which means he does not pay taxes on what he paid for the work comp. But the amount he paid is STILL GONE. Understand?

    So, if he had to pay $30,000 for work comp, that’s really super that he saved money in taxes on what he paid, which would have added insult to injury. Why should he be taxed on work comp? But that $30,000 is still gone out of his bank account. AND if any of his employees gets hurt, that amount goes up.

    Get it?

    My remark was that it is absurdly expensive to run a business in CA, which is ranked as one of the least business friendly states in the union. Obviously, it’s run by Liberals who tend to have anti-business policies.

  161. fiver:

    “that those long hours, when worked, are worked in lieu of hiring a manager”

    Why do you say that? You think that hiring a manager means that the owner must be an absentee investor? If you hire a super to run a job, you just never show up? Never do research, paperwork, bids, anything? You just convert oxygen to carbon dioxide and get paid?

    Must be nice.

    Perhaps you are unaware that, for example, franchise restaurant owners typically make $80,000. Many also work long hours. That includes having restaurant managers. Doubling minimum wage will make them actually lose money. That’s another lovely Liberal policy.

  162. Write off is not an accurate term. Worker’s compensation payments are a deduction not a credit. They contribute to total expenses which are factored against revenues and other tax items. The employer still must pay the worker’s compensation in full and they, depending on tax structure and other issues, takes a deduction on this. All things being equal the tax benefit is roughly equal to the tax rate the business pays. Say 35% of the Worker’s comp premiums and that is what you get back.

    The reason that many small business owners work long hours is because 1) that is the nature of owning any business or being in a senior position and 2) it is not just that easy to hire a manager. The reason is, because it costs money to do so in the form of salary and benefits. Sometimes it is not feasible to have an employee for everything and just sit back and watch TV at home. For every dollar in salary/benefits paid to an employee is another dollar the business owner does not receive.

    As to most small businesses starting on loans and not capital. I doubt the accuracy of that. Money is difficult to get for small businesses especially after Dodd-Frank went into effect. Most small business owners start up shop by investing significant capital into the business to float it because the banks are very reluctant to loan to new ventures, especially family owned businesses until they have been in existence for several years.

  163. fiver has never run a biz either. This is like shooting fish in a barrel. Big ol’ retarded, bullhead actually. Karen, DBQ, et al, are you believing this?? It would be funny if we weren’t supporting people like this. They probably are all asleep after their cult leader gave them orgasms. I wonder if they lit up afterward?

  164. David wrote: Sometimes a man will live until 50 years old, like Clive Davis, through several marriages, always being attracted only to women, but then later switch and decide he is gay and wants a monogamous relationship with a man
    and sometimes they will get married because society did not let them be gay (not so much the case now but if you 50 or older being gay was to be hidden or you could lose your job, be ostracized, etc.
    Anecdotal but I know a few folks who were gay, married because that was what society expected and did not come out as gay, which they always were, until after the spouse died.
    (I still remember a teacher I knew, gay, who was threatened with being outed by a woman who had a gigantic crush on him. She told him, and I can’t imagine why she would want to date him knowing he was gay, that if he did not date her she would out him to the school board. He did date her not wanting to lose his job.)

  165. I have tracked down a number of sources on this bakery story. The man wanted a hateful message on a cake. The baker offered to bake the cake and leave the text area blank so he could write whatever he wanted. He refused, wanting the baker to write it.

    He filed a complaint. Lissen up peepul! ANYONE CAN FILE A COMPLAINT!

    Just like anyone with a filing fee can file a lawsuit.

    As in golf, it is the follow-through that counts. How far is this going to go? Not far, methinks. I have served on a regulatory board. Petty people with a personal axes to grind file crap complaints all the time.

    This is not as if the baker refused to bake the cake in the first place, as was the case of the “Masterpiece Cakeshop.” In that matter, baker Jack Phillips refused to make a wedding cake for Dave Mullins and Charlie Craig in July of 2012. The refusal to bake a cake at all was what got Phillips in trouble.

    Azucar Bakery has offered to bake the cake and let the purchaser deface it all he wants. Maybe he is literacy challenged and can’t write. Falcon three zero zero three. Yep. I am sure that’s the explanation.

    Hopefully, sanity will prevail in the end.

  166. Yawn. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a female vs. male mind. It has everything to do with an absurdly weak and irrelevant appeal to personal authority – and on an internet comment board fergoshsakes. Like marrying a businessperson somehow grants a person an honorary degree in accountancy? Please. I’m an astronaut and a pornstar (ain’t the internet great?), but, if I claimed to be married to a neurosurgeon, it would hardly qualify me to start drilling into someones brain.

    It must be incredibly generous, and I do mean incredible, of your husband to take his workers’ comp payments out of his own profit instead of including that cost in calculating the wages he will pay. In other words: workers pay those rates in the form of reduced wages.

    As for ownership requiring work, let alone requiring hard, brutally long hours, to make money: nope. Capital and labor are two very different things despite the fact that small business owners can often wear both hats. But that is hardly required; owners can always hire professionals to do that work – and in significant enterprises they almost always do. Ownership alone literally requires nothing more than “you just convert oxygen to carbon dioxide and get paid.” And, yeah, it must be nice.

    Don’t like it? Join the Communist Party and change it. Otherwise, that’s our system.

  167. Karen: There’s statistical evidence that confusion about Obamacare continues to dampen support for the law, too. Surveys continue to find that the Medicaid expansion is more popular than the Affordable Care Act. The subsidies to help families buy health insurance are more popular than the Affordable Care Act. The provision allowing children to stay on their parents’ insurance plans for longer is more popular than the Affordable Care Act. Even Republicans support the major coverage provisions of the law — just not the law itself. “If the public had perfect understanding of the elements that we examined, the proportion of Americans who favor the bill might increase from the current level of 32 percent to 70 percent,” one team of researchers found.http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/08/obamacare-works-and-america-will-always-hate-it.html

    Just like studies showed that people like the ACA but not Obamacare not understanding ACA is Obamacare. The sad fact is the dems and president let the repubs shape the conversation and their lies exaggersations and distortions and people bought it, despite actually liking the benefits they have seen as a result of the ACA.

    YOu are wrong about mpost people not liking it: As Michael Hiltzik reported in the LA Times yesterday, when Americans are asked whether they like “Obamacare,” a majority say no. But when Americans are asked whether they support what Obamacare actually does, they love it:

    Here are figures from Kaiser’s March 2013 poll:

    Tax credits for small businesses to buy insurance: 88% in favor.

    Closing the Medicare drug benefit doughnut hole: 81% in favor.

    Extension of dependent coverage to offspring up to age 26: 76% in favor.

    Expanding Medicaid: 71% in favor.

    Ban on exclusions for preexisting conditions: 66% in favor.

    Employer mandate: 57% in favor

    http://www.businessinsider.com/why-republicans-hate-obamacare-2013-10

  168. Ownership alone literally requires nothing more than “you just convert oxygen to carbon dioxide and get paid.” And, yeah, it must be nice.

    Good to know. But now I have to ask:

    Why are you wasting your time on an internet comment board when you could be out setting up a business and then watching the $$ roll in while you do nothing?

  169. We elicited four key observations from our analyses:
     Competition and choice are increasing. In the 41 states releasing exchange participation carrier data, the number of health insurers increased by 26 percent between 2014 and 2015.2 In the 19 states with complete filings, the number of products grew 66 percent, with most in the silver tier.
     Gross premiums for most 2014 plans are likely to increase. In the 19 states, proposed gross premiums are increasing for 65 percent of all exchange renewal products (plans offered in 2014 that were re-filed for 2015).3 In 2015, therefore, enrollees could see a
    1 Complete details about the specific states analyzed and our methodology can be found in the appendix.
    2 Our calculations are based on the number of carriers that offer plans in each state. For example, a national carrier that offered plans in 12 states in 2014 would be counted as 12 “unique payors” in that year. However, a carrier that offered 2014 exchange plans in 4 rating areas within 1 state is counted as a single entrant in that state.
    3 In the 19 states, 81 percent of all 2014 products were re-filed.
    McKinsey Center for U.S. Health System Reform
    2015 OEP: Emerging trends in the individual exchanges
    2
    median increase of 4 percent when they receive their renewal notifications.4 However, the actual increase they pay could be less than half that amount, given that many people will have the option of switching to a lower-price plan.
     Price leadership volatility is high; in many rating areas, proposed 2015 premiums are lower than 2014 premiums. Because price leadership is likely to turn over in 59 percent of the rating areas, over half of QHP-eligible individuals could have a new lowest-price carrier (either a higher-priced 2014 competitor that lowered prices substantially or an aggressively priced new entrant). Two-thirds of the rating areas with a less expensive lowest-price silver plan in 2015 have a new price leader.

    http://healthcare.mckinsey.com/sites/default/files/2015%20OEP%20Emerging%20Trends%20-%20McK%20Reform%20Center_0.pdf

    In addition, rates cannot go up willy nilly as some big insurers are trying to do.http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2012pres/01/20120112a.html

    “Before the Affordable Care Act, consumers were in the dark about their health insurance premiums because there was no nationwide transparency or accountability,” said Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. “Now, insurance companies are required to disclose rate increases over 10 percent and justify these increases. It’s time for Trustmark to immediately rescind the rates, issue refunds to consumers or publicly explain their refusal to do so.”

  170. Why are you wasting your time on an internet comment board when you could be out setting up a business and then watching the $$ roll in while you do nothing?

    Actually, my retirement accounts are doing exactly that (not wasting time on the internet – the other thing). So are yours. And, no, I put zero effort into selecting the individual investments, I pay someone for that.

    Is it the same as small business ownership? Assuredly not. Like I wrote, small business owners often wear two hats. But it is ownership nonetheless, and it doesn’t even require respiration.

    How much time do you think the Walton kids spend checking out customers at Walmart? My guess is: not much.

  171. But it is ownership nonetheless, and it doesn’t even require respiration.

    Please tell me where I can find some of these self-creating businesses I can get ownership of effortlessly.

    Actually, my retirement accounts are doing exactly that

    According to your own argument, your retirement fund is earning a return on your capital, not on your ownership. What point are you trying to make here?

    Speaking of your portfolio, does it contain any debt instruments? If ownership involves no effort and a nice income, you should be 100% in equities.

    I think it’s a smart move on your part to rely on a fund manager.

  172. For information regarding effortless ownership in a business, I suggest taking a look at the S&P 500. As far as a return on capital versus ownership, I fail to see the difference. Stock is ownership.

    Yes, I have someone manage my accounts. I believe the investments are stock, and not commercial paper, but, like I said, I pay someone to make those decisions for me. I’d rather waste my time on an internet comment board at night rather than throwing darts at the Wall Street Journal.

  173. As far as a return on capital versus ownership, I fail to see the difference

    Loans or bonds illustrate one difference. As the person who wrote “most small businesses operate significantly on loans, not personal capital,” you should be able to remember this.

    Debt and equity are the two basic ways to finance capital investment. Only one of them includes ownership as a component. The difference in average returns on debt and equity is a premium for bearing greater risk. None of these sources of income represents “something for nothing.”

    Then there’s the return to the entrepreneurship involved in starting a business in the first place.

    Small-business ownership is an amalgam of all three types of income.

  174. In the Colorado “gay wedding cake” case, there was an interesting secton of the ruling that seems relevant here. The judge said that if instead of a “generic” wedding cake that any couple might use, the customer had asked for some sort of decoration that actually endorsed same-sex marriage, the baker might have had a First Amendment right to refuse the request. (Since that wasn’t the case, he didn’t actually rule on that question)

    So, the “anti-gay” cake case is actually more analogous to the one in Ireland, where a baker was asked to make a cake affirmatively endorsing gay marriage. The reason the cases in the U.S. against bakers, florists, photographers, etc refusing to service same-sex couples have gone against the business owners is that the services are neutral; that is, the same for gay couples and straight couples, and don’t specifically require the business to “send a message” he or she opposes.

    This anti-gay thing was of course a “set up” (less judgmentally, a “test case”) but it was skewed by the customer demanding the baker write offensive anti-gay stuff that was made up. A cleverer test would be someone ordering a perfectly inoffensive cake for the Westboro Baptist Church…from a gay baker.

  175. Chip S,

    Had you read the very next sentence after the one you quoted:

    As far as a return on capital versus ownership, I fail to see the difference. Stock is ownership.

    … your lesson might have been quite obviously unnecessary. But thanks anyway. I suppose we could quibble about the differences between interest and dividends, but neither requires work and any basic Google search makes any such discussion similarly unnecessary.

    Have no idea where you pulled “something for nothing” from (it certainly wasn’t from me), but I’d probably rather not know. I also don’t really have the time. I have to go help those poor, hard working Walton kids re-stock the Walmart shelves.

    Have a nice night.

  176. Holy depreciation, Batman! I start reading, anticipating comments about wedding cakes (I’m going to write a play called “Wedding for Godot”) and end up reading about taxes. This after writing a court brief about taxes for the last few days. Sheesh! Can’t you all talk about something else?

    Hmm. What’s more entertaining: a) reading more comments about “cultists,” “PC” and who doesn’t know about this subject or that subject, or b) re-reading the Internal Revenue Code? Well, it’s back the Code for me. I may not know much, but at least I know what I don’t know.

  177. fiver @12:51 am: Have no idea where you pulled “something for nothing” from (it certainly wasn’t from me)

    fiver @10:59 pm: Ownership alone literally requires nothing more than “you just convert oxygen to carbon dioxide and get paid.”

    I do hope you get a good night’s rest. Clear out those cobwebs.

  178. Karen

    Complete horseshit on inheritance taxes. I inherited a comfortable estate from my parents and owed no taxes. You make up stuff. Try reading this:

    The Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 called for the phaseout of the federal estate tax. Although most tax experts expected Congress to change the law before that happened, the estate tax did die in 2010.

    It was reinstated, however, in 2011. That tax year, estates in excess of $5 million were taxed at 35 percent. For deaths in 2012, the estate tax exemption increased to $5.12 million thanks to inflation. And thanks to the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012, or ATRA, which was passed Jan. 1, 2013, the estate tax was made a permanent part of the tax code and the exemption amount automatically indexed for inflation

    Read more: http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/estate-tax-and-gift-tax-amounts.aspx#ixzz3PR2mtx1p
    Follow us: @Bankrate on Twitter | Bankrate on Facebook

  179. Throw your doctor a party if he is able to ‘retire’ because he doesn’t like ACA. Obviously, the doc has a pretty nice nest egg if s/he can afford to quit. I don’t think she is opting for living under a bridge for the rest of her life.

    And unhappiness about filling out forms? Yeah, right. We never had to do that before ACA.

    Time for a reality check, whiners. (Gee. I thought that behavior was frowned upon at this site.)

    And consider this. Old docs didn’t have to know how to type. The next generation will know how – just like the old business managers didn’t know how to type when they had secretaries. Welcome to the 21st century, folks. Adapt!

  180. fiver wrote: “… those long hours, when worked, are worked in lieu of hiring a manager (i.e. management not ownership);”

    Who has the money to do that, and where do you find a manager you can trust to do that? How can there be enough money left over for the business owner and his family? What you are suggesting is that a smart business owner doesn’t work. He hires people to work for him. You clearly do not understand what goes into earning a living and creating a successful business. Only a wealthy businessman can do what you are suggesting, and if the manager he hires can’t respond to the marketplace and make smart decisions, that business won’t be in business long. Most of us business owners do not operate that way. I regularly work 14 hour days and have been doing it so long that I do not think much about it. I am always the first one in the office and the last to leave. I work hard because I need to earn money me and my family, and my business is the way that I do that.

    fiver wrote: “… and that most small businesses operate significantly on loans, not personal capital.”

    I have been in business for 25 years, and I have never taken a business loan. I reach into my own pocket. Even if I take one of the loans constantly being offered to me in the mail, I am personally on the hook for it and they have high interest rates because it is not easy to start a business. Most fail because some neophytes think if they just hang a shingle out, people from all over will flock to them and give them money. The truth is that I am not relating much to what you are saying about how a small business operates.

    I’m trying to figure out where you are coming from. Are you a wealthy businessman? Do you have any experience in creating and running a small business?

  181. Nick Spinelli wrote: “Karen, DBQ, et al, are you believing this?? It would be funny if we weren’t supporting people like this.”

    Yeah, and those Democrats think it is a good thing to give an equal vote to people like fiver. People wonder why Congress becomes gridlocked. I blame equal and universal suffrage along with a self serving media that brainwashes people with their glorified gossip.

  182. leejcaroll wrote: “Anecdotal but I know a few folks who were gay, married because that was what society expected and did not come out as gay, which they always were, until after the spouse died.”

    I don’t doubt you at all. My point is that is not all that happens. I mentioned a specific person, a record producer named Clive Davis, because his biography is available. That was not his case. He marvels that people do not believe him and think he had to be some kind of closet gay. He has no dog in this race. He is presently in a committed relationship with another man. He just says this is the truth, that he never once had any attraction toward a man until he was in his 50’s and after several failed marriages. I often hear lesbians say they turned to lesbianism after several failed boyfriends. There is a wide range of sexuality, and the gay agenda about gay rights is mostly pure fiction meant to advance open sexuality not homosexuality. Just go attend a gay parade somewhere in the world or look at the magazine produced for a gay conference and that should become obvious to anyone with a small amount of common sense. Historians in the future will look at this generation with bewilderment, wondering how we could believe this stuff. It is like the way we look at the Romans and Greeks believing in polytheism. How could that happen?

  183. fiver wrote: “How much time do you think the Walton kids spend checking out customers at Walmart? My guess is: not much.”

    I think your guess is wrong, and there is little doubt in my mind that their father, Sam Walton, worked long and hard hours building Walmart into the largest retailer and private employer in the world. While his family might have inherited it, and could sit back and loaf if they wanted to do so, Sam Walton built it. You don’t do that approaching business the way you do. If you are an astronaut, then you probably are a government employee. Yes?

  184. Davidm2575,

    In an earlier post I stated many of those loopholes that used to exist have been reduced. If business taxes are paid, those costs are eventually passed onto the consumer in the retail price of products and services. If those costs aren’t recouped in the year they were incurred, most businesses will eventually raise their rates in the future years if the condition persists.

    Business automobiles can legally be used for both business and personal use, but those costs have to be separated by mileage – that percentage is then used to split fuel and maintenance costs. You are right in this scenario, you can’t deduct 100% of costs when a vehicle has dual use.

    If you pay attention next time a politician is proposing a new tax on an industry, business owners and industry experts make this very point “increasing taxes on businesses increases prices for consumers”. So even if a business pays a tax bill, that cost is ultimately passed down to the consumer (unless the owners decide to cut their own profits – which is rare and usually temporary).

  185. Our “I promise no new taxes” governor is now in nearly complete contradiction and is proposing huge tax raises. The old “1%’er mantra” with little true analysis of economic reality. He proposed to the legislature that we need to raise taxes to cover the state getting spanked by the supreme court for not fully funding primary education. He now wants to put a 7% capital gains tax on this so called 1%’ers which he claims will raise 750 million dollars but then he turns right around and says he will give state employees a raise of a newly equal amount. Hopefully this is not make it into law because the Republicans will never accept this. I know a couple folks that have business models that are capital gain specific and they will look at divesting in WA if this happens. The timber industry is very worried.

    He talks about how the state has the most regressive tax system in the country but then he proposes raising cigarette taxes (which affects the lower income bracket more) and placing a 95% tax on e-cigarettes, which everyone in that industry stated it will completely destroy small business retailers because the price would be untenable and customers will likely either go back to regular cigarettes or buy contrabands. Over forty percent of all cigarettes possessed in the state are contraband. The state loses about two hundred million dollars a biennium on untaxed smokes and the legitimate e-cigarette market will likely vanish into “vapor”.

    And there is the marijuana business. The pols are now talking about raising the marijuana tax, even after every stakeholder and customer said the biggest hurdle to going legitimate is the prohibitively high tax system. The industry could very well fail, but many politicians never seem to consider that possibility. The largest marijuana retailer in the state sells half a million per month in weed and is struggling to survive due to the tax burden. Growers have months worth of product sitting idle and unable to presently sell. Nearly all are losing money. Welcome to Washington.

    So, it is not just a matter of passing on taxes to the customer. Bad tax policy can kill entire industries, or at the very least dissuade future investment in the state because it becomes less tenable to consider setting up shop.

    We have about 130 days left until the legislature adjourns. There is an old saying: “Nobody’s life, liberty or property is safe while the legislature is in session.” It becomes more true every year unfortunately.

  186. leejcaroll – I have a good lesbian friend who did not come out until she was 50 and had 4 children. Then she stayed in the closet until last year when she and her partner married in San Diego. It was a lovely wedding, where they were given away by their grandsons.

  187. Chuck – you can rationalize for the baker all you want, but what goes around comes around. Baking the cake come with complete decorating: it is part of the total package. Kind of like buying a car. They do not sell it to you paint ready, they sell it to you already painted.

    Yes, there have been some infamous cases of misspelled cake decorations, but this baker’s excuse was not that he was illiterate and a product of the local public school system.

  188. fiver – you realize that most small businesses fail because they are under capitalized. Because of that they could not possibly hire someone to run the business at any point. Where do you think capital comes from? Do you think owners just magic it from the air?

  189. Paul Schulte:

    The Florida school that punished a disabled child due to his gay parents is true. Prosecutors (state or federal) that aren’t already investigating this fraud know where to find me. It would be illegal for me to state a false claim on this site.

    If adult school administrators are cowardly and evil enough to punish a disabled child for who his parents are – those same adults will punish those children even more if they are fined thousands of dollars for committing ADA fraud.

    In these types of cases, unless the child’s family is willing to relocate entirely outside of that community or state – it’s extremely dangerous to release certain details about this type of fraud by some schools.

    In the real world this is how it works. Many federal investigations never reveal all of the details to protect the children or victims involved. If a Plaintiff chooses litigation over a federal investigation, then the Plaintiff must confront the Defendant in court.

    In other words these cases can be totally resolved without ever revealing the child’s name for their protection.

  190. GeorgeJ – you have a point about younger doctors having to type and older ones not knowing. My cardiologist has a duplicate screen on the wall so the patients can see what he is typing into their charts (50″ TV). I have nothing against this. However, as I have said before, what I am against, is being forced to give information that has nothing to do with being treated, such as my race and ethnicity. That is solely for government data mining.

  191. Ross – how is the child being “punished” in any manner? You can make any claims you want, but I need something more than your claim.

  192. Chuck Stanley … here’s my take:

    Customer: Bake me this cake with the anti-gay stuff.

    Baker: Falcon Nine Zero Two.

    Footnote….For those not following the Falcon Codes: 902 = “If I called for shit, you’d come sliding in on a shovel

  193. As for EMR’s…small practices likely cannot really afford them….but they might be able to hire a bright young IT guy to write them a simpler Db in SQL Server or similar package, and then provide patient access by assigning “roles & permissions” appropriately. Oracle is not for the beginner, just the manuals that come with the package fill an entire bookshelf. You have to hire a contractor, who uses Oracle, it is going to be expensive.

    One of the reasons I chose a hospital system is because they can and do provide the EMR’s to all who seek care there…and have done so long before the ACA. Never mind that I can make one trip to my PCP and get all tests done in the same building and be done with it. Then I can go home and the next day (usually) read all the test results and my PCP’s opinion regarding them…sitting at my computer. My treatment for cancer(s) was made far simpler to deal with due to this feature….that and the ability to get multiple opinions (surgical and radiological) in the same place, then prompt treatment. So far, all successful.

  194. Paul Schulte:

    Some (not all) Florida Christian schools had an “excellent” rating for a disabled child and as soon as school officials found out his parents were gay – the child was permanently expelled from the school.

    This would be a traumatic experience for any child to leave his friends and teachers mid-year, but to do this to a disabled child in grade school makes it far worse. This is not the same as a child of a military family that relocates, this was done explicitly due as punishment for having gay parents.

    Any school that accepts federal ADA grants for the purpose of teaching children with disabilities can’t then discriminate against gay taxpayers – it is a condition of receiving the federal grants (agreed to in advance).

    If you are a law & order type, this is a federal crime by the school accepting those grants. If you have any morality at all, it is never justified to punish the child for the parent’s actions – on any topic. If you are a real conservative this is the text-book definition of a theocratic nanny-state (Iran’s model of government) that has no regard for individual freedom and thinks religion should be imposed on it’s citizens.

    This is not politics this is a legal and moral issue. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on the matter so it’s the law of the land in Florida and most states.

  195. Darren is right. It is easier to get a loan on a house than on a business. Venture capitalists might loan money to start a business, but then they get to run it. And they don’t do that for dry cleaners.

    Every small business owner I know sank every dime they had, and/or mortgaged their home, to start their business, and then chained themselves to their work to get it off the ground. My sister-in-law barely saw my brother for years when he was getting started, and my husband practically slept in his truck. Everyone was making money EXCEPT him when his business was new, because he had to pay his employees, the bills, etc before he could pay himself.

    Nick – what is more frightening is that people who are clueless about running a business vote on what affects business, all based on misconceptions.

  196. Ross – cite something. Cite me to at least a news article.

    BTW, expulsion is permanent. Suspension is temporary. And disabled students can be expelled, just not for their disability. I have spent enough time working in this area that I have a little knowledge.

  197. fiver:

    “It must be incredibly generous, and I do mean incredible, of your husband to take his workers’ comp payments out of his own profit instead of including that cost in calculating the wages he will pay. In other words: workers pay those rates in the form of reduced wages.”

    No, you are still wrong, even though you seem very confident.

    Work Comp is 30%. Workers are paid competitive wages, or they go work for someone else. If a worker’s salary would be $90,000, work comp taken out of his wages would be $60,000, which is not the going wage for a skilled worker. So, you could try that, but you would have to get entry level guys, and then you would need to give them raises as they advanced, or they would go elsewhere.

    You have some very incorrect ideas about how business and market forces work. If you are uninterested in getting educated, then you will continue to make ignorant statements that real business owners will judge you on. If you don’t mind it, then enjoy yourself, by all means.

  198. Lee:

    “Karen: There’s statistical evidence that confusion about Obamacare continues to dampen support for the law, too. Surveys continue to find that the Medicaid expansion is more popular than the Affordable Care Act. The subsidies to help families buy health insurance are more popular than the Affordable Care Act. ”

    That makes sense, because it is completely unaffordable for the unsubsidized. Those without subsidies who previously had insurance do not like it because their coverage is worse and they can’t afford it.

    Those getting subsidies would obviously like getting money from the government.

    “Those who get free stuff like it, while those who get hit with huge bills do not.”

  199. And, no, competition is not increasing.

    Many carriers left CA because of Obamacare (I have cited references before), which reduced competition.

    Because the ACA mandates minimum coverage, if you look at the brochures between plans (as I do), there is no difference between plans except premium and deductible. They are all literally the same.

    That is the exact definition of less choice and less competition.

  200. fiver:

    “For information regarding effortless ownership in a business, I suggest taking a look at the S&P 500. As far as a return on capital versus ownership, I fail to see the difference. Stock is ownership.”

    This is embarrassingly uninformed.

    #1 – Anyone who heads an S&P 500 company works long hours. I suppose an uber rich person could just buy one, and then hire “people” to do everything while he sips champagne on his yacht. How many business owners fall into that category? Just fall out of his silk sheets and decide to buy a ready-made S&P 500 company with the budget to hire people to do all the work?

    If you own stock you own an investment, and do not run a company.

    In light of your recent declarations, may I ask in the nicest possible way that you please abstain in the future on voting on any issue that may impact business owners, since you are clearly shockingly ignorant on business.

    I thought anyone who graduated from high school would understand at least these basics. This is an unintended cry for help to improve our public education system to equip graduates with practical information.

    Personally, I would like to see such aspects as budgeting, debt accumulation, cash flow, and business economics. Too many people seem to be graduating innocent of how to navigate the world, or how our economy works.

  201. George – so those who have a 6,000 acre ranch that exceeds the exemption for the estate tax are “bad people” who don’t deserve to pass anything on?

    Are you aware that large farm equipment can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars each? Do you know what an organic commercial dairy farm costs?

    Farms are often cash poor but equipment rich.

  202. Darren:

    “And there is the marijuana business. The pols are now talking about raising the marijuana tax, even after every stakeholder and customer said the biggest hurdle to going legitimate is the prohibitively high tax system. The industry could very well fail, but many politicians never seem to consider that possibility. The largest marijuana retailer in the state sells half a million per month in weed and is struggling to survive due to the tax burden. Growers have months worth of product sitting idle and unable to presently sell. Nearly all are losing money. Welcome to Washington.”

    Welcome to tax and spend politics.

    There are many people who can’t get past the “half a million per month” and literally cannot understand how if you keep voting for more and more and more taxes, you eventually take most of it.

    It’s like a check book. “What do you mean I don’t have any more money? I have more checks!” Don’t the rich just have bottomless pockets? They don’t need to be rich! They should have to work harder and harder and harder, and just have a middle class life to show for it, but continue to work at the higher pace to employ everyone else out of the goodness of their hearts.

    That is the problem when you have an unequal tax code. The majority will ALWAYS vote for higher taxes on “other people.” If we came up with a “ginger tax” for those with red hair, it would probably pass.

  203. Paul he will not give you a cite because it is another lie just like the Rolling Stone Rape Case. Ross’s real name is Lena Dunham.

  204. Karen, 10:44a, LOL! Love your humor. The 80 hour weeks I worked building my biz took its toll on me. But, I was doing work I loved. The small businesses I see that succeed often have that component. People who start a business to get rich, often fail, because they don’t love what they do. I turned down business because I hade many clients who would suffer if I continued to grow. I had a growth spurt 8 years into my biz that spread me thinly. I hired several investigators and support staff to handle the new clients, w/ me focusing on the longtime ones. For me, handling the growth was very difficult. I waded through it, fortunate to have a friend in law enforcement who funneled good, retired, homicide detectives to me. They needed some adjustment to the private sector, but they were skilled and honest. To read people pontificating on small biz who obviously have never run one is maddening. Your “Holiday Inn” comment provided the much needed humor. Maybe we should just look @ them as clowns, and laugh as they all jump out of a tiny car w/ squirt guns. It fits.

  205. Reading, this morning, the comments by fiver and some others, I think that I have seriously overestimated the mental capacity of the liberals who refuse to understand the first things about business, taxes and other economic realities.

    Second grade was too high.

  206. Nick – it’s so true that if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.

    George: Around a hundred years ago, some cousins on my mother’s side homesteaded some land. Their children, and their children’s children, worked the land, built a reservoir with their own hands, and kept expanding. Now, they own something like 6,000 acres in cattle ranch. The reservoir provides water for free to neighboring ranches. They built their holding over generations with their bare hands and hard work. They still work long hours with grueling physical labor. This estate tax would hit them on the land value alone.

    It’s easy to say that estate taxes don’t matter if they effect “other people.” This is what the “other people” look like, and this is what can possibly be lost. A legacy that took generations to build.

  207. When one can no longer continue a debate using facts and logic, that is when they are totally defeated and resort to name-calling! It speaks volumes!

  208. Buddy give us a cite something anything! Otherwise it is just another Big Liberal Lie that you are so fond of using in a debate. Not providing details about such an outrageous claim does indeed speak volumes.

    I do apologize for calling you Lena Dunham. That was a low blow. Sorry.

  209. Nick Spinelli wrote: “Maybe we should just look @ them as clowns, and laugh as they all jump out of a tiny car w/ squirt guns. It fits.”

    The problem is that their vote cancels out your vote. So wouldn’t it be prudent to at least try to educate them?

  210. Ross wrote: “… increasing taxes on businesses increases prices for consumers.”

    No doubt this is true. Ultimately, the consumer pays for everything. You are arguing a tautology, which basically says nothing. Perhaps you forget that business owners are consumers too.

    We pay, but then we are chastised with false information that we don’t pay. It used to be that business owners had a little respect for being successful. Now it is in vogue to just call them greedy millionaires with too much money and take from them by force whatever can be taken. If there were truth to it, fine, but there is no truth to it. It is a fabrication of the Democratic Party. People need to understand the Republican message of liberty and freedom and break free of these chains created by the Democrats against the working man. If people instead believed the Republican vision of the American Dream, of being self reliant and responsible as a path leading to economic freedom, our society would quickly recover from the quagmire we have been led into from our President Barack Hussein Obama.

  211. david, My job was to observe and understand human behavior. While I applaud your efforts to “change them,” it is quixotic. That’s why I fall back to humor, helping me deal w/ the reality of their dysfunctional mindset. I sincerely applaud your efforts. I have endeavored some quixotic campaigns myself. But, not this one.

  212. So in other words you lied. This is not a disabled child who was expelled because his parents were gay. The cite is of a gay student who was expelled because he was gay. Not what you said at all.

    As usual you tried to gild the lily by making something up.

    I see nothing wrong with a religious school not accepting someone who has a life style that violates the doctrines of the religion that underlies the school. I would not expect a Madrassa to accept a Jewish student. I wouldn’t expect Howard University to accept a member of the Klan.

  213. I do agree that church related entities should not take government money. They should be tax exempt but not take any money from the government.

  214. Trooper, I jumped into the conversation with you and Ross. Ross was the one who made the allegation of a case with gay parent’s and an expelled student. I simply was making the point that his allegation is not that unbelievable. I offered what I presume is a different case that was similar, asking whether it bore any similarity to his case. It is my understanding that Florida leads in ADA fraud cases. His recollection of a case does not seem unbelievable to me. I just don’t know enough to find the case he is talking about.

    There are many religious organizations and churches that accept government money to provide a service. Whether it is the Salvation Army accepting FEMA money to feed the homeless and is thereby restricted from being able to say a prayer before serving the food, or private religious schools accepting money to help educate disabled children, this does go on. Then when a student is expelled, the question arises whether the reason was justified. The acceptance of money by religious groups puts upon them a requirement of being non-sectarian, but sometimes there is not much specificity about what that means. I assume that these schools freely accept disabled children and treat them like everybody else. That is what the law requires. But a school might have a standard of sexual morality (including homosexual, bisexual and heterosexuals equally) that legally can be used as a standard for dismissal. If the government decides that standard is unacceptable, they should not offer them the money, or put a specific condition on acceptance like FEMA did with prohibiting praying over the food bought with FEMA funds.

  215. Knowing both David and Trooper, I assure both of you this was a miscommunication. You guys are simpatico on many topics.

  216. Cases like these illustrate how the government is rolling in money. They have way too much. It is like if someone just handed you a million dollars and told you to spend it responsibly in one year. You might start looking for whoever is already providing services that you think are good. You give to churches carrying out educational purposes for the disabled, and you give to churches providing food and clothing to the poor. Then if the group does something you dislike, you tell them next year they won’t get any money unless they change their philosophy to be like yours. This is how our culture war got started. Too much money in government.

  217. Sorry David I apologize. You did not lie. The example you cite is not what we are talking about. A religious school can have standards. I don’t think they should take government money.

    But I still think the original story is just another Big Liberal Lie.

  218. This is just another lame attempt to change the subject. The issue is the government forcing religions to provide their sacraments and “blessings” to groups that actively violate and disdain that religions teaching. If they refuse they will penalized out of existence based on the current whims of the progressive elitists.

    That is the end game of the gay mafia.

  219. Consumers are free to contract business with whomever they choose, and by the same token, businesses are free to do business or not based on their choice, this of course is in a utopian universe, not the dystopian, politically correct, marxist environment which is becoming more prevalent in the land of the free

  220. If I was a guy running a Jewish bakery I would not want to make a cake for some gay Nazis. And many were gay. And if I was a black guy running a bakery I would not want to make a cake with depictions of the Klan and Jesus on there with gay Klan guys. And if I was a gay guy with a bakery I would not want to bake a cake from some Catholic pedophile priest with a weeny looking like a cross. It is all about the Holy Grail and who went to Yale.

  221. The dorks who are suing the bakery were on tv tonight and really obnoxious. The world is going to hell without the handbasket.
    [music]
    Pattycake, Pattycake, Bakerman!
    Make me a gay cake fast as you can!
    Pink it and flower it and stamp it with pee.
    Momma don’t hold no candle over me.

  222. If a business can refuse to serve those who legally carry a weapon and can ban them from the premises (under threat of a tresspass charge) why can they not choose who to serve based on other criteria?

  223. Whenever there is extreme social change it takes time for acceptance. The amount of time spent arguing about gay marriage was exhausting. Sometimes when you get your way it’s a good idea to quit complaining. Frequent businesses who have no problems about it.

  224. Karen S … I agree with your bit about small business and banks, vis a vis loans or lines of credit. They are not easily acquired.

    If anyone here, with actual experience, can cite me one bank, any bank, that doesn’t require said small business person to counter sign and pledge personal assets (like their homes, et al…) as collateral, please tell me where to apply. Been there, done that, in my sojourn in the private sector…and every single bank document included personal guarantees before the loan was made or letter of credit issued. I am willing to listen…but do cite the bank involved. I imagine there is at least one, somewhere.

  225. On on John Turley’s blog will you see people champion the reduction of human rights because those rights ‘offend’ the people that use their religion as a basis for being bigots.

    Gay people should have the exact same rights as any straight person. If you disagree, you are en enemy of freedom. Judges declaring bigotry laws unConstitutional is not tyranny, it is saying that bigots do not get to vote to deny equal protection to groups those bigots hates.

    We wouldn’t have to deal with this crap if people valued the ideals of the Constitution as much as they claim they do.

    But most of the people only care about the Constitution when it benefits them and the things they approve. When the Constitution rules against them, like declaring black people as full citizens with the same rights and protections as whites, or that slavery is unConstitutional, or that not only is homosexuality not illegal, but that homosexuals are entitled to the same rights as straight people, the people that enjoyed oppressing everyone else whine about how they lost the power they stole so long ago by declaring the people they don’t like as less than human.

    Losing your ability to deny equal protection of law to other people is not a violation of your religious beliefs. It is the Constitution saying that the rule of law doesn’t bend to your particular religion. If you want a theocracy, go to Saudi Arabia or Iran.

  226. A lot of name-calling in the comments here. Hard to hear good points over that. Makes them all too easy to dismiss. And that’s a shame. Because a good point is always worth trying to successfully get across the table and into the other person’s consideration rather than simply under their skin.

  227. If I was the baker, victim of this litigation, I would fashion a cake depicting all the members of the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. I would have them in bed with a copy of the First Amendment and depict them having oral sex with each other. I would put this in the window of the store at street view. Then post it on the internet. Hey, someone paid me to do it.

  228. I’m pretty sure the baker is going to prevail anyway, but I’m not sure your suggestions are the way to encourage a favorable ruling.

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