The debate of the fairness and efficacy of quota systems heated up this week after German legislators have passed a law requiring the top 100 companies to allot at least 30 percent of the seats on their boards to women within the next two years. The bill also mandated increased in women in upper level positions for some 3,500 companies. The companies could face sanctions if they cannot find enough women to fill the quota.
I have long been a critic of quota systems and this is no exception. While I certainly agree with the motivation behind the law, the emphasis of regulations should be to tear down barriers to women — not to force hiring based on gender. I am a firm believer that the market works against discriminatory values and practices. Women have made amazing strides in business and politics, as vividly shown by the leadership of Germany by Chancellor Angela Merkel.
There is clearly an underrepresentation of women on these boards. However, the way to erase that differential is to guarantee opportunities for women and to combat discriminatory practices in my view.
What do you think?
Source: NBC
happypappies,
I spend a lot of time writing blog articles and am a published children’s poet. Still, I find it difficult writing on demand. I’ve attended writing workshops where participants were asked to write a poem on a particular subject in a short period of time. I found that difficult. I think most children/adults do better when they can write about subjects that are of interest to them…and don’t have any time constraints
I do a lot of rewriting to insure that my blog articles are concise and coherent. I don’t know how I’d fare on a test if I were required to write about a subject that didn’t inspire me.
Elaine M
You were referring earlier to grading the multiple choice as opposed to the essay tests and I simply meant that most teachers should be cognent enough to read an essay answer and grade it.
DBQ,
Great conversation! 🙂
“Still……there has to be a way to evaluate the students to determine IF they are making progress and where they need more help. The way we are doing it now, really doesn’t seem to be working.”
If this is the focus and the point of the tests, then shouldn’t the teacher’s metrics within the classroom be sufficient? Standardized tests weren’t even invented until the 1920s, if I recall. I think it was a test that became the precursor to the SAT; so, they weren’t even intended for primary students.
“However, don’t you agree that some parts of English can be more precise, such as the definition of words or what is a subject or verb.”
Yes, but there really isn’t a need to use a multiple-choice test to demonstrate progress or understanding. This can be handled using classwork. Fill in the blank, circling or underlining the appropriate words, proofreading assignments, writing sentences using a certain structure or vocabulary in context, and sentence diagramming all demonstrate understanding and progress.
“Math and science, I would think, lend themselves to being more applicable to being evaluated with multiple choice or fill in the blanks. The facts are the facts in science and (generally) there is only one answer to a math calculation.”
Multiple choice exams can be used for these subjects more readily, but, short answer and long answer essay (which are similar to narration) demonstrate deeper understanding, I think. Once you’ve put something into your own words and had to organize it on paper, it is more likely to held in long-term memory. I knew people who could memorize astounding amounts of information, but it was dumped out of short-term memory onto the test and forgotten.
“Historical facts might also be amenable to multiple choice or fill in the blanks. Dates, times, places, names. Geography.”
Technically yes, but, exams like this do not lend themselves to obtaining deep understanding. Short answer and long answer essay, narration, and papers develop higher-order thinking and understanding better. Analysis and synthesis can occur when understanding moves beyond things like “On what day did Pearl Harbor occur?”
Geography is best learned with matching, fill-in-the-blank or within discussions of other topics. IMHO. 🙂
First, the public school system in this country is not a monolith. Schools vary from state to state…and the schools in different communities in a state are not all the same. In my state, most of the funding for schools comes from real estate taxes. That’s why wealthier communities usually have more money to spend on education.
I have no idea what mandatory non-teaching tasks you’re talking about. I wasn’t burdened with such things. My entire focus was on my students–on preparing lesson plans and activities for them, making materials for my classroom, organizing field trips, meeting with parents.
What do you consider to be “too large of a classroom?” In the district where I taught, the average class size ranged from about 21-24 students. I wasn’t frustrated. I found the size of my classrooms very workable. I was able to do whole class instruction–as well as work with small groups of children and provide individualized instruction to my students when they needed extra help.
I was able to evaluate my students on a daily basis. You can do that if you work closely with your students, are a careful observer, and look over the work they do every day.
@ Elaine
Yes. Multiple choice tests are not really the best way to evaluate some topics. The student can guess and get close enough. That only works in horseshoes and hand grenades
Some things are more subjective and can never really be evaluated with a multiple choice….fill in the bubbles test. As you say the subjective topics of composition, writing, art can really only be evaluated in the whole by looking at the whole essay or piece of artwork. However, don’t you agree that some parts of English can be more precise, such as the definition of words or what is a subject or verb. But to evaluate the quality of writing, as in a short story or other composition, there is no substitute for actually reading the entire composition. It is very subjective.
Math and science, I would think, lend themselves to being more applicable to being evaluated with multiple choice or fill in the blanks. The facts are the facts in science and (generally) there is only one answer to a math calculation. Historical facts might also be amenable to multiple choice or fill in the blanks. Dates, times, places, names. Geography.
Frankly, I would never be a good teacher for several reasons.
First. I don’t have the patience to deal with small children in a mass setting. Given the class sizes I don’t see how you can possibly give the attention needed to all children. I could probably deal with college level students. But elementary….GAAAH spare me.
Second: I would be a rather strict disciplinarian and therefore not be able to be a very favored or liked teacher. I know myself and I know my limitations 🙂
Third:. I don’t think the time that teachers are given to spend with students is enough to do a good job. Too many things to do. Too many mandatory non-teaching tasks. Too large of a classroom to be able to devote time needed. This would frustrate me beyond distraction.
Teaching is hard enough without having non-teachers putting such a huge administrative load that detracts from being able to teach the subjects.
Still……there has to be a way to evaluate the students to determine IF they are making progress and where they need more help. The way we are doing it now, really doesn’t seem to be working.
“But again. Without some testing. How does anyone, the student or the teacher know that the children are absorbing the material. There is nothing worse than a graduating student who is barely able to read and is non functional in math and who is ignorant of history. What a complete waste not only of 12 years of a child’s life, but a waste of a mind.”
Multiple choice tests are not the best way to evaluate everything a student has learned in class–but they are easy to correct/score. That’s why they are used instead of other assessments which are more difficult and time-consuming to administer or grade. How does an English teacher evaluate his/her students’ progress in writing? By testing them…or by reading the papers that they write for class? What about art teachers? Should they give their students multiple choice tests…or evaluate the portfolios that they produce for their art class?
Most teachers don’t object to testing students…and usually find tests helpful in assessing their students knowledge. The problem is what has become an extreme focus on prepping our children for high-stakes tests today.
It’s important to evaluate the tests that we are using to assess our students’ knowledge. If the tests are poorly constructed…test questions poorly written/confusing, they will not be good ways to assess our children’s knowledge.
Elaine M
Multiple choice tests are not the best way to evaluate everything a student has learned in class–but they are easy to correct/score. That’s why they are used instead of other assessments which are more difficult and time-consuming to administer or grade. How does an English teacher evaluate his/her students’ progress in writing? By testing them…or by reading the papers that they write for class? What about art teachers? Should they give their students multiple choice tests…or evaluate the portfolios that they produce for their art class?
It would seem as difficult as it is to get a job these days that there could be more discretion in hiring and the qualifications set up for a teacher.
If a teacher is unable to process an essay question in a grade imo, she/he should not be teaching. I am sure you would have not problem with that because you have a superior grasp of language and that’s what teachers are supposed to do. This was my original frustration actually. Poor teaching quality.
I personally had the most ungodly Math teachers and had to wait until I got to College to take College Algebra. I did not know how to factor and I got a brilliant teacher and it was all I took for one summer semester. He told all of us that he was Gay and a war dissenter which actually made him Popular in 1973. I passed with an 89% and was very proud.
Teaching is Very important. I think testing is an art. If you can’t make testing a learning experience there is no point
btw this is a very refreshing thread compared to what else is going on regarding the blog 😉
thanks for the conversation
You sound like a well-read, curious person, DBQ, so I’m guessing you like to still learn about things as an adult. Do you take tests on material you’ve learned outside of a formal classroom? Or, did you take tests to learn your ABCs or your colors? Tests can sometimes help you see what you know and what you don’t know, but they aren’t always necessary.
Thank you. Actually, yes. I did continue taking tests after college. When I became licensed for my financial business, I had to take the self study testing for the Series 7, then later Series 65. Both very difficult tests so I rigorously used the testing materials to find out where I was missing. Later I put myself though the CFP program and those tests were even harder.
Without self testing, I would not have known which areas to focus MORE time and effort on
I recently decided to brush up on my Algebra and other math skills, for fun. I know I’m weird. I use the Kahn Academy on line free classes. https://www.khanacademy.org/ They have some really interesting classes!!!.
I think that it should be testing as children get on in school which becomes more important as they are older and able to handle the stress of being testes.. Massive and stressful testing of children in the lower elementary school ages is not really productive (IMHO).
But again. Without some testing. How does anyone, the student or the teacher know that the children are absorbing the material. There is nothing worse than a graduating student who is barely able to read and is non functional in math and who is ignorant of history. What a complete waste not only of 12 years of a child’s life, but a waste of a mind.
Looking at the problems in schools today. I would, if I were young and had small children, find a way to home school. I know that isn’t for everyone either in temperament, ability of the parent or financially feasible, but I could do it.
Those great scores would only more closely approximate how well a teacher was doing if the tests were only used and designed to “take the temperature” of a class.
True. If the class performs at the same level required or even better ….say third grade math or reading, …year after year the teacher is doing a good job. When you have a sudden drop in overall performance there is something going on. Either you have a teacher who is NOT teaching well…OR you can have a class that has a sudden change in composition and has nothing to do with the teacher. For instance, if you have a large influx of third graders who are not English speaking, then naturally the reading scores or testing will be down. On the other hand, you get a group of children who are more advanced than the age grouping and suddenly the scores go UP.
IMO the purpose of testing is not to grade the whole school to get money…..but to see how well each individual student is progressing. If the teacher can, he or she, will then be able to put more help where needed.
Learning should be FUN and not a chore for the children.
I was fortunate to have my daughter attend a small rural school from first grade onward. (There were 36 kids in her high school graduating class) The school lacked many things, no good computer lab, science equipment was dated, the school itself was old and dated. Older books and not much in the way of audio visual What it DID have were small classrooms with teachers who cared about and knew their students and knew and socialized with the parents. (In a small town area you do get to know everyone) The teachers knew the students for years as they passed through the system and were able to see the changes either for good or for bad and do something to help. Engaged parents and an engaged supportive community for the schools.
Did we have a few lackadaisical or inadequate teachers, of course. But that would be the case everywhere. All in all my daughter got a good education and graduated Phi Beta Kappa from a well respected private university.
Elaine,
“Tests may appear to show that a teacher is doing a commendable job if his/her students score well on their standardized tests. What some people fail to consider is that the educators who spend lots of time teaching to the test aren’t really doing what is best for their students.”
Those great scores would only more closely approximate how well a teacher was doing if the tests were only used and designed to “take the temperature” of a class. Unfortunately, you are right, teaching to the test demonstrates nothing but kids who have learned to take a certain kind of test well. (And, it leaves out all the other variables DBQ brought up that could affect test performance.)
In my part of the world, the schools are all ramping up for the annual high-stakes standardized tests. So, regular learning has been put on hold to prepare for these tests. (My sample size is small–two different families in two different districts have attested as much to what’s going on in their kids’ classrooms.)
So glad I homeschool…
Tests may appear to show that a teacher is doing a commendable job if his/her students score well on their standardized tests. What some people fail to consider is that the educators who spend lots of time teaching to the test aren’t really doing what is best for their students.
DBQ,
I think we are, overall, in agreement.
“The system needs to be less regimented and more locally based.
Get the Federal Government OUT of the education system.”
I heartily agree with your above sentiment!
“I don’t see a problem with testing (in general).”
Tests do have a purpose, to a degree. What are your thoughts on standardized tests, in particular.
“How do you know if you are learning if you don’t have periodic tests on the material?”
You sound like a well-read, curious person, DBQ, so I’m guessing you like to still learn about things as an adult. Do you take tests on material you’ve learned outside of a formal classroom? Or, did you take tests to learn your ABCs or your colors? Tests can sometimes help you see what you know and what you don’t know, but they aren’t always necessary. But, we probably agree on this. 🙂
“Tests are a good measurement of learning, but more importantly give you, the student, feed back on where you need to focus more attention.”
Yes, sometimes. Progress with daily work and narration can bring into focus where more attention is needed, too.
“Each child…or adult…is tested and the test is for their benefit.”
Except that standardized tests (I’m guessing you mean these tests) aren’t a super measure of this. For instance, my husband NEVER completed a standardized test before the time was up. He is a very methodical, careful person. His full knowledge was never really accurately measured and he did not get tracked in the best way (he had to wait til college to take calc because of the lower track).
I’m not too perturbed by standardized tests (though reservations do linger), so long as they are only intended as a means to “take the temperature” of a child’s schooling.
“Not for the glory of the administration or to be tied to getting grants and money for the school. This just leads to the pressure on the students and cheating by the teachers and administrators.”
I agree.
“HOWEVER, this focus on test results for the entire school, as opposed to being a learning tool for the individual, is wrong, misguided and a distraction to the actual learning process.”
Absolutely!
“Not everyone learns at the same pace, in the same way or at the same level. BUT….what about the kid who is struggling and needs additional help and doesn’t need the pressure.”
I agree; that is a major concern. The additional help doesn’t really happen as well as it should. A kid earning 70% (in schoolwork even, not just on standardized tests) is passed along and expected to learn and understand new information that built upon the earlier bit that was only 70% understood. Mastery of multiplication is apparently not a prerequisite for division. But, this aggravation is somewhat off-topic since the focus was high-stakes standardized tests. 🙂
“Yes. Tests can also show if a teacher is being effective…or not…..in some ways. If the entire class of students is falling far behind their peers, the test results give a place to start investigating why. Poor materials? Ineffective teacher? Disruptive environment? Students with not enough skills to meet the grade level? Non English speaking facing difficulty in absorbing the materials?”
Excellent points. I have the sense that schools, administrations, and bureaucrats aren’t really interested in digging into the root problems. They end up just hanging the teachers out to dry. 🙁
Jumping in late here.
I don’t see a problem with testing (in general). How do you know if you are learning if you don’t have periodic tests on the material. Tests are a good measurement of learning, but more importantly give you, the student, feed back on where you need to focus more attention.
Each child…or adult…is tested and the test is for their benefit. Not for the glory of the administration or to be tied to getting grants and money for the school. This just leads to the pressure on the students and cheating by the teachers and administrators.
HOWEVER, this focus on test results for the entire school, as opposed to being a learning tool for the individual, is wrong, misguided and a distraction to the actual learning process. Not everyone learns at the same pace, in the same way or at the same level. They LOVED my daughter when the testing came out because she was always on the far end of the curve and brought the averages up. So..good for her. BUT….what about the kid who is struggling and needs additional help and doesn’t need the pressure.
Yes. Tests can also show if a teacher is being effective…or not…..in some ways. If the entire class of students is falling far behind their peers, the test results give a place to start investigating why. Poor materials? Ineffective teacher? Disruptive environment? Students with not enough skills to meet the grade level? Non English speaking facing difficulty in absorbing the materials?
Those things are not the same from class to class, location to location or by teacher to teacher.
The system needs to be less regimented and more locally based.
Get the Federal Government OUT of the education system.
Elaine,
“No one–or nearly no one–has been listening to teachers.”
It sure seems like it!
“The politicians, the media, and corporate interests didn’t care to hear what educators had to say.”
I heartily agree. It is especially sad that the media refused/refuses to listen. You’d think they’d want to actually present both sides of the argument. There is no real debate if only one side is explored or presented. 🙁 Good grief, people should be given all the information to make up their own minds.
“Everyone seems to think they know more about educating children/what is best for children than professional educators do.”
There is plenty of child development research that is being completely ignored in the face of these reforms. It appears no one with any real understanding or any real stake in the matter (besides a corporate stake) was or is consulted.
I am suspicious of any high-level person in even the teachers’ organizations being consulted; could their agenda be to gain more power on the Hill versus actually representing the needs of students and teachers and end up working a deal that still causes problems? I am cynical.
“Let us not forget that there are billions of dollars to be made in the education market. Many individuals and businesses are making lots of money off of school reform.”
Crony capitalism/corporatism rears its ugly head again. Man, if only someone could get the Occupy Wall Street and Tea Party folks to focus their concerns and ignore their peripheral differences; then they’d (we’d) be a force to be reckoned with! 🙂
Regarding the high-stakes tests, I just learned something about opting out of the high-stakes tests that horrifies me. A friend with a child in public school said that she was told by the principal that while she could certainly have her child opt-out of the tests, the child would still be counted. This would drag down their testing scores, potentially putting the school in jeopardy of losing funding.
My friend dislikes the stress put on the kids for these tests and that they are so focused on preparing for the tests in order to score well rather than really getting to learn, but, she feels she cannot opt-out without potentially harming the already struggling school. 🙁
That is coercion!
If the Politico article is accurate, that Democrats on the Hill want to keep accountability in the law, what the heck are they thinking?! Why are they not discussing scrapping the whole darn thing? Is there anything redeeming about the law that I’m missing?
You have read more about it than I have, I believe. Is there anything redeeming, or would it be better to scrap it and start over?
Happypappies,
Good conversation. 🙂 Hope the information helps.
Prairie Rose,
“…Democrats have not heard from, or are not listening to, teachers.”
No one–or nearly no one–has been listening to teachers. Teachers spoke up when the school reform movement brought us the mania for high stakes testing years ago. The politicians, the media, and corporate interests didn’t care to hear what educators had to say. Everyone seems to think they know more about educating children/what is best for children than professional educators do.
Let us not forget that there are billions of dollars to be made in the education market. Many individuals and businesses are making lots of money off of school reform.
*****
Top 16 NYC charter school executives earn more than Chancellor Dennis Walcott
Big paychecks are called ‘outrageous’ as New York City charter schools claim their students would face cuts if the schools are charged rent under a new mayor.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/top-16-nyc-charter-school-execs-out-earn-chancellor-dennis-walcott-article-1.1497717
Here is Dr. Lustig’s TEDx talk on sugar:
Happypappies,
“My friend is a diabetic with a fatty liver and a heart condition. Believe it or not, she was born with the congenital defects to be that way in her family. She cooks all of the things that are gluten free but she thinks her husband and grandson will die without sugar. She thinks it is cruel not to give it to them.”
Your friend’s fatty liver is very concerning. She could very likely require a liver transplant if her liver situation is not turned around (a fatty liver can progress to essentially cirrhosis of the liver without being an alcoholic).
Dr. Robert Lustig, a pediatric endocrinologist at UC-San Francisco, has an outstanding presentation about the effects of sugar. It’s called Sugar: The Bitter Truth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
Does she cook with gluten-free products or gluten-free dishes using real food? Going from conventional processed food to gluten-free processed food is no better for health.
I am going to send this whole thread to her. I told her how we were not understanding each other at first because of the situation about the schools and then I got you guys to listen because I honestly want to learn. Some of these threads here go to hell in a hand-basket and I try to avoid them. I frequent jt but I have a life and do other Internet activities also. I really do appreciate this. She lead me to believe they do not eat any gluten free processed foods. She is a Farmer. And I mean a real one as in a Sharecropper’s Daughter and will tell you when it is going to snow like little house on the prairie. She is probably like you. I kind of live in the country myself. Thank you so much for your help
Happypappies,
I am not sure whether it is a good thing they are holding up the vote; it is unclear. Right now, the bill does not have support as it is, so by delaying a vote the bill could be improved. People hate the bill; they don’t want it “moderated”. The paragraphs below are from the link from Politico you provided.
“Education doesn’t always divide along party lines, but current differences between leadership of the two parties are vast. Republicans want to cede more control to states and localities to make decisions on education and dump many defined programs.
To Democrats and the civil rights community, stripping the federal role out of education would signal a return to times before No Child Left Behind, when many states didn’t even collect data about the achievement gap between poor and minority students and their peers. Democrats want the bill to retain strong accountability measures”
I try to be somewhat skeptical of what I read in papers because too many journalists have an agenda they write to support that ends up twisting people’s words. It sounds like here that Democrats are actually supporting NCLB, especially the portions that are pretty problematic–the accountability measures (i.e., punitive measures). That sounds like they are in opposition to teachers, who tend to be Democrats. Weird.
So, to rephrase, Republicans want less federal government intrusion in education and Democrats want to keep the degree of federal government intrusion as it is? Apparently, Democrats have not heard from, or are not listening to, teachers.
Elaine, what is your take on the reauthorization bill for NCLB?
Elaine,
“The thought [of homeschooling] has entered my mind. Still, I think about the wonderful experiences that my daughter had in elementary school.”
Are those wonderful experiences your daughter had 20 years ago still happening at the schools near you now? If yes, that’s fantastic! A friend of mine’s kids go to a non-charter alternative school in CA that sounds like so much fun (though the regular public school next door is struggling). So, there are some schools/districts that are bucking the trend.
“In addition, she remains good friends with some of the girls she met in the early grades. I met most of my best friends in elementary school and high school. They are women that I have been close to for more than half a century.”
Friends can still be found, even while homeschooling. 🙂
Prairie Rose
Her grandson is not going to a highly recommended school now. they live in the country. She drives him back and forth 40 miles every day to keep him from the school they pay taxes at that locked him in the closet in kindergarten and Jefferson City would do nothing about it 🙁
My friend is a diabetic with a fatty liver and a heart condition. Believe it or not, she was born with the congenital defects to be that way in her family. She cooks all of the things that are gluten free but she thinks her husband and grandson will die without sugar. She thinks it is cruel not to give it to them. Can’t seem to get it you know? I cut and pasted that information and I am going to send it to her on Facebook and in a letter. She has not been responding well lately and I am very concerned. The Mother is a hopeless case.
She said that Math testing is non existent.
So was it a good thing that they are holding back the vote on No Child Left Behind or not?
I only came up with the Home Schooling idea because I am so frustrated with the Government Mismanagement I could scream. I know I am emotional about it. I got carried away with describing ways to do it. That is my nature. I get carried away lol.
Oh well 😉
I am really glad you gave me the information to give to Bonnie and Dylan and maybe she will listen. I will have her talk to her one Aunt who owns a Health food Store and maybe she will listen to her.
Who’s grading your kids’ assessment test in California?
CAASPP is the new standardized test
3/17/15
http://www.kcra.com/news/whos-grading-your-kids-assessment-test-in-california/31857614
Excerpt:
SACRAMENTO, Calif. (KCRA) —California will spend nearly $240 million in three years to administer and score its new standardized test, the California Assessment of Student Performance and Progress.
For that amount of money, one might expect certified teachers would be responsible for scoring portions of the exam that require students to answer with handwritten responses, rather than filling in bubbles.
FairTest: Test Resistance Goes Viral
By Diane Ravitch
March 20, 2015
http://dianeravitch.net/2015/03/20/fairtest-test-resistance-goes-viral/
Excerpt:
The Opt Out movement is spreading like wildfire. It is led by parents, not unions, though some union locals have voted to honor the wishes of parents. Parents understand that the tests are designed to fail most children. They understand that test prep and testing are stealing time from instruction. They aren’t commanded by anyone. They are listening to their children
This message was written by Bob Schaeffer of FairTest:
Normally, FairTest sends out these news clips summaries once a week, early each Tuesday afternoon. With school standardized exam season now in full gear, however, the flow of stories about testing resistance and reform actions is accelerating rapidly. This special edition — with updates from more than half the 50 states over just three days — reports on the first, too-modest steps by policy makers across the U.S. to respond to the growing grassroots pressure for assessment reform.
As more students opt out, parents demonstrate, school board members pass resolutions and polls show strong public opposition to test misuse and overuse, we are confident that there will be many more updates by next Tuesday and in the coming weeks.
Elaine M
I guess I am starting to get it here – I ran across this last night
http://www.nj.com/education/2015/03/parcc_opt_out_task_force_bills_clear_assembly_pane.html
And lots more.
Good luck with your fight against the government and the powers that be because you are going to need it. Especially since your Grandchildren are so young.