Longtime Cuban leader Fidel Castro is dead at age 90. While many around the world spoke highly of Castro’s success in greatly reducing illiteracy and proving basic services like health care, I have long been critical of his reign and his enablers in the West. Whatever success he achieved, he did so through a brutal dictatorship that denied freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and other basic civil liberties. For those of us who grew up in the 60s and 70s, he was a defining character of our generation. The menace across the border. When we were being taught to shelter under our desks in any nuclear attack, it was his image with that of the Soviet premier that would be flashed across the screen. It was a time of utter madness and mania — on both sides of the Iron Curtain.
Castro clearly had the leadership skills and courage to be much more after overthrowing a corrupt puppet like President Fulgencio Batista. Instead, he elected to follow the Soviet communist model and reduced his economy to little more than an agrarian state that was frozen in time — as vividly shown by the cars from the 1950s that still drive around the island. He ordered the torture of thousands and the killing of opponents. It is certainly true that the United States has an equally horrific record in supporting Battista and his cronies and repeatedly trying to overthrow Castro or destroy the Cuban economy. However, Castro is quoted as saying that “history will absolve me.” Certainly there are some professors on the left who have always idealized dictators like Castro or Hugo Chavez. From Bernie Sanders to Dr. Jill Stein to 49ers Quarterback Colin Kaepernick there have been expressions of support for Castro’s record on educational and health benefits. However, history can not wipe clean, let alone absolve, a man whose legacy is soaked in the blood and suffering of tens of thousands of political prisoners.
He was an interesting historical figure to be sure. Many do not know that Castro was a lawyer and came from a wealthy family. He was born in 1926 to a servant of a Cuban sugar plantation owner. He father eventually recognized him as his son but only when he was 17 and Castro then took his name. He attended Jesuit schools before joining the University of Havana law school. By then, he was a committed socialist. It was after the failed 1953 attack on a military barracks and the trial that he said in his own defense “history will absolve me.”
I do not question the remarkable life of someone who overthrow a dictator and stood off the world’s most powerful country. That took guts and leadership. However, he then replaced one dictatorship with his own dictatorship. People were tortured in the many of Communism rather than capitalism. Reporters and political dissidents were jailed in the name of the people. At a time when Communism was denying freedom in Eastern Europe and rolling tanks through the streets to prevent democratic elections, Castro embraced the Soviet empire. His government ultimately representing little beyond authoritarian power masked by collective rhetoric — a point driven home by the fact that he was replaced by his own brother like some Communist Aristocracy. Likewise, the claim of a government of the people would be a tad more convincing if the Castro brothers ever let the people choose their government. Instead, they jailed opponents, barred the free press, and stomped out any protests over their rule. Those apologists internationally (who often cite how teams of Cuban doctors would travel the world or literacy advances) did not live under their autocratic rule without democratic freedoms and basic rights. Castro offered doctors and education in a trade for basic civil liberties. Only the greatest moral relativists viewed that as a fair trade.
Nevertheless, world leaders like Justin Trudeau expressed “great sorrow” at the passing of Castro. Journalists like MSNBC Andrea Mitchell insisted Castro “will be revered” for “education and social services and medical care to all of his people.” Really? He will be “revered” because he gave his people services while torturing and jailing those who wanted democracy? Mitchell may want to check out the free medical care that Castro gave people like Armando Valladares, who was initially a supporter of Castro but was arrested when (as a worker at the Office of the Ministry of Communications for the Revolutionary Government) he refused to put a plaque on his desk that read, “I’m with Fidel.” He was arrested and spent 22 years in Castro’s prisons being tortured, starved and left in solitary confinement. He might not be as reverential about those services, but then again Mitchell did not have to live under the dictatorship of the Castros.
One can certainly argue that he had little choice when the CIA was mounting aggressive attacks. However, Castro had long before adopted the ideology of the “people’s revolution.” It was simplistic and violent. It ultimately denied the fundamental human rights that belong to all people. He did so in the name of equality. He succeeded in achieving equality by reducing a society of a level only slightly above agrarian status and became a willing pawn for the Soviet Union. Without the shipments from Soviets to keep his population alive, his government would have collapsed. To this day, the island operates on the lowest level of economic exchanges and production. His unquestioned success on literacy and health care is no substitute for human rights. He placed his name on a long list of dictators who emerged from political and economic chaos. He did not end the brutality but merely justified it as a means for a new cause.
That is what history will remember about Fidel Castro.
Thank you, Mespo.
Paul, community standards is very different from morality. Community standards is primarily cultural, and, yes, geographical…which makes culture. Morality is something else that is not dependent on geography or culture, it is more universal.
Most people around the globe frown upon child sex abuse, for example. However, throughout history, including today, some cultures have legitimized pedophilia under some doctrine or another. The former falls under morality, while the latter falls under community standards. So even here in the US, while most of us would condemn child marriages, it is part of the standards of some communities.
Po – actually what you say is not true. People who live in NYC are less likely to share a morality with the people in Pierre, S, DaK, then they are the people in L.A. College professors, as a large group, donate to the Democratic Party and are hence more like to adhere to situational ethics for their moral judgments.
Po is a poster child for the use of Perception Management. He has, I believe, been very valuable as an example of the Clinton campaigns technique of –I suppose thought control might be close — using the mirror for a description and then changing the name to some new target. Regardless of facts which are rarely bothered with. It worked in reverse though and the result is a micro-event showing how that works. Thus explaining for those who make can make the easy connection to fibbing when it’s not necessary and ignoring the inconsistancies.
I believe that transparency was largely responsible for engaging so many people from varied backgrounds to register , to vote and to vote against the DNC candidate especially with the help of the news media.
For those not familiar with the term it’s one of the latest developments in Psychological Warfare inuse bt he military for one. We’re a long way from the large size STD protection devices stamped Small being air dropped behind enemy lines. That was an actual suggestion in past history.
Perception Management has as great many references using Google.
Keep up the good work if you can’t find a copy of We The Living I’ll make mine available.
Michael, what are you talking about?
Never mind. As I said I’m not talking to you but using you as a metaphor or analogy in order to convert more people to voting for Constitution supporting candidates in the next cycle of elections. So far it’s working perfectly. I’m just managing perceptions of you at this point and more the group you try to represent by repeating their programming. Don’t worry about it.
What group am I trying to represent?
Aren’t you the thick one. You don’t understand never mind? It’s in the same realm as provide some facts. Unobtainable.
What??
Michael, where do you come from? Escaped again?
Never seen the like of you…even here….even after Nick!
Wow!
Fort Bragg, North Carolina. As for the other that’s Paul’s Department. He is the teacher. Thanks for helping with the votes.
My pleasure…must tell though, you are entertaining… 🙂
Well, Paul, what makes up morality? You are confusing it with moral culture, not the same. One is situational, geographical, cultural, while the other is universal.
What one feels about homosexuality is not morality, it is moral culture, determined by exposure and culture.
What one feels about murder is morality. Isn’t changed by culture, though culture may offer the justification for it.
Po – there is no universal morality.
Paul, if you believe murder is wrong, unfairness is wrong, stealing is wrong, cheating is wrong, abuses of any kinds are wrong, animal abuse is wrong..etc…, you subscribe to a universal morality shared by 90%+ of humanity, past, present and more than likely future.
Po – universal means everyone. Not 90%
Paul:
1. Of, relating to, or affecting the entire universe: the universal laws of physics.
2. Including, relating to, or affecting all members of the class or group under consideration; applicable in all cases: universal vaccination; universal suffrage. See Synonyms at general.
3. Done, produced, or shared by all members of the class or group under consideration: a discovery that met with universal acclaim.
4. Adapted or adjustable to many sizes, uses, or devices: a universal remote control.
5. Logic Encompassing all of the members of a class or group. Used of a proposition.
n.
1. Logic
a. A universal proposition.
b. A general or abstract concept or term considered absolute or axiomatic.
2. A general or widely held principle, concept, or notion.
3. A trait or pattern of behavior characteristic of all the members of a
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/universal
Now apply that sudden education to your original statement and specify the connections.
Posting it twice does not make the definition fit the situation. Specify the connection. It’s not a case of saying it three times makes it true. although If I say ‘aren’t you thick’ it’s a case of redundancy.
Michael Aarethun – he was kind enough to prove my point. 🙂
Yes. And mine. THAT is real progress. So the latest is the vote counting apparently the difficulties involved in secession are huge and the water problem discussed earlier. On the counting Pennsylvania already closed the deadline for recounts. Wisconsin did it once with a 300 vote award to linton out of 20,000 some difference. Michigan was a 10,500 or close to it difference. None of the three have found any irregularities. Clinton group is asking North Carolina to not do a count (it’s lower than 5,000 difference. automatically required.
However she would have to get all three of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania and too bad so sad Pennsylvania said, “Too late.”. Some of us are giving a class in the electoral system to folks from other countries and the big state little state balance system. They all liked the part where the small population States could control the Senate with the least population while the big States got a lead with Repredsentatives. Next we’re going in to how the various powers were divided up minus the new Fourth Branch.
Michael Aarethun – there was some thinking that if Stein could get those three states tied up, it would put Trump under 270 which is needed. Then the election would go to the House where each state gets one vote, if I remember correctly. If you think Hillary lost before think how humiliated she would be losing 35-15 or something. Could even be worse.
True. One article I read had Trump minus the three states exactly at 270 and with New Hampshire and a few others left to recount. One’s that would tip the score the other way. As I think back the majority of the States, 80% of the precincts also voteds for Trump. Pennsylvania I recall was list as a 50,000 vote difference.
And one Texas elector has resigned as he wanted to defeat illary but did not want Trump. Another was thinking of voting for Johnson or Klein for the same reason. No real ground swell there. No traction. Meanwhile Congress has put DHS on notice that all appointments would be scrutinized for attempted embedding in other jobs. Ikt seems there ‘s rule in congress that’s a straight and immediate 50 plus one rule to dump last minute items and appointments.,
Better chance for Klintone and the Klingons is hope the Electors all defect and the probability in the case of a contrived tie vote is it goes to a Republican controlled Congress. They may not pick Trump but they sure as hell are not going to pick Klinton.
Last thing of note. Klinton intends to run again. So far just an unsupported rumor from the campaign waiting around for their LEA interviews. But on the recount project it’s like bringing a dull knife to gun fight featuring machine guns.
Po – all of your definitions agree with. Thank you for posting it.
Ah… fascinating …Paul/Michael, show me one instance where universal has meant exclusively comprehensive. Universal suggests the overwhelming majority of the entities but not every single one of the entities.
Even universal healthcare, or agreement, or disagreement does not require every single person to have healthcare, agree or disagree. Based on that interpretation, there is no such thing as universal because there is no obvious situation, a wider range situation where there is 100% agreement or one that covers 100% of the people. Even universal healthcare does not cover 100% of the people, for whatever reason, either out of choice or out of disqualification.
So, universal as used suggests an overwhelming general nature, one that is so comprehensive that the it is the rule and whatever exception there is is, well, dismissible.
I expected you to click on the link and read all the offering but I should have known based on precedent that neither of youz would.
——————
universaladjective
1. So pervasive and all-inclusive as to exist in or affect the whole world:
catholic, cosmic, cosmopolitan, ecumenical, global, pandemic, planetary, worldwide.
2. Ever present in all places:
omnipresent, ubiquitous.
3. Belonging or relating to the whole:
common, general, generic.
noun
A broad and basic rule or truth:
axiom, fundamental, law, principle, theorem.
agree with me. Left off the me.
To put it another way moral values maybe infuenced by books, church, friends, events, a variety of sources but the most important one is you, youself and thou. Deciding moral values is, in the end, a personal choice and responsibility. I use a well known system to measure the correctness of my choices relative to myself. Politics, morals, religion, baseball teams yuck, world cup teams hooray, friends, the weather etc. All my choice. I am the only one responsible.
The system is called objectivism. It deals with reality as you see or expience it. It does not countenance fantasys but it does validate creativity and ideas.
So here it goes. Think any subject. Something you observed could be a rock in a stream
First, always first yiou recognize (or are cognizant of) yourself as a thinking reasoning aware individual capable of any number of decisions. and evaluations.
Second observe the nature of things around you. Animal vegetable mineral from the deepest canyon to the farthest reaches of fhe universe. And activities, actions, statements etc. made by others me especially.
Test and evaluate your observations. Is the ‘thing’ valid. meaning is it useful. If so decide to use it and….hold that thought. But keep testing. New ideas new discoveries constantly change things.
If it is not useful is it likely to be useful – keep testing and evaluationg.
If it snot useful at all or dangerous act appropriately but keep testing.
So I evaluated a shovel found it useful and begin to excavate.I see a tractor but it isn’t useful. Then I see a tractor with a back hoe. ZING! now it’s useful Or I see a candidate for President. No but I keep evaluating. HAving rejected all others I keep testing ZING! This guy is not a poltical insider. He’s a newbie neophyte. I judge that evaluation on it’s own merits ZING! He’s more like a NY street dude than a polished slick willy. ZING! Hey he’s useful as a tool to meet my goal. So is the back hoe
Part III and the most important is develop iyour own system of morals then values, ethics standards;. Yours no one else’s
Ask yourself is it right to use this backhoe? Sure if I get permission from the owner or buy it.
As yourself is it right to turn loose the street fighter with a real Attitude on Washington DC?
Hmmmmmm
YES! For my goal is to destroy the one party system both Democrat and Republican parts and more importantly the Secular Progressives.
Act accordingly always testing, evaluating and improving always asking IS IT Moral by my standards.
The only standards that count.
At the end. Was it useful, was it successful could it be improved, were their dangers than could be avoided.
Then keep testing and preparing to enlarge the swimming pool or do the same in 2018.
That’s objectivism
it’s a tool that can be used to measure yourself, reality the right and wrong of things in particular your own belief systems.especially.
The opposite is subjectivism and what was the original Plato method. You can not know what is real including yourself but others can so just listen to them and eventually you will understand.- and do as you are told or trained to do. Plato allowed himself and others an escape hatch. – for philosohers. He taught that nothing is real all is fantasy and only those few special people can explain it.
The French Revolution did much the same thing when the Sinister or Left led the revolt against the Gauche or Right. the second being the Divine Right of Kings as the source of power
1776 the founders filled that space with responsible self governing citizens the ultimate source of power.
1898 the Progressives began to teach the right was bad and the left was good and placed some of their own in that position . SecProgs call all etheir enemies Conservatives a 12 letter obscentity word. Now it’s taught as if gospel but it is not true when you examine the nature You can think reason and develop morals as and individual.
1920’s Mussolini asks Lening both then leaders of socialist parties “How do you explain Marxist Economics it makes no sense to me. Lenins replied, “You don’t teach it you preach it as an article of faith in the Party (secular church) and explain there are comrades that do and one day you too will understand.
1990’s to present. Secular Progressive begin their training manual with exactly the same story.
But believing that story is ‘up to you.’
That’s how it grows. Objectivism measures and suipport or rejects – by your standards and your decisions. Leaviing you ultimately responsible
Which is exactly wha the founding fathers of the coutnry stated when they chose responsible citizens to be the ultimate power.
And that’s what happened on Nov 8th. it has before and will again.
Is it right or wrong.
Your choice.
But when you offer that choice to someone don’t be surprised when they ask for your test results and your standards of measurement.
And that’s how the little group I belong to influenced the election. We weren’t the only ones. That is what surprised all of us.
.
You see the deal is you don’t get to make up your own fictionary and deafinitons unless you can back them up with some reason. Like PC and ValleySpeak it is not the responsibility of the reast of the world to figure what you babbling about. It is responsibility to open a real dictionary. You are not uip to PC Level yet and they are still struggling with the fact that their favorite word ‘person’ is blatantly sexist
I’ll use myself as an example. I won’t use the left right mantra of the leftist extremists. That was copied from the French Revolution – to solve a propaganda and leadership problem – by Marx and Engels and reipeated by the rest of the left wing community from Adolf and Josef all the way to the secular progressive extremists AKA liberal darwinistm materialist socialist democrats etc.
For example it does nothing to explain the true position of fascism small ‘f’ and Fascists large F since the meaning of those words includes the above laundry list includes some of the various titles uses since1898.
It does nothing to explain why the republicans or RINOs cave to the left as McConnell is doing now. He isn’t they aren’t a separate party with that group in charge they are the right wing of the left having the exact same goals and basic philosophy of government. Government Over citizens.so Government Party is more useful.
Someting we, as a nation, moved to correct and apparently save for dumping a few more Congressional Snow Flakes have stemmed the tide and started a reversal to a two or more party system.
Stein showed her true colors today and is one of those who think the election should be up to polls.
The fascist nature of the left has been apparent since 1913 long before the term was put into use.
So.. we are left with another wild ass fairy tail with nothing to back it up and you like Huma are left holding the bag..
Po: +1
Steve Groen – community standards are the morals of your community. Po is wrong again.
Paul, easy enough, show how.
Again, what makes up morality?
Community standards in terms of constitutionally-protected speech are those of the finder of fact, be it a selected jury or a judge. They’re not individual or cultural morality.
Steve Groen – community standards when found by the jury, represent the community. The judge as finder of fact, stands in for the community.
Which community, Paul? Based on the law that said judge represent, such community varies greatly, but it isn’t necessarily identified based on your wholesale idea of community.
The moral culture of NYC and update NY may vary greatly, yet would be represented by the same judge. So if the judge represents the community’s morality, which community, the one in NYC or the one upstate? The one of Lena Dunham or the one of the orthodoxy jewish communtiy?
And remember before you reply that you wrote this: “”People who live in NYC are less likely to share a morality with the people in Pierre, S, DaK, then they are the people in L.A. “”
Po – community standards are the standards of the community you are in.
Sure Paul, how do they relate to morality, and to the law?
Po – they represent the commonly thought of morality of the community. I might not do x, but my neighbor might. Therefore it is morally okay to do x.
Actually minus two but then you have to read the other post to find out why. Thanks for the extra votes we’re working on 2018 already
Michael, if you provided a refuting argument to mine, I missed it amidst the flood of your unhinged windbaggery.. Please provide it again SPECIFICALLY addressing my comment in context.
We can go from there.
Until I see your rebuttal, I still believe you are speaking out of your rear end in lieu of effectively responding to my unassailable argument.
However having tested an measured the nature of Po ….and the unending attempts to reframe the discussion I …have no use for you but will continue to evaluate. Sometimes things do change.
Last comment when you decide what is moral and do the opposite anyway. That is called evil. Everything has it’s price but as an objectivist I know that an individual also has the capabiltiy of convicting their own self or acting out of moral conviction. . No one else.
Thank you, Michael for willing to continuously evaluate me…perhaps I’ll meet your out of nowhere standards for me after all.
AS for morality, perhaps you ought to define what it is before you decide what it does…
You do understand mathematical formulas don’t you?
Castro is a complicated figure and respected throughout the Americas except in the US. In Cuba he is their George Washington despite how much demonizing of Castro there is in our media presently and over the past 60 years. Few seem to remember that like a number of other notable anti-colonialist revolutionaries of that era, he came first to the US government looking for support but was summarily dispatched without the slightest consideration because of our love for the tyrant Battista. Our media has adopted the position of the nearly fascist south Floridian exiles most of whom were closely allied with the tyrannical old regime and who have dreamt all these years of reclaiming their position of wealth, power and tyrannical exploitation of the common citizenry of Cuba. Those same exiles have frequently perverted our own domestic and foreign politics with their selfish desire for revenge and restoration of the Battista tyranny. After being sent packing by the US and then upon succeeding in getting rid of the tyrant, the US went on a campaign only recently lightened of attempting to destroy the revolution and then the government of Cuba. The American efforts, extreme and longstanding failed to produce the desired result. It was because of the undying hostility of the US government and its program of isolation and embargo and subversion of the Castro regime that Castro was given little choice but to use nearly dictatorial power to maintain the regime. So, pretty much like every other CIA inspired and utterly shortsighted plan, the things we blame Castro for doing we pretty much made sure he had to do. Yet this is never even hinted at in the US because it might mean and actual evaluation of our wrongheaded and counterproductive policy toward Cuba all these years. This is by no mean excusing Castro for the horrible things he did but those things occurred in a context that is never, ever presented in any way by US media thus the extraordinary contrast between the reaction worldwide to the news of Castro’s death vs the response of the US media and US propaganda to the same news.
Left wing socialist fascist drivel from the war monger party.. Pretty much… Whatever that means – or something. The snow flakes hace spoken and having spoken – melted X+Y=Zero. Nothing new here.
Excellent perspective of the US Cuban relationship. Thanks for it.
I did not find your statement about ‘through the Americas’ true in Argentina, Uruguay,Bolivia, Brazil, Paraguay, Belize formerly British Honduras, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala nor in Mexico. In Miami the Cuba Libre is known as La Mentira porque Cuba no es libre. In Mexico it is called a Cuba porque Cuba no es Libre. nor in Panama with the exception of the followers of Noriega. but then I only lived and worked down there for six or seven years and more recently in Mexico for three years
I cannot comment either way on the ther countries except Venezuela where your statement holds true depending on to whom you are speaking and more importantly who is listening. Even those who have a grudging respect for his ability to stay in power will not grant that to Raul “El Carnicero” or Che “El Tonto.”
But then I usually got out of the cities and mingled with the country folk, farmers and such. Either drove or rode the Chiva bus.
Nor were they always complimetnary to the USA but then locally that applied to the USM and the USB. There are of course three United States in the hemisphere
A telling comment was why the US didn’t export it’s Constitutional ideals in the same way as Castro exported Communism, why did the USA government support the fascist governments who were the same as Castro, and why were our Presidents, sometimes,’ so similar to to Castro. in the last centurye they were speaking about Johnson and Carter. In this century they speak the same way about Obama and further…ask why the USA has been such a fascist police state lately.
That same question is often asked by Europeans east and west, and from other parts of the world.
I do not defend our nations sad record of supporting dictators and often wondered why the Cubans were the only other game in town besides the local governments. So why weren’t we supporting the ideals of self government, representative democracy and constitutional republics?
Might hace something to do with a hundred years of having the opposition largely in charge for most of the time. i guess they just crept up on us while we were all sleeping.
Do we deserve, as a nation that bitter and condemning comment?
Yes.
As a nation do we have to continue to deserve that bitter, condemnation?
No.
So why are so many supporitng a socialist autocracy instead of one with a government that is a self governing representative democracy at it’s very foundation supporting a Constitutional Republic controlled by responsible citizens?
Michael: Mexicans have been brainwashed from a century of PRI threats at the local level that any other sociopolitical ideology has been squashed. Not so in Cuba. Mexico is a conquered people, and our footprint is all over their misfortune. Remember Gen. George “Pickett’s charge”? He was supposedly the first one over the wall when the US Army assaulted Chapultepec Castle in Mexico City during our first exercise in imperialism.
Anyone who stands up to predator capitalism in Mexico ends up like those 40-odd students in Guerrero. Even Vicente Fox, the first breath of fresh air in half a century or more, quietly left office like a neutered boy scout never to be heard of again, and we all know why.
As for the rest of Latin America, need I remind you that US intervention has been ubiquitous. Whether it’s through arming or otherwise assisting coups of democratically elected heads of state or the facade of a drug war, our unwanted presence has been brainwashing Latin America for nearly two centuries.
I’m always fascinated by folks — educated like yourself — who try to impose America’s internal sense of ethics and fair play on foreign societies who care for neither. Morality is much more related to geography than universal human intuitions. America exists in a world of wolves who would have no compunction in tearing her apart if they could — a “state of nature” as Hobbes might say. Western notions of morality have no currency in international affairs as history has borne out time and again. In the world, life and freedom belong to the strongest or the most cunning or both. And there is no authority to say otherwise. Dreamers in international affairs are truly wonderful people; they just don’t last long.
“Dreamers in international affairs are truly wonderful people; they just don’t last long.”
Interesting view, and I’m sure many posting here will join in it.
I see people as all the same. Treat them with respect and they’ll do the same.
Crooks, well, we can’t do much with them, nor with those that presume everyone else is a crook.
Especially if we consider that America did not invent morality, whatever morality she veils herself while exporting the complete opposite is morality she built off eastern moral/cultural/geographical human intuitions or divine guidance.
That exceptionalism we advocate on her behalf is the exact reason we have this:
” Whether it’s through arming or otherwise assisting coups of democratically elected heads of state or the facade of a drug war, our unwanted presence has been brainwashing Latin America for nearly two centuries.”
Po:
We certainly did invent 𝘰𝘶𝘳 morality which we modify all the time and enforce under penalty of law. Every society does.
Okay, Mespo, what is OUR morality? And how does it differ from morality abroad?
How did we invent it?
Can iyou say that three times fast and by the way. Where is our proof ? We are still waiting even after providing the sources. And you have yet to deliver. But I shall prove your point. Hillary. America has no morality Hillary received over 50% of the popular vote. Alll the voters were American. Therefore all who voted for Hillary are immoral. Damn. Now that truly is true. Including the morality of making a claim iyou are unable to and unwililng to prove. I didn’t know Paul was a Professor but I see by your actions or lack of you are not ethical.You are an American (careful it’s a trap) therefore immoral. Hoisted by a rather self applied petard and well worth the price of admission.
Steve: Well, that’s where we disagree. I don’t “see people all the same” and further see no moral equivalence between ruthless killers and their innocent prey. Treating people who hate you with respect will garner you nothing more than their contempt and subject you to aggression from your perceived weakness. The world is not Main Street USA. It’s more like Mogadishu where armed warlords are happy to relieve you of your possessions, your sense of morality and your head. As an experiment how would you have handled our OSU refugee terrorist today? Respect and kindness?
mespo, you’ve forgotten the part about how they got to the point of hating us. Why?
Steve: I really haven’t and we can endlessly talk about the hows, whys and wheres. I just know when they are hurtling toward you in a box truck or slashing at you with a knife or flying into a building it matters very little if your great-grandfather took his land, or besmirched his deity or overthrew his government. They are irrelevancies to you, unless of course, you self-loath enough not to fight back. And that is precisely where some in the country would like us to be.
Oops .. self-loathe not loath. Damn spell check.
What does my Great Grandfather have to do with me or me with him? What has to do with me is me. Think of it as two birhdays. The day of bilogical birth and the day of attaining adulthood. Not necessarily 21 or 18. That should be enough of a clue to discover the answer. Mathematical proofs not required.
Michael Aarethun: Po is no coward.
Again, that is a fallacious argument, Mespo. You take the most extreme case and use it as the standard for the whole globe. That somali warlord was not there throughout history, it is a rather recent occurrence, and one a quick study would reveal came to be as a consequence of America’s forceful export of its exceptional morality.
You confuse morality with politics. Though one is present or absent in the other, one is not the other. If the US have been at war for 13 years shy of its 200+ years, what type of morality are we discussing?
And if we use a knife attack as a standard for immorality, what do we make of gun attacks? What do we make of the fact that America leads the worlds in violence from police officers on civilians, and from civilians to civilians?
If that OSU somali refugee is especially immoral, would Dylan roof be subhuman?
Po: The problem is the knife attack isn’t the most extreme case. We live in an extreme case world where terrorist attacks are in the thousands … the thousands. You have the choice to defend yourself or seek the mercy of madmen. It’s an easy choice for me. What not you?
Because you are a fool and your world is a dream. I dub thee Poop Tonto. Life is not a fairy tail. But a fool …..probably. Those who speak bravely behind the safety of anonymity….usually shit their pants like a fool.
Mespo, that is not the issue, fighting off an attack by anyone, terrorist or not is a duty for everyone. The issue was morality, and your claim that America is exceptionally moral.
And if we must talk about terrorism, let’s make clear the structure of the argument. Are we talking abroad or domestically?
If domestically, then the numbers are pretty clear, you are at a higher risk of being killed by a toddler than by an islamic terrorist.
AS for the other kinds of terrorists, the non-islamic kind, they commit 90+ % of all terror acts in America.
Po – you are using fallacious statistics on gun deaths by toddlers. Toddlers are more likely to kill themselves then anyone else.
Poop stepped in it this time. The child deaths by hand guns include all classified legally as children and not adults. The age bracket uses is birth to 20 years 364 days and includes gang on gang shootings. It’s more bogus than Po.
Po: Oh and on the other points: Roof, if guilty of his crime, is subhuman as any other killer of innocents; gun attacks on innocents are equally as vile as any other violence; and finally, Somali’s warlords commencing in about the 15h Century are history’s rule not its exception.
Po:
I never said America was “exceptionally moral.” I said we have a domestic morality which does not map onto the world of international affairs. We are a-moral (not immoral) in the world since there is no structure for enforceable international law. No rule of law; no morality.
mespo – there was a Scandinavian minister who wrote an essay explaining that governments could be immoral or amoral, but never moral. Because the government has to protect its own existence it is required to do immoral acts.
For some reason Frank Turek rings a bell and something similar my Mises. Dashed if I can remember the rest. I do recall the Devil’s Advocate scottish minister story. He was burned for his stellar performance and Taylor Caldwell wrote the story.
Mespo, your post suggested America has a different set of morality, which it invented, and that morality is exceptional for it is a higher degree of morality than what the rest of the world, especially Somalia, uses.
You also refused that America’s morality, whatever it is, was at least partially inherited, not invented.
As for Roof, again, if Americans are just as likely, if not more based on numbers to be immoral, how different is our morality from the rest of the world’s?
Po – the morality or immorality of a community is known as ‘community standards.’ That is why it is almost impossible to get a jury to convict someone of pornography. They might not read it themselves, but they know someone who does.
Paul:
Don’t know the Scandanavian minister you refer to but it sounds a lot like American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr in his analysis in his book, 𝘔𝘰𝘳𝘢𝘭 𝘔𝘢𝘯 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘐𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘢𝘭 𝘚𝘰𝘤𝘪𝘦𝘵𝘺, wherein he explains nations are too motivated by self-interest to be moral and that is a natural condition. It’s Christian realism tempered only by Christian agape.
mespo – you got the right guy. I just assumed he was Scandinavian. Thanks for the info, didn’t realize he was American. The person I heard it from was guiding the SDS on my campus.
i wanted to interject a sidebar if you haven’t seen it .
The original Italian filmed “We The Living” filmed during WWII with comments on it’s discovery as two films then combined into one with a changed and more accurate ending by Rand. She had not known the film existed. There are some interesting clips removed but included in the end with the actual ending on Disc Two. Those were included by the Italian censors of the Fascist Government while the movie crew concealed some scenes from the censors as a form of protest. Rossano Brazzi was one of the actors he later joined the resistance. The acting especially Alidi Valli was ‘powerful.’ And the film actually a protest against the former Italian Socialist turned National Socialist government. I got my copy from Amazon and Film Video Distributors. There are others listed but some are in very bad shape and don’t play. FVD’s are new in the wrapper.
Cheers
Michael A.
Mexico is a conquered people, and our footprint is all over their misfortune.
Mexico has never been conquered and they are not conquered now. They did lose notional possession of territory in 1848. That territory was large, sparsely populated, and almost bereft of actual Mexicans.
As for the rest of Latin America, need I remind you that US intervention has been ubiquitous. Whether it’s through arming or otherwise assisting coups of democratically elected heads of state or the facade of a drug war,
No it has not. The U.S. had a long standing garrison in the Canal Zone, has had one as we speak in Guantanamo, annexed one Caribbean island (which has never had much separatist sentiment), and has had a troop presence in or occupied six countries in the Caribbean basin. Five of the six countries in questions were among the Western Hemispheres smaller states. One (Cuba) was among the middling states in population. The U.S. has had no troops in Cuba since 1917 and occupied the territory only in two modest intervals (1899-1902 and 1906-1909).
As for clandestine services, we had no such capacity prior to 1942 and the only elected government removed by the CIA was that of Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954. The Arbenz-Arevalo regime was a political machine state more akin to the Mexican PRI than to a constitutional republic.
The Panama Canal Zone garrison was a full brigade of infantry a full blown air force and navy operation a nd more. As a by treaty that also created Panama (for which Columbia was never reimbursed) by the first Progressive President Theodore Roosevelt it was placed under the Congress who assigned the responsibility to the Corps of Engineers and was a two part system. The Canal Company operated the Canal and the CZ Government operating under a modified California Model Code of State Law took care fo the social and local government aspects.
The Panama government was largely a string of military dictators other than Arnulfo Arias Senior. Although the GIFT of the canal and the return of soveignity to Panama was a the time largely railroaded in the US Congress and featured in Panama a lot of interference with their voting it was never the less a good idea.
the Treaty required the USA to continue to guarantee protection and maintaining it as an international water way. Noriega violated that and is now paying the price. That led the to much freer governments and the sucess of the now finished third locks. Not without problems Panama is doing fine thank you very much.
Among other laurels I am also a former Zonie.
The Panama government was largely a string of military dictators other than Arnulfo Arias Senior.
No, there were not. The country was a polo club republic. There were no interruptions in legal continuity between 1903 and 1931. Over the period running from 1931 to 1968, there were military interventions, but no military governments. From 1947 to 1955 the country was run by the national police in conjunction with a syndicate of civilian politicians. From 1978 to 1990, it was run by the military in conjunction with a similar syndicate. You had a military administration (without qualification) only from 1968 to 1978.
Steve Greon,
I think an “excellent perpspectiveof US Cuban relations should include the arms embargo that the U.S. imposed on Batista during the conflict with Castro.
It would also include the Castro victory lap when he was welcomed in the U.S.
Very little, if anything, has been mentioned in these comments about the period from Jan.1959 ( when Batista fled and Castro marched unopposed into Havana), and Jan.1961 ( when the U.S. broke diplomatic relations with Cuba).
Castro apologists prefer to ignore that critical two year period, as it undercuts the “Castro as an innocent victim of U.S. bullying”.
An “excellent” history of U.S. Cuba relations would not pretend that the U.S. was immediately hostile to Castro, and portray Castro as some sort of innocent hero.
He was far from it.
tnash: I don’t know much about that period, but it doesn’t take Paul Schulte’s Ph.D. memory and knowledge of history to know that when Fidel said ‘no’ to US re-investment on the island that was the end of the honeymoon.
Steve,
– I would recommend that you take a look at the two years following Castro’s victory over Batista.
I also mentioned the U.S.arms embargo against Batista during the conflict with Castro.
Much of what has been posted here in the comments likes to pretend that ” the U.S. went beserk” when Castro took over.
I realize that the arms embargo against Batista and the welcome Castro received on the U.S. following his victory undercut the phony narrative that America was immediately hostile to Castro.
But an “excellent perspective” of U.S. Cuba relations would involve an honest look at that period.
Tie that in with the point in time when Castro finally became honest and declared himself a Communist and the Cuban Revolution became a Communist Revolution. Until then he was more than happy to accept US sponsored aid. It was not always from the US Government. But those who win write the history and those who were born long after became history professors or worse reporters.
What does honesty have to do with socialism? May I remind their most famous dictum is “Anything said or done to advance the party IS the truth.”
The are honest to themselves even as the truth changes . But not to decent people.
tnash – my somewhat fuzzy memory of the period includes favorable feelings of the USA towards Castro prior to his stabbing us in the back. He was always a Marxist, he just lied about it.
Paul Schulte…
– There is a lot of information about the Castro tour of the U.S. in 1959.
I think I mentioned earlier his appearances on the Jack Paar show…
I think he did a walkon on the Ed Sullivan show.
He also met with VP Nixon.
Castro deserves some credit for his ability to play the American media like a violon during this period.
Violon
Violin. I hit “i”, and it types in an “o”.
My memory is not fuzzy and that is a perfect rendition – no memory problems there. BUT rememer to a Marxist that was not lying. It advanced The Paty it is/was the truth. Current example is Comrade Clinton.
Nothing new on the question of late last night. Today we have the Republican PArty counter attacking with their own recount initiatives. Wisconsin is ready but that’s 10 electoral votes. Michigan just gave 16 but said it would take two months to hand count and besides it was over 10,000 so there is no standing. Pennsylvania is already passing the recount filing limit in many precincts and has no interest. Especially for people who are a threat to the Democracy whatever that is.
Do you think some will get the next tantrum on film?
California wants to have a vote on secession. The answer was. Go ahead and leave. We wil rename the State and win all it’s electoral votes next time.
Life goes on…..
Michael Aarethun – I have gone over 70 years without a passport. I would hate to have to get one visit my sister in San Diego. California has some great museum my wife and I love to visit. Would we have to get a tourist visa?
Oh no. I was not sufficiently clear. No passport for Paul. But the former residents would need one. Under the law they could secede, can secede at any time. But the terra firm remains. So divide up the northern counties less San Francisco to Sacramento. Goes to the State of Jefferson. The southern tier excluding LA goes to ….hmmmmmm Bahia Super Norte? The eastern part to Nevada and Arizona.
No one would want LA Country and it’s environs who the hell could afford the water bill?
Michael Aarethun – in theory I agree they can seceed. However, there is supposed to be a case they are basing their stand on. It would require them to agree to seceed and the rest of us to agree to allow them. I know the idea of the State of Jefferson has been floating around for some time and never seems to die, this would be the time for them to strike out on their own. It does come with some downsides. We have several military bases in CA that would have to move. We have a lot of military contractors who are building things in CA and they would have to move. Maybe Puget Sound would be a good place.
It’s a far stretch and more of a protest Californians said to thave the world’s 20th largest economy is heavily in debt and lives off the Federal Governments printing presses so to speak. They would also lose a major portion of their water supply and some other impedimenta. Jefferson was listed for a vote in Congress scheduled for Dec 9th 1941 and one of the last bits of legislation before they closed for the Christmas Season. Dec 7th changed that but the idea is still honored with Jefferson State Day. The rest of the nation may welcome a true secession and that would enhance Washington’s position as the major west coast port. And the building of a new free route eastern Oregon/Nevada, Arizona.
I’m laughing thinking of who would pay their water bill. Then to California would become a major importer of Made In China they ahve no industry of their own and have slashed their food production areas. However I would expect Oregon to follow another deadbeat state and perhaps Washington.
Think of that fence! LMAO
M.
Michael Aarethun – we don’t need a fence, we have the Colorado River between us. Now we have a 6 state compact giving CA part of the water. With CA out of the mix, more of the Colorado for the rest of us. After the Colorado, they have the Mohave Desert to cross. Unless they get lost and cross the Barry Goldwater Gunnery Range. F-35s test their weapons there.
I’m in complete agreement. Their dream plan is to divert the waters of the Columbia River into the upper waters of the Shasta system. I recall the Oregon response when we had real Oregonians was ‘ how much do you intend to contribute to guard such a system? These days I’m not so sure but don’t live there any more. It’s an economic dead zone useful only as a bedroom and retirement area to Californians
Michael Aarethun – Arizona has already called out its National Guard once to protect our border against California. I guess we could do it again. Not sure Gov. Moonbeam has the b*lls to take us on.
Paul: “Michael Aarethun – in theory I agree they can seceed. However, there is supposed to be a case they are basing their stand on. It would require them to agree to seceed and the rest of us to agree to allow them. I know the idea of the State of Jefferson has been floating around for some time and never seems to die, this would be the time for them to strike out on their own. It does come with some downsides. We have several military bases in CA that would have to move. We have a lot of military contractors who are building things in CA and they would have to move. Maybe Puget Sound would be a good place.”
First, the Ph.D. memory: it’s secede, not “seceed,” that must be used to form the third-person plural of the verb (to secede), whether or not “can” (from the helping verb, to be able to) precedes it.
Secondly, as to the substance of breaking up California, what utter nonsense! If there were ever going to be a break up, it would more likely be focused on splitting the state in half, say, drawing a line from Salinas through Independence. Of course that would never happen because southern California would dehydrate within the week.
What’s more, secession would not only require an initiative or referendum in California, it would require federal congressional approval under McCulloch v. Maryland (1819), and that’s if secession weren’t impliedly unconstitutional under that same legal opinion. Good luck on getting such approval considering California’s is somewhere around the eighth largest economy in the world. Trump wouldn’t get those big aircraft carriers and F-35s at his disposal without California taxpayers.
Steve Groen – thanks for the spell check. I think CA seceding is a thought problem, not a real occurrence. However, I did read in some article about it that CA has the 6th largest economy is the world. Still, most of that is generated by the federal government and they would be losing that. And what would Pelosi and Boxer do? They wouldn’t be citizens anymore. The fly-over states that CNN currently hates so much, would have a lot more power after the 2020 Census.
It will never happen, but it is fun to think about.
There were originally 12 amendments to the Constitution. Only ten were ratified. One that was not ratified required one Representative for every 50,000 people in the state. Considered the state you are living in. What difference would that make to representation? How much easier would it be to talk to your Representative if they only represent 50,000 people. For instance, my town would have 5 Representatives just for themselves. Also, think how much harder it would be to steamroll a bill with that many Representatives to deal with? Just a thought problem.
Okay. Fair enough. Can you provide any insight as to why there was an embargo in place prior to Batista’s departure and as to what caused the falling out with Castro?
Steve,
There was widespread disgust in the U.S. with the brutality and incompetence and corruption of the Batista regime.
That is what led to the arms embargo againt Batista.
There are still ongoing claims for the American property Castro seized without compensation.
That action by Castro had a lot to do with the deterioation of U.S. Cuban relations.
Castro’s establishment of a dictatorship, and his bloody rampage in executing political opponents, tarnished his
image in the U.S. as well.
The anti- Batista American exiles, who held to fund and arm Castro, felt betrayed.
Castro’s promise of “no dictatorships” proved to be he joke; what he really meant was “no MORE dictatorships exept mine”.
These are some of the events that caused a souring of theU.S. Cuban relationship.
HELP TO FUND, not “held to fund”
tnash: Thanks for your points, and I would generally agree with them, although I haven’t studied US-Cuban relations. The first one, however, regarding Batista’s corruption during the Eisenhower administration and considering how involved that administration was in Central American politics (including the – you guessed it – overthrow of a democratically-elected President Jacobo Arbenz of Guatemala) doesn’t pass the smell test.
Batista was a capitalist’s capitalist, apart from being a dictator. My intuition tells me (and, admittedly, that’s all it is) that US re-investment in Cuba was in the form of a demand rather than in a precatory manner. Perhaps Batista wanted a bigger cut off casino profits as most megalomaniacs seem to need and lobbyists persuaded the administration to leverage. Batista then thumbed his nose at it, and therefore relations with the US soured.
My guess is that after a lot of research, we’d find that both governments were dirty. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. I know you look at issues clearly without embellishing to defend a position.
The truth is now coming out. Castro owned 20 luxury homes, where he kept mistresses, his own island, and an 88foot yacht.
for those of us who can remember when Castro took power anyone who praises him must be smoking something. He was willing to be a puppet of the Soviet Union and had no problem allowing them to start it install weapons that would end the world forever. All of these people who complain the election results if it were not for the Soviets backing down over the blockade they would not have an election to worry about because JFK would have been forced to seriously use nuclear weapons
Duke – he was principled, and he stood up to and outlived a lot of the bullies to the north. Certainly the lack of civil rights was appalling, but you have to admit the guy had YUGE Spanish balls.
A “principled” tyrant billionaire while his people lived in poverty.
Nick: The billionaire part of it would be worth exploring. I’ll grant you that, if true, such wealth would dull the star on his beret. Who knows? Maybe he was investing quietly through Panamanian law firms along with David Cameron’s family.
Steve, Tyrants from both ends of the political spectrum live opulent lives.
Many of them and Saddam was one were invested in US T Bills something we hear from time to time including those most virulently anti USA. Financially it’s withi good reason. Money takes precedence over patirotism except for those who reportedly moved their family trust fund account to Canada. .
Now Cuba’s safe for Trump’s hotels.
Capitalism has left a trail of environmental destruction that spans the planet. Now Cuba, once trapped in time, will get its consumer goods and mega-resorts.
Like we need another mega-resort. Playing golf while the world dies.
JackW – they already have a couple of golf courses on Cuba. At least one is 18 holes.
I wondered if JackW was in favor of the Ilois being returned to the Chagos Archipelago and Diego Garcia. Sound like a good idea. Not. A. There is no such thing as citzens of that area. There are descendants of former employees and before that French slaves from Seychelles and Mauritius. the whole thing is a scam to build more hotels and golf courses. and destroy the largest marine reef preserve in the world. Point is things are not always what they seem. PR wanted the shooting range on Vieques Island shut down. Lots of support for that. Having no shooting range the Navy and Air Force had no reason to stay. All the local employees are not cleaning rooms and serving food in….you guessed it more hotels and golf courses.
Actually if the opportunity occurs let’s try something different. Leave it up to the residents to decide what they want..And while we are at it make PR and American Samoa a country of their own.
” ‘may well’, ‘likely’, ‘suspect’, ‘possibly’?” That’s four escape to evade irresponsibility . A little bit unsure perhaps? Come on….what do you KNOW?”
Now here are two examples of properly worded comments of the same nature.
“Subjectivism Sucks Objectivism Rules.”
“Does throwing a bi-polar temper tantrum and screaming fit and abusing your own employees after losing out on what was advertised as ‘my turn’ qualify one to have their finger on the nuclear trigger? I don’t THINK soooooooo. In fact I KNOW sooooooooo.” Little Californian Valley Speak thrown in no extra charge?
Fidel’s net worth was estimated, some time ago by Forbes, at ~$ 1 billion! The Clinton’s and Batista are green w/ envy. The wealthiest person in Venezuela is Chavez’s daughter. Capitalism is more socialistic than socialism.
And you know you can rely on it if you found it in Forbes – one of the most objective, evidenced-based (CIA) publications ever run by a Gay billionaire & his spooky son.
Pay Pal?
Thanks, Autumn. I think Tim is stretching things here saying Team Clinton will be in anyway “assisting” this recount.
Steve, you might be right. I think right now we are all wondering WTF? =) And I loved your description of the incorrigables wanting to undo the deplorables.
That is why Chelsea Clinton smokes cigars.
So, what is your point with all this? You could just say, “I don’t like Clinton and I didn’t like Castro.” Do you actually have any factual evidence that Castro and Hillary met like that? Or just vague mud-slinging?
JAY S
Like most of the customers here, Lee & Steve are not very well informed. Too much koolaid has left them unable to see thru the fog and the tangled web their heroes weave.
bill mcwilliams: thanks for being one of the real informed customers here. May a diseased yak . . .
Tired, but always happy to point out right-wing propaganda and plain old ignorance, STEVE
Castro and Hillary sittin in a tree…
K I S S I N G.
First came love..
Then came marriage…
Then came Chelsea in a baby carriage.
There’s an old joke in Spanish about Fidel and Tarzan about to fight over Jane.
Tarzan pounds his chest and says, “Yo Tarzan.” (I’m Tarzan.)
Fidel contemplates, rolls his cigar in his mouth, and says, “Yo Castro.” (I’m Castro, the double meaning of which is from the verb castrar: I castrate.)
Tarzan then says, “Ya me voy!” (I’m outta here.)
If Clinton/Stein are concerned about the process, why are they only recounting states that Trump won? It seems to me we should also recount NH, then take a good hard look at IL. The result in IL would not be different, but if we are looking at election fraud, a recount should scare the crap out of the Dems for what it might uncover.
The question which needs to be answered is this: Is Stein going through the recount thing because she feels guilty that she cost Clinton the election or was the Stein/Clinton alliance set in motion before the election so as to hedge Clinton’s bets in case she lost?
Vince: Stein received small donations to obtain enough for the Wisconsin recount. She’s also applying for recounts in Michigan and Pennsylvania. There are deadlines (I think this coming week) and fee thresholds. And I think the distinction needs to be made between Stein’s effort at increasing her share of the popular vote and Clinton’s interest in the electoral college. Is NH’s as relatively important to Stein’s actual vote count or Clinton’s electors?
Steve,
Stein’s/Clinton’s challenges only in those states where Trump won belies their assertion that they are solely concerned with the validity of the electoral process. They are either (1) trying to delegitimize the election or (2) raise money for Democratic coffers.
I apologize that my point was not clearer. I did not mean to imply that NH has as many electoral votes as WI, MI or PA. I only meant to suggest that the Stein/Clinton confederation is attempting to con the American public into believing that their actions are benevolent and non-partisan, sort of like Hillary’s claim that she used a private email server for convenience. See a pattern there?
Here is another point that I will endeavor to make completely clear: If you think Stein/Clinton raised $5,000,000 from small donations, you might just believe that rocks grow.
Vince: You may be right about Stein’s source of funds as I don’t have any information to the contrary, but it would surprise me as inconsistent with the Green Party and her resolve throughout the campaign. Those are traditionally Democratic states, and Stein got lots of Bernie votes that would otherwise have gone to Clinton. I think Stein may have gotten more than the claimed 1.2M votes, and I would be equally surprised if her motive in spending Green donor money were trying to get Clinton elected through the back door rather than increase her vote total. Stein and Clinton are not tupperware-party friendly.
Steve,
Stein is spending neither her own nor the Green Party’s money. It’s Democratic money. If it were Green Party money each person who voted for her would have needed to donate in excess of $4.00 to reach the $5,000,000 figure. If even 10% of her voters donated, each would have needed to donate in excess of $40. Stein must have used Democratic donor lists to amass $5,000,000 in a few weeks. Those lists could only have come from the Clinton camp. I know a few Stein voters and none were asked to contribute.
I am wondering if it could be money left over and unspent from the pre voting day campaign. I am NOT up to date on campaign financing laws. A while back they just kept anything left over but I believe that changed So all this could be to tie it to the campaign and avoid some fine, fee or tax liability. We have Stein supporters here and none of them knew anything about it. Could be a lot of things but until the final campaign reports are turned in probably will not know. The email I received said she wanted to raise two million in one day to pay for a recount in Pennsylvania. Strange because I was not on any of her lists, nor should have been. I’m wondering how much of it is one of the scam artists tagging this current effort.
Shrug……
According to the website zerohedge.com (I don’t know the political leanings, if any, of this website or the source of their information) Stein collected $87,000 immediately upon launching her website. In the 1st half hour, she raised money at the rate of $2,000/minute. In the next approximately 2.5 hours, she raised money at the rate of $3,370/minute. In the next 5 minutes, she raised revenue at the rate of $4,867/minute. In the 1st 6 hours of Thanksgiving Day, she received money at the rate in excess of $4,000/minute. Fund raising then tailed off to around $2,000/minute. She raised over $5.5 million in 4 days. That sure is a boatload of small donors.
Vince: Thanks for this. Perhaps it is a good portion of the 60,000,000 or so Clinton voters who don’t care that they’re paying Stein’s campaign, so long as there’s a chance of an incorrigible undoing a deplorable.
May I add a thanks. It’s very encouraging to read something from somebody who can and will do the research and eschew fairy tails. I for one appreciate the effort.
Vince: Stein solicited funds for this recount from me and everyone else who signed up for party information.
“Stein must have used Democratic donor lists to amass $5,000,000 in a few weeks.” It makes great argument, but does the evidence supports this?
Agreed, Steve, I voted for Jill Stein but this recount thing left me a bit confused, at best. I could not believe small donors gave that much money for a recount, though she claims they did.
I am not sure what the Green party stands to get but I would to be very surprised if they are doing it on behalf of the democrats.
There is this take on it but quite insufficient me think.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article45931.htm
Po: Thanks much for the information clearinghouse link. I certainly hadn’t thought of that, and credit goes to the Ph.D-level memory who wrote earlier about the disqualification of those three states for failure to meet the federal recount deadline (December 13th). Remember that, Paul?
If this is the reason, and it’s as good or better than any offered thus far, I don’t know that it’s worth the trouble. Trump can make himself look bad well enough all by himself.
Steve Groen – Wisconsin has said they will put a clock on the recount. It will stop before the Electoral voting regardless if all the votes are counted are not.
Paul: That might provide for an interesting lawsuit for the state’s failure to fully perform after a candidate has paid for the full recount, and the state would be complicit in its own disqualification for not having completed the recount by December 13th.
The newest interpretation for the recount apparently is that the Green Party is testing the anomalies observed between exit polls and the actual vote count. As has been claimed since the primary anomalies, when the US observes foreign elections and the margin of error is beyond a standard deviation, the presumption is fraud. And that was the case throughout the primaries. It seems to me this is a legitimate effort to find out just how consistent exit polling in these three swing states was vis-a-vis the actual vote count. Although it could potentially see Trump never having won 270 electoral college votes, I highly doubt that will be the case, and it may lead to improved election accountability.
Steve – you think I am the only one who lies to pollsters? Using exit polls as a criteria is hardly a valid criteria for a redo.
How do you justify our government’s standard for fraud in foreign elections based on the same criterion?
By the way, why lie? Why not just tell pollsters you don’t want to divulge your vote? In other words, why be an A-hole?
Steve Groen – because it is none of their business and screwing with them is more fun.
There are two truism in the law. Police conducting an investigation do not have tell truth to someone being investigated especially after an arrest. It’s common to tell one the partner in crime has gone state’s evidence for example.
The second ione is the media is under no obligation to report facts or preface a propaganda hit segment with a warning label. The public is under no obligation to speak to the media at all and zero obligation to that segment known as pollsters. The public can even send the media in a wrong direction at a wrong time.
What they both cannot due with latitutde for public figures is ‘defamation of character’ or similar and it only applies to the public if it’s not generally broadcast or not couched in media/political style escape hatch wording.
One incident was McGovern of North Dakota in his run for President was said to have an unusually high interest in little children or words to that effect. The source was his own web site. Sure enough it showed his family interest and all the grand children. Nothing there but how many checked out the source. It all has to do with the choice of words and the inflection. The media deserves to get as good as they give.
PS don’t try it LEA. That’s what lawyers are for. GRIN
STEVE
Remember: some of the customers here believe that money drives everything – but some people should be ashamed for acting on that notion: mainly people whose ideas are not stuck in 19th century America.
Vince Jankoski – Jill Stein may be on the wrong side of this one. She only got 1% of the vote yet is asking for a hand recount. Sounds flimsy to me.
Paul: You’ve always been the master of the conclusory statement. Haven’t you?
With all the crap that’s been flushed out on the lack of any uniform voting procedure, through Wikileaks, the Russians, internalized misogyny, and grabbing [w]ussies, your conclusory statement sounds a bit flimsy to me.
Steve Groen – do you think some state should pay workers time, overtime and double-time to hand count ballots for someone who got 1% of the vote? Is that a good use of money? She does have to put up 1m, however I am sure the amount is going to exceed that.
Paul: Yes, and hand-counted ballots should be mandatory nationwide.
Steve Groen – I would prefer my state pay straight time to count the ballots, even if they have to bring in contractors.
Wagers there’s an ample supply of the old who will do the job and won’t insist on union-scale.
Toads – Arizona is a Right-to-Work state. 🙂
You mean right to fire for any reason or no reason and no right to organize like doctors, bankers, lawyers for-profit senior citizen businesses (AARP).
I’m sure you didn’t mean THAT kind of law, right? wing.
To which right are you referring? The right wing of the left? The right wing that the left created? The real right wing? GRIN.
bill mcwilliams – Right To Work means you are not compelled to join a union to get a job.
Lots of Wisconsinites have nothing better to do than volunteer to count ballots. Besides, the corner tap is just a block away. Girls were girls and men were men:
I wish I owned an old LaSalle ….
When a candidate asks for a recount, do they have to specify a reason?
Jay S.
No, candidates don’t have to specify a reason for a recount, but they should have one. Also, when you ask the American public for millions of dollars you should both have AND specify a reason.
We’ re going to count the votes until we get it right.
That’s what Al Bore said until he found out there was more money running his Secular 700 Club. Now he’s a multii gazillionaire living in non-green houses. let’s hear it for the party of the people.
I think the Wisconsin recount will be instructive. Either the numbers will change a lot, or they won’t. If they do, you can anticipate recounts in the other rust-belt states. If not, then that will be that.
Jay S. – they have to make the application before a vote will be counted. 3 states will be prevented from participating in this election thanks to Jill Stein and Hillary Clinton.
Paul: If there were a recount that indicated Clinton won, I don’t know that the affected states wouldn’t participate in the election. What’s more, rather than worry about your candidate, I’d be worried about election law per se.
Steve Groen – as I have said the recount, a hand count, is expected to take two months. Wisconsin cannot certify its electors for Dec. 19 in 2 months, they will be over the voting date. And you have to convince a judge.
Paul:
The Wisconsin recount will start on December 1 and be finished (under federal law) no later than December 13th. Also, only touchscreen ballots and hand-counted ballots can be recounted by hand, not optical scanned ballots without a court order. “In discussions with Wisconsin election officials over the years, a hand-count may not be as timing consuming as one may think and avoids pre-testing of the equipment and reprogramming of memory devices.”
http://elections.wi.gov/node/4439
Here’s the Stein petition:
http://elections.wi.gov/sites/default/files/memo/20/wisconsin_recount_petition_of_jill_stein_00268242_65117.pdf
Stein’s rationale is hacking.
Steve Groen – I think Jill Stein’s rationale is very thin. Hillary would have a better chance to convince a judge to hand count.
and it would take longer and be well past the Jan 20th ‘too late now!’ date.
Cuban healthcare? Dr’s make something like $67 a month. If they work outside of Cuba any money they make is confiscated by, you guessed it, the government. If I had to go south of our borders for medical care I would either go to Mexico or Costa Rica. Say what you want about capitalism, money always greases the wheels.
Panama is also well regarded. Mexico is about 40% of US costs when you subtract premiums, deductible and co pay it’s worth it. If you are like me as a military retiree we have to shell out $1200 a year for Medicare plus an annual fee and it’s no good outside the country. Better to get a third party catastrophic payer with a high deductible and low monthly cost. If you are outside the country it’s completely legal.
In this country, are doctors really worth $300K or $500K or more per year? That’s one significant reason that medical costs are so high.
Jay S
No, and they know it – which is one reason why Nurse Practitioners represent a big threat to their gravy train. NPs are perfectly competent to be an alternative to Primary Care physicians. And yes,
NPs can prescribe medications.
NPs also tend to listen better and take a bit more time.
Jay S. – I don’t know about you, but there are signs in my doctor’s waiting rooms saying One Complaint at a Time. If you have two, you have to schedule another appt. Your NP is not taking any more time, it is all regulated. If they spend more with you, they spend less with someone else. All has to even out at the end of the day.
The NPs are allowed to see fewer patients in a day, than the MDs. At least, where I go.
In your case, if you say “why don’t I get any more time with the doctor?” have you used up your one complaint and they show you the door?
Certainly no sign like that with my doctor. He takes as much time as he needs to. Whatever state you are in, remind me not to go there for any treatment !
Independent Bob…
The exporting of Cuban doctors brings in $2.5 Billion annually to the Cuban government.
The sex trade on Cuba is anothet source of hard currency for the Castro regime.
Ironically, Fidel shut down the brothels and casinos when he took over.
Now, Cuba is a pedophile’s parardise, with preteen prostitutes as well as the more conventional hookers available.
Wow, a pedophile’s paradise….. How do you know this?
Common knowledge to my Canadian friends and the cruising community. No big secret. The negative aspect is the Canadians don’t want the US to open it up as it will drive prices sky high! Not to mention the cost of AIDs medication.
Jay S.
– There have been numerous articles about the Cuban sex business.
This is one of many: “Canadians are Major Customers of Cuban Child Sex Trade”. -from the March 16, 2013 Toronto Star.
Well, that’s good because Cuban doctors are needed in many places that lack adequate medical care – as you seem to be saying about the United Snakes of UhMurricuh.
It’s adequate we were saying ‘affordable.’ In Mexico it’s both adequate AND affordable due largely to a great education system AND a market economy. I just threw that in to be the gas on the fire and liven up things a little.
I thought Hilary conceded? And wasn’t Donald Trump asked if he ,would accept the results of the election. It looks to me that the est,ablishment pols are doing everything possible to keep Mr. Trump from being elected. Recently tweeted by Jill Stein, concerning Hilary joining ing in asking for a recount, “democracy is not an on again off again thing”! I believe in order to upend The Donald they will have to flip more than one state.
He just picked up 16 more from Michigan which puts 30 him well above 300. Broom Hilda is was down about 40. or so. Yes it would take more than one state and North Carolina is still up in the air. By the time they are done it will be January 21st and the losers will still be the losers. Wisconsin is 10 meaning he would still be six above where he was at the end of election day and it’s aftermath. Klein doesn’t have that kind of money and the Clinton’s have no more supporters. Do you think they will spend their own money?
ha ha ha ha
Stein’s brought in $5M just for the Wisconsin effort, which I would hope is one resolved to increase Stein’s percentage of votes, not Clinton’s.
She was just running a rush donate two million campaign on her web site. Maybe BroomHilda is going along fo the free ride?
Hillary would never take freebies: “They just gave it to me,” referencing Goldman Sachs.
Steve Groen – it is exactly as Trump called it, a scam to get money. She got 5m, she only needs 5m to file.
Just as a point of etiquette, if for some reason the vote counts change, can a candidate “un-concede”? Has that ever happened?
Isn’t unconcede or deconcede what Al Gore did?
Celebrate…
Celebrate!
Dance to the music!
One of the reasons Kennedy got shot was his unbalanced tactics on Castro and Cuba. You cannot have a Catholic as Commander in Chief in the U.S.
Southern Baptists only? How about an atheist or agonostic?
Sorry, “agnostic” not “agonostic.”
JFK was assassinated as the result of a domestic conspiracy by elements of the CIA & U.S. military.
You know this how?
Research
Apparently you are unaware that there is a difference between credible research/sources and non-credible conspiracy crap masquerading as research.
The bottom line: “His unquestioned success on literacy and health care is no substitute for human rights.”
I give Fidel a lot of credit, however, for standing up to US imperialism, which likewise “is no substitute for human rights.”
It is an interesting philosophical point, is it better to be more free yet destitute, uneducated, and sick. Or is it better to be less free, with better schooling and medical care?
It would be instructive for someone to cite a country with a totally laissez-faire capitalist system, where everyone prospers. Or does “freedom” require a darwinian outlook, in which the sick, the unlucky, and the poverty stricken are entirely responsible for their own tough luck? Are we all in this together, or not at all? Am I not my brother’s keeper, or “screw my brother”?
Jay S: Well stated.
If we’re going to be in the same foxhole awaiting a human-wave attack in war, it defies logic and serves no purpose other than that of the 1% if we’re at one another’s throats in peace.
Fidel’s success against Batista, the fascist dictator, was the country’s downfall in that he chose Stalinism rather than simple social programs, free speech and democracy, for fear of losing everything he’d fought for. Much of that had to do with the inherent difficulty of converting a settled, comfortable bourgeoisie while invoking land reform among other programs and the constant reminder of quality of life afforded capitalists to the north.
He certainly wouldn’t have lasted so long without disposing of the opposition. We’ve done the same thing, though, for decades, and perhaps the Stalinist approach would have subsided had Big Brother not been up breathing down on him for 50-odd years. We’ll never know, but it will be interesting to see what path Raul takes.
Fulgencio Batista was an ordinary caudillo of no special distinction bar his durability, his occasional use of electoral contests, and his tolerance of office-holding by civilian politicians. He was also rather lax with his enemies, imprisoning the young Castro for just a couple of years under an ordinary penal regime. (See the case of Huber Matos for a case-study of Castro penology). He wasn’t a ‘fascist’ except in the imagination of the ignorant red-haze.
Batista wasn’t a crony corporatist? Puhlease. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Batista :
After taking power by military coup:
“Batista opened Havana to large-scale gambling and announced that the Cuban government would match, dollar for dollar, any hotel investment over $1 million, which would include a casino license. Moreover, Batista reorganized the government so that he and his political appointees could legally harvest the nation’s new-found riches. This period was marked by considerable construction of private high-rises and public tunnels and roads, including the Havana-Varadero highway, the Rancho Boyeros airport, train lines, and an underwater tunnel. Havana became the third most wealthy city in the world, with more TV sets, telephones, and late model Cadillacs per household than any city in America. The ‘Civic Plaza’—later renamed Plaza de la Revolución under the Castro regime—and its surrounding buildings were also completed in these times.
“The Cuban people, tired of corrupt governments, were initially accepting of the coup, hoping that Batista would restore stability to the island after the political violence, labor unrest, and government corruption that had occurred during Carlos Prío Socarrás’ tenure. Advocates of liberal democracy, however, viewed Batista’s presidency as unconstitutional and unacceptable because he was not elected. Due to rising popular unrest and to appease the United States, Batista held an election, in which there were no other legal candidates, to become the supposedly legitimate president of Cuba in 1954.
“Despite the unprecedented economic prosperity of the 1950s, opposition parties, such as the now firmly anti-Batista Ortodoxo and the Auténtico, managed to promote social unrest. Radical anti-Batista university students planted bombs that killed civilians and military personnel alike. Batista responded with repression of the subversives. However, government corruption and claims of close relationships with the mafia, now resulted in a rise in general opposition to his regime from the rich and middle classes. . . .”
Nice bit of deflecton.
Now, were i taking you at all seriously, I’d point out that incestuous state-society relations are not a signature of fascist regimes (and have been characteristic of Latin American political economy quite generally – see Hernando de Soto’s critiques (which leftists despise if they consider them at all). Such cruddy interaction is characteristic of the Obama regime.
Your npn-sequitur is duly noted.
There is no such thing as ‘U.S. imperialism’.
Toads: You’re the best.
US imperialism is a myth. You don’t create an empire only to give it back to the locals and then pay them to keep your bases there to protect them. We’ve done more good for our hemisphere and Western Europe and Taiwan than they could ever hope to repay. Enough America bashing out of self- loathing.
I will give you an example that is close to the mark. And mention the second gift the founders gave to the world after the ‘idea of self governing free and independent responsible citizens a condition not found on the planet prior to the events of 1770-76 and up to 1787. The second gift was the curious idea that one could help their neighbor without confiscating his land in payment. Monroe Doctrine. Else we would have Kuwait as one of our Territories or States
That aside the Banana Republic incursions conducted by FDR on behalf of United Fruit and others business concern might be considered a form of economic imperialism. Prior to that the doctrinne of Manifest Destiny took our nation from sea to shining sea all based on land grants by King George III but later by purchase from other European powers – Russia and France come readily to mind and by conquest of other imperialists but also by conquest of residents known as descendents of the the original inhabitants or Native Americans. The continuation of the reservation system even after beating up on South Africa for apartheid still remains. Much of those activities Manifest Destiny and home grown Apartheid are examples of Imperialism.
To our credit though we took no part having not been born at the time in much of that the nation has taken responsibility, slowly but surely, to correct what we now perceive as wrongs – although our living generations have responsibility towards different forms wrong doing I denounce the welfare system as one of them and, continuation of the Military Conscription Act still in force as another and the very sad state of the education system as a third.
Yet even those will ‘eventually’ wither and die a well deserve death.
But the most damning indictment is treating our dogs better than our children which is the only way to put it. Those who read Heinlein and do not rely on movies will know of what and where I speak.
We are as a nation far from Sainthood but we have the means to make corrections. An ongoing process. and something clearly not taught in the majority of the nations universities these days.
So perhaps there is an attempt, partially successful, at an imperialism of the mind My last possible example of the existence of such – under whatever name.
It is a pleasure to speak with and for those who have escaped that condition.
There is yet work to be done and more tunnels to be illuminated.
Don’t disagree with your analysis but that’s not the imperialism complaint about. The Left Thinks we’re Hitler circa 1940.
That’s a laugh but with education the way it is – go figure. National Socialism descended from International Socialism and the two are joined a the hip with nought but one main difference – perhaps two. They are the extremists of the left.
1. International Socialism denies the right of ownership of anything to everyone (except the ruling class in their class less society of curse. The curse of Plato and the French Revolution) International Socialism known as Communism believes in pure Socialist Economics a centrally managed system that is of course a complete failure as it reiles on a neo-slave system (not so neo anymore. )
2. National Socialism the spinoff primarily in Italy and Germany were former Socialist Party people and leaders allowed private ownership including businesses but heavily controlled. The term is Fascist or State Economics currently being practiced in this country in ever increasing degrees through the 4th Branch of Government and it’s neo-Oligarch Commissars. State or Fascist Economics as Socialist Economics with as thin veneer or patina of Capitalism. The business owners are expected to provide a stipulated return to the government to maintain their ownership and control. This form is known not only as Large F Fascisms but as Nazi-ism Or National Socialist Workers Party in German.
The right wing myth for the Nazi’s and Fascists was created first by the French leftists in the early 1800s to fill the blank spot left when their main enforcer Madame Guillotine was put to work . The left usurped the role of the divine right of King and that ushered the ruling class of the classless society.
Small ‘f’ fascism is defined as complete control by any and all means available and necessry. It is practiced by both the two mentioned above and their spinoffs one of which is secular progressivism in varying form s and degrees. North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela and a number of African dictatorships. remain along with the Fourth Branch of the US Government
That is not to castigate or besmirch what are commonly called socialist nations but as the Swedes will tell you – been there done that didn’t work – and like the Chinese became Market Capitalist States as the economic system that support a heavy emphasis on social programs. But the Swedes got rid of welfarism and will not allow it’s return except certain unruly unable people.and most of those supprted by private organizations such as churches.
Still LMAO whatever happened to eduation I learned much of that in high school fifty plus years ago.
There are lots of definitions of fascism. In light of the Italians having been the first to produce a Fascist movement, here’s Mussolini’s definition: “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8316271.stm
He goes on to explain, “Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production….”
“For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence.”
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/mussolini-fascism.asp
Resemble anywhere you know of?
He also, with his followers invented the modern day left wing fascist socialist triumverate of Statist, Corporatist and Labor Leaders which is the full description of what you mentioned. The same version put into play by a follow on to Wilson namely FDR. I didn’t expect that bit of knowledge at a George Carlin nor his candid admissions.
Presdient Obama blew it. All he had to do was to say, “We are not going to normalize relations with Cuba while Castro is in power”. Actually, Trump could have done that, too. He would have won Florida by an even bigger margin. They could have even limited their insistence to Fidel and let Raoul linger on for a while. Instead, President Obama insults Cuban Americans and misses a golden opportunity to normalize relations with Cuba in a less divisive environment, i.e., now. Cuban Americans love Cuba, but hated Castro – with good reason. For a President who ponders all decisions until the moment is lost, he uncharacteristically acted on impulse and made his move too soon. Thus, his legacy on Cuba is: Fidel was ok. To what extent this policy cost Clinton Florida is an open topic.
One might consider some other factors when commenting on Obama’s recognizing of Cuba. Obama recognized and moved to normalize relations with the Cuban people, not a dying tyrant. The concept of holding a people hostage in order to punish, remove, discipline, etc a leader is not unique to US-Cuba relations. The traitorous Republican party has been screwing Americans for almost eight years in their power mongering through obstructing Obama, regardless of what he attempted. The perfect example is that the desired by all infrastructure program that would put millions to work in all levels of income and fix the ‘deplorable’ state of our infrastructure. Republicans have obstructed every attempt by the White House while Obama is in power. Mitch McConnell, perhaps America’s leading traitor, openly stated that regardless of the benefits to America, nothing coming from the White House would be entertained while Obama was President. Americans lost. The decades of attempting to strangle Castro through the people is not much different. The Cuban people, regardless of whether or not their allegiance to Castro was for self preservation or sincere, are the ones that suffered and continue to suffer.
One might ask just how different Cuba would be today if the US had perhaps just laughed off their ‘revolution’ and permitted the people to experience freedom through tourism and investment. The tactics of Castro of eradicating his opposition, both real and potential, through thousands of executions was more than helped through the closing of the country to the benefits of freedoms of commerce, education, etc. by the US. The harder one is pushed, the harder one pushes back.
The ideological arguments have been shown by history to be almost entirely hypocritical. The US considered and still to some degree considers the Western Hemisphere to be it’s backyard and has destroyed elected leaders and governments that it considered a threat to its dominion. Obama’s move to lift the facade was a rare time America spoke out of one side of its mouth regarding its neighbors.
Cuba won’t change overnight. America is still an oligarchy with one more party than exists in Cuba. Elections in the US are won on the basis of hate, fear, and anger. Perhaps it’s time to ‘smile’ Raoul out of office. The easiest country to govern is one with no interference and no contact from without. Trump came into power on a platform primarily based on xenophobia and closed minds and with xenophobia and closed minds and some loose change for a few years he may pull off a Reagan or a Bush and be around for eight. It will be interesting to see who cleans up this next Republican mess.
issac – wasn’t the first embargo of Cuba by John Kennedy and wasn’t he a Democrat? And wasn’t he followed by Lyndon Johnson, another Democrat? They started this whole Cuba thing.
Some one with an IQ as high as you allege should be able to read more carefully. The recent argument created by Obama’s lifting of America’s boot off of the throats of Cubans has been primarily one of Republicans against and Democrats for. There are obviously those on both sides who differ with their party. Was that your next observation?
It was also the traitorous Republican Congress and then traitorous Republican Senate that will go down in history as the ‘my way or the highway’ gang of thugs. You tube is full of videos of Mitch McConnell’s imbecilic smiling face explaining to America that regardless of whether or not it is good for America, America won’t get it if it comes from Obama. These are facts, recorded for those who take the time. What’s sad is that your responses surprise me less and less.
issac – I know you are not familiar with the US Constitution, however the Congress is expected to be a check and balance on the Executive. The President is not supposed to get everything he/she wants and Congress is not supposed to get everything it wants.
You are talking to deaf ears Paul. They left behind representative democracy and constitutional republics a long time ago and went for left wing socialist fascism. Bloodthirsty bunch of brown shirts aren’t they though? But don’t expect logic or reason from this sort. They aren’t allowed to think only ‘follow orders Mein Herr’
Michael –
I’m getting confused by your nomenclature. Are there “left wing socialist” fascist countries around? With left-wing brownshirts? Maybe Sweden? An example or two would be helpful ….
And you think that you are employing logic and reason when you call them a “Bloodthirsty bunch of brown shirts” and use other similar language that is only meant to demonize the opposition?
Not at all. I’m pouring fuel on the fire. Intentionally. Sticks and stones etc.
dogfightwithdogma – I think he was using the same logic and reasoning used by Hillary Clinton when she described half the nation as “deplorables.” Actually, he was in a conversation with me and you have rudely butted in. Butt out.
Paul
The point of a government is to benefit the people. The point of the Republican party during Obama’s tenure was and remains to garner power, at the expense of the people, for the sake of power to be expressed dictatorially. Witness this the breakdown of democracy and the rise of the oligarchy. The people have invited in a tyrant. This is as old as history itself. The Greeks did it. The Romans did it. And, now US.
Another reframing attempt turned into yet another failure. Better read the Elephant book again. You are not up to the big leagues. Rejected with an “F”
Michael, calling people names does not really advance your point. Do you have any actually comments re isaac’s points? Should government benefit all the people? Some of the people (which ones?) ? Are we heading towards (or have reached) oligarchy?
Jay S – the government’s number one job is to protect its citizens from invasion. The current administration has been an abject failure at protecting its citizens from invasion.
The other view is the current administration may be assisting it’s true citizens in entering. Same as taking the revolutionary part in a serious street theater called the cycle of repression. I have no loyalty to an administration that terms it’s own military the greatest danger they face and then cobbles together a schutzstaffel stating ‘I want to make it as powerful or more powerful than the military.’ B.H. Obama
We should not jump t conclusions. He hasn’t abdicated yet.
Michael Aarethun – it is something that I have kept in the back of my mind. They just past a national martial law. My only hope would be that the military would not obey it starting Jan 20
Paul
The French and Indian Wars have been over for some time. The Great Depression was caused by a disconnect of government with economy and a separating of the uber wealthy from the workers, without whom they would not be wealthy. The Great lesson garnered from the Great Depression was that without government regulation the economy falls prey to the whims and avarice of the disconnected wealthy. Keynesian economics infers that for the economy to grow at a constant and progressive rate, the whole picture must be included in the formula, that the government must design an economic system that funnels money to the bottom and then up as with the establishment of a minimum wage during the Great Depression. There is no shortage of the ultra rich in the more socialist and more successful democracies of the world.
The dysfunction of our present era started with Reagan and his a** backward trickle down economics. It didn’t work, doesn’t work, won’t work, and Reagan himself admitted that when Bush was losing to Clinton. You don’t water the leaves exclusively. You water the roots. Without workers who are paid decent wages there would be no society and no wealthy.
Americans forgot that when they elected Bush. Along with his other brilliant moves, Bush lowered taxes on the wealthy. Income trickled down and the debt rose. Now, here we are with the genius Trump who proposes to lower taxes again on the ultra rich, do away with regulations, and roll back the EPA among other idiotic moves. We will experience a short upswing as money is released into the system, followed by an increase in the national debt just as with Reagan and Bush, then there will be another recession.
What’s that adage about what it means to repeat the same mistake again, and again, and again? Trump is the greatest illusionist to come along in some time. To sucker in so many with this formula that has been proven wrong so many times takes a masterful ringleader as well as enough poorly educated voters.
By the way, Paul, protecting its citizens from invasion may be the government’s number one job but someone of your IQ should realize that government has many, many, more jobs. But to some, out of site is merely out of mind-lot of empty minds out there and on this blog. Now come inside out of the Arizona sun before you lose any more brain cells.
issac -Keynesian economics raised the federal debt from 10 trillion to 19.5 trillion in less than 8 years. Why would someone with my IQ want to follow an idiot like that?
“Keynesian economics raised the federal debt from 10 trillion to 19.5 trillion in less than 8 years.”
So what? There is no timetable by which the debt has to be repaid or paid down. It can always be rolled over, and the government controls the interest rate to service the debt. Our children or grandchildren or grandchildren a million years from now, won’t have to pay it back unless they want to. Sovereign national debt is not like personal debt, business debt, or even state-level debt.
Jay S. – Democrats shat themselves when Bush 2 got the debt to 10t Took him 8 years to add 5t. Now doubling it in less that 8 years by a Democrat is no big deal? You have to be kidding?
Try this instead. the debt is being paid right now by people presently living. Keynes warned the system works until you can’t pay or service the debt. The last go round gave us a huge cut in the value of the dollar. So follow this. Increased debt, Inflation, Devaluation of worth and Debt Repudiation. Who got shafted?
Retirees and old folks who cannot work anymore even if there were jobs. Here’s the mechanism. Everyone else gets more time a wage price spiral but the old folks only have COLA to make up the loss. Checked the COLA figures lately. Conveniently government sponsored debt is not in the market basket of carefully selected items. So? 30% cut in buying power no increase in come to compensate bingo the debt is passed on to the elderly. Not to mentioned their medical coverage screwed with.
It isn’t even good Market Economics it’s just plain old continuation of ‘fettered’ or controlled State Economics – the current name which started out to be Fascist Economics.
Round two has kicked off. How big a hit are you going to take this time? Well ask the people who attained retirement age in the last ten years. Brand new targets for economic repression.
Michael Aarethun – I have supplemental income. 🙂 I think my wife figures if she retires in 5 years she could actually be making more than she is now by double.
But if it wasn’t for dollar devaluation without a corresponding adjustment you would have had our times the buying power instead o two times dollar value. I didn’t include the rise in cost example
1999 and 2000 the last years of the 20th century I was paying 95 cents to 99 cents a gallon at the cutrates.
Compare that to two other costs.
The highest level reached between then and now.
The current price .
Largely due to the unexpected SW Texas oil – which reminds me why are we now an exporter and still importing when we have a larger reserve than the Saudi? – I believe the last price I saw up in Arizona was about $2.00 a gallon.
So the price went from one dollar to some higher figure down to Two dollars but the two dollars takes how many dollars after devaluation? Off the wall I would guess three.
And although this may not happen now thanks to Nov 8th results the one candidate was talking enhanced taxes including federal gasolilne tax AND that includes a cost for the subsidies paid to ethanolize the fuel.
Like time once it’s gone it’s gone. Dollar devaluation could be adjusted but not without an honest COLA.
Which isn’t going to happen
Therefore eenie meanie my knee Mo I choose you to satisfy the law of TANSTAAFL.
Especially when you retire.
Michael Aarethun – gas was 2.09 a gallon yesterday. It is probably lower certain places.
If this didn’t end up under and related to a quote by Acton it should be.
Acton also said ” Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But it is not the power itself that corrupts but the power to coerce.”
Thus defining why we need checks and balanced and why the active participation of an educated and voting citizenery was listed as the ultimate power with the most responsibility. And if they will not or are prevented from doing so?
De Toqueville’s comment is the result, “.Despots do not seize power it is handed to them voluntarily.”.
I am loathe not to end with that is the fly in the ointment which is stated, “One man’s Dictator is another man’s Clinton.” Sorry couldn’t resist.
PAUL – so we wouldn’t have been invaded if Obama hadn’t been preoccupied with doing the bidding of the 1%. No wonder you’re so afraid of the invaders. Or did you mean the Raiders? They won again today.
bill mcwilliams – we are being invaded by at least 1000 people per day.
Wherever did you get the idea that the government’s number one job is to “protect its citizens from invasion.” This is one of its functions, but declaring that it is the number one job is only an opinion, no better than any other opinion about what is the government’s number one job. If you want to convince anyone that this the number job of the government then provide a well-reasoned argument in support of this claim. It is not in my view the number one job.
No problem and you can do the same thing one day and it’s very reasoned.
Read the Constitution. Congress has a list of things they have to do and over half say exactly that. Police and Judicial come second and third. At the Federal level it’s all about protect the nation from foreign enemies. At the State level it wa all about internal protection police function. Of course it helps if you read the Constitution. With the Declaration it’s a whopping huge 5,000 or so words. About the size of a good article and it’s in Article I.
This is one case where every citizen is expected to have read and been taught that document in civics class. If your teachers failed to do so jack slap them, vote against the school budget and read it yourself.
i will go so far as to say without reading it and having a basic understanding you are way over your head in this forum.
So simple question. What are the requirements to qualify for becoming a Supreme Court Justice? If you can’t do that one simple question start reading. Article III
Normally I try to cite sources. in this case ……I just did. But I won’t make a habit of it. Students are expected to do homework. Second question the phrase full faith and credit pertains to what? Aricle IV.
Michael Aarethun – there is an age requirement for SC justice, but you do not have to be/been a lawyer and you have to be a citizen of the US. That is without looking it up. I have a Constitution on my desk, however it is currently buried under other papers.
dogfightwithdogma – when you take philosophy of government, it will be a test question. Use my answer and you will be all right.
I believe that’s been on the books for some time. Part of Posse Comitatus. Martial law iaw is already the privilege of not just the President but the Governors, Mayors, City Councils and County Commissioners.
Was it something additional on it’s own merits or another one of those hidden away in another bill that hasn’t been written yet deals like last years additional expansion to the suspension of civil rights?. Or was it just another Presidential decree without Congress?
I’d like to pursue that and see what this one is all about. Bad enough they have arrest on suspicion without a warrant minus definitions and ‘say’ it’s only for terrorists but fail to put that in writing. i’m trying to imagine what short of actually declaring martial law they could have added.
Thanks for the heads up.
.
Michael Aarethun – they passed something (not sure it was not faux news) but it was just before the Thanksgiving break. It was one of the little reported, middle of the night deals.
Nothing on Google nor in any of the usual politics oriented sites. The only thing found stems back to pre primary days. The story goes Obama realizes the military is not is biggest fan and has no sworn allegiance to the President only to the Constitution. Not bad for a constitution scholar it’s common knowledge in the military. So they are tryiing to figure a way to get arouond that. The idea was to do a martial law call out on some pretext or the other – like the recent violent rioting of the well you know the war mongers of the left. It’s their thing. So they could set that up no problem with the snowflakes etc. and the BLCs,
Once in a state of martial law he would have dirct control of the military – especially through his political appointees. Units they ddn’t trust which is ha ha most of the combat arms would be deployed out of the country or disbanded in the recent 50% military cuts. Meanwhile they would try to get a new oath of office. HArd thing to do it’s specified in the Constitution – no wiggle room. Nothing became of that i guess hte snow flakes and BLCs couldn’t get the tempo up enough. to suit a real crisis fever pitch needed to in turn suit the media.
He also stated he wanted to enlarge the DHS or state security branch into something “equal to or greater” in power and force than the military meaning they would get a militarized branch tanks, artillery and all similar to the Waffen SS that would be under this direct control through carefully selected leaders and
Nothing came of it that we know of except parts such as the actual military cuts and deployments. the out come of the voting may have not got him too excited on the idea BUT now the recount stuff has rebounded on the left and a faction from the winning side has started collecting for a similar attack on close states that went for Clinton. The counter revolution continues…with the losers an extra 16 behind as Michigan just finished an extensive hand count and trump won by around 5,000.
But as for the other nothing and no answers yet of course from some of the sources.
Chris Carr, Political Director is the contact number for the Republican recount countner attack. Seems they finally got out of bed with the Socialists and decided which side of the bread to find their butter while reading the tea leaves to say the least. Most of the reports on the Socialist side hacve the money going to Jill Stein with Hillary going along for a free ride.
The controversy is the hand count as some states cannot do that and can’t recount all the ballots. Either way two states reporting it’s a two month job which means…..well past 20 January.
I’m guessing Clilnton’s trying to breathe air after her poltiical death and mental breakdown and she still has to finish with four ongoing investigations. Trump only said he would not push it. He didn’t say he would stop nor impede the work of law enforcement and IRS Investigators. Obama can’t pardon there are no charges filed to pardon and won’t be until after 20 January. That family is in corner with non drying wet paint in every direction.,
True and there are others to consider. Since he had no point except talking points that continues to deny the rather open and transparent role of the RINO controlled Republicans and then sort of trailed off into ….I treated it as a standard reframing attempt designed to take control of the conversation.
As for your version – How do you define Oligarch? A small group of people having control of a great ‘many.’ To me that defines an autocracy when the definition adds ‘with an oligarch at the top.’
What else is Obama except the Chief Oligarch of the Progressives system of a single party government .
Isaac had a statement but no discernible points. For my part I would mention a series of one man rule rulings backed up by a small number of fellow controllers. First thing comes to mind are international treaties which were not voted on by Congress. What started as end runs became a straight forward head on attack.
The government has never in my lifetime worried about the people as in “General” Welfare so ‘all the people doesn’t fit.. Except yes it should but no it isn’t.
However Isaac like anyone else is welcome to provide some observations, persnal opinions and perhaps a fact or two here and there. If he can. if he will.
issac – if what you say is true, then what is the benefit of the Democratic party to blacks? Slave states, Jim Crow laws, voter suppression, the KKK?
Did you forget their anti civil rights record. Bad enough with LBJ’s bill where it took the entire minority part to make up for the Democrats who voted against it. Then there is Dec 31st 2015 when they demonstrated their anti civil rights posture again by broadening suspension of civil liberties and rights in the Patriot Act. Note the defintions section does not excluse citizens. Like the draft it’s a snake waiting to strike.
Hey dumb ass McConnel is your dog. The RINOs are the right wing OF the left. And we gotta put up with you fascist war mongers I see your mental case is trying; to get Wisconsin over turned. What’s a matter you haven’t killed enough of us? WWI WWII, Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Central America under Carter, Kosovo etc under Clinton, and now 16 solid years of war with nothing to show for it but a suspension of civil liberties in you Patriot Act? don’t you people get tired of killing people and then blaming the other half of your own fascist party? If you can’t control your dog McConnell that’s your problem.
Paul
You forgot to mention that most of the wars started by the U.S. were Democrat wars – doing the bidding of the 1%.
bill mcwilliams – someone else had mentioned at the wars started/led by Democrats. I was trying to stay on topic for once. Not easy for me.
PAUL
Well that explains a lot. Have you tried Prevagen?
bill mcwilliams – my memory is excellent. I took a test the other day and it placed me at a Ph.D. level. I would have scored higher, but I blew a couple of science questions.
issac: Kennedy did such a great job invading Cuba in another of our endless “regime changes” (check the current carnage of your adorable little half-black Baby Jesus Obama in Libya and Syria), then the morning after (reported on NPR this AM) after Kennedy’s loss in the Bay of Pigs, he conjures up the war in Vietnam in his newly built Situation Room in the White House, which only killed 50k American slaves (draft victims, mostly minority) and an estimated half million SE Asians.
You’re such a Democratic shill.
What leader of a Republican Congress desires to compromise and deal w/a President who says to Congress: “If they don’t like it, sue me…I have a telephone and a pen (AKA: middle finger to Congress)…If they won’t act, I will,” etc. Do you have any idea how many of his EOs have already been defeated in Court? President’s have two choices w/Congress: convince or lose. Apparently this ex-legal scholar fails at debate, but excels at Chicago strong arm tactics and making dumb ass Millenials goo goo eyed.
And Obama’s point man who wrote the all time biggest one time government takeover of the economy (Obamacare) admitted he specifically lied to the public about the law because the public was too stupid to vote the right way, and the Democrat then-Speaker Pelosi who supported the 2k page bill saying, “We have to pass it to find out what’s in it.”
You missed the memo: Americans love Obama and hate Obamaism. Americans demolish the Dems when your baby black Jesus Obama is not on the ticket, and I got news for you: Michele ain’t running soon and ditto the two daughters.
Plus Democrats are the primary supporters of taxpayer funded abortion on demand up to the moment of birth, including w/o parent consent of any age child no matter how young…60m dead since Roe v. Wade. (And yes, I know Rep candidates for President have only lied for votes to Pro Lifers…but our VP elect has apparently sworn to end RvW.)
Ban both major parties from national office for at least a half C.
JFK although a Democrat ordered all the troops mostly advisers a nd liason and zero combat units OUT of Vietnam before he was killed. Lyndon Baines the Butcher Johnson after he became President after JFK was killed reversed the order. He then sent the Navy to the International offshore limit and their the story of the Rurner Joy and Maddox gets real murkey. suffice to say they were fired on and were or weren’t across the line and the Navy support air craft reported no sign of the gunboats. Johnson THEN ordered the 2nd Inf Division renamed 1st Cavalry Division into Vietnam.
That was LBJ’s war still a Democrat but JFK gets the credit for Cuba fiasco and the Bay of Pigs was all Cubans as far as the official record goes and damn the movies. Johnson gets credit for the near 60,000 dead in the Vietnam War. Then followed the build up. The Advisers under MACV I don’t think got to leave. If memory serves they were due out before the end of the year. JFK never made it that far.
End of Story . Of course it was easier to follow when you were a part of it and not a johnny come lately snowflake with biased professors.
Any questions? No? Class Dismissed.
Are you aware of another party in the USA. I know of the splinter or message parties but beyond that and until one or both of the former two parties proves otherwise I see only the Government Party with two faces and the RINOs acting as the dogs to the DINOs.
They don’t cave they are just the right wing of the left and McConnell continues to prove that.
Citation du jour:
From today’s NYT: “Now that a recount has been initiated in Wisconsin, we intend to participate in order to ensure the process proceeds in a manner that is fair to all sides.” – Marc Elias, the Clinton team’s general counsel
I hope this doesn’t mean the war monger party still has a chance. Haven’t they killed enough of us? And after that mental breakdown tantrum she through. This does not look good at all.
Was Nixon a warmonger? Was GWB? Or are only Democrats warmongers?
All right I’ll answer that and embarass you
Democrats
Invasion of Mexico James Polk….Democrat.
WWI, Wilson Democrat
Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic FDR using the Roosevelt Corollary to support US and European business interests
\
WWII FDR Democrat
Greece Truman Democrat
Korea Truman (Cuba which a JFK operation)
Vietnam LBJ Democrat
Dominican Republic an LBJ invasion.
Carter Democrat had central America at least two countries,
Haiti Clinton Democrat
Adriatic States includingKosovo. Clinton Democrat
Obama – Democrat Did not pull the troops out as promised,
When he did went back into Afghanistan, added Syria and
North Africa remember Benghazi and toppling the government of two nations prior to that? conflict is ongoing.
Democrats complied with the War Powers Act zero times.
2. Democrats and Repuiblicans
Civil War although South Carolina Democrats fired the first shot.
3. Republicans
Mckinley Spanish American War Republican
Eisenhower had Lebanon as I recall.
Reagan had Genada and Panama
Kuwait goes to Bush 1st barely a hundred casualties.
Bush Iraq with its ten or more stated reasons.
Kuwait and Iraq both times complied with War Powers Act.
You were saying what about which Party is the War Monger Party? In round two we cover US casualities and the red face gets a layer of egg. Hint: Since WWII the ratio of US Service personnel killed is 18 for a war or conflict or action started by a Democrat to a very lonely 1 in wars started by Republican. However with Clinton, Bush and Obama it’s a one party system with two faces, two fingers pointing at and six pointing back I’ll give you othat one as freebie.
IOW – the War Monger Party is the 1% – who don’t care which wing of the Property Party takes credit for a given war of aggression in furtherance of the Empire’s goals.
OMG I went through the looking glass into fairy tail land. Oh No! Mr. Bill?
So much for subjectivist reframing.
So you don’t refute nor rebuke my direct accusation that the fascist left AKA Democrats Socialists whatever are the real war mongers and instead come up with some fairy tail.
Which leads me to believe you must agree with the direct accusation so shall we add party of slavery, Jim crow laws, and heavily anti civil rights. Most recently voting to replace probable cause with ‘suspicion of’ on Dec 31st 2015?
Or is it lack of credibility?
Either way or both it didn’t work and your original statement is proven false false false unless you can come up with something better than fairy tails
I stand on my statement the Democrat Party has started more wars and conflicts and killed off more American Citizens not to mention drafted more (all) against their will with your Military Conscription system than any other single entity in the 240 years of the nations history.
Fairy tale? Sounds more like a weak pleading excuse to dodge responsibility.
Battle and other war related deatjs in Democrat initiated wars of US Service personnel
WWI 116,708 Woodrow Wilson Democrat Progressivist
WWII 407,316e Franklin Delano Roosevelt Democrat Progressivist
Korea 036, 576 Harry Truman Democrat Progressivist
Vietnam 058,207 Lyndon B. Johnson Democrat Progressivist
The rules are the one that gives the party takes the credit. So no slilding on Vietnam
Republicans and after this they count as the right wing of the left AKA RINOs
However Bush Ii gets credit for Iraq event hough in 2010 it was listed as not concluded 4312
Same same War on Terrorism 714 2010 not concluded
Persian Gulf War Bush Ist 382.
Re-Frame That. But first wipe the blood off your hands.
I looked everywhere but couldn’t find a single statistic on this one percenter diversion. Last I looked that was a patch on a biker jacket Best not let them know you included them in a fairy tail.
Source 2010 Time Almanac and that’s a left wing publication…
In a serious mode for the other readers. I hope those statistics strike a chord and a bit of thinking. WWI was an assist, WWII our side won but then….came home to vote for the same thing they had just finished fighting against. Korea Our side won then the politicians reversed the outcome.
Vietnam By 1975 the military with us still there controlled every square inch of South Vietnam. By 1975 and this is thumbs down on Nixon but fueled by the Democrats – We saw the fall of Saigon on TV as our government conducted something called Peace with Dishonor. Kuwait.
Stated reason return the country to it’s citizens. That won we did win. Iraq? 10 plus reasons given for going into that area. One was one third refuted. The most important according to the Democrats was stop genocide. Until they changed sides. The war on Terror? Lost in the first months when as a nation we willingly gave up our Civil Rights. So what were and are we fighting for? The right of government to make arrests in the USA using ‘suspicion’ as the reason. Guess what? US Citizens are not excluded.
Soldiers don’t get a choice especially now the draft is ‘hold’ or something sort of but still in force. Voting citizens do get a choice. Think of that next time you send your sons and daughters off to war..
Michael sez he follows the rule that if you can’t dazzle ’em with brilliance, baffle them with bullshift.
“If your idea is any good, you should be able to write it on the back of a Business card”
Why do you list FDR as a warmonger for WWII when our entry into the war was prompted by Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor. Was Roosevelt suppose to just ignore that attack?
dogfightwithdogma – if you read a lot of history you will see that FDR pushed us into war with Japan. He was already using US destroyers to tell the British where the German subs were. This is not the act of a neutral. This is the act of an ally.
Paul: Get real. Two and a half years after the war started, and after significant numbers of US merchant and passenger ships were sunk by U-Boats who were able to watch Manhattan by moonlight, you’re claiming FDR “pushed us into the war”?
Your buddy Reagan invaded Grenada for far less, claiming a paternalistic fear of communism spreading to the island and without congressional authority. Apparently, Reagan was a warmonger, too, right?
Steve Groen – Roosevelt pushed us into war with Japan. The Germans declared war on us after Pearl Harbor (which was a surprise to them) because when asked by his generals what they should do about it, Hitler said, we already seem to be at war with the Americans, let’s make it official.
Well, either the vote count in Wisconsin will change by a significant amount, or it won’t. If it does change by a lot, then there will be a firestorm of questions and inquiries. If it doesn’t, then that will be the end of that, and we will lurch forward into Trumplandia, for better or worse. Since the recount is under more watchful eyes than perhaps the original count, we shall see what happens.
Easy assume the worst. Subtract ten electoral votes from Trumps add ten to BroomHilda’s. Trump is sworn in – assume the best Trump keeps Wisconsin and the voting is so irregular in North Carolina a federal judge steps in. Trump gets 16. That one is highly doubtful. assume the absolute best situation. Hillary decides to run again at 84 and once more at 92 and once more at 100. Comedians have a field day doing Hillary loses reaction skits. Meanwhile Chelsea has all the money safely outside the country.
If the Wisconsin vote total changes a lot, perhaps even by enough to change the overall result there, then there will certainly be a clamor to do the same in Michigan and Pennsylvania, at the least. If the results there turn out to be anomalous as well, then we will certainly have a constitutional crisis. If the election ultimately goes to the House, I wonder who they would pick?
BTW, I think even Hillary knows that 84 would too old to try again. And I doubt Chelsea wants to be a politician. Watching her mother get beat up should be a substantial deterrent.
Michigan just took two and half weeks. California is still counting for some reason, Pennsylvania maybe.
The Electors? they can vote for who they want. State Laws do not apply at the Federal level. read your Citizens Hand book and it’s been posted who knows how many times. Likewise the federal government may not interfere with how the parties at the State level choose their candidates.
Now we will see how much money as free speech can influence the electoral college members. Legal through an LLC or Inc as I recall but not direct access. Or the electors may turn in a tie vote and go home.
Which will put it into the Congress and Bingo the field narrows.
Let the good times roll!!!
Michael Aarethun – they are asking for a hand count. It will take a couple of months, 24/7. The Electoral College votes Dec. 19. So those votes would be out of action. They would not tip to either player.
A couple of months? In 1948, people voted with paper ballots and the results were known in a couple of days.
Jay S – the last recount change the count by 300 vote, but they needed over 10000.
Then we shall see what we shall see. Either the numbers will change by a lot, or they won’t.
Cuban Americans that you say “love” Cuba – are members of the Oligarchy/dictatorship that kept the Cuban 99% in abject poverty – and want a return to that kind of Cuba – but the Cuban population will never permit a return of Oligarchic rule. They are educated and informed now.
I know that the emotions within Black America are and will continue to be quite different.
For any Black person in the U.S. who knows anything about the history of the Western Hemisphere, both Cuba and Haiti have a special significance. Haiti, of course, for successfully ousting the French in 1803 and forming the second republic in the Americas; a Black republic. Cuba, in 1959, kicked out the United States, the Mafia, and a corrupt ruling class that had enforced racist oppression against most of the Cuban population. In the cases of Haiti and Cuba, their audacity in the face of a racist imperialism brought forth the wrath of their opponents. How dare the Cubans stand up to the U.S.? How could a country of all of these “brown” and “Black” people insist that they should determine their own destinies?
Bill,
Talk to Cuban Americans. Not a lot of people immigrating to Cuba, but a whole lot leaving.
Looks like recycled drivel from a 1960s edition of Pravda.
bill mcwilliams – Haiti is looked down on by their neighbor. Yes they held the revolution first, but then things went south and they ended up having to pay the French the cost of all of those slaves.
Paul – who told you that? Bill O’Reilly or Bill Clinton?
bill mcwilliams – a friend of mine from the Dominican Republic.
I am glad that the Cubans in Florida are celebrating this dork’s death. Believe me on this one too, for I have been there, the Cubans in Cuba are glad he is gone. They just can not show it in public.
The dumb smoker needed to be shot years ago.
All that is left is for them to rid themselves of the last one. Then we wait and see what emerges. It is very difficult to go from peons of Spain to another country’s care ‘ of sorts’ , then under a military dictatorship but such was the lot of the Latin American countries and most, like the Russian serfs had no history of anything approaching that which the founders. Look at the difficulties this nation endured and still endured. Fully half the nation their minds still in chains and the other half trying to regain a country and an ideal that WE have never enjoyed. Anyone left alive from 1913. Age 103?
Look at the difficulties we are going through with the slave and serf and peon mentality still fighting the idea of self government, Especially when the mentality of submit, give in, submit is taught in schools from day one. Look at some of the slace oriented posts we get here and wonder how would a country with zero history of those ideas and worthy goals survive much less triumph.
Still it is the spirit of those who do make the attempt and refuse the chains that invariably wins out and that is the fatal flaw of Mr.Lenin, Marx, Engels, Hitler, Mussolini up to and including the one’s in Washington DC today.
Best not to say ‘name a better place’ or try to act as paragons of virtue. Better to just roll up sleeves and get at obtaining what has been sidetracked for a century.
The one single thing that is prevailing is we have a history of freedom and independent thought in fully half the country. Get at it and set the example by obtaining what is just a step away so that others can observe – this is only a temporary chance. Take advantage of it
Think not of failure.
Here’s a comment on Veterans Today:
Fidel Castro is the simple result of traditional US policy, exploitation of foreign countries till the last cent. This greed is so ill and led always to suffering of common people and the failure of US administrations.
Mandela said, “We have come here today recognizing our great debt to the Cuban people. What other country has such a history of selfless behavior as Cuba has shown for the people of Africa?
“How many countries benefit from Cuban health care professionals and educators? How many of these volunteers are now in Africa?
“What country has ever needed help from Cuba and has not received it? How many countries threatened by imperialism or fighting for their freedom have been able to count on the support of Cuba?”
Castro responded, “I have not visited my homeland South Africa, but I love it as if it were my homeland.”
In 1994, Castro was able to return the visit to attend Mandela’s presidential inauguration after he was elected as South Africa’s first black president. Four years later, on a return visit to South Africa, Castro was given a hero’s welcome, delivering a speech to a packed African National Congress. Castro could barely get through his address for the cheers of “Cuba, Cuba,” and “Fidel, Fidel.”
bill mcwilliams – Castro was very anti-apartheid. He helped train rebels for almost every country in S. America and S. Africa. He and his buddy were equal opportunity terrorists.
Paul – are you proud of your racist views?
bill mcwilliams – where the hell did you did racist views from a statement I made about Castro being proud of his anti-apartheid views. I am in an inter-racial marriage. I spent my teaching years working with poor Latinos and blacks. My job was to get as many of them into college as possible. I don’t care who, what or where the student came from. Once they were in my classroom my job was to teach them, there job was to learn. Did I have favorites? Yes. Every teacher has favorites. They are the ones who do all the work and more. 🙂 I didn’t care what color they were.
The United States, however, had missiles and bomber bases already in place in Turkey and other missiles in Western Europe pointed toward the Soviet Union. Russian leader Nikita Khrushchev later wrote:
The Americans had surrounded our country with military bases and threatened us with nuclear weapons, and now they would learn just what it feels like to have enemy missiles pointing at you; we’d be doing nothing more than giving them a little of their own medicine. … After all, the United States had no moral or legal quarrel with us. We hadn’t given the Cubans anything more than the Americans were giving to their allies. We had the same rights and opportunities as the Americans. Our conduct in the international arena was governed by the same rules and limits as the Americans.
bill mcwilliams – and Kennedy secretly moved the US missiles out of Turkey after the Russians left Cuba. They both blinked.
and a submarine fleet that took the place of the missile silos. Still Russia didn’t give up all of theirs. The number has just been reduced to annihilating the other side maybe five times over instead of twenty times over. Guessing on that one don’t quote me.
MAD is not talked about as policy but it’s still only a push button away and Unilateral Assured Destruction is just a matter of targeting. All that’s up in the air is the ‘will’ to protect the country and how far we can be pushed. Unlike the other opponent this one doesn’t really care if they are all incinerated but they know we do care so giving them the same toys is not an equalizer. I trust this government even less than I woul;d trust the Jihadists. Too many Chamberlains. But the odds are better now or will be Jan 20th – the question is what are the Islamics afraid of and all I can think of is some of their religious artifacts and locations. it’s not anything; in their Quran seems just like Christians they cherry pick and interpret it any which way.
Ah well. Two decades and Ii’m outta here give or take. It will be the millennials problem then. Snow Flakes and all.
Michael Aarethun – I think our launch codes are set for several countries. If we want to nuke N. Korea Trump asks for the codes for N. Korea. Once he does that, the rest is computerized.
And the same for Iran. With dial-a-yield the only significant factor is the down wind forecast and the altitude. Example while sailing from Fiji to NZ we entered an area of brown dust covering the water.. Turned out to be from the Gobi Desert.
There is a lot to be said for the neutron version in a perverse sort of way. There is nothing to be said for opening up Pandora’s Box one more time.
IOW Paul – you understand why it was wise for Cuba to have a defense against invasions by the U.S. —
‘Great men are almost always bad men’ – Castro was no exception to Lord Acton’s observation.