Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito (left) is moving forward with a controversial plan to decriminalize such offenses as urinating in public — part of an effort to rollback on criminal offenses used by police to stop and detain suspects under the “broken windows” approach of Police Commissioner Bill Bratton. Critics have charged that the murder rate and other crimes are already up under Mayor Bill de Blasio due to the tensions with police and new policies against stop and frisk maneuvers.
Mark-Viverito appears to believe that criminalizing urination is only a pretext for police stops or a minor offense for the city. Most citizens are likely to disagree. First, there are the health issues of human waste in the street. Second, there are the economic issues of a major tourism location that will now treat urination as a minor matter subject to a summons, which is unlikely to be honored. Finally, given the large number of homeless people and drinkers in New York, the decriminalization of this offense could trigger a urine tsunami as Mark-Viverito removes the threat of arrest.
Mark-Viverito also wants to decriminalize public consumption of alcohol and jumping subway turnstiles. Those are likely to also result in behavorial changes that are inimical for the city. The subway jumping is particularly troubling for a city struggling with its budget issues. If people are seen as walking away when caught, it is likely to encourage greater numbers of jumpers with both budgetary and safety implications for the system. Yet, there is an argument to make on this crime and, in my view, it is a closer question than the public urination decriminalization effort of Mark-Viverito.
The other decriminalized offenses of riding a bike on a sidewalk, failure to obey a park sign, or being in a park after dark are more debatable issues.
I am honestly mystified why politicians like Mark-Viverito would see public urination as something for decriminalization with such obvious negative implications for the city. As many on this blog know, I have been a long advocate for decriminalization of many offenses and a critic of the over-criminalization of America. However, these two offenses seem legitimately criminal. Turnstile jumping is a form of theft that, in the aggregate, costs the city greatly. It also involves people leaping over turnstiles in crowded lines or spaces. Public urination is particularly costs for a city that needs to maintain a tourism base and creates unhealthy walking areas for citizens.
The New York Post was its usual subtle self on its view of the change:
What do you think?
Source: New York Post
I’ve been to every major US city and SF has the most aggressive homeless. They are coddled by limo liberals who never have to deal w/ them.
I lived in San Bruno, San Mateo for a number of years in the late 80s and 90s and went into SF on a frequent basis and never had a problem with homeless folks there. I visited there as a tourist back in the late 70s and had a great time. Of course I used to ride NYC subways late at night, and never had a problem either I figured out why though. I am fairly large at 6’5″ , 240# and have always had my haircut short. It finally dawned on me that I probably looked like a cop.
This reminds me of a debacle typical of a Seattle City Council white elephant project. Faced with the human waste problem in the downtown area, the city council resorted to purchasing five self-cleaning toilets, costing a million dollars each.
The toilets became convenient locations for shooting up drugs and housing street prostitution. The project failed and the city sold off the toilets online, netting an average of $2,080 for each.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2008-08-15-seattle-toilets_N.htm
Let me add that my attitude towards Liberal politics has been colored by bitterness over the last few years. I’ve seen too many people, including myself, burned by Liberal policies, while the politicians just walk away whistling.
Ever notice how there are rarely any follow up stories to discuss the outcomes of various policies or measures on the ballot? Never a plan to revisit results in a couple of years and adjust accordingly? Any effort to educate the voters for next time around so they don’t just vote with what makes them feel good at the time?
My Liberal relatives were absolutely sure there must be some mistake for Obamacare to have gone so badly for me. They were convinced it was my insurance agents’ (two different ones) fault or some technical glitch. I had to email them a link to Covered CA. And then . . . silence. What was there to say? They still have great faith that everything will end well with Obamacare, but they cannot say how or why they think this. It’s just faith in the rightness of their cause. For some reason, they believe that politicians on their side are good, loving, unassailable people, and politicians on the other side burn an acre of rainforest every morning with their cup of non organic coffee. That’s why there’s an unspoken rule not to talk politics at get togethers.
Never trust a politician. That’s why we need an antagonistic, suspicious media.
randy has proven problems w/ truth. He is a truthiness guy. Anyone who was in NYC during the 70’s/80’s saw squalor, crime and depravity. just ignore his anecdotal truthiness. He usually goes away in short order.
Nick – I think randyjet’s problem is that he never got out of the damn airport.
More on public urination and the defense of necessity among the homeless:
http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/sex-crimes/public-urination-law-penalty.htm
Again, this is why we should get the homeless off the streets and into mental health facilities, shelters, or some other housing rather than make it easier to live on the street.
There is no “us and them.” What affects one group affects us all.
When people are weighing whether to change the law on public urination, they need to apply the “in my own backyard” principle.
Would they support decriminalizing public urination if it occurred on their own doorstop? The train station? The walk to your kids’ schools? Unless they support this activity occurring outside their own homes, they should not impose this burden on others.
Oh, and we weren’t “slumming” when we had this happen with the homeless. This was in a business district in CA.
randyjet:
“Karen, I have been to NYC FAR more times than you over many years, and I have not seen the things YOU claim to have seen. I guess that I don’t do enough slumming, though I used to frequent the old Times Square with all the titty bars and the like and never had to step over homeless folks on the sidewalk or avoid all the turds on the sidewalk. So I have to say your cause and effect is all in your head, NOT from personal observation or any FACTS!”
Wasn’t I specific in listing CA as the backdrop for the Liberal policies that caused a surge in homelessness as well as in public urination, AB5?
I’m not sure why it’s relevant who has more frequent flier miles. I’m sure that you, as a pilot, have travelled more than I. I’ve lived in several states, travelled to most others, lived in a foreign country, and travelled to many other countries. Am I allowed to have an opinion? I would like to go to Alaska one day. That’s one I’ve missed.
Karen, GO to Alaska in the summer. I visited some friends who lived there, and then I understood why they moved there. It is gorgeous.
I do not believe that enabling the mentally ill and drug addicts to live on the streets is either wise or compassionate. The streets are a dangerous place to live, and we’ve discussed the safety and public health concerns that the people in the deep throes of addiction cause.
CA has now made it a right to live on the street, a foolish move. What would be wiser than chasing symptoms is to attack the cause of the homeless problem: Bad economy, drug addiction, mental illness, and also the sub population of vets on the street. Each cause requires a different approach.
CA Assembly Bill 5 Homeless Bill of Rights:
http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/editorials/article/Tom-Ammiano-s-homeless-bill-is-bad-idea-4095005.php
Then we saw an increase in the homeless population.
People have wondered if there must have been some mistake when I describe what went on in front of my husband’s business, and how the police were powerless to do anything about it. Because of policies like AB5, the homeless congregated around businesses and they were not moved on for peeing and pooping on the public street.
Cause. Effect.
Remember how I sharply criticized the mandatory 26 forms of birth control with no copay? Now that every man in the nation knows that every woman has birth control for “free” (if you don’t actually add the higher increase in premium that was actually far greater than a birth control copay), use of safe sex practices have decreased. In the least surprising announcement this year, CA has seen a marked surge in syphilis cases.
Cause. Effect.
I do not hate Liberals. Several beloved members of my family are Liberals. Liberal voters just want to take care of people. For Liberal politicians it’s just a schtick to get votes. Convince the masses that everyone else hates them, they are helpless victims, and vote for me and we’ll get you lots of stuff. They don’t really give a pinch of cool poo (to partially quote Isaac, I think) about anyone. They just want the votes so they can get into office and become rich politicians speaking out against rich businessmen. Politics is a dirty business.
Karen, Last time I checked AB 5 did not become law. So you are wrong. In fact, as the Seattle article pointed out it was the boondoggle of the $5 million toilets that did not work out, not the public restrooms. More public restrooms more cops, = solution. Cheaper than jail too and tickets will provide revenue, not costs.
randyjet,
Ebbets Field you say; you met Jonathan Turley and you have photos to prove all of this. Well that certainly presents some compelling evidence that YOU exist but it does nothing to change the fact that yesterday you argued your way into proving these policy changes will result in arrests and jail time anyway. The only difference is in your world, the streets will be far more undesirable and the subway will be far more costly.
Well done sir!
Not quite sure what is hysterical. You appear incapable of drawing the most reasonable of conclusions, insisting that you know the background and travelling frequency of others. How odd and queer. That’s not being hysterical.
randyjet
Perhaps years of being exposed to cabin pressure has resulted in your inability to draw reasonable conclusions or your insistence that you somehow know the travelling frequency of Karen S.
randyjet wants more cops on the street? Great, I’m all for that. The problem is that jumping turnstiles and public urination will go, unabated, because the police have been so de-balled and rendered useless in stopping this insanity. Cries of racism and excessive force are rampant. A man, who was told to stop selling loose cigarettes, fought the police as they attempted to arrest him and ended up dead. His family just settled with NYC for 5.9 million. Sure. Convince me that offenders will respect the police and the rules of the community. How about you giving some facts?
randyjet @11:48 am
KAREN, I HAVE BEEN TO NYC FAR MORE TIMES THAN YOU OVER MANY YEARS. . .
Where are your facts, randyjet? Do you personally know Karen S? Do you know anything about her life or her frequency of travel to places like NYC? For someone so unhinged that no one is quoting facts, as you like to put it, I’d say that you are woefully deficient in them yourself, assuming facts not in evidence. Hysterical.
Karen lives in CA, and I grew up in CT and was a Brooklyn dodger fan and went to many of their games at Ebbetts Field. Then I travelled to NYC on most every weekend. My family lives in the area. As an airline captain for many years, I flew into and out of NYC from all of their ariports on a weekly and sometimes daily basis. Now I live in Texas, and was forcibly retired as an airline captain, so I don’t get there as frequently. In fact, I was the captain of one of the first flights back into LGA after 9/11.
bam, If you had been here very long you would know my background, so it is YOU who is ignorant Yes you are hysterical indeed. In fact, I learned about this site from having been a client of Prof. Turley in our lawsuit against the FAA, ALPA and I had the pleasure of meeting him in person. As a pilot i have met some of the persons on this site as well when I am in their area, complete with pictures of me and them and my airplane
The difference, not there difference.
The topic is jailing those who jump turnstiles, and piss on the streets or in public. Your observations would only be valid if you said how many people you SAW doing those things compared with now. IF you put enough cops on the streets, that is also a solution since most violators don’t conduct themselves that way with a cop nearby or look for a cop to piss on. Try using some logic and think.
randyjet
While I do not live in NYC, I frequently travel there, on a regular basis, and have done so for decades. Perhaps you were so busy visiting the titty bars, as you call them, in Times Square, during the pre-Giuliani days, that you failed to notice the bums sleeping in doorways, including the accompanying decay and crime which once defined that particular area. Perhaps you were too distracted, for obvious reasons. I can personally attest to the major impact that has resulted from Giuliani’s efforts, having witnessed the before and the after. Yes, indeed, I have witnessed it for myself, and I can personally attest to the major impact resulting from Giuliani’s policies and efforts. There is no comparison to what once was and what now is in that area of town. Contrary to your assertion, that Karen S or others have no basis for their opinions and beliefs, the proof is obvious to those not distracted by the pursuit of titty bars. Try descending into a NYC subway, on a hot summer day, where the blast of urine-smelling air, which one encounters upon entering underground, almost knocks one off his feet. It’s still bad, but it was worse pre-Giuliani. Pre-Guiliani, one could barely walk through the Port Authority without stepping over and around multiple bodies. It was a terrifying place. Today, while still not completely safe, there difference is undeniable. To say any of this is not based upon fact is a fantasy.
Bam Bam,
I agree with you and it’s astounding how much “evidence” is required to change the minds of people who are unaccustomed to using their power of reason. It would seem the defenders of this policy are unable to grasp the simple concept that human nature tends to follow the path of least resistance. Thoreau said; “The path of least resistance leads to crooked rivers and crooked men.”
If the city removes the obstacles to uncivil behavior then many will see this is an opportunity towards that behavior. It would seem that the only way to persuade these folks of this is for them to experience the negative consequences first hand. And then the “told you so” crowd will once again have to step in and clean up the mess those ‘less than critical-thinkers’ created.
Misrepresentation of facts, either done on purpose or done out of small world view, laziness, or naivety.
randyjet:
I don’t know how to make this any more clear: Liberal policies relaxed the policy against the homeless. Previously, police would arrest those who peed in public and would not let the homeless sleep on the streets. Once they enacted a more “compassionate” approach to the homeless, it encouraged more of them, bolder behavior, and there were literally poop, pee, needles, condoms, etc all over the street.
Cause. Effect.
Karen, I have been to NYC FAR more times than you over many years, and I have not seen the things YOU claim to have seen. I guess that I don’t do enough slumming, though I used to frequent the old Times Square with all the titty bars and the like and never had to step over homeless folks on the sidewalk or avoid all the turds on the sidewalk. So I have to say your cause and effect is all in your head, NOT from personal observation or any FACTS!