There is an interesting controversy brewing over the continued removal of water by Nestle from California’s water supply during the record drought in that state. Nestle continued to remove millions of gallons of water from the San Bernardino National Forest to sell as part of its Arrowhead bottled water brand. While the rest of the state is facing stringent water reductions, Nestles has been criticized for removing 27 million gallons of water from 12 springs in Strawberry Canyon under a permit that expired in 1988. The expired permit’s fee for the water, according to critics? $524.
The expired permit only adds to the controversy over not just the removal of water by the waste associated with bottled water. The company head Tim Brown however said that this is like complaining about the weather: “If I stop bottling water tomorrow, people would buy another brand of bottled water. It’s driven by consumer demand, it’s driven by an on-the-go society that needs to hydrate.”
Starbucks recently stopped bottling water in the state. However, there are a 110 bottlers in the state. Critics charge that it amounts to theft will companies point out that it remains a small percentage of water use in the state.
Nestle has launched a counteroffensive to answer questions and critics. The company says that it has tried to renew its permit with the federal government and has been told it can continue to draw water. It notes that its product is still a lot better than those “sugary drinks.” It adds:
How much water do you withdraw in California?
Less than 0.008% of the total. Nearly 50 billion cubic metres (13 trillion gallons) of water is used in California each year. Nestlé uses less than 4 million cubic metres (1 billion gallons) in all its operations. We operate five bottled water plants (out of 108 in the state) and four food plants. Our bottled water plants use around 2.66 million cubic metres (705 million gallons) of water a year.
Two questions remain (1) why a company should make billions on public water without greater revenue sharing for the public and (2) whether such draws should continue during drought periods. It is also clear that the permitting system run by the US Forest Service (USFS) is in shambles. Either the USFS should cut off these draws or permit them under a workable and mutually beneficial system. It is bizarre to leave companies for decades operating off of expired permits.
What do you think?
Much more to this story. Does Nestle have water rights? Is Nestle really withdrawing and bottling spring water from this Arrowhead mountain site? Nearby springs are dry given the drought status. Past government audits indicated that The horizontal wells are withdrawing groundwater. Nestle reportedly withdrawing 26 million gallons of water per year from one canyon which has listed endangered and threatened species
.Everyone must remember that municipal water supplies have stricter regulations and oversight than the bottled water industry.
Former USDA Seceretary currently serves on the board of directors for Nestle. The formal NEPA process should commence in several weeks.
Knowing full well that you will find sixteen ways to dismiss this, because it’s your dumb one-trick-pony move on this board, I will give you this:
Copy this name:
William Edward Hickman
Go to google.com
Paste it in.
Read the results.
Come back to this page.
Blame me for something something something.
Feel smug and self-satisfied.
Rinse
Repeat
phillyT – find the site that best fits your needs and cite. Don’t play cutsie tricks. I was a teacher for too long to play your silly reindeer game.
Paul. I answered you some time ago. The references are quite easy to find. Go look it up. Don’t be so lazy.
phillyT – you make the statement. You back it up. Dancing around trying to have me look it up does not make you look good.
PhillyT:
I don’t think anyone believes they built a company without customers to buy products, or without the infrastructure built with their tax dollars. That’s how capitalism works.
That is why I said this is a manufactured crisis.
Your comments sounded very similar to Elizabeth Warren, which was what I indicated above. This is what you said, “So it’s not that “you didn’t build that” but that you didn’t build that all by yourself.”
But no one thinks you can have a company with no one to buy your products . . . so . . . the manufactured crisis. And I actually pointed out the problems with countries that do not value individual rights. So it’s much ado about nothing.
Just to clarify. For the fourth time. I NEVER once said “you didn’t build that” in reference to anything or anyone. So I would like to politely request that you all stop saying I did, unless you are just trying to be a jackass.
I said no one builds anything alone. If you think you can build a business all by yourself without the infrastructure, social and political support of the US, then please go start your business or franchise in Eritrea, Uzbekistan, Libya, or South Sudan and report back on how well that goes for you.
Stop trying to misinterpret what I’ve said. I love entrepreneurs. I spent two years in business school coaching them on how to write business plans. I taught a two-day seminar on business plan writing at a national conference for several years running. And I have helped several small enterprises put together their B-plans to get loans, file their LLC applications, and figure out the financial viability of their businesses.
Enough already.
phillyT – still waiting for that cite on it being well-known that John Gantt was based a child killer. Stillllllll waaaaiiiiiitttttiiiinnnngggg.
Modern capitalism operates within rules that protect individual rights. No capitalist wants to return to the days when workers breathed asbestos.
It is when individual rights are not protected, that industry can run amok. For example, China dabbles in capitalism, but it operates it under a Communist regime in which individuals have neither rights nor recourse. The predictable outcome of government run industry with no respect for the population is that China is one of the top pollutors in the globe. Socialist Russia, again with no respect for individual rights, is also one of the worst polluters.
Capitalism has raised more people out of poverty than any other social paradigm in the globe.
PhillyT: It sounds to me like you have more of a problem with Big Business that pays for politicians than with capitalism, corporations, or business owners in general.
Again, the problem would be solved by campaign finance and lobbying reform. Remove the pay-to-play.
Nick – great story about your grandfather.
Philly T: Again, I think this is a contrived issue, pretending that business owners don’t appreciate that without customers they would have no business. Or that without the infrastructure built with their taxes, they couldn’t drive on roads or bridges. That’s basic supply and demand, and the fundamental job of government.
You are creating an issue out of thin air.
philly, That was a much more reasonable comment. Allow me to give you an insight into my perspective. My grandfather was an immigrant from Bari, Italy. He came here w/o any family or money as a teenager. He worked in a factory, which he hated. He heard his comrades @ work complain of the cafeteria food. So, he started bringing sandwiches to sell. He saw that many of the employees were Italian and Polish, so he made sandwiches to appeal to them. He got enough money saved[no one saved like immigrants back in the early 1900’s] and quit the job, building a business out of a sandwich cart. He was @ the factory for lunch break on all 3 shifts, 6/7 days a week, depending on how busy the factory was. From money saved, Stefano opened a restaurant that was a family business for 60 years. So yes, when you say “You didn’t build that” I take offense. And yes, it is emotional.
Nick and Karen. You either didn’t bother to read what I wrote very carefully or you are both so full of your own emotions that you just have to interpret what I’ve said in the worst possible light.
So let me reiterate. I resent the faux libertarians who take advantage of all this country has to offer and then imagine that they built whatever they have all by themselves. It’s not that I don’t appreciate the efforts and risk taken. I understand them full well. By the way, I ran a home construction and remodeling business. Had 10-15 employees, insurance, workers comp, accountants, payroll. the whole 9 yards.
My personal opinion is that capitalism is very much like football. It only works when you have VERY good referees who enforce the rules. If you can imagine what would happen to the game of football if they did away with the rules, that is what has happened to capitalism, especially under Reagan and W. Bush. Savings and Loan crisis, stock market crash, financial crisis of 2008, rampant pollution, toxic waste to clean up, global warming. This is our legacy of the unregulated market.
As for small entrepreneurs and other businesses, I applaud them and thank them for their contributions.
So take a breath and calm down. I’m done here.
phillyT by 20 lengths.
phillyT for president in 2016.
PhillyT:
“So it’s not that “you didn’t build that” but that you didn’t build that all by yourself. You used the infrastructure we all paid for. Your employees were educated by a system we all paid for.”
OK, Elizabeth Warren. The poor use the roads, bridges, and free education all of the rest of us taxpayers paid for. I don’t begrudge them using the infrastructure we helped build one little bit. I do resent the “you didn’t build it” crowd indicating that it is somehow unfair for us business owners to use that same infrastructure that we paid for.
Politicians use roads, bridges, and free education, too. So do monks, nuns, homeless people, Moonies, tourists, and CEOs.
This is a false crisis, people in the US using the infrastructure that we paid for with our taxes, or that taxpayers supported us by paying for when we couldn’t. It’s like donating the funds to build a library and then someone tries to give you a guilt trip if you want to check out a book.
“Karen S. I ran my own business for more than 25 years. While it’s true that the owner creates the business and takes the risk, it is the clients/customers who buy or don’t buy the product. No customers, no business. Lots of customers, more employees, new equipment, new facilities and so on. No smart business owner would hire on new employees or buy equipment without some actual or well-predicted demand.”
Right. Unless you’re the government, no one buys your products or services unless they want to. If you are a savvy, talented business owner, you can meet that need. If not, you go out of business. That’s just supply and demand.
“The grandest failing of many, with capitalism is that it allows owners to capitalize their profits and socialize their losses. We, the public are paying to clean up after thousands of companies who made millions for the owners and then declared bankruptcy, sold out to another buyer or simply closed their doors. Chemical spills, mine waste, robbed pension funds…we pay for that and never go after the owners or shareholders to make it right. A major flaw that should be corrected.”
Why do you throw capitalism or business owners under the bus for the bad deeds of the Dirty Dozen, like Monsanto (spit). I’ve remarked before that a company is only as good or evil as the person (people) who run it. If we remove special interest lobbying, that would take care of the law-does-not-apply-to-cronies-donors-politiicans-or-high-up-government-employees problem.
Why does Germany pay its unions such high wages? Because there are people around the world who can and will pay a premium for a German-engineered car (or vegetable peeler, etc). In non-capitalist countries, the general population doesn’t have that kind of cash. They eat stale government bread while the government employees eat caviar. Think North Korea. Venezuela. Russia. I have a good friend from Maldova who said that capitalism was illegal. In order to buy his family more food and warmer clothes, her father had a black market business. The family lived in fear that someone would find out and inform on them. We don’t want to see those days, here.
People can be in equally poor circumstances, or equal opportunities. The two are not the same.
And your opinions are quite unusual for a business owner, unless the business was something like a CPA. Would you share what business you were in to help me understand how in the world a business owner could subscribe to the “you didn’t build that all by yourself” philosophy? (Aside from the supply and demand cornerstone of capitalism.)
I have a very difficult time believing philly owned a business. He/she talks like a govt. employee, if employed @ all, not a small business owner. He/she refers to business owners as “you” and uses “we” when referring to the people who pay pay for schools, roads, etc. The “You didn’t build that” is socialist and cult leader words, not someone who ever owned a business. But, anonymity allows people to say all sorts of stuff. When I talk about my background, I use my real name and what I say can be checked out. I KNOW some folks here have. I am a professional seeker of truth, and I have a BS detector people pay good money for when they need to know the truth.
A coffee plantation can be a scary place, in fact a notorious place. The psychology of fear is all pervasive on many coffee and cocoa plantations, especially in west africa…many a revolution was hatched over a cup of coffee…revolutions were financed with heroin flavored bananas and juiced java, if you get my drift?
Karen S. I ran my own business for more than 25 years. While it’s true that the owner creates the business and takes the risk, it is the clients/customers who buy or don’t buy the product. No customers, no business. Lots of customers, more employees, new equipment, new facilities and so on. No smart business owner would hire on new employees or buy equipment without some actual or well-predicted demand.
I appreciate the risks that business owners take, but not one of them got there on their own. So it’s not that “you didn’t build that” but that you didn’t build that all by yourself. You used the infrastructure we all paid for. Your employees were educated by a system we all paid for. You operate in a land of law, with fire and police protection, and a system of courts which allow you judicial remedies and enforcement of contracts and so on. We ALL pay for all that and so much more. Imagine if/when we have Medicare for all how entrepreneurs who don’t have to fear going broke from medical emergencies (still the number 1 reason for bankruptcy), will start millions of new businesses and hire on new employees. And we should all be happy to buy in and start catching up with the rest of the developed world.
The grandest failing of many, with capitalism is that it allows owners to capitalize their profits and socialize their losses. We, the public are paying to clean up after thousands of companies who made millions for the owners and then declared bankruptcy, sold out to another buyer or simply closed their doors. Chemical spills, mine waste, robbed pension funds…we pay for that and never go after the owners or shareholders to make it right. A major flaw that should be corrected.
phillyT – did you run a franchise or your own business. Makes a big difference. If you build the brand people come. If the brand sucks, people stay away. So, you make the business.
Karen, In the 70’s, when states were getting into the lottery biz, they sold it by lying to the taxpayers w/ the “the money goes to education”, BS. I heard that in CT. when I lived there, PA, when I lived there, as well as in other states I resided. LIES!
Nick – politicians already raided the CA Lottery, voted for to fund education. Now parents have to provide all classroom supplies, down to the chalk and dry erase markers, because all public schools are underfunded.
So I’m betting that CA will win the race to bankruptcy. Heck, we’re partway there, already, with several major cities folding.
phillyT:
Well, I disagree with you about corporations. They are only as good or evil as the people who run them. My husband owns a small incorporated business, my family members own corporations. I have friends who own corporations, from small businesses, to bigger ones, to farmers.
I assure you none of us employ sweat shops or child labor, dig up Indian burial grounds, or pollute.
Monsanto, on the other hand, (spit) is evil in its actions, in my humble opinion.
Consumers don’t create jobs. Someone gets an idea with something or some service to sell. It’s true that he or she is a failure unless they accurately predict what consumers want to buy. But a consumer will not lose his house, his livelihood, and go broke if the business fails. My husband spent over 20 years building his business, almost lost his house when he was just starting out, before he got traction. Now he’s had several surgeries to repair the damage done to his body in his line of work.
People who say, “You didn’t build that” typically have not tried to start a business. They might be surprised at what really goes into it. I wish they had “ride-alongs”, like they do for cops, so that the general public can gain some insight into what goes into owning a business. I know I was shocked when I married my husband. I thought he should fire his CPA immediately. There was no way the huge amount of taxes he paid could possibly be correct. But it was. Believe me, he’s paid his dues.
I think we can end undue special interest influence, such as by heavy hitter corporations, by reforming campaign finance and lobbying laws. We need to do away with pay-to-play for everyone, including Monsanto (spit), unions, and foreign interests.
Darren – I remember learning about that in college. The tragedy was that baby formula companies heavily marketed to Third World Countries without safe water supplies. It was advertised as scientifically superior to breast milk. Feed your babies like the strong Americans do! So many trusting mothers fed their babies formula with contaminated water, and their babies sickened and died. It was a catastrophe. Older kids could handle the microbes in the water, but not babies. Breast milk was the only safe food for them to eat, and it’s been proven that it’s superior to formula. Formula was intended for babies whose mothers could not, or would not, breast feed.
Karen – the only corporation I know is evil is Veridian.
Paul. Been down this road too many times with you already. You are never satisfied with the links or sources other people provide. So no, I’m not going to look it up for you.
You can google “how to use google” and then look it up for yourself.
phillyT – cannot prove it, can you.
Paul, are you saying that you don’t know how to google something? That you don’t have time?
Or would you just rather that I find you a link that you can criticize afterwards and be dismissive about?
phillyT – the person who makes the statement backs it up. That is why we have footnotes.
phillyT, did Hickman look something like this?
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.nmL5oB%2fR%2fMyfkOOvTuDwRA&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300