Oklahoma State Rep. Dan Fisher presumably has an array of tough issues to tackle for his state from unemployment to the environment to crime. However, Fisher has decided to take on the ignoble task of banning Advanced Placement history classes in the state because he objects to the inclusion of negative aspects of American history and the omission of material embracing “American exceptionalism.” As an academic, I have previously criticized politicians (here and here and here and here) intervening in our school system to impose their own values or priorities on educators. This however ranks as one of the worst such intrusions that we have seen.
Oklahoma has been one of the states rejecting the Common Core curriculum for K-12 programs. There are valid arguments for states in insisting on control of such curricula as a general matter even if one disagrees with the merits of objections to the common core. However, this is beyond the pale. AP classes are a mainstay of our educational system and allow students to get truly advanced studies in given subjects. I have argued for years that we need to ramp up such courses on civics and history. It is therefore particularly distressing to read Fisher’s bill. It is not only would deprive these students of advanced courses but it would place Oklahoma students at a serious disadvantage in college applications which put great weight on such courses.
Fisher’s primary objection is that the AP history courses, in his view, emphasize the wrongs about America. However, these courses allow students to study not just the triumphs but the mistakes of history so history does not repeat itself. We are not a great nation because we did not commit errors and even crimes in our past. We are a great nation because we overcome such history, recognized our failings, and become a better nation despite such failings. The Trail of Tears, Alien and Sedition Acts, Japanese internment camps, Red Scare and other dark chapters reveal both our succumbing to fears and our transcending them. Part of AP curricula is to train students to read history in a critical and objective way. Converting our history into some Disney tale will teach students little about our country or themselves.
The “exceptionalism” of this country is precisely that we are not perfect but strive to be better.
Inga:
Well, when you’ve taught philosophy to Aristotle, advised the Medicis in state craft and still managed to follow little old ladies around to see if they paid their parking meters all before breakfast, you pretty much pass the test for omniscience. Add a San Diego lifestyle where, like Dr Doolittle, you walk and talk with the animals and you’re much perfect. So knowing everything about everybody sort of comes with the territory.
This is the funniest thread you have to admit it if you don’t take it serious. You can learn alot from it. Poor Democratic Socialists didn’t have a chance. I wish Paul C. Schulte would stop watching TV so I could argue about what a psycho Hitler was with him.
I think you guys are all mean. Really. You do it to me in the morning too.
Wade, so right Bonhoeffer knew what fascism was and wouldv’e recognized it in Pogo. The Nazi’s arrested thousands of socialists and either killed them or imprisoned them. This is how the right tries to rewrite history.
Mespo, that these people don’t know the story behind the name National Socialism is pathetic. Don’t let them anywhere near a history classroom or book.
Wade:
Stop with your infernal logic and spot on knowledge of history. You are making the dogs whine.
Pogo:
As a political scientist, you make a good doctor. There is a significant difference between classic socialism and national socialism as most anyone past the 12th grade can tell you. Here is the sketch from wiki to entice your “scientific” mind. I often wondered why the French detested the Physiocrats. I wonder less now.
“The term “National Socialism” arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of “socialism”, as an alternative to both internationalist Marxist socialism and free market capitalism. This required a Volksgemeinschaft or “people’s community” of all Germans. It rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed ideas of equality and international solidarity, and sought to defend private property.”
“on 1, February 20, 2015 at 10:32 pmWadewilliams
Krupp, Siemens, IG Farben would be surprised as hell that they prospered in a ‘socialist’ country.”
Ha ha ha.
Crony capitalists NEVER thrive under socialism.
NEVER!!!
Ooh, let’s have another discussion about how the National SOCIALISTS were not actually socialist but etc etc etc.
Yes, bring it!!!
Do this one ONE MORE TIME!
Pogo Hears a Who
I get up late and am marginalized early. So I apologize for being dim. I went back and read down this thread and had tears running down my face about this \
– To clarify Pogo, it was you that said we shouldn’t bring up the bad things that Germans did in WW2 (or something like that, don’t recall your exact example). I wish I could find that thread. Now what is it, do you want the Disney version of History or the real one? – It’s kinder to not keep kids believing in Santa Claus for too long. Kids should also be told they are adopted from the get go. The truth can be told in a kid friendly way. –
Loving your country is Santa Claus?
No Pogo, believing in a Disney version of history is akin to believing in Santa Claus. Kids can love their country despite knowing the truth.
“Folly is a more dangerous enemy to the good than evil. One can protest against evil; it can be unmasked and, if need be, prevented by force. Evil always carries the seeds of its own destruction, as it makes people, at the least, uncomfortable.
Pogo,
Bonhoeffer was thinking about people like you when he wrote that. I would bet he wouldv’e wanted the truth of what happened in Germany to be known and not whitewashed. What’s next with you ideological purists, burning books?
and so on
who burned books
Who wouldn’t allow jazz of music by Jewish composers.
“He was imprisoned by fascists.”
Yes, indeed, but rather more correctly the National Socialists.
Which you knew already.
Who rewrote German history.
Misnomer, they were not socialist.
Yes, indeed, leftism is full of anti-Semites.
see the USSR and modern France, for example.
“Misnomer, they were not socialist.”
Is that part of AP history now?
Oh, my.
(lol)
Now you can see why I am opposed to your version of history.
Given that it is quite wrong.
Well-it’s charming and — unique and it almost got by me till I read it again after coffee.
Pogo – the deluded.
Krupp, Siemens, IG Farben would be surprised as hell that they prospered in a ‘socialist’ country.
Wadewilliams – those companies prospered because they got free or almost free labor (socialism at its best) sent by the state.
Wade, the AP History laureate.
Pogo perfectly illustrates use of propaganda in history by attempting to mislead the unknowing by calling the Nazis ‘socialists’. Pogo said:
“when he was imprisoned by socialists.”
Bonhoeffer was imprisoned by the Nazis and executed by them. Most schoolboys know the difference between fascists and socialists. Until, of course, they hate the left so much they resort to calling the Gestapo “socialists”.
One thing is sure, Bonhoeffer would have hated Pogo’s politics.
Wadewilliams wrote: “Most schoolboys know the difference between fascists and socialists.”
Most schoolboys know that you are mixing apples and oranges when you attempt to contrast fascism and socialism. Those who claim fascism is a rightist ideology are either lying or ignorant. Socialism defines an economic policy, while fascism defines a method of ruling emphasizing nationalism, an authoritative central government and a society which is willing to sacrifice all, even their very life, for the sake of society and the central government. In most cases, fascism arose out of socialism. Both Hitler and Mussolini were leftist socialists. Labor unions and the struggle for the economically underprivileged were what led them into fascist philosophy. The official name of the Nazi party was Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, the National Socialist German Worker’s Party. The Nazi party advocated socialism. It was anti-big business, anti-wealthy middle class, and anti-capitalist. Franco of Spain would perhaps be the one fascist who came from the conservative right. Hitler was a leftist socialist and a racist just like most of those within the Democratic party at that time in history. One big difference is Hitler did hate communists as much as he hated Jews. Anyone who has read Mein Kampf knows that.
DavidM is the last one one should consult about US history. He is the guy who doesn’t think much of democracy and would test people before allowing them to vote and believes universal suffrage was a mistake. Basically, he liked it best when only white men of property were allowed to vote.
Wadewilliams wrote: “He is the guy who doesn’t think much of democracy…”
Democracy weakens a country. Just look at the USA or any other country that has evolved toward greater democracy. Mob rule just doesn’t work. Try to create any organization and have every single person who is part of the organization make all the decisions by voting upon every decision that needs to be made. Your organization will fail. Democracy is a factor that has caused Congress to become so partisan and gridlocked.
An element of democracy is helpful to measure the consent of the governed, but more focus should be upon great leaders who we elect to govern in a way that most benefits society as a whole.
Wadewilliams wrote: “… and would test people before allowing them to vote…”
No, if it was up to me, I favor universal suffrage but not equal suffrage. Nevertheless, there is nothing inherently evil about governments that limit the vote to certain people or that do not allow voting at all. My personal proposal would be that everyone votes, even illegal aliens, and perhaps even children as young as 12. However, I also think votes should be weighted. Those who are citizens get a more weighted vote. Those more knowledgeable about the candidates running would get a more weighted vote. Those who have a better understanding of the power of the office for which they are voting and how government works would have a more weighted vote. Property owners would have a more weighted vote. The ignorant guy person who has not shown himself faithful and successful in life and who doesn’t know anything about the person for whom he casts a vote or even how government works would have the least weighted vote.
Wadewilliams wrote: “… and believes universal suffrage was a mistake.”
When coupled with equal suffrage, yes, that was a mistake. It weakened our country, and it has led to a deception that people think they are actually a part of government through voting. It has led to a corruption in politics so that instead of statesmen leading us, we have sycophants running for office.
Wadewilliams wrote: “Basically, he liked it best when only white men of property were allowed to vote.”
No. That is not true.
The cute part about Magna Carta is that King John and his successors ignored all of them until the Revolution.
Mespo
Yes they are “cute” I never could understand the English.
mespo – specifically which Revolution are you speaking off? There were a couple.
“Paul, On Friday evenings, the entire state of Wisconsin goes out, drinks a bunch of brandy and beer, and eat fried fish. You could take over the entire state w/ little resistance on a Friday evening. They’re all drunk and well fed.”
********
I knew there was an explanation. Talk to you tomorrow there, cheesehead. Cheers!
Feel free to avoid the facts, nick. It keeps you consistent there, professor. Can your students get refunds?
Paul, On Friday evenings, the entire state of Wisconsin goes out, drinks a bunch of brandy and beer, and eat fried fish. You could take over the entire state w/ little resistance on a Friday evening. They’re all drunk and well fed.
Nick – much like the Hessians on Christmas Day in Trenton. Although why anyone would want to take over Wisconsin is beyond me.
Get more than our share of attorneys in my tavern. They can be the nastiest. Their pipe dreams are laden w/ narcissism, raunchy humor denigrating women, and lies. Some have told me to institute an attorney quota. I’ve avoided it so far.
Indeed, His cult leader is a Nobel Peace Prize winner w/ a drone jones. “Come on man, don’t you got anybody we can drone kill today?”
I think his family is part of the corrupt and dysfunctional education industry. Fed off that teat from his youth.