Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito (left) is moving forward with a controversial plan to decriminalize such offenses as urinating in public — part of an effort to rollback on criminal offenses used by police to stop and detain suspects under the “broken windows” approach of Police Commissioner Bill Bratton. Critics have charged that the murder rate and other crimes are already up under Mayor Bill de Blasio due to the tensions with police and new policies against stop and frisk maneuvers.
Mark-Viverito appears to believe that criminalizing urination is only a pretext for police stops or a minor offense for the city. Most citizens are likely to disagree. First, there are the health issues of human waste in the street. Second, there are the economic issues of a major tourism location that will now treat urination as a minor matter subject to a summons, which is unlikely to be honored. Finally, given the large number of homeless people and drinkers in New York, the decriminalization of this offense could trigger a urine tsunami as Mark-Viverito removes the threat of arrest.
Mark-Viverito also wants to decriminalize public consumption of alcohol and jumping subway turnstiles. Those are likely to also result in behavorial changes that are inimical for the city. The subway jumping is particularly troubling for a city struggling with its budget issues. If people are seen as walking away when caught, it is likely to encourage greater numbers of jumpers with both budgetary and safety implications for the system. Yet, there is an argument to make on this crime and, in my view, it is a closer question than the public urination decriminalization effort of Mark-Viverito.
The other decriminalized offenses of riding a bike on a sidewalk, failure to obey a park sign, or being in a park after dark are more debatable issues.
I am honestly mystified why politicians like Mark-Viverito would see public urination as something for decriminalization with such obvious negative implications for the city. As many on this blog know, I have been a long advocate for decriminalization of many offenses and a critic of the over-criminalization of America. However, these two offenses seem legitimately criminal. Turnstile jumping is a form of theft that, in the aggregate, costs the city greatly. It also involves people leaping over turnstiles in crowded lines or spaces. Public urination is particularly costs for a city that needs to maintain a tourism base and creates unhealthy walking areas for citizens.
The New York Post was its usual subtle self on its view of the change:
What do you think?
Source: New York Post
“Doesn’t Olly advocate for natural rights? Is there anything in this world that is more of a natural right than defecation?”
Rich Paul,
Good point, if you were 7 years old.
Oops, should be Tyger@6:58.
Tyler, you seem to be quite concerned about the increase in the world’s population, yet we hear concern from American conservatives regarding the decreasing birth rate in the west. Ironic.
It has been my experience that the Broken Windows Theory is valid. Adhering to this measure over several years time will more likely result in lower criminality and decrease in serious offenses.
Turnstile jumping is clearly theft of services and thus should be both criminal and subject to arrest. The public urination is a trickier nut to crack, however. I agree it should be a crime, but it should be more of a “disturbing the peace” or “disorderly conduct” type of crime. The problem is when the officers or prosecutors try to turn every public urination incident into a sex offense. We would die if we didn’t urinate, and while I understand that a public street is not the place for that, a necessary biological act in and of itself should not be an enhanced offense. There is at least one St Louis city cop who likes to hang out in the parking lot of diners and places that drunks congregate to put some food on their liquor and bust every person who pisses behind the dumpster with a sex crime. He actively brags about how he tries to get everyone on the sex offender registry simply because he can. He actively enjoys destroying lives for funsies and this is the result of all of these “sex offender” enhancements to every aspect of daily life. Flashing a playground at 4 in the afternoon should be a sex offense, however, taking a piss next to the slide when you’re hammered at 4 in the morning should only be a “disorderly conduct” type of offense short of any other factors.
You’d think if we can take pictures of Pluto, we’d be able design and install public toilets.
Doesn’t Olly advocate for natural rights? Is there anything in this world that is more of a natural right than defecation? Do you think we, the most exceptional nation on earth, could manage to provide a public space for a human to safely defecate?
Alternately, I suppose we could insist that they all defecate at the edges of the Hudson River.
Tyger, It is more fun and easier to fiddle rather than take a serious look at problems. That is the signature of right wing nuts. It takes FACTS and thinking to do otherwise, both traits which are absent on the right. Have an opinon based on prejudice and and before one can know what the situation is. Reminds me of that airplane crash in Taiwan in which the captian lost an engine, and rather than taking a second to make sure had the correct engine, simply pulled the wrong one to shut off.
randyjet – studies have shown that progressives are drawn by the emotion of the event, not the logic. They could care less about facts. Conservatives are more driven by logic and facts.
I would say that your pilot was emotionally driven to shut off the wrong engine. A conservative would take the time to figure out which engine has shut down and what his plan of action was going to be.
Olly
You make some great points; unfortunately, those who have never owned a business and have never been personally impacted by the various horror stories, where the homeless have chased away customers and damaged communities by creating an unsafe and undesirable atmosphere, simply don’t get it. This isn’t about hating the homeless or wishing to harm and punish them. It’s not about denying them the resources to get off the streets and rid themselves of drugs and alcohol. It’s about maintaining a standard of living and a quality of life for those who do play by the rules, work hard and wish to live out their lives in neighborhoods that have not been turned into open-air latrines or drug dens, scattered with used condoms. and used syringes. I’m willing to bet that a little personal exposure, on a daily basis, where their livelihoods and neighborhoods were directly and severely impacted, may make them sing a different tune.
Annie: “Mathew 25”
Irrelevant, at best, if not unintelligible or meaningless today. I’ve personally seen an increase in the human population on Earth of more than two billion people in just the last 60 years or so. Most of the current seven billion plus rant about how their particular book or their religious beliefs are the answer to how Mankind should live. Yet, none of their books and religions and politics and philosophies have eliminated the suffering, starvation, sickness, greed, corruption, poverty, war, death, or any of the other evils humans have inflicted upon others of their species in the last 2000 years and much more. It doesn’t take an Einstein at math or ecology to calculate what is going to happen to Humanity very soon. And still, people sit around and debate what the penalty should be for pissing on the street. Rome burns while everyone fiddles.
I assume that we can agree that a certain number of homeless people are mentally ill. I also assume that all of the mentally ill homeless defecate. Is Olly recommending that we criminalize defecation by mentally ill homeless people?
Dickensian.
Rich, The solution to the problem for olly and others is to lock them up as often as possible. Their preferred solution will be along the lines Tyger proposed in jest. A tough mayor would make turnstile jumping and pissing in the street capital offenses so we can get rid of the undesireables under the color of law and civilization. THAT will sure clean up the streets and restore law and order in a big hurry. Kill the problems and let the cops continue their crusade to put undesireables in prison or the grave.
And there you have it. You’ve changed nothing as the end result is the same; go to jail. But in your utopia, law-abiding citizens have to endure the increased unsanitary conditions and the increase in turnstile fees. Progressivism personified; you effectively take a dump on the everyone and you solve nothing. Well done indeed!
Oh it’s perfectly excusable in a legal blog where even the lawyers urinate on the rule of law. You idiots that swore an oath to support and defend our constitution do everything but. An infraction, right. Well that is so much better. I see you took a dump on the sidewalk, here’s a ticket for you to wipe your ass. Oh, and we are going to give you a nasty fine and a horrible record that will mean absolutely nothing to you, our fine, upstanding citizen. What’s next, find out they didn’t pay the nasty fine? Then what Sherlock? Give them another nasty fine and add to their record that they could care less about? Then what? How many nasty fines and how long does this record need to be before they FINALLY do arrest them? In the meantime your streets taken on that wonderful outhouse aroma and turnstile fees go up for those “actual” citizens that follow the rules.
Ever try not paying a speeding ticket? Try it and get back to me after you get out of jail. That is the solution. A co worker in Houston tried that ONCE as the cops dragged him out of work and off to jail. The company was not pleased about that one.
“Even those with little real value to their society”…
Matthew 25:
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Yes, Annie, my comment was meant to humorously compare how humans treat animals in contrast to how they sanctimoniously consider the lives of people, even those with little real value to their society, to be so important. Someday, as humans continue to overpopulate the earth and destroy and pollute the environment with their filthy excrement and garbage, what you consider now to be sick humor at best, will be thought of as serious alternatives meant to improve the well-being and prospects of survival for the majority.
Tyger, For the relatively sane and decent folks among us, your post was obvious satire along the lines of Swift. Unfortunately most of the others would seriously consider such a course.
randyjet,
You’ve offered no facts of your own; questions don’t count as facts but that has not stopped you from offering an opinion of those that have anecdotal evidence to support their own opinion. Reading through this thread I find plenty of logical assumptions regarding the net effect of decriminalizing certain behaviors. If NYC decides anyone urinating in public will no longer be violating the law then it is logical to conclude there will be more of it. If they decide anyone jumping the turnstiles will no longer be violating the law then it’s logical to conclude there will be more of it.
What is this city councilwoman’s goal? I’m at a loss to understand what she hopes to accomplish other than to reduce petty crime statistics by eliminating the classification of certain behaviors as a crime. Perhaps next on her agenda is to reclassify muggings as a form of property sharing or murder as an unexpected life cap adjustment.
Olly, for somebody on a legal blog to not understand the difference between an infraction and a crime is inexcuseable. The councilwoman is NOT advocating making pissing on the streets legal, but to eliminate it as a CRIME.There are lots of things that are not legal, but are not crimes, such as speeding. You STILL have violated the law, but you don’t go to jail for it. Instead, you get a nasty fine and a record. I guess that since speeding is not a crime, we will have more of it too then. Make sense to you? Then we have the question as to how effective making pissing in the street a crime has been. I suppose we could stop speeding if the cops hauled the speeder to prison for a week or so. Think that is a good use of resources? Think that is needed? Speeding KILLS people. Pissing in unapproved places and jumping turnstiles to my knowledge has not killed or injured a single person.
randyjet – so urinating in public in no longer illegal, so is indecent exposure no longer illegal?
I sure hope the comment @9:28 PM is supposed to be satire. That’s some pretty sick humor.
Why not set up Homeless Human Shelters that work like Homeless Animal Shelters? House them in cages for a few days, maybe a couple of weeks, try to find someone who will adopt them or give them a home, and then painlessly euthanize the ones that can’t be socialized and integrated back into society, just like is done with dogs and cats. A city-supported agency of “homeless catchers” could roam the streets and bring back all the derelicts they found and confine them. Those who could be cleaned up and accommodated in a home somewhere would be given shots and released to a responsible adoptee. Babies and children would be the most likely to find homes, just like kittens and puppies. Those who were deemed not able to be rehabilitated would be sent to the gas ovens. Their ashes could then be sold to fertilizer companies.
We’ve already seen what happens when Liberals allow the homeless to live on the streets. We see it all the time in CA. But, hey, go ahead and repeat the experiment in NY and see if you get a different result.
Karen, you are avoiding the subject and changing what the subject is. I guess you think that the homeless should be criminalized and imprisoned according to your last post. So the decriminalizing of certain acts hurts cleaning up the streets of undesireables. I call that hate. Unless you think prisons are fun places to be.
” So the decriminalizing of certain acts hurts cleaning up the streets of undesireables. I call that hate. Unless you think prisons are fun places to be.”
One problem is that what some people think makes it harder to live on the street, such as criminalization, makes it much harder to leave the street.
Homeless can run up a series of arrests and convictions in a few months or years. Even a single conviction can make it hard to get a job, several can make it essentially impossible. Convictions and questionable job history make it much more difficult, or impossible, to find housing let along decent housing.
Some who complain the loudest about the homeless are advocating for policies that assure it continues.
Further some of these people cannot even engage in reasoned discussion about a serious problem. My comment to the effect that the threat of incarceration is not likely to prevent someone from answering natures call was recast into the absurd claim that I don’t think homelessness is a serious problem.
Some here would rather curse the darkness and the homeless rather than strike a match.
randyjet:
“I see that all have opinios unfetterred by FACTS.” Considering that I’ve experienced this problem personally, my opinion is based on facts. I don’t hate the homeless; I hate the urine, poop, used commons, and used needles left around areas where they congregate. Just like any person would.
Seriously, would you be OK if you went to use the spigot at your business, where you pay through the nose in rent and taxes, and it was covered in feces? Here in So Cal it’s a tragically common problem.
As I’ve said before, I have no idea what would work to make them stop peeing and pooping in public other than forcibly moving them on. Like I said, not a single one of the homeless around my husband’s work agreed to the free shelter offered to them, or the free rehab. Food, shelter, and rehab are all available to them but they literally will not take it. It’s a quandary.
As I’ve said before, if you enable the homeless to live on the street, you will attract more of it. And then you’ll get all the human waste and paraphernalia that accompanies drug addiction. We need to urge the homeless off the street and into shelters equipped to handle them.
When I was in college, a friend did a documentary for film school on the homeless. What he discovered was that if they weren’t mentally ill when they became homeless, most became so through drug use. You can easily verify the statistics on drug abuse among the homeless. These are people who have lost the ability to take care of themselves, let alone clean up after themselves. They are so sad.
Karen The subject at hand is whether or not making pissing on the sidewalk a crime or not will result in more or less such activity. Your personal experience is irrelevant since you gave no indication of the law in your neighborhood. Try thinking and using some FACTS I have not seen any facts or figures on this subject, just prejudice and hatred expressed for liberals or other hobgoblins of the right wing nuts. I offered a number of questions that need to be answered BEFORE you take a position on this. Then another posted how the books have been cooked by the NYPD for years., thus making crime stats more political than accurate. I would hope that before you take a position that you get the FACTS. For example, if the law in your area made such things a crime, did that stop the activity? Or perhaps having a cop standing around the neighboood was an effective deterent? If so then the law is not a factor but police presence instead.