As many of you know, my pet peeve is the declining comfort and services on U.S. airlines. From endless charges to new “bench seating”, U.S. airlines have shown open contempt for passengers who are treated as virtual cattle. Moreover, despite a long history of going to Congress for favors and subsidies, the airlines have a consistent record of ripping off passengers, including refusing to pass along huge savings from fuel prices in ticket prices. Now an interesting display shows the difference of leg room (another pet peeve) on airlines. The winner for the best treatment of passengers is Jet Blue which offers 34 inches to coach passengers. The worst is not surprisingly Spirit, whose CEO has previously admitted that he virtually prides himself of lousy service and comfort. The airline competing with Spirit as a virtual menace for passengers in terms of leg room is United at 30 inches. So below is the ignoble list of airlines and their ever diminishing space.
First, let’s be clear: the airlines have had a record year of profits. They simply refuse to lower ticket prices or more importantly improve passenger comfort. These airlines constantly excuse adding fees for things like bags due to fuel costs but then keep the charges when fuel costs fall. It is called gouging. At the same time, because people are now piling bags on airlines to avoid obscene charges, airlines routinely tell people who are paying to check bags not to use the upper bins for their briefcases or coats. So you are forced to stuff your belongings under your feet so that airlines can continue to pay this baggage fee scheme with passengers.
Jet Blue is interesting in the best positions for legroom on economy seats among the major U.S. airlines since it moved previously to reduce space.
The airlines, particularly United, appear to be working off the premise that by torturing passengers they can get passengers to paid extra for slightly better seats in coach plus. United is particularly aggressive in selling different seats in coach depending on the level of cramping and inconvenience. It is a perverse incentive since the sale of higher priced economy seating depends on how miserable you can make those passengers unwilling to pay more. At this rate, United will be introducing an “Iron Maiden” seat for those insisting on paying the simple economy fair.
Delta and American and US Air are little better of course at 31 inches. My problem is that a 6 foot, I get kneecapped on many flights and I can no longer work in economy because there is no room to open a simple laptop. First class has become what coach once was and coach has become what baggage holds once were on U.S. airlines. This does not even include the terrible food (if you can get it) and aging aircraft. I have found major foreign airlines like Air France to be generally better in terms of comfort.
Here is the space differences:
JetBlue 34
Virgin/Southwest 32
Delta/America/US Air 31
United 30
Spirit 28
The measurements are for the smallest configuration in economy seating offered on two common, comparable single-aisle aircraft: the Airbus A320 and Boeing 737.
DavidM
Yeah. It’s a crying shame those 9 year olds can’t work in the mines anymore.
Mapquest.
Driving from SF to LA (generic areas) is only 383 miles and takes less than 7 hours….if you don’t stop for food and restroom breaks, that is. The fuel cost is less than $60. Car pool people!!!! Share the ride.
Taking a plane is about half that time but triple or more the cost. Plus all the hassles of being in the airport, finding a rental car at the destination end. TSA pawing your private parts and stealing from your luggage.
Personally I would take the party or limo bus set up.
Save the people of California BILLIONS of dollars. 🙂
Wade, I should say, however, that I do agree with you that we need good regulations for the airline industry. It requires time for corporations to correct their mistakes, and the loss of life involved in flying is too high a price to support unregulated air travel.
Your 11:11 comment did not leave me with that impression as well as older comments about CA high speed rail.
California high speed rail. The train from nowhere to nowhere is a non functional piece of ….. The idea to connect SF to LA for commuters might be a good one IF the project actually did that. It doesn’t connect anything with anything right now. Not only does this project destroy valuable farm land, it is years and years away from connecting the two destinations.
IF/when it does connect, the cost will still be as expensive or more expensive than flying and take about the same amount of time or MORE with all the stops along the way.
Even driving a rental car from SF to LA is more time efficient and less costly than either flying or a bazillion dollar train. A more logical choice would be to have a nicely equipped charter/limo style bus that goes non stop from one location to the other. Avoid the TSA and travel in luxury.
DBQ wrote: “A more logical choice would be to have a nicely equipped charter/limo style bus that goes non stop from one location to the other. Avoid the TSA and travel in luxury.”
The Japanese have done this in their commute from the Narita Airport to Tokyo. They have train, but a nice limousine bus ride is also an economical option.
Come to think of it, last November I traveled from Prague to Brno in the Czech Republic on a bus too. Extremely affordable compared to the train, and each seat had its own television and also Wifi was available.
DBQ
I’m glad to learn that you agree that rail, air, and road systems are integral to our society. Your 11:11 comment did not leave me with that impression as well as older comments about CA high speed rail. Thanks for the clarification
Now, of course, the free market system existed long before RR. Everyone should have learned about The Gilded Age, The Robber Barons, child labor, twelve-hour days, the Shirtwaist Factory fire, the company store system, the meat packing industry, unsafe mining conditions and city tenements in high school. It won’t surprise you, that I believe government regulation and unions cleaned up a lot of those conditions. I would not presume to suggest what you think improved those conditions.
I shouldn’t have tossed in RR into the mix – he just hit the air traffic controllers. It was Carter in 1978 that accomplished airline deregulation of the CAB Act of 1938.
As to lawsuits? I’m glad we have the right to sue if some dumb schmuck takes a shortcut and causes a horrific accident.
I also want highly skilled, highly compensated mechanics making those planes meet strict standards of regulation.
A comfortable seat would be nice, also. I can bring my own sandwich.
Wadewilliams wrote: “I believe government regulation and unions cleaned up a lot of those conditions.”
Unfortunately, you are correct about this. It is a shame my children are not allowed to work and learn skills at an early age. It is a shame that restaurants like Applebees will not hire under 18 because of the regulations that require extra breaks for younger teenagers. It is no wonder that it is so difficult for businesses to find good employees with a good work ethic these days with all the government regulations that discourage young people from working. You call it a clean up. I think they went too far and made things much worse. At least with a factory abusing kids, people can see the problem for themselves and tell their children not to work there. Now the government keeps them from working at all. That is not progress.
DBQ can do fine without airlines or rail, but that’s no way to run a country. She knows that.
Now now now. Don’t put words into my mouth. I never said we don’t need rail or air transport. I don’t personally ride on a train nowadays, although given the choice between rail and air transport I would take the train. At least you can get up, walk around, go to the bar car and get plastered and go to sleep if you have a sleeping cabin. We once took the train from the Arizona border (I think) to Mexico City. It took 5 days and was really a great trip. I would do that again.
Rail, air and highway systems are integral to our society in being able to move people and things around. Amazon Prime is my friend and everything that I buy through them is transported to my doorstep by one of those methods.
That I don’t personally use railroads or fly on airlines has nothing to do with how society should structure and protect those methods of transportation.
The free market system existed long before Ronald Reagan, long before government got involved and effed it up with layers and layers of regulations, taxes and potentials for lawsuits…… and Wade knows that.
The CEO of Spirit, the one who seems to delight in the 28 inch seat, should be required, as a condition of his employment, to travel in the very seats he relegates to the passengers of his airlines. The same should apply to all of the company’s top executives. Wishful thinking. Only then would policies change, but they won’t, as the top brass take advantage of their perks and fly around in roomy private jets. Let em eat cake.
Funny, isn’t it.
Pogo suggests that the free-market system in the US isn’t working. You know – the one Reagan created. No, for a real free-market we now need foreign competition. Not a word about how our jammed airports and skies would accommodate all that additional traffic.
Regulation is what is needed, folks.
DBQ can do fine without airlines or rail, but that’s no way to run a country. She knows that.
Pogo
Maybe the airlines could just provide passengers with seats which wouldn’t require the use of heparin shots. That would be a novel idea. You may feel that government intrusion is inherently evil in all aspects of our lives, but this is one example of the need for government to step in and remedy a wrong which is not being addressed by the corporations. You joke about providing heparin shots to passengers, but there is a real health and safety issue involved. One would hope that the executives at the airlines would appreciate that, but, obviously, they don’t. Would a regulation mandating the basic minimum amount of space for a passenger really constitute unnecessary government entanglement? Really??? If so, bring it on!
Before the most recent airline mergers, the Wall St Journal reported that the total profit earned by ALL the airlines in the entire history of US civil aviation was:
ZERO.
We need PETA advocating for us. They got a law passed in California for egg laying chickens to have room in their cages to flap their wings, which is more than a center seat in coach allows. I don’t fly anymore, although I have lifetime passes. I usually made business class, but I am not risking coach and having some jerk in seat in front of me reclining back to where his sleeping, mouth agape face is in my lap. My only recourse would be to recline mine back, too. I will not do to the passenger behind me what I consider rude of the guy ahead. There are those who would argue the jerk paid full fare and deserved to sprawl. That is hardly an argument. Mine would be – however cramped, my space is my space. I didn’t steal it, the company gave it to me. The space he is entitled to is the space he paid for. My seat could have gone to a revenue passenger and he would have encroached on that, too.
The one time I was ever in a center coach seat, I was with two arm-rest hogs. The aisle guy didn’t even have his arm on the right arm rest – I guess fearful of getting bumped by a beverage cart, preferring the protected center one. Finally I asked him, “Is that my arm-rest over there? Could you hand it to me?”
Levity is no laughing matter! They should issue straight jackets with center seats because in 3 hours you are going to go nuts figuring out what to do with your arms.
My real reason is, I will not be abused by TSA. The last time I flew, I took a purse I had not used in a while. It had several inner pockets. At security TSA (and I) discovered a forgotten tiny pair of French embroidery scissors with gold plated handles that I am sure delighted the fat and formidable “guardian of our safety” who appropriated them. At least a 72 year old female potential terrorist was prevented committing mayhem on the flight to Lihue. Proves the system works, as they say.
Health, not heath. Lol! 🙂
Maybe the airlines could sell subcutaneous injections of heparin on long-haul flights.
The airlines can’t expect to avail themselves to the multitude of subsidies, given them by our government, and then not expect
to be the subject of regulation with regard to a standard, minimum space required for all passengers in coach. The flippant remarks about choosing another mode of transport serve no purpose. Some people need to travel for business and don’t have the time or luxury to break out the old motor home for a leisurely excursion. Regardless of the reason that a passenger travels, the airlines should have to tow the line and comply with a set, basic standard involving the space allotted passengers or risk losing those precious subsidies. The dire heath consequences, such as blood clots resulting from having one’s legs cramped for extended periods of time, should convince some that these regulations are necessary for the general public.
“Bruce
You sound like a socialist. Sounds like you want the government to run the airlines. We bought a motorhome, a great way to travel.”:
No one wants the Government to run the airlines. Just put some regulations in place for the things that the airlines are incapable of doing themselves.
The free market is broken. Blame Government, blame Wall Street, its probably both. But it is broken and I don’t see how else to fix it short of government intervention.
“… and throughout history have barely been able to cover their cost of capital.”
And here again is the answer.
Whenever the market fails, you can always find the government in there, causing the damage.
“The old saying is that you get what you pay for.”
Not with US airlines.
You get what they give you.
For me, air flight has become so unpleasant that I rarely do it anymore unless I must. Never for pleasure, just for work. I went to a conference in Hawaii in January. The seats on Delta were so small it was literally painful.
Smaller seats make it even less likely I’ll fly.
I expect the industry will survive without me.
(I acknowledge there is some price differential, but one shouldn’t be offered a seat only malnourished sixth graders can physically sit in. It’s ridiculous.)
Over 100 US airlines have gone bankrupt. Up until recently the industry had NEVER Been profitable. In real dollar terms airfares have barely risen. We want a financially strong industry to purchase new aircraft (extremely expensive) to burn less fuel (lower carbon footprint) and to compete internationally with state funded airlines. New aircraft also enhance safety of air travel. Gov needs to build more airports, when was the last time a new airport was built? Gov runs the air traffic control system and restricts all airline flights and is in desperate need of upgrades. Passengers pay the highest taxes of ANY industry. It’s easy to blame the airlines, but they are the most regulated, taxed, restricted, and throughout history have barely been able to cover their cost of capital.
The US airline industry is a state-sanctioned oligopoly.
They don’t serve customers because they don’t have to.
From the left-leaning Brookings Institute in 2012:
My old man worked as a jet engine mechanic for Pratt & Whitney for 30 years. He was a flight mechanic in the Navy during WW2 and used the GI Bill to get his A and P license in Bakersfield, Ca. after the war. His first job was in the assembly plant in East Hartford, Ct. building new engines. He hated it and was about to quit and go back working in the family restaurant biz. But, his general foreman didn’t want to lose him. So, he suggested my old man try working overhaul and repair @ the Southington, Ct. plant. It was a wise move. Overhaul and repair allowed him to use his skills, not just work like a robot.
When I was in grade school, TWA recruited my old man to work @ the NYC airports. He went down there to see the operation. He thought is was somewhat shoddy. But, the salary was better and the benefits much better. He thought about free flights to Italy for all of us to see family. But, the shoddiness bothered him. You see, I would go to ball games, bowling tournaments, and just socialize w/ my old man and his work buddies. They were old school. They took immense pride in their work, knowing it meant people’s lives. They worked on Air Force One engines. He became a foreman in the 70’s and saw that pride evaporating w/ many younger guys. He retired in the 80’s.
Mom would tell the story, Dad never did. In the late 80’s she and my Dad were visiting my sister in Houston. As an aside, my old man always wore a tie and jacket when flying. He was blue collar, but that’s what those guys did. All of his work buddies were the same. Well, as the plane in Houston was accelerating down the runway, my old man, sitting on an aisle seat, calmly turned to Mom and said, “We’re not taking off.” Mom says she heard nothing and all the passengers around them were just acting normal. But, a second later the takeoff was aborted and they went back to the gate and waited for a new plane.
Nick, Just how much concern for doing a good job and airline safety do you think a contractor’s workers will have? Especially when they are paid just a bit above minimum wage, no benefits, and will never have themselves or their families fly on those planes. Remember ValueJet? That crash of the DC-9 into the Everglades was caused by outside contractors doing the work and not having any idea of what they were doing when they packed the O2 generators into cardboard boxes after having removed them from another plane. None of those workers had a license, nor did they need one.
ValueJet was an example of a virtual airline since most of the employees did not work for the company, but were ALL contracted out. The only persons who were on the books were the flight crews since they could not get away with them not being employees. But the start up Nordic Air is trying to do away with that by using Southeast Asian air crews who are contract pilots to fly their planes. So they can hire those pilots at half the wages of US or EU ones, at half the experience. We just saw what happens when you do that in the Taiwan ATR 70 crash. The inexperienced crew shut down the WRONG engine when one engine failed. Good luck! The old saying is that you get what you pay for.
Ryan Air is trying to do the same with its flight crews and they are running into trouble in Europe since they are not carrying enough fuel to make the flight safely. They are leading the calls for low fuel emergency on all of their runs. PLUS the fact that most of their pilots are from Eastern Europe or Russia. I know how those pilots fly and they are accidents waiting to happen since they don’t believe in rules or regulations. In short, if a rule can be broken, they do it as a matter of principle. Just remember how the Polish pilots flew the President of Poland into the ground. Minimums? NO SUCH THING!
When I worked at United, we had some mechanics get fired for poor performance, and we even had a strong union shop. So to think that unions prevent incompetents from being fired is simply a lie. We in the union had every reason to kick out such types since we and our loved ones were on those planes. I found that the overwhelming majority of guys I worked with were excellent workers and did great work and were proud of that too. In contrast, a few years ago in Greensboro, NC, ICE did a raid on an aircraft repair station that was being used for outsourced maintenance by some major airlines. and they arrested 16 illegals who were doing the work without licenses, or fraudulent ones. Then the guy who was fired from United when I was there, got a job at a similar place and was signing off work when he was not competent to do that work himself, much less inspect it.
BRING BACK THE CAB NOW!