CBS Fires Its Senior Counsel After She Tweeted That She Has No Sympathy For Those Killed In Las Vegas

150px-CBS_Eyemark.svgdownloadCBS has fired Hayley Geftman-Gold, the network’s vice president and senior counsel, after a bizarre and disgraceful tweet saying that she is “not even sympathetic” to victims of the Las Vegas shooting because “country music fans often are Republican gun toters.”  We have been discussing the free speech concerns over employees being disciplined for expressing their political or religious viewpoints on social media. However, this is a news network that contractually reserves the right to terminate employees for conduct deemed inimical to its journalistic image or mission.

Geftman-Gold fully vented in her tweeting, proclaiming “If they wouldn’t do anything when children were murdered I have no hope that Repugs [sic] will ever do the right thing.”  She then added  “I’m actually not even sympathetic bc [sic] country music fans often are Republican gun toters [sic].”

It was a shocking statement with dozens of families grieving this week over the senseless murder of their loved ones.  As a mother of three children, one would have hoped that Getfman-Gold could muster some sympathy for the families who lost children and loved ones.

CBS emphasized that Geftman-Gold was a recent hire:

“This individual, who was with us for approximately one year, violated the standards of our company and is no longer an employee of CBS. Her views as expressed on social media are deeply unacceptable to all of us at CBS. Our hearts go out to the victims in Las Vegas and their families.”

Geftman-Gold earned her Bachelor’s degree at University of Pennsylvania​ AND then graduated from Columbia Law School​ in 2000.  She was an associate at the law firm of Willkie Farr & Gallagher​ as well as Heller Ehrman​.  She also worked  as Vice President of Business and Legal Affairs for MTV Networks​.  Her husband is Ryan Geftman-Gold, President of Handoff Business Ventures​.  Geftman-Gold is referenced in a prior article as a Clinton supporter who helped organize a premature “victory party” on election night.  (Ironically, Clinton herself was the focus of criticism after launching into an attack of the NRA after telling people to keep politics out of the tragedy).  However, there is no prior controversy revealing this type of callous and hateful attitude.

While she was not part of the news division, her comments proved deeply embarrassing for the network, particularly at a time when the major networks have been accused of bias against Trump and Republicans.  Obviously, as a lawyer, it is often the case that you must curtail your public comments in the interests of a client.

 

682 thoughts on “CBS Fires Its Senior Counsel After She Tweeted That She Has No Sympathy For Those Killed In Las Vegas”

  1. Does the fact that many in all of the MSM think exactly like this woman matter???

  2. The most surprising aspect is not that this person, who made these comments, was, purportedly, an educated individual laying claim to an advanced degree. Do some research–many of Hitler’s Nazis and inner circle were also supposedly educated and, sometimes, religious individuals. Those descriptions did not affect their decisions or worldview, so let’s stop with the faux wide-eyed surprise that she had a law degree. Nothing surprising in that. Nothing. I’ll tell you what is surprising–the declaration by CBS that this being violated its standards. Really? Its standards? I didn’t realize that CBS had any standards. I smell a lawsuit. This broad is going to make a name for herself by going after CBS, declaring that her First Amendment rights were violated when the corporation terminated her based solely upon her personal opinions involving world events, and JT is just the guy to represent her. What do you say, JT? You seem to be such a big proponent of employees being free to say and write how they feel without having to deal with the consequences of those vile opinions and remarks. Why is this particular situation any different from the professors you defend who claim that all white people are the devil and deserving of death?

  3. “However, this is a news network that contractually reserves the right to terminate employees for conduct deemed inimical to its journalistic image or mission.”

    Fair enough. But is this really inimical to CBS’s journalistic image or mission? She seems pretty consistent the prevailing view at CBS.

  4. I am a gun toter. But I am not a Republican. I go back in time. I am a Redcoat. I got shot off the continent and drifted back a few years later after the Revolution. I moved to Louisiana and married a Cajun. I have lived a long life. We are having a concert for Redcoats in Boston next week. If anyone shows up to shoot us then I will shoot back.

    1. Cajun, out of curiosity, and totally off topic, do you know anything about the Catahoula Leopard Dog?

      One source I read said the Catahoula descends from the Norwegian Dunker. But I’ve seen pictures of Merle Beaucerons that are dead-ringers for Catahoulas. And they’re both cattle dogs. And the Acadians came from the same part of France that still uses the Beauceron. What’s the official Acadian position on this mystery?

  5. She is an example of what is wrong with us as a nation.
    The fact that she would hate people she doesn’t know for what she perceive as their political beliefs, is abhorrent. Period.

  6. Thank God it wasn’t a rap concert that got shot up, or it would be front page news for the next 50 years. And yes, Little Miss Geftman-Gold is a perfect icon for the Self-Righteous Left (which is about 95% of the Left). Full of hate and venom and class discrimination. An empty suit.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

    1. It would seem that you haven’t been looking at the newspapers. It sounds to me as if you and the former employee of CBS have a lot in common.

  7. I cannot imagine how clueless she is. How did she get out of law school? Appalling.

    1. She is a prime example of one with a high IQ but a very very low emotional IQ.

      1. frankly – just because someone has a relatively high IQ, does not mean they have common sense. There are sociopaths and pychopaths at every level of society. Only a few act out in a way we consider lawless.

      2. A little noodling around indicates she’s married.(Born Hayley Lattman, married to Ryan Gettman-Gold). Indications are that she’s 41 years old, which suggests she’s been practicing law for about 14 years give or take. Her title indicates that she’s been promoted within the ranks at CBS or was a lateral hire from another company and has advanced in salary and responsibility over the course of her career. She’s not some sperg with bad hygiene employed in a technical position on the staff of the accounting or IT apparat. She interviews satisfactorily.

        I suspect her ’emotional IQ’ is just fine for navigating her social circle. The problem would be the mores of her social circle. Our professional-managerial class is thick with lousy ba****ds.

        1. Did you catch the -dogsh!t label next to his wife’s name in the link on Ryan Geftman-Gold that JT gave above? What’s up with that? Some millenial code that we’re all not hip to?

          1. That is bizarre.

            I’m guessing she’s responsible for about 90% of their income stream and has about 10 IQ points on him.

  8. She deserves her firing and will have plenty of time to consider her actions. I have been in close proximity to terrible events in New York, Atlanta, and Orlando and am praying for those affected and us as a nation.

    Those of you who see political extremism on the left have some valid points. If you cannot see it on the right then you are myopic. Pat Robertson blames this event on disrespect for the flag and our President. Others spread rumors about the shooter being a “converted Muslim” and a “Rachel Maddow fan,” purely from a political agenda. Maybe we can all try a little harder to see more than one side?

    1. enigma – I have a book for you to read. The Sellout by Paul Beatty. It is clearly dark humor and takes a sense of humor. When we last talked books I hadn’t started it yet, but now I have finished it and can recommend it. I will say it borders on the bizarre though. Certainly as good as a Confederacy of Dunces, but takes place in LA. After I read the prologue, I knew I was going to like the book, just didn’t know where it was going.

        1. enigma – put it on my list for the library. I make them do my searching for me. 🙂

          1. Both Enigma and your suggestions sound like good reads. I’ll have to check them out. I know the tragic bare bones of the Florida Terror but not the meat of it like from the Devil in the Grove perspective. And as for The Sellout, I love satire. I wonder if he will be a Yossarian?

            1. enigma – your Thurgood Marshall book is ready at my library for pickup on Saturday. Look forward to it. 🙂

        1. Devil in the Grove is simply terrific history about Thurgood Marshall. Well worth reading about a bona fide courageous legal giant. Regardless of one’s political leanings, a reader will appreciate Marshall’s significant contribution to helping America live up to ideals to which almost all Americans subscribe. As for Beatty, his book is indescribable, often hilarious, challenging and unafraid. As for the CBS lawyer, I can only say that with remarks like hers the odds for President Trump’s re-election only grow as many who voted for Mr. Trump will see the lawyer’s comments as proof of the coast’s’ elitist bias against those in the middle.

          1. Thom – I found Beatty very thought-provoking at times. Still, as you say, the book is indescribable without giving the book away and I don’t want to give any spoilers out. 🙂 It would clearly ruin the readers fun. This is my fiction book club’s pick (my pick) for this month and we meet Thursday to discuss the book. I am really looking forward to it.

      1. Paul, that is a grand read for sure. Any Booker Prize winner is generally excellent IMO. Confederacy of Dunces though I have never been able to read – maybe it’s a cultural thang =)

            1. HMm, okay, must amend my hypothesis. Maybe it’s just a “I understand sarcasm” thing 😬

              1. Cape Cod,
                That is an interesting hypothesis. I typically have trouble with spoken sarcasm, taking people at their word (I somehow miss their tone or expression–unless it is extremely obvious), thereby missing the undercurrent. Written sarcasm must be, for whatever reason, easier for me to catch.

                I do agree with you that Ignatius’ behavior got irritating.

                1. Prairie Rose – Ignatius was irritating, but he was supposed to be irritating. He was/is God’s worst employee. In your right mind, you would never give him a recommendation, a promotion or a raise. If you haven’t gotten to the part where he sells hot dogs from a vendor cart, you have not gotten to the best part of the book. 🙂

                  1. It has been nearly 20 years since I read it. I had better revisit it!
                    Yes, the irritating elements are purposeful. He is supposed to be annoying. Perhaps we are to consider joining the confederacy against him . 😉

                    1. Prairie Rose – Ignatius had a perfectly good reason for doing every insane thing he did. To him, it made perfect sense. And if you see yourself as Ignatius, it all makes sense. The world is out to get you. It is you against the world. 🙂

                    2. Paul,
                      Yes, I recall he had good reasons, but time has dimmed my memory of the details. I had better pick it up again.

                  2. Paul, I found it irritating because at the end it was predictable….at that point I wanted some deviation of behavior. Wishful thinking, but there it is. I did love the relationship with Myrna and the ending. Wikipedia states that Nick Offerman played Ignatius in a stage version….that’s believable, but a film version with Will Farrell in the starring role….ugh.

                    1. CCS – I like Will Farrell, but you cannot like Ignatius, you have to find him continually irritating. I am not sure who I would cast.

                2. Prairie Rose, I grew up in a family that used sarcasm all the time, but it wasn’t used as a form of mockery, but gentle ribbing and in some cases, parental correction (think Marisa Tomei in “My Cousin Vinny”). It is hard to appreciate in verbal form because if you use it with someone with whom you are not very familiar, he/she can perceive it as a verbal attack, which is how the social scientists view it. Maybe The Sellout isn’t really sarcasm (except for Hominy), just biting satire, and I’m mislabeling it. No matter, the book is genius.

                  1. CCS – Have you read “Bonfire of the Vanities” – that, to me, was one of the funniest books ever

                    1. Autumn, yes I have, but I read it shortly after publication and I don’t remember much from that far back. 🙂 I do remember liking it, but need to reread it.

                  2. Cape Cod,
                    I think part of the issue is that in social settings, sarcasm is used far too often to ridicule and demean others with the cowardly ‘out’ of ‘I was just joking.’ My family is a bit facetious, but avoid sarcasm towards people. If used, like your family, only for very gentle teasing, but even that is seldom.

          1. CCS – I live in the South and enjoy many Southern authors – maybe the writing style? Like all forms of art we all have different responses.

            I am always amused at how people respond to my art which literally covers all the walls – some people like it a lot and are intrigued at how i came to visualize it, others say nothing at all which tells me they don’t like it. The funniest reaction was when my 9 year old nephew came to visit – he walks in, looks around and then with a look of horror turns to my husband and says “HOW could you have let her do this?” =)

            1. Now I have to know – what style of art covers your walls? I do like walls to be interesting. We do not live in bland model homes carefully staged. Life, your experiences, and personality should bloom on your walls. As for me, apparently my sub conscience is very concerned lest visitors not grasp that I love horses. I think I shall have the glass in my front door etched in an equine design to make absolutely sure.

        1. Autumn – I found in Confederacy of Dunces that I had to get attached to the protagonist, deeply flawed and unlikeable as he was. There was no other way to get through the book. 🙂 There was no other character to get attached to. He is God’s worst employee and should not even be allowed near a place of business, but he is a trier. He tries to improve every business he works for and he thinks far outside the box.

          Give the book a chance again. It is a great read. 🙂

          1. Paul, good suggestion – I tried to read in several times in my 20s so I should revisit. Just re read “Grapes of Wrath” which I had also read when younger – with life experiences I had a deeper appreciation. Love Steinbeck.

            1. Autumn – I have taken Hamlet in 6 different classes over the years, both undergrad and grad. With each reading I learned more. Sometimes when we read a good book when we are young we miss some of the depth of the book.

              1. I tend to agree w/your last statement, but I read Catcher in the Rye in HS and remember liking it. Read it in my 30s for book club and threw it across the room. Complete rot. I’m having the same issue with Othello. Haven’t liked it either time I’ve read it; I simply cannot suspend disbelief. The man cannot be a brilliant, worldly military general and simultaneously be that much of a rube.

                1. CCS – you cannot read Othello unless you understand pride and hubris.

                  1. I understand pride and hubris; I don’t understand making significant decisions about one’s spouse’s behavior in the absence of concrete evidence. And I don’t buy the argument that many make that Iago was a trusted advisor, blah blah blah. The man was Othello’s ancient who had been passed over for a leadership position. He was Othello’s errand boy, not his priest. Othello keeps asking for proof, then takes the flimsiest of visuals as justification for murder? It’s a bridge too far. Shakespeare apparently favored Iago anyway; he’s the more interesting character.

                    1. CCS – there is no question that Iago is the more interesting character to play, but I have been watching a series of murder mysteries from England and New Zealand, all true, and sometimes the kicker is very flimsy.

                    2. Cape Cod and Paul, did either of you ever listen to the Hillsdale lectures on Shakespeare? I haven’t, but I have heard some of their professors lecture and they were among the best I have heard. I have listened to other tapes of theirs which were excellent so you both might be interested. Just skip the first tape since that always seems to be a bummer and go right for the meat. I am doing this for selfish reasons. Literature (fiction) is not my passion so if either of you actually listen to it let me know if I should spend the time. 🙂

                    3. Allan, I haven’t heard of those before. Just found them online, thanks to you.
                      Will check them out.

                    4. Allan, Thank you for the suggestion for Hillsdale’s Shakespeare. My husband and I have enjoyed the lectures on the Constitution. I cannot remember the titles at present. My husband listens and shares excerpts with me. They are on my list to listen to fully, though.

      2. Paul, so glad to hear you liked the book! I thought it was slow in the middle, but just enough to give the reader a break from the fast pace of the beginning and end. I loved Confederacy of Dunces, also, but I am the only one among my friends who got the sarcasm. I must admit that Ignatious’ behavior started to grate as the book went on, though. Would have been nice to see what else Toole could have written had he lived.

        1. Cape Cod Skeptic – I usually read a chapter or two, then watch a program or movie, then blog, then recycle. So, I didn’t notice a slow spot, more a period of desperate calculation while he was deciding what to do. I am sorry about Toole committing suicide and I am sure he had more great books in him. I am just glad his mother was willing to flog her dead son’s book for him. It was a book I couldn’t put down, it was like watching a train wreck and you can’t do anything about it or warn anybody. I keep hearing they are making a movie of the book, but then nothing. They really need a young Timothy Sprall to play Ignatius.

          On the other hand, I cannot think of anyone brave enough to make a movie of The Sellout. It is just so anti-PC.

          1. Paul, I Love Sprall, but I picture a young Oliver Platt. Prolly due to book cover art. Cannot picture an adequate replacement. Would love to see who the producers would cast for Pops and Foy Cheshire. I picture Sammy Davis Jr on speed for Pops. The description of his Skinner experiments on his son had me laughing so loudly my family asked me to go read somewhere else. Actually, the whole book was like that….

            1. CCS – I just about lost a mouth full of coffee onto my keyboard when I read the black Assoc.Justice’s comment/question to him from the bench. Once enigma has finished the book, we need our own book club discussion on here. 🙂

              1. You know when you’re reading that part that you’re in for a wild ride! I’m totally in on a discussion of the book. Wonder if Nick got around to reading it.

              2. Paul, glad to see us veering off into literature today. I did not sleep a wink last night – still upset over Vegas. This discussion is both a refreshing and instructive diversion! =)

      3. Oooo! Confederacy of Dunces was outstanding! I will have to check this book out, too, if it has been compared in quality to CofD!

    2. The rumors about him being a “converted Muslim” are because ISIS claimed responsibility. This claim is in doubt, however, because they falsely claimed credit for an attack a few months ago. They might have heard that no motive was immediately available, and joined the politicians making hay. How’s that for a bedfellow?

      The right is not segregating colleges by race. I am gobsmacked that Liberals are utilizing Jim Crow maneuvers. The right is not attacking Free Speech. The right is not pulling people out of their cars because they have the same haircut as David Beckham, and they have suddenly declared it fascist. The right did not Occupy Wallstreet and leave a trail of rape, human refuse, and closed businesses.

      The Klan are a tiny minority who never got any attention until the Liberal media gave them all the national airtime they could have dreamed of. Until then, they were mostly ignored. Conservatives do not identify with the Klan. Nazis were Socialists. They sure do not believe in vigorous individual rights. Conservatives do not identify with Neo Nazis.

      There is no dirth of conservative criticism of the KKK and Neo Nazis. No one needs to tell conservatives that those idiots are wrong. We know. We agree. We are not affiliated with them.

      The Left believes in the erosion of individual rights, and especially Constitutional Rights for individuals for the Greater Good (i.e. Global Progressivism). Constitutional Conservatives believe in robust individual rights. I suppose an extremist form of the right would be anarchists or Preppers living off grid in a bunker. Frankly, a nice bunker is looking attractive based on the past year.

      It is a form of false logic to make a straw man argument that no one has made to knock down. Just because I did not list the other political extremists with whom I take issue does not mean that I don’t believe they exist. They do and are universally condemned. But hard Left extremists are not recognized universally as a danger. They are praised and excused in the media and by politicians. We don’t need to have a national conversation about the Neo Nazis because I think we’re all on the same page. They are abhorrent.

      But we do need to have a national discussion about hard Left extremism, and its impact on higher learning.

      1. I could argue tit for tat but that will get us nowhere. One area I would disagree with you strenuously is that Neo-Nazis are “universally condemned” on the right. They are normalized, their tweets and memes are regularly retweeted by members of the Administration and first family and they are constantly catered to in rallies and tweets.

        1. Except that they aren’t. However, Antifa and far left violence is normalized by the DNC – the Clinton campaign even hired these people to cause violence.

            1. Don’t see Jones’s followers here condemning their hero for saying the shooting was a “false flag”.

              1. Frankly,
                I do not think most people here consider themselves “followers” of Alex Jones.

                  1. I don’t follow Alex Jones, but I do like Paul Joseph Watson.
                    No conspiracy theories in this video, but there is a lot of calling out of the idiocy of the leftist’s response (e.g., white supremacy, gun control, silencers, etc.).
                    Unsurprisingly, he shows more compassion than the subject of this blog post.

                    (Warning: NSFW)

                    1. Glad you liked it, Allan! I think PJW speaks truth to power.
                      He’s got a great vid on the toxicity of pop culture.

            2. Enigma,
              What about this? From the NY Post:

              “A Democratic operative working to support Hillary Clinton’s campaign was canned Tuesday after an undercover video emerged showing him bragging about hiring homeless people and the mentally ill to disrupt Donald Trump’s rallies.

              Foval’s paid agitators — who also included union members — were behind a violent protest in Chicago in March that forced Trump to cancel a rally.

              “It’s a matter of showing up, to want to get into the rally, in a Planned Parenthood T-shirt. Or, ‘Trump is a Nazi,’ you know. You can message to draw them out, and draw them to punch you.”

              Foval outlined his ties to the DNC and Clinton campaign.

              “We are contracted directly with the DNC and the campaign both. I answer to the head of special events for the DNC and the head of special events and political for the campaign,” he said.

              “The campaign pays DNC, DNC pays Democracy Partners, Democracy Partners pays the Foval Group, the Foval Group goes and executes the [expletive] on the ground.”

              Foval goes on to say that, “Over the last 20 years. I’ve paid off a few homeless guys to do some crazy stuff, and I’ve also taken them for dinner and I’ve also made sure they had a hotel and a shower and I’ve put them in a program. I’ve done that.”

              http://nypost.com/2016/10/18/trump-rally-disrupter-was-once-on-clinton-campaigns-payroll/

              Yes, the video comes from Project Veritas, so take it with a grain of salt. Consider, though, that Foval was fired and he did not deny that he had hired people to disrupt rallies. I had not heard about this until today when I looked up Andrew’s claims.

              1. Andrew claims “the Clinton campaign” paid these people which is not true and no one is claiming the campaign coordinated any events. Project Veritas has selectively edited videos in the past. I’ll accept the gentleman was fired by the organization he worked for as happens in campaigns all the time when you become a distraction. Without further documentation, I’m not inclined to see much here.

                1. “Project Veritas has selectively edited videos in the past.”

                  What a crock. Project Veritas has to edit videos because they are so long. This was the claim of the left when Veritas released its first tape. The left said it was selective because it was a one time event. Veritas responded with another tape showing it happened elsewhere as well to which the left responded that those were different circumstances. Veritas kept releasing different tapes that were done all over the country and proved their case, but the left instead of correcting their problems just makes up stories just like the story made up above.

                  1. Who should I believe, you or the dozens of news sources providing examples of their deceit? I am not familiar with all of their videos but I am with the way they portrayed ACORN. We’ll see how all the lawsuits turn out? How many times has James O’Keefe been arrested for his illegal activities, how many times has he plead guilty. I suspect you’ll believe anything that reinforces your point of view?

                    1. enigma – has he been arrested to doctoring tapes? No, He usually submits the edit tape for time and then leaves the full tape on his page for those who have to time to fast forward through coffee breaks, bathroom breaks, etc. I have watched a couple of full tapes, including ones of ACORN and it takes time. The edited version cuts to the good stuff.

                      You are probably aware that 60 Minutes edits it tapes before it airs them? The delete anything that doesn’t fit the story they are trying to tell. However, they don’t give you the raw footage, only the edited footage.

                    2. enigma – the complete tapes unedited tapes were always uploaded to his site at the same time. You could have the highlight reel (shorter version) or wade through two hours of the interview. Your choice. However, it was all there.

                    3. enigma – if PP was suggesting (and I watched those videos) that they were profiting from selling fetuses, then it is on PP. I saw/heard them do it. Now, the fact that they called the fee for it something else was just a ruse to CYA because it is illegal. It would be like I sold you oxycodone, but listed it as aspirin. Does it mean I sold you a controlled substance or OTC med?

                      Margaret Sanger started Planned Parenthood because there were too many black children. Family planning would stop that. PP is NOT the friend of the black community, it is the enemy and it has been since its inception. For blacks, PP is indefensible.

                    4. Much if not most of what PP does is related to prenatal planning, birth control, and well-mother care. Abortion is a small part of what they do. We’re arguing something for which there are dozens of news sources supporting both sides, some not at all concerned with facts. The politicians wanting to close down PP and take away all that they do are not the friend of women in general or the black community in particular.

                    5. Enigma, your mind is closed shut. I think O’Keefe was arrested once and settled with the Senator from Lousiana who he outed. Yes, people in America get arrested, charged, and sentenced for non crimes when they show what the leaders are doing behind the scenes. He didn’t have the money to fight a strong Washington politician that was out to get him because he got her. All he did was video what she was doing when she told the public she was doing something else.

                      You should view the ACORN tapes in the sequence they were released as the left made up more and more excuses, but we already know you have an agenda and truth is not part of it. Maybe you are into all these perverted things. If so I understand why you don’t like James O’Keefe.

                    6. Enigma, almost all your statements exist to promote victimhood or race baiting. Additionally you make claims that one cannot prove untrue because there is no fact that exists. Go ahead and tell us which tapes of O’Keefe were doctored and how. They were accurate and not only occured in one center, but in more than one center and not only in one state, but in more than one state. You are a purveyor of mistruths and racism.

                    7. Provide the paragraph you are talking about. I am not saying O’Keefe is perfect. No one is, but his videos demonstrate problems that exist and just denying the problems doesn’t do the country any good even though it might make you feel better and help you promote your favorite thesis.

                    8. Provide the paragraph and tell us what you mean by doctored? We expect extraneous video to be removed or the length and poor video portions would make the video unreadable. None of the things shown in the video were proven to be false. The original statements by your friends on the left were all proven innaccurate with other videos taken at other venues.

                      What you have to show is that the video wasn’t showing what is being seen and that you cannot do, but you can try. Take one video 5 minute strip and tell us what is false.

                      You can’t. All you can do is provide provide conjecture as to why the sun might not rise tomorrow.

                    9. Which ones were doctored? All of them!

                      Just to be clear; a video of a PP doctor detailing what takes place in the abortion industry was doctored? The actual words out of their mouths on camera were not real?

                    10. The implication that fetuses were sold for profit was certainly false.

                      That doesn’t answer my question. Are you backtracking on the videos being doctored and now claiming what was implied by showing what they actually said to be “doctored”? How do you doctor an implication? Perhaps they were selectively edited, which every producer will have editors do. Weren’t the full videos made available? What possible context could have been omitted from those videos that would have implied something better than what was shown?

                    11. If the shorter version suggested PP was selling fetuses for profit which was untrue would that be misleading?

                      Your logic is mind-boggling. You’re more concerned with the profit implication than the disgusting callousness with which they discussed dismembering human babies for sale? BLM my a$$! How many black babies are terminated each year for or not for profit?

                    12. Enigma writes: “Much if not most of what PP does is related to prenatal planning, birth control, and well-mother care. Abortion is a small part of what they do. ”

                      Planned Parenthood admits to 327,653 abortions. Of course when counting what PP does the patient might have gotten birth control pills, a pap smear, a pregnancy test and then an abortion. That means that if every patient seen by PP had an abortion, abortion would count as only 25% of what PP does and perhaps they add a few more items when tallying their percentages such as counselling.

                    13. Your math does not compute. There is no formula from the information provided that gets to 25%/ Perhaps you should do some research and come back and tell me what Planned Parenthood does and in what percentages. I think you would be more enlightened than I.

                    14. “ Your math does not compute. There is no formula from the information provided that gets to 25%/ Perhaps you should do some research and come back and tell me what Planned Parenthood does and in what percentages. I think you would be more enlightened than I”

                      You read it wrong. Firstly Planned Parenthood admits to 327,653 abortions.

                      You said much of the care was pre natal etc. Firstly most of the clinics don’t offer prenatal care. They also don’t offer mammograms. I’m not sure how much well-mother care they offer or if it is meaningful.

                      What they do offer is counseling (much of it leading to abortion), pregnancy tests, birth control, pap smears and abortion. The 25% number was an example of how foolish the calculations of the 3% number promoted by some actually is.

                      Planned Parenthood is basing its percentages on the total number of individual procedures which is a ridiculous way of providing an answer to the question for every patient coming in for an abortion has more than one procedure diluting that percentage number making the number look small. The number of abortions is huge when we compare it to prenatal services 18,684, or adoption referral 1,880, or mammograms 0. Pregnancy tests can be done at home. Pap tests seem to be their big procedure other than the prescription of birth control and abortion.

                    15. “Here’s some helpful information in your research.”

                      Let’s look at the numbers you provided and skip the fluff:

                      323,999 abortions
                      941,589 emergency contraception kits (sounds like early abortion kits)
                      3,445 vasectomies
                      718 female sterilization procedures
                      270,000 pap smears
                      17,419 pre natal care
                      0 mammograms
                      ? contraception (pills, IUD etc.)

                      Looking at their actual procedures that require physicians one can see the focus of planned parenthood is on pregnancy especailly abortion whether it be the morning after or months later. Pap smears seem to be their secondary focus, but pap smears can be performed by relatively untrained individuals or can even be done by the patient themselves. Contraception is a focus as well, but for the most part it is just given out and if the individual has an obvious problem that individual is taken care of elsewhere.

                    16. “one can see the focus of planned parenthood is on pregnancy” Hence the name, “Planned Parenthood” Without looking back you’re leaving out 1.5 million people provided sex education, saw 2 million reversible contraception patients, provided 4,2 million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted diseases, think you left out much? It’s estimated that 20% of ALL WOMEN have used Planned Parenthood, the vast majority for abortions. BTW, Pap smears are not their secondary focus once you consider what you left out.

                    17. Allan,
                      That’s good data, thank you. At some point I have to wonder if Enigma is not actually concerned about the black population. The horrible things happening within that community have a root in public policy pushed mainly by the Democratic party. He’s got a voice and the energy to fight that but he takes the ignorantly popular path of blaming LEO’s stuck having to police the mess created by the political party blacks largely support. It makes no sense.

                    18. It makes no sense.

                      It makes perfect sense if the point of political advocacy is to maintain a certain image of oneself and people one cares about. If the point is actually to address quality-of-life problems, then, no, it doesn’t make much sense.

                      The post-1930 Democratic Party did not create social problems in urban slums. They’ve just done nothing sensible about them. Their partner in this negligence would be suburban politicians. The actively destructive parties would be judges and (har de har) public interest lawyers, abetted by school administrators and social workers.

                    19. ” At some point I have to wonder if Enigma is not actually concerned about the black population. ”

                      Olly, That latest set of data came from enigma’s own citation. When I discussed race-baiting at the time he called Fred Trump a racist I also used his data and cross checked it with a bunch of different sites and all of them appeared to show enigmas conclusions to be lies or that he didn’t know what he was talking about. Take note, when shown the facts enigma didn’t seem to change his dialogue.

                      I am all for fixing problems, not creating new ones. Our history regarding our treatment of black people has been terrible and 600,000 men lost their lives at least in part over this dispute. Since then we have made remarkable progress in a relatively short period of time. That made the most grievous problems mostly irrelevant so people like enigma had to choose another way to vent hateful thoughts. It appears that Enigma’s preference is race-baiting and victimhood based upon his content. I wish it were otherwise for there are so many ways to correct inequities but for the race-baiters and those pushing victimhood.

                      Prejudice is very close to my own family so I understand how it feels, but the prejudice in my family led to enslavement of some and murder and torture to others. I will skip the prejudice faced when looking for a job or even on the job along with the other type of prejudices that while potentially hurtful don’t affect our ability to survive and prosper. I doubt enigma can demonstrate the same suffering in his family and those near older generations that my family has suffered. His are probably mild in comparison. Mine are more recent and more virulent yet never in our life have we claimed victimhood or promoted race-baiting. Never have I felt hatred towards those that have discriminated against us as long as their intent was to seperate themselves and not kill or enslave us.

                      I care deeply about those black kids that end up being killed or are unable to reach their potential. To date on this blog enigma has demonstrated a paucity of those feelings and it is sickening.

                    20. Woe is Allan, nobody knows the trouble he and his people have seen. I’m the one race baiting when I’ve held my ground and given counter arguments to subjects addressed to me. I’ve been called various names, defended race-based allegations, had my intelligence insulted, I don’t recall being directly called n*gger but others have felt free to use the term with me about “other” black people. People try to tell me what I’ve read, who I follow and what I must believe in order to make themselves feel better. I actually stopped talking to you other than repeating a line from “Dangerous Liasons” because all you contributed was insults and misrepresentations. How is it that I race bait in these conversations other than challenging your sometimes ridiculous views?

                    21. “ Without looking back you’re leaving out 1.5 million people provided sex education”

                      But where action was taken it had to do mostly with abortion or what sounds like ‘early abortion kits’

                      All of the abortions 323,999 and likely most of those 941,589 given what sounds like ‘early abortion kits’ were probably supplied with some sort of sex education as well. Is PP talking about a specific format of sex education? I ask because 1.2 million of their clients received some form of “abortion” and you say they supplied 1.5 million with sex education.

                      Let’s put the numbers together.

                      1.2 Million Abortion and abortion kits
                      1.5 Million sex education

                      Sounds like their primary focus is to prevent children from being born by using “violent” means or some type of education in an almost 50:50 split.

                    22. You are now further manipulating numbers (excluding those you’re still leaving out) to reach some goal that satisfies you. If you go to a doctor and receive sex or any other kind of education is that not an action? Try going to see one for free by saying, “You didn’t really do anything.”
                      I think the 3% figure offered up by Planned Parenthood is misleading and I never offered it up. Your 25% and now 50% figure is just stupid.

                    23. “I’m the one race baiting when I’ve held my ground and given counter arguments to subjects addressed to me. “

                      It sounds like race baiting when one calls another a racist based upon uninformed opinion and when proven wrong on the facts the person goes on and on without ever admitting his errors. To top that off your rhetoric sounds very much like victimhood, due to your selectivity of your facts while refusing to deal with reality.

                      Don’t worry about woe is Allan for Allan looks towards the future and doesn’t spend his life looking back. I worry about the ~7,700 blacks killed and the reasons why while you spend your time unselectively tying the hands of police officers only talking about the 16 unarmed blacks killed by black and white police. That type of reaction causes the death toll to climb. Yes, I worry about each individual and everyone of those 16 and even the guilty ones, but I also worry about police lives along with the potential of them overstepping their bounds. Your focus is to show and prove that this society is terribly racist and while doing so to create a victim class. That is your problem.

                    24. I’ve held my ground and given counter arguments to subjects addressed to me. I

                      You’ve held your ground, but you haven’t offered satisfactory arguments. You’ve offered talking points which function as conversational filler and as distractions. They concern irrelevant matters, contextually unimportant matters, or are just wrong.

                    25. “You are now further manipulating numbers “

                      I’m using your source and your numbers. You are at liberty to add any numbers you wish to show a different picture. Instead it appears as if you are claiming victimhood. Typical.

                      I am not providing any exact percentages because we don’t have all the data to do so. I created potential percentages based upon data that is controlled by Planned Parenthood who has manipulated the data in the past. Take note how so many people thought Planned Parenthood was needed to provide poor people with mammograms when no mammograms are provided. I walked outside a Planned Parenthood site that was soliciting funds and one of the things they said to get a donation was that Planned Parenthood provided mammograms. Not true, but that has been the name of the game. The videos and history of Planned Parenthood sometimes demonstrate a disgusting set of values.

                    26. “Individual clinics sometimes provide more than referrals, arranging for mobile mammography vans.” The clinic you walked by may well have arranged for Mammograms. BTW I did provide additional statistics which you left out. You then discounted visits where, “no action was taken.” Let’s assume you personally have never had a baby, do you have any idea how many well-baby visits are associated with giving birth where no action is taken? Visits which you say don’t count. Especially if there is any hint of complications. Ask a woman!

                    27. ““Individual clinics sometimes provide more than referrals, arranging for mobile mammography vans.” ”

                      How many mammograms were listed in YOUR source?

                      The rest of your comment is a gibberish interpretation of what the discussion is about. Outside of abortion I can’t think of anything that requires a physician’s action that isn’t referred outside of planned parenthood.

                      1.2 Million Abortion and abortion kits
                      1.5 Million sex education

                      Zero or almost zero mammograms handled by Planned Parenthood.

                      I wonder what type of advice Planned Parenthood offered underage girls. Oh, I forgot. We see some of that advice on video where if I remember correctly underage girls seeking abortion are told to lie about their ages.

                    28. Not on email notifications, thanks, though Cape Cod. I just scrolled back to the first visible ‘Reply’ button I saw on the thread. Looks like it showed up.

                    29. That works, also, and at this point, the comments are all stacked anyway.

                    30. I am always amazed (sometimes amused) at all the people willing to tell black people what their problems are.

                      Marriage counseling isn’t my business. That aside, I am telling you what descriptive social statistics say about how the lives of black Americans differ from the majority. How they differ is in exposure to insecurity. Primarily, that refers to freedom from disorder. It can also mean certain vicissitudes of life (about which more anon).

                      Now, you can tell me that isn’t a problem. Where I grew up, the homicide rate outside a certain zone is (as we speak), 2.4 per 100,000. Within that zone, it’s 35 per 100,000. You can tell me that isn’t a problem. The thing is, when you tell Joe Average that that’s not a problem but that the contingent possibility that Louella Washington gets turned away at the polls because she’s too disorganized to acquire a photo ID, Joe Average isn’t going to stand there listening to oracular wisdom about the lives of blacks. Joe Average is going to stop taking you seriously. And I don’t blame him. Everyone here has noticed that you chase cockroaches around the periphery of the room but don’t notice the big pink elephant in the middle of the room.

                    31. Like almost everyone that says there is no voter suppression, you focus on Voter ID without discussing the dozens of accompanying laws that always accompany it, specifically designed to suppress votes. It’s a numbers game, they aren’t trying to stop black voting, just prevent enough votes to change elections.
                      Tell “everyone” hello from me!

                  2. I want equivalent sentencing guidelines and the 181 ratio of crack vs. powdered cocaine to be 1:1.

                    Well, you and Mr. Peabody and Sherman can climb into the WABAC machine, head on back to 1985, and tell Charles Rangel et al that you want crack treated similarly to powdered cocaine. They were promoting stiffer penalties because crack is more addictive, not because they wanted to screw blacks.

                    The New York Penal Law has a list of street drugs and pre-cursors as long as your arm and lists amounts of each which determine the degree of the crime in contingent circumstances. How many of these ranges have you reviewed to see that they’re properly calibrated?

                2. enigma,
                  Of all the healthcare options available to the black community, why in the world would they put their trust in an organization whose founder said:

                  We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population,” she said, “if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.

                  Would you defend them if they wore a police uniform and badge? Would that get your attention?

                  1. By that standard, do you know how many organizations I would have to lose faith in? The Presidency, The US Senate, House of Representatives, Governors and I’m not talking about 1776 but today.
                    Here’s an oldie but a goodie from the past. Please challenge me to come up with a recent quote? I’d be happy to.

                    We have never dreamt of incorporating into our Union any but the Caucasian race—the free white race. To incorporate Mexico, would be the very first instance of the kind, of incorporating an Indian race; for more than half of the Mexicans are Indians, and the other is composed chiefly of mixed tribes. I protest against such a union as that! Ours, sir, is the Government of a white race…. We are anxious to force free government on all; and I see that it has been urged … that it is the mission of this country to spread civil and religious liberty over all the world, and especially over this continent. It is a great mistake

                    Sen. John C. Calhoun – SC

                    1. By that standard,

                      You didn’t apply that standard. You supplied an antique quotation from Calhoun speaking of the boundaries of citizenship.

                    2. I could have quoted from anywhere (I just happened to like that particular quote). He was a US Senator and in some circles credited for starting the Civil War. I could have quoted many of the founding fathers and people from every branch of government. Test me on this, dare me!

                    3. By that standard, do you know how many organizations I would have to lose faith in?

                      While your focus is on symptoms you fail to get to the root of the problem. You don’t have the intellectual courage to admit how places like PP are enabling the extermination of black babies and I have yet to see you reject the public policies that encourage single parent households, welfare, etc. You never call out the black on black crime as if it doesn’t exist. Quote away, try Sharpton or Jackson or any of the race hustlers that are more than happy to distract you from the root of the problem.

                    4. I do reject public policies that encourage single parent households; mass incarceration, police shootings, stop & frisk, disproportionate sentencing for crack vs. powdered cocaine and voter suppression to name a few.

                    5. and in some circles credited for starting the Civil War. I

                      He died a decade prior to the start of the Civil War. His last act as a legislator was a piece of compromise legislation to keep the peace between north and South.

                    6. I could have quoted many of the founding fathers and people from every branch of government. Test me on this, dare me!

                      Wouldn’t have mattered. Every polity has its boundaries. Not every society kills its children in vitro.

                    7. Enigma,
                      I sense that your heart is right but you are only focusing on the multitude of symptoms while ignoring the disease.

                      single parent households; mass incarceration, police shootings, stop & frisk, disproportionate sentencing for crack vs. powdered cocaine and voter suppression to name a few.

                      Free will, personal responsibility; we all have a choice to work to rise above our current situations. We might find ourselves to be victims for one reason or another, but that shouldn’t define who we are. If we should reject anything, it should be public policy that encourages people to remain a victim rather than provide them a path out of their perceived victim status. Encouraging self-reliance moves people away from a reliance on the state.

                    8. Like when Trump says, “They want everything given to them.” You are incorrect. All the things I spoke of are not asking for reliance on the state but removal of state imposed barriers. All I ask for is a level playing field.

                    9. No other industrialized society imprisons the percentage of it’s population that we do eithe

                      About 60% of those convicted in criminal proceedings in this country are sentenced to alternatives-to-incarceration or to time served in county jails. Of the 40% actually remanded to state prisons, the mean sentence actually served is 30 months.

                      The notion that the administration of justice is draconian in this country is a nonsense meme promoted by cretins in sociology faculties and advocacy outfits like the Vera Institute and the Brennan Center. When someone objects to ‘mass incarceration’ their real objection is to ‘any incarceration’. Normal people want the criminal justice system to punish. Progressives see the criminal justice system as a conduit to a social work and therapy nexus manned by people such as themselves.

                    10. All the things I spoke of are not asking for reliance on the state but removal of state imposed barriers. All I ask for is a level playing field.

                      Nobody’s imposing barriers on blacks. In select realms (college admissions, civil service recruitment), they’re imposing barriers on others in order to grant patronage to blacks and in others (schools) slacking off on disciplinary standards which allows blacks to harass others.

                    11. That’s pure ignorance (in the nicest literal sense of the word). Everything I mentioned is a true thing and are barriers. Affirmative Action in school admissions makes all minorities fight for a sliver of the pie while white people get legacy admissions to the schools only they used to be able to originally attend. It’s a lack of knowledge to think of black students as getting a free pass instead of what has become a school to prison pipeline with resource officers ready to arrest them for as little as allegedly stealing a carton of free milk. (Go ahead Allan, ask me to prove an example?)

                    12. All the things I spoke of are not asking for reliance on the state but removal of state imposed barriers. All I ask for is a level playing field.

                      Nonsense. You’re not asking for a level playing field, you’re asking for an equal outcome regardless of talent and effort. Our game of life is played on more than one level playing field. People need to make a choice of being mired in the field they’re on or take the personal responsibility to find a way to rise to the next level. Is it possible? Hell yeah. If those barriers were truly limiting, then no one in the black community would ever be able to succeed.

                    13. Look at the things I asked for. Please specify where I ask for an equal outcome or anything unreasonable. Perhaps it’s you demanding you retain your privilege?

                    14. That’s pure ignorance (in the nicest literal sense of the word). Everything I mentioned is a true thing and are barriers. Affirmative Action in school admissions makes all minorities fight for a sliver of the pie while white people get legacy admissions to the schools only they used to be able to originally attend.

                      What are you talking about? Legacy admissions are consequential only regarding private research universities and private colleges with a certain amount of cachet. The former encompass about 8% of all of those enrolled in baccalaureate-granting institutions and the latter encompass maybe 3%.

                      A faculty member of my acquaintance offered a report to a general faculty meeting some years ago (in her capacity as chairman of the relevant faculty committee) regarding the prevalence of legacy admissions and the like among the incoming class at her institution. This is an institution which builds relationships with its alumni like no other. The gross number of legacy admissions there amounted to about 8% of a typical incoming class. The net is indubitably smaller than that because many legacy admissions meet the ordinary grades-and-test-scores screen a school employs. You’re looking a low-single-digit share of incoming classes benefiting from legacy preferences at institutions which encompass a low-double-digit share of the total population at baccalauretate- granting institutions. Do the math: (0.11 x 0.4) = 0.44% of the total student body. Legacy preferences are not contextually consequential.

                      Total fall enrollment at bacclaureate-granting institutions in 1970 was 6.2 million. That in 2014 was 12.4 million. Keep in mind that annual birth cohorts during the post war period have seen no secular increase in size. They;ve bounced around a set point of about 3.9 million. Yet, the population enrolling in college every year has doubled. Half the people enrolling in college were borne and sired of parents who were not enrolled anywhere, much less at the institutions where they themselves are now enrolled.

                    15. What percentage of Affirmative Action candidates are admitted? Most of whom have better grades than Becky with the good hair that wanted admission into the University of Texas. Wouldn’t you agree that over 95% of legacy admissions to those schools are white? Yet you think nothing of it. The false suggestion that black or other minority students have an edge is false and where protections have been removed, admissions have declined.

                    16. It’s a lack of knowledge to think of black students as getting a free pass instead of what has become a school to prison pipeline with resource officers ready to arrest them for as little as allegedly stealing a carton of free milk. (Go ahead Allan, ask me to prove an example?)

                      Total fall enrollment at 4 year colleges is as we speak 13.4 million. Of these 14% are black. That’s precisely the share of the population between 20 and 25 which is black. That does not seem out of the ordinary except for one thing: median standardized test scores for blacks are typically about 0.9 standard deviations below those of the general population. As long as admissions are competitive, you would not expect 14% of fall enrollment to be black. You’d expect the figure to be about 7% given the score differential on college boards, achievement tests, and the like. The figure is 14% because a large mulligan has been granted to black applicants.

                    17. Perhaps it’s you demanding you retain your privilege?

                      And there you have it; you assume I’m privileged thus making you a victim. My only privilege is to live in a country that provides me the freedom to pursue whatever happiness my skills, abilities and motivation allow. And yes, I am demanding to retain that privilege.

                      What is pathetic is while you are looking for a level playing field for the consequences of poor choices (based on your recent posts) within a particular culture, others are looking for opportunities to move to a better playing field. The barriers you perceive are a conditioned response to policies that encourage people to stay on the victim playing field. The choice is to accept being a victim or use your free will and take ownership of your life. I’ve been to your blog and it’s clear your identity is tied to being a victim. What a shame.

                    18. Olly: “Retain my privilege.”

                      You live in bizarro world!”

                      That response by enigma to Olly who very intelligently has given enigma every benefit of the doubt is nutso. All Olly asks for is to “live in a country that provides me the freedom to pursue whatever happiness my skills, abilities and motivation allow”

                      It sounds like enigma thinks it unfair for a white person to retain the priviledge of ‘the freedom to pursue’.

                    19. “Retain my privilege.” You live in bizarro world!

                      From your victim worldview, that is probably the most honest thing you’ve said in this entire thread.

                    20. enigma – for one, you get to grow remarkable afros (I have always wanted one, but I don’t think it would look good in blond). two, you are better jive dancers. three, you are the creators of jazz and have some of the best jazz musicians. Your athletes dominate two professional sports and college teams, three if you include track and field. You can wear cornrows without looking silly, sometimes very sexy. Need I go on?

                    21. I once had one of those Afro’s, they require more care than you might think but once was an excuse to ask girls to plait or braid your hair.
                      The dancing part is part myth but a function or more practice I think.
                      I think much of the sports is a product of emphasis and again practice. Maybe even desperation for some looking to improve their lives. Middle-class and upper income black youth today don’t seem to have the same drive for sports.
                      Bo Derek wore cornrows and was credited for inventing them?

                    22. enigma – I know you have to have the special comb for the afro, but it does look cool. 🙂 But I am damned if I know how you get a football helmet on over one like CK’s.

                      I have watched Ken Burns series on Jazz several times since I love jazz from all periods and the black boys and girls at the Savoy were much better than the white kids. Not that the white kids weren’t good, they were just on another level.

                      BTW, I thought the Savoy was such an unusual place. Completely integrated. No violence. Great music. Great dancing. Rotating bands. Would have loved to have seen it in its heyday.

                    23. Paul, have you watched Burn’s documentary on Jack Johnson? Incredible. There are no words.

                    24. CCS – haven’t seen that one. Working my way through the one on the Vietnam War right now.

                    25. I’m doing the same with the Vietnam documentary….taking it in stages, it’s hard to handle that much rage every night. My older son is a Ken Burns fan of the highest order, so we have watched quite a few of his films. The one on Jackson is really quite good, but also difficult to stomach.

                    26. CCS – I have done Jazz (which is excellent), Prohibition (excellent), Civil War (needs to change the music, kept falling asleep) and a couple others. The Vietnam War is probably the most political of the films he has done, although he seems to be laying it out fairly so far. I am only 2 episodes in. I will look for the Jackson one (that is a fascinating story of what racism can do to us). If you are looking for another great documentary, try The Boys of ’36. About the sculls team sent to the Berlin Olympics from Udub.

                    27. I’ve watched about half of Prohibition and all of Civil War, multiple times. Shelby Foote was a national treasure. The film on the National Parks is fabulous, with breathtaking video. The boxers name is Johnson, I muffed that in last night’s late post.

                    28. CCS – yes, he was convicted of white slavery or something. Took a white woman across state lines for immoral purposes. Think he was a bare-knuckle boxer, back in the days when a match could go 100 rounds. I fought as an AAU boxer and could barely get through three rounds without feeling like a whipped puppy. 😉

                    29. enigma,
                      Olly said: “My only privilege is to live in a country that provides me the freedom to pursue whatever happiness my skills, abilities and motivation allow. And yes, I am demanding to retain that privilege.”

                      Olly is demanding to live in a country that provides freedom such that its citizenry can live self-actualized lives, pursuing whatever happiness their skills, abilities, and motivations allow. This is your privilege, too. And, you should be able to retain it, as well. Why is that bizarro?

                    30. The bizarro part is the insistence that it is black people who have the privilege and white people by necessity are the hapless victims. That is the bizarro part.

                    31. enigma,
                      “Out of curiosity, name the ways black privilege manifests itself, lest I miss all the ways I have the edge over disadvantaged white people?”

                      You are privileged. You are obviously well-educated–something disadvantaged whites (and disadvantaged people of any color) are not. You probably came from a family who supported your dreams and helped to shape your character such that you could have a chance at achieving them–something that disadvantaged whites (and disadvantaged people of any color) often do not have. I could go on but I am about to be interrupted by my kids. 🙂

                    32. Kids will do that, for me it’s grandchildren but I get to give them back when I’m done. I should have phrased the question differently, I meant to ask how black people generally are privileged over white people which is what Olly and Allan seem to be insisting.
                      I believe I personally have a good education, augmented by continued learning after college. I had a mother who supported me (my stepfather died while I was a junior in High School of cancer). I benefitted greatly from a basketball scholarship which allowed me to attend college and travel to campuses across the South generally and a few other locations.
                      There have always been individual exceptions, we even had a black President. The inherent disadvantages I mentioned earlier are still real despite the denials of those who cannot/will not see.

                    33. The bizarro part is the insistence that it is black people who have the privilege and white people by necessity are the hapless victims. That is the bizarro part.

                      WOW! Where did you come up with that from what I stated? It’s now obvious to me that you have created the color barriers you want removed. Congratulations! Until you recognize who it is that has chained you to that dogma then nothing will change for you.

                    34. I want to know how you all reply to a conversation chain where there is no visible “Reply” button?

                    35. Tbob, do you get email notifications when people respond to the thread? If so, each comment has a reply button you can use.

                    36. And the only reason why is that I wanted to share a favorite old Muddy Waters video from the Checkerboard Lounge in Chicago where a very young Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones showed up and joined him on stage. Mick Jagger and the Stones, etc all studied the great old jazz and blues guys like Muddy Waters. Where do you think Jagger got all his inspiration and moves? From studying all the great old black musicians and artists. Mick comes on stage about 5:30.

                    37. Well who knows where this comment will end up, but thanks Cape Cod, I saw your reply and I don’t get email notices, so I just hit the first ‘Reply’ I see and it is a big surprise where it ends up! I had read Paul’s comments to Enigma and was reminded me of one of my favorite old videos that shows it is the great old black musicians that gave other great acts, like the Stones, their inspiration. Mick Jagger copied them all.

                    38. enigma,
                      Got the kids to bed, but since I’ve been burning the candle at both ends, I needed to go to bed, too!

                      “I meant to ask how black people generally are privileged over white people”
                      “the insistence that it is black people who have the privilege and white people by necessity are the hapless victims. ”

                      I have never seen in Olly’s or Allan’s posts that they think white people are hapless victims and black people are the one’s with privilege. You guys are talking past one another.

                      They both look to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as being the guideposts for everyone, no matter your background. When people seem to be disadvantaged, they look to the person’s circumstances, environment, individual choices and the choices of those around them that affect the environment.

                      Disadvantaged people of all colors typically have environments that are not conducive for success. Poor/disadvantaged kids are more likely to experience: violence in the home, home life instability (divorce, single parent, multiple boyfriends/girlfriends, lots of moving), abuse of all kinds (emotional, verbal, etc.), poor dietary habits (this affects how nourished the brain is, affecting ease of learning and impulse control), ineffective parenting skills, lack of a consistent (if any) emphasis on the importance of education and studying, exposure to more toxins (smoking, drugs, lead paint in older homes, etc.). All this stress affects children’s attachment (which affects later attachment), it affects their brains’ executive function (which affects planning, control, etc), it affects inflammation levels in their bodies. Single parenthood is heavily associated with all these stressors.

                      66% of black kids live in single parent families, compared to 25% of non-Hispanic whites. (http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by#detailed/1/any/false/573,869,36,868,867/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/432,431)

                      That, all by itself, “privileges” whites over blacks. Kids in single parent families are more likely to be be poor, experience violence, commit suicide, have lower academic success, commit crimes, and become drug dependent, among other struggles (http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/Building%20a%20Career%20Pipeline%20Documents/Safe_Harbor.pdf). If more black kids are growing up in single-parent families than white kids, then their chances of being disadvantaged are greater. Why is that statistic so high?

                      Those problems have to be changed for there to be change.

                      You and I both grew up in single-parent households. My parents divorced when I was a kid. We were on welfare for a little while. My mom had mental health struggles. I have no idea if you were poor, too, but you and I both worked hard, our families valued education and the continuation of learning, and we were able to find success. How can those strategies and values be instilled in a greater percentage of other (particularly poor) single-parent families?

                      I do not think black people are generally privileged over white people and neither are whites over blacks, as though it is some kind of racial wrestling match. How does such a match improve the country as a whole?

                    39. Your initial premise about the Constitution and Bill of Rights is a bit flawed. Neither acknowledged any rights for black people (and not many for women). The Electoral College was designed to give more voting strength to less populated slave states. Amendments to the Constitution along the way have helped. Acts of Congress over time have helped but I must note were invariably weakened by the Supreme Court which is a trend over history most recently seen in the gutting of the enforcement powers related to the Voting Rights Act. The very next day several states went to work to suppress minority votes including Texas, Alabama and Louisiana.

                    40. I didn’t mead to send at that point.
                      While others here imply I’m asking to be given something. I only ask for a fair playing field. Ending voter suppression, comparable sentencing for crimes, ending of targeting police practices like stop & frisk and justice when police do wrong.
                      I agree that the percentage of single-parent households is too high. I submit this is a fairly recent phenomenon and there are systemic causes that are significant factors (although not the only ones). Others here place the sole blame on lack of morals which is not the case.
                      The comments about the advantages of black people were mostly related to Affirmative Action in college admissions where the reality is that all minorities are forced to compete for a small piece of the pie as opposed to depriving deserving white students of their rightful place. There is no major college I’m aware of (possibly the University of Hawaii?) where minority enrollment exceeds their percentage of the population.
                      I leave you with a quote from Harry T Moore who I suspect you may not have heard of. He was an early civil rights leader who was killed by a bomb placed under his home on Christmas night. In his last letter to the Governor of Florida, he wrote,

                      “We seek no special favors, but certainly have a right to expect justice and equal protection of the laws even for the humblest Negro. Shall we be disappointed again?”

                      This is what I ask as well.

                    41. “We seek no special favors, but certainly have a right to expect justice and equal protection of the laws even for the humblest Negro.”

                      Mr. Harry T Moore has it exactly correct. That is what asking for a level playing field looks like. Not social justice, not whining about white privilege, not affirmative action. Equal protection under the law means EQUAL.

                    42. enigma – exactly where do you feel the law has failed you or blacks in general in the last year? And don’t use the voter suppression crap because I don’t buy it.

                    43. Paul, don’t count on enigma not using the voter suppression argument. He just did.

                    44. You’re halfway there, now all you have to do is acknowledge we haven’t attained equality under the law yet.

                      Good! I’ve never been anything other than halfway there. Equal protection under the law is the only level playing field we should expect. Think scales of justice. The heavy hand of the law tilted the scales against those minority groups and that led the Civil Rights Movement to get that hand off the scales. However, the law has gone too far by tilting it the other way, pandering to those special interest groups not just wanting equal protection, but promising equal outcomes.

                      That’s that other half you keep talking about whether you’ll admit it or not. There is no justice to use the law unequally today to reconcile the use of the law unequally in our history. The law is not supposed to be used as a weapon against our citizens, denying them equal protection to favor one group over another. Isn’t that what the Civil Rights Movement was all about?

                      So equality under the law is already there. What you are unable to admit is how the post-Civil Rights Movement policies have created generations of people wholly dependent upon the state. The Civil Rights Movement took off the chains, but those policies have conditioned those generations that progress will only come by the will of the state. How do I know this? Look at those that do succeed. They aren’t waiting around for the state to “give them theirs.”

                    45. “I meant to ask how black people generally are privileged over white people which is what Olly and Allan seem to be insisting.”

                      Again you seem to be engaging in tribalism and creating score cards for white and black people separating the races and placing them against one another. We have many disadvantaged people of many different colors even if blacks might exist in higher numbers in this group.

                      The billionaire white guy who went to Harvard and got his son into Harvard based upon legacy doesn’t change the disadvantages of that disadvantaged white kid that lives in the ghetto with his black friends. They are all in the same boat, but based upon that tribalistic type of attitude you seem to have, that disadvantaged white child is privileged compared to the black one. That is nonsense.

                      We need not develop social programs based upon race. We need to base such social programs on need. Your children and grandchildren have more advantages than almost any of the disadvantaged children of all colors. In general it is how those children react to their circumstances that will lead to success or lack of success and that is very much controlled by the family. Victimhood should play no part.

                    46. You might be answering some question but not the one I asked. You, in particular, have inferred that black people have an edge on white people due to affirmative action and other programs. Please explain.

                    47. Darren,
                      I had a comment get eaten or something. It only had two links and no cuss words. I hope you can find it. I neglected to save it before trying to post. 🙁

                    48. “ You might be answering some question but not the one I asked.”

                      Enigma, I wasn’t intent upon answering a question that divides people by race while offering no solutions which seems to be the direction you are heading now and before.

                      “ You, in particular, have inferred that black people have an edge on white people…”

                      Simply a ridiculous assertion. I don’t separate people by race. I leave that up to you and that is why I said: “We need not develop social programs based upon race. We need to base such social programs on need.” I don’t think there is anything wrong with that statement.

                    49. Darren,
                      My 9:30-ish am comment is awaiting moderation for some inexplicable reason. I took out the links and tried to re-post it, and it has been eaten again! No expletives of any kind, too. If you could give the spam filter the Heimlich to free my post, it would be most appreciated! 🙂

                    50. “Your initial premise about the Constitution and Bill of Rights is a bit flawed. Neither acknowledged any rights for black people (and not many for women). “

                      Enigma, You live in the past. This country made a bad mistake and 600,000 youths paid for that mistake with their lives and since then the Constitution with its amendments truly makes all persons equal under the law. The nation has even gone further and passed needed Civil Rights legislation to speed things along and placed billions into social programs to do the same. Additionally the nation has been one of those nations to promote an end to slavery that is still seen around the globe.

                      Yet, you want to blame the mistakes of the 16th and 17th century on children being born in the 21st century. These children have no relationship of those that lived so long ago many of which lost their lives ending slavery and discrimination.

                      Many of the problems faced by black children are seen in the lower classes in Britain that is predominantly white. Though payments of gold to soothe one’s ancient guilt might satisfy the giver, one always has to consider whether that has satisfied the needs to whom that gold was given. Based upon the money and effort spent we should not be seeing a backward movement, but we are. That means there are other things having more of an impact than centuries old grief. Those are the things that need to be managed and they do not coincide with your thinking process.

                      None of what I say is racist. Quite the opposite, I am deeply concerned for all people no matter their color so I look for solutions to move people out of the ghetto instead of solutions that act as bandaids so that access beneath grows and becomes more dangerous.

                      I would like to hear positive things from you that you feel should be done to help your community and hopefully to help someone else’s community as well. That is the discussion we should be having.

                    51. I don’t live in the past, but to be unaware of it is to be doomed to repeat those mistakes. Amendments and Congressional action have made things a lot better. Other actions including several Supreme Court decisions have done harm. The most recent being the gutting of the Voting Rights Act has resulted in the implementation of Unconstitutional laws (as determined by Federal Courts) that ensured there isn’t a level playing field. That’s still all I’m asking for.

                    52. Enigma writes: “I don’t live in the past, but to be unaware of it is to be doomed to repeat those mistakes.”

                      One can be very aware of the past without continuing to live it as you appear to be doing

                      Voting? Let’s do what is the most secure for our voting system. Pre-registration, voter ID and penalizing abusers with jail terms. Make sure that write-in ballots are legal. Offer free ID to those who don’t have it and can’t afford it and make pre-registration easy but secure.

                      I think voting is a privilege and just like people must present an ID to get on a plane there is no reason the same shouldn’t occur at the ballot box. No one should be denied the right to vote and the community should stand up and help others get to the precinct. Anyone denied a vote should immediately be permitted to vote where the vote is withheld until proven to be legitimate.

                      Many people of all colors do not vote because of the minor inconvenience. No matter what color they are, if a minor inconvenience keeps them from voting then perhaps not having their vote count is appropriate.

                    53. enigma,
                      “The inherent disadvantages I mentioned earlier are still real despite the denials of those who cannot/will not see.”

                      I am not sure what ‘inherent disadvantages’ you mean. I’ve tried reading through the posts, but I am having trouble finding exactly what you’re referring to.

                      “I do reject public policies that encourage single parent households; mass incarceration, police shootings, stop & frisk, disproportionate sentencing for crack vs. powdered cocaine and voter suppression to name a few.”

                      Are those the ‘inherent disadvantages’ you mean or something else I’ve missed?

                      Also, regarding the Bill of Rights and “Neither acknowledged any rights for black people (and not many for women).”

                      There is no reason to do so. You are missing the forest for the trees. These rights are universal to ALL people, no matter the race or gender. (I would even argue they are universal beyond the boundaries of our country.)

                      The Constitution organizes a balanced system of power for fair governance, with no branch having (or supposed to have) more power than the other. Some of the details required amending (e.g., voting issues). The Founders took into consideration the need for likely amendment when drafting the Constitution and made provisions for the people to be able to do so when necessary.

                      Regarding Affirmative Action:
                      “Affirmative Action in school admissions makes all minorities fight for a sliver of the pie while white people get legacy admissions to the schools only they used to be able to originally attend”

                      “Affirmative Action in college admissions where the reality is that all minorities are forced to compete for a small piece of the pie as opposed to depriving deserving white students of their rightful place.”

                      For one, affirmative action should not occur where it is not needed. My state alma mater does not have legacy admissions, and, they did not discriminate–having a Chinese student, for instance, even back in the late 1800s). Ivy League and other private schools, apparently, are the problem with legacy admissions and discrimination.

                      I do not think Olly or Allan or SOT/DDS thinks whites are having their “rightful place” infringed upon. That is an unfair assumption/insinuation that they are white supremacists. As far as I can tell, they want people to get into college on merit alone (and no legacy admissions for anyone either), with financial aid (grants/scholarships, etc) for those demonstrating need. If that means the entire college is filled with one particular group, than those who did not get in on merit had better step up their game.

                      ““We seek no special favors, but certainly have a right to expect justice and equal protection of the laws even for the humblest Negro. Shall we be disappointed again?”
                      This is what I ask as well.”

                      That’s a great quote! No special favors, expectation of justice, and equal protection of the laws–excellent! Me, too! Therefore, I do not understand your support of the special favor of Affirmative Action.

                    54. The “inherent disadvantages” I referred to were the ones you inquired about.

                      You do know when the Constitution was ratified, slavery continued to exist for another 90 years or so. The original constitution contained a clause mandating the return of slaves if they escaped from one state to another. The part that counts black people as 3/5th’s of a person is misleading in that it only determined how many votes white people got to elect Congress members. Black people didn’t even have 3/5th’s of the rights of white people, they had none. Poll taxes weren’t eliminated until the 24th Amendment. The Voting Rights Act was just gutted and voter suppression is being advanced with a vengeance. Mass incarceration is being reinstated as we speak by Jeff Sessions. Differences in sentencing for similar crimes is still the legal standard for cocaine use. All I ask is equal which does not yet exist.
                      Affirmative Action was designed as a remedy for past abuse. If it were not necessary, I wouldn’t mind it fading away. It still pits minorities against minorities for a sliver of the whole pie. Equality has not yet arrived.

                    55. “The “inherent disadvantages” I referred to were the ones you inquired about.”

                      You then spend half of the post looking back to the 17th century through to ancient history and then you create an argument of voter suppression which isn’t a valid argument. If anything our voting process is being gamed.

                      Sentencing for crimes is something that should be discussed, but we put people away to stop criminal activity. I would like the dealers all incarcerated. Then again cocaine and things of that nature cost a lot of money. I wonder where the money comes from.

                    56. Forgive me, Allan. In the conversation I was having with Prarie Rose, we were discussing whether the Constitution and Bill of Rights covered everyone. If you can’t keep up with other people’s conversations, maybe you should stay on the sidelines?

                    57. “Forgive me, Allan.”

                      No, you were looking backward. You want to think you were looking forward and simply discussing the law. You weren’t.

                    58. “I was describing the US Constitution in response to a claim”

                      Quote the claim including the context and how your repetition cleared up any misconceptions the writer might have had.

                    59. “Always demanding I find something for you! Because it wasn’t long ago I’ll do it this once. It won’t be a habit.”

                      No. I was just demonstrating that what you were saying was nothing more than Bullsh!t and you have proven it.

                    60. “You know I did send it already. I told you reading wasn’t your forte.”

                      An earlier posting said you weren’t going to do it. Your memory is severely impaired. That is what happens when one relies too much on dishonest facts.

                    61. I said I was going to do it this once but don’t make it a habit. Here’s the exact quote. “Always demanding I find something for you! Because it wasn’t long ago I’ll do it this once. It won’t be a habit.”

                      READ!!!!

                    62. “I said I was going to do it this once but don’t make it a habit”

                      I’ve gone through the emails and it seems you are correct, but the same email was sent out more than once and doesn’t appear on the blog. Then again I note a lot of emails don’t appear on the blog so in this instance, I apologize.

                      However, in dealing with the context of your arguments I stand firm.

                      I have no problem being corrected and apologizing. You should learn the same.

                    63. If and when I am factually corrected by you, I’ll happily apologize. Of course, you thinking you are right isn’t necessarily the same as being right. Apology accepted.

                    64. “If and when I am factually corrected by you, I’ll happily apologize.”

                      I don’t think that is the case and you have made plenty errors in your disputes with other people. I think you are being a bit disingenuous.

                    65. You may disagree with much (everything) that I say. Point out any factual errors and I’ll acknowledge them and apologize if that will make you feel better.

                    66. “Point out any factual errors and I’ll acknowledge them ”

                      I have and you haven’t.

                    67. The first paragraph was me, all else was Prairie Rose

                      Also, regarding the Bill of Rights and “Neither acknowledged any rights for black people (and not many for women).”

                      There is no reason to do so. You are missing the forest for the trees. These rights are universal to ALL people, no matter the race or gender. (I would even argue they are universal beyond the boundaries of our country.)
                      The Constitution organizes a balanced system of power for fair governance, with no branch having (or supposed to have) more power than the other. Some of the details required amending (e.g., voting issues). The Founders took into consideration the need for likely amendment when drafting the Constitution and made provisions for the people to be able to do so when necessary.

                    68. “ The “inherent disadvantages” I referred to “ post at 4:38 was the one I replied to with a quote from what was written. I don’t have the slightest idea of what you are trying to prove in this latest post, but being unclear might an advantage to being totally wrong.

                      If you are trying to show how short your missive was on looking backward it appears you are not telling the truth because you are posting only a portion of what you wrote on ancient history. If you are telling me the last paragraph was by Prairie Rose I’ll accept that but then you didn’t have to spend so much time rewriting ancient history and looking in a backward direction.

                    69. ““Rewriting ancient history.” Is there a part I got wrong?”

                      No. I told you that you spent too much time looking back and that about half of your reply was to reiterate ancient history demonstrating victimhood. Apparently, you wanted to make it appear that you didn’t spend that much time looking back so you only quoted a small portion of your remarks to be compared with a larger portion of Prairie Rose’s. It doesn’t work because your words are in black and white. Victimhood also doesn’t work. Looking backward doesn’t work.

                      Time to quit the cr@p and look in a forward direction. I hope you learn how because I think you are a decent person and you have children and grandchildren.

                    70. “than those who did not get in on merit had better step up their game.”

                      Dang it! It should be “then”.

                    71. You’re halfway there, now all you have to do is acknowledge we haven’t attained equality under the law yet.

                      The law is not a problem, except to the extent that any human artifact has its problems. Neither is ‘inequality’ a problem, except to the degree to which institutions manned by human beings aren’t going to treat people as if they were interchangeable widgets. ‘Inequality’ in general is not a problem. All societies more complicated than an agriculture village will have enough division of labor to generate social strata. Even the village will have its leaders and followers.

                      The problem blacks face is a deficit of security. That can be addressed, but Black Lives Matter &c are enemies of addressing that.

                    72. “The problem blacks face is a deficit of security. That can be addressed, but Black Lives Matter &c are enemies of addressing that.”

                      Excellent.

                    73. The Voting Rights Act was just gutted and voter suppression is being advanced with a vengeance. Mass incarceration is being reinstated as we speak by Jeff Sessions.

                      There is no ‘gutting’ and no ‘voter suppression’. Jeff Sessons cannot ‘re-instate’ anything. There is nothing to ‘re-instate’. Levels of incarceration (which are legitimate) haven’t fluctuated much in the last decade. The federal Attorney-General does not write federal sentencing guidelines, federal penal code provisions, or state penal code provisions. While we’re at it, 89% of all prisoners are to be found in state prisons. Jeff Sessions is not the public prosecutor in Indianapolis.

                    74. Jeff Sessions can dictate prosecutorial guidelines (which he has) and request going for maximum sentences (which he has). I challenge you to Google, Jeff Sessions, and Mass Incarceration and see what you find. Certainly, some of what you find may be discounted. How much are you willing to ignore.

                    75. “Jeff Sessions can dictate prosecutorial guidelines”

                      What you seem to forget enigma is that in the settlement many of the crimes committed were settled at a lower level. When Obama released a lot of those inmates he released a lot of violent people whose original charge involved violence that was lowered to a nonviolent category. Maybe you would prefer if no charges are reduced. If that were done you would see a lot more people in jail for a lot longer.

                    76. You provided an article without making mention of what the most important part of the article was so I will choose my own right at the beginning of the article.

                      “In a memo released Friday, Sessions instructed federal prosecutors nationwide to seek the strongest possible charges and sentences against defendants they target. ”

                      I find nothing wrong with that because violent people were released by Obama because they agreed to settle for a lower charge. If a person is guilty of armed robbery I don’t think his charge should be reduced in a settlement. That goes for any person regardless of color.

                    77. “Reading with comprehension probably isn’t one of your strengths is it?”

                      Really, maybe you just don’t like the idea of someone who murders being given a jay-walking ticket. It’s not a matter of reading comprehension rather your lack of common sense and your apparent focus on being a victim.

                      I thought this statement was exactly what the article should have been cheering for. “In a memo released Friday, Sessions instructed federal prosecutors nationwide to seek the strongest possible charges and sentences against defendants they target. ”

                      I worry about the poor kids caught up in all this and did nothing more than smoke a joint.

                    78. enigma – so you think street corner pharmacists should get a pass? They are the ones dealing the drugs, the poison in the black neighborhoods. They are the ones giving free samples in school to get kids hooked. It is not the larger dealers. And the junkies? Their best chance to clean up is to be arrested and stay away from the junk for a while. Look at what drugs did to some great black jazz players, who were then emulated by white jazz players. Idiots all of them. Several of them died early deaths.

                    79. I said nothing about anyone getting a pass. I want equal enforcement (studies show equivalent drug use regardless of race yet black people make up a disproportionate percentage of arrests). I want equivalent sentencing guidelines and the 18:1 ratio of crack vs. powdered cocaine to be 1:1. Dealers should be arrested and sent to jail. Recreational marijuana use probably doesn’t require that. Allan suggests all these people are violent offenders who plead down and throws in Obama’s name to give that premise more credibility. Most of the rest of the universe knows we’re sending non-violent people to jail, it seems to meet contractual obligations to fill for-profit-prisons.

                    80. “Allan suggests all these people are violent offenders who plead down and throws in Obama’s name to give that premise more credibility. Most of the rest of the universe knows we’re sending non-violent people to jail,’

                      In one of my early remarks, I made it clear that sentencing could be a problem that had to be adjusted. You intentionally forgot that. However, when you talk about releasing criminals for non-violent crimes under Obama you have to be honest and recognize many of them were initially charged with known violent crimes that were permitted to be reduced to a non-violent offense. Obama, therefore sent all too many violent people back onto the streets. It didn’t do a lot of them a favor because I feel certain that a good number of them may have already died from their habits, were killed or put back in jail. You just can’t stand it when people take notice of victimhood and show victimhood for what it is.

                    81. enigma – the whole crack vs powder cocaine problem was at the behest of the black community. The crack was flooding their communities and they wanted to crack down on it. (Pun intended) Whitey wasn’t behind it blacky was. Personally, I think both are insidious, but I have no problem treating them the same, with the same draconian penalties. And enigma, you should be doing everything in your power to get crack out of the black community. Not trying to make the penalties lighter for crack. We just make the penalties for powder the same as crack. Problem solved.

                    82. If the penalties were the same and the powdered cocaine users went to jail at the same rate for the same terms. The uproar in the communities that use powdered cocaine would go berserk.
                      And the assertion that this was the result of black wishes is preposterous on its face. Not that there weren’t black supporters, there were. But what percentage of Congress did they represent and on their own how could they pass a bill? If you think the rest of Congress deferred to the percentage of black politicians that supported it, can you give any other example of a bill driven by black legislators and forced through against the wishes of the mainstream? Many black politicians and leaders were opposed to this as well.

                    83. enigma – the Civil Rights Act was renewed when the Black Caucus screamed rape, so they got enough votes to get it through. So, states like Arizona are still under the federal hammer. You don’t think the Black Caucus has power? Silly you. However, if you think there was a bunch against it, send me the cite. I do not remember it being passed and neither was my drug of choice. Happy to change my mind with better evidence.

                    84. Heres an interesting article that discusses the black support for the bill, often for political reasons. Many people saw it as flawed but needed to be seen as doing something. It singles out Jesse Jackson as being steadfastly against the bill. Others spoke out against specific provisions but ultimately went along. I think it safe to say (as described in the other outline) that the true impact wasn’t felt for years. I don’t understand what the political rationale is for continuing the sentencing disparity.
                      http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2016/02/why_many_black_politicians_backed_the_1994_crime_bill_championed_by_the.html

                    85. enigma – whole-heartedly or half-heartedly, the Black Caucus supported the bill along with major black community leaders across America. Personally, I would not have written the punishments that way, however, no one has been smart enough to elect me to an office.

                      I am not surprised about Jesse Jackson, who we both know has no moral compass, being against the bill. He was just afraid of losing his dealer. As I used to tell my students, the key to good drugs is knowing and trusting your dealer. If he or she is off the street corner, then you are out looking again. And this was a time when they were killing people to take over those street corners.

                      You go after the dealers, you dry up the customer base for a while. In the black community with such a high unemployment rate, becoming a dealer is a good job, or at least a job. You are bringing home money. You go after the customers, you get them to roll on their dealers. There is an almost endless supply of unemployed youth in the black community to draw from for your next dealer, so the supplier is never out of business at that location for long. However, as the youth see their potential as prison fodder for the supplier they are less eager to join up.

                      BTW, thanks for the article. 🙂

                    86. Can’t disagree about the black caucus or Jesse. Even in the ghetto, there is a hierarchy and unfortunately, drug dealers rank high because of perceived power and money… either lasts.

                    87. enigma – as you say there is no who only what, but thanks for the outline. 🙂

                    88. BTW, if there were no “gutting” of the Voting Rights Act, the very next day there wouldn’t have been multiple states immediately implementing new laws they could not have the day before.

                    89. The law has always been the tool of the powerful to remain so.

                      Blacks qua blacks aren’t facing problems derived from esoteric provisions in the tax code or the securities law. Blacks face problems from a deficit of security. A deficit of security is not a problem faced by residents of handsome suburbs and gated communities. It’s faced by quite ordinary people.

                    90. I am always amazed (sometimes amused) at all the people willing to tell black people what their problems are. Suppose you asked a question every now and then? Maybe some insight from the people living the experience might provide valuable input.
                      For all I’m often accused of, I will tell you what policies are and do, I will rail against laws and perceived injustice. I don’t say, “white people are…, white people should… white people do…”

                    91. Jeff Sessions can dictate prosecutorial guidelines (which he has) and request going for maximum sentences (which he has).

                      So what? Sessions prosecutes federal crimes. About 11% of the prison population is ensconced in federal prisons, mostly for drug trafficking. Federal prisons do not hold many people for banal (but anxiety provoking) crimes. They hold people guilty of racketeering and fraud. Blacks qua blacks do not benefit from being lenient with such people.

                    92. BTW, if there were no “gutting” of the Voting Rights Act, the very next day there wouldn’t have been multiple states immediately implementing new laws they could not have the day before.

                      What ‘new laws’? And what’s objectionable about them substantively? And how did you get the idea in your head that changes some boundaries in federal election law amounts to ‘gutting’ the ‘Voting Rights Act’?

                    93. enigma,
                      “I do reject public policies that encourage single parent households; mass incarceration, police shootings, stop & frisk, disproportionate sentencing for crack vs. powdered cocaine and voter suppression to name a few.”

                      Those are not ‘inherent disadvantages’. They are not part part of the essential nature of the life of blacks that are causing them disadvantages, other than the excessively high rate of families in single parent households.

                      I listed the risks of disadvantaged kids. They mirror the experiences of far too many kids living in single parent families:

                      “90% of welfare recipients are single mothers. ➲  70% of gang members, high school dropouts, teen suicides, teen pregnancies and teen substance abusers come from single mother homes. Statistically, a child in a single-parent household is far more likely to experience violence, commit suicide, continue a cycle of poverty, become drug dependent, commit a crime or perform below his peers in education.”
                      http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/Building%20a%20Career%20Pipeline%20Documents/Safe_Harbor.pdf

                      66% of black kids live in a single parent household. Nearly the same percentage of black kids live in low-income or poverty-stricken homes. The math says that these kids are likely being abused, they are likely poorly nourished, they are likely to be troubled emotionally in some way, and they are likely to get in trouble with the law.

                      The problems black kids face start at home. Before they ever get in trouble with the law, they are struggling at home from abuse or witnessing it, poor parenting, poor nourishment, insecure attachment issues, and stress of all other kinds (noise, toxins, lack of consistency with sleep, routine, etc.) that interfere with executive function and, consequently, impulse control and forethought.

                      That must change in order for the rest of the cascading events—trouble at school, starting drugs, teen pregnancy, dropping out, trouble with the law—to change.

                      Mass incarceration to feed the for-profit prison system is a whole different problem and one worthy of discussion. Stop and frisk is a 4th and 10th Amendment problem. Unfair sentencing is a problem. I do not think voter suppression is much of a problem. Low income people and people who have a high school diploma of all colors have a low voting turnout (each have about 50% turnout from the stats I saw). Blacks and whites have a nearly comparable voter turnout percentage (~60-65%). Get people free I.D.s and transportation if that’s what they need to get to the polls.

                      But not one of these is the main problem in these kids’ lives. It is their home life that sets them up to have problems.

                      “I do reject public policies that encourage single parent households”

                      I am not sure what policies these might be. What are you thinking of in particular?

                      “You do know when the Constitution was ratified, slavery continued to exist for another 90 years or so. “

                      Yes. What does that have to do with anything today? It was not perfect in the beginning. Is that the problem?

                      “All I ask is equal which does not yet exist.”

                      I think there is a distinction between equality and fairness. There will not be equality in incarceration rates until the home-life troubles of far too many black kids is reined in. That said, people should be treated fairly in terms of sentencing (I agree with you that there should not be a difference in sentencing for crack and cocaine violations).

                      “[Affirmative action] still pits minorities against minorities for a sliver of the whole pie. Equality has not yet arrived.”

                      It pits everyone not in the “in crowd” against each other. The problem is the legacy admissions at elite/private universities.

                      I do not understand your insistence on equality when it is the issue of fairness at stake. I do not treat my friends, family, and acquaintances equally, but I do try to treat them fairly and with kindness. Of course you are equal. It is self-evident.

                    94. I have no doubt that I am equal, it is our laws that I question. You see the high illegitimate birth rate as the cause of the problems. This has not always been the case and is a relatively recent phenomenon. I see it as a symptom that is derived from things like mass incarceration which effectively removes eligible black males from circulation or brands them as felons for offenses which could be as small as recreational marijuana use. There are studies which show the unmarried birth rate has changed little but fewer black women are marrying and having children.

                    95. “This has not always been the case and is a relatively recent phenomenon.”

                      Enigma is again looking backward instead of forward and to make things worse he is using invalid excuses.

                    96. There must be some kind of troll of the year award you can be nominated for? Because you know no history doesn’t mean I have to let it be rewritten.

                    97. Enigma, have you not noticed how vacuous all your statements are? Very little if any of what you say impacts the death rate of black children in Chicago and other black ghettos. Don’t you care? I do and I wish to do something about it, but I am not going to blame it in on white supremacists or slavery.

                    98. Your personal troll provided some points of agreement with Prarie Rose and points of action awhile ago. What you continue to provide are vacuous comments meant to hide your lack of concern for the real problems causing death and poverty in the black community. You seem to prefer to look backward, for by looking backward victimhood can be blamed for all problems.

                      Looking forward:

                      Two-parent families
                      A high school degree
                      No pregnancy before high school completed

                      And among other things:

                      Stronger police presence to protect the young and those wishing to advance in society, not lesser police presence.

                    99. Prairie Rose and Allan,
                      You both have done a tremendous job articulating the root problem(s) and Enigma is having none of it. He keeps talking about not having a level playing field but the field is not the problem. The law is not the problem. Equal protection under the law is not the barrier he perceives it to be. What the law has done if anything is to overcompensate for the failures in the past.

                      Welfare programs have tipped the scales on a culture from having to be self-reliant to one of dependence on the state. I experienced this first hand. My mother and father divorced when I was 5. I had 4 sisters and my mother received AFDC.One of the rules to qualify was that our family must be deprived of financial support from one of their parents due to the parent’s death, continued absence, or incapacity. (This includes children in two-parent families where the principal family earner is unemployed.) We were told my father was not providing child support but later in life discovered he was, it just wasn’t something my mother wanted us to know for fear the AFDC would be cutoff.

                      I made a comment to Enigma yesterday that he never responded to. I’ll make the point again here and then leave it be.

                      That’s that other half you keep talking about whether you’ll admit it or not. There is no justice to use the law unequally today to reconcile the use of the law unequally in our history. The law is not supposed to be used as a weapon against our citizens, denying them equal protection to favor one group over another. Isn’t that what the Civil Rights Movement was all about?

                      Equal protection under the law is supposed to be color-blind. Enigmas entire complaint rests squarely on the fact that the disadvantages the Jim Crow laws put on Blacks made the competition on the playing field unfair once the laws were changed. The playing field was made level but the competitors were unequal in skills and abilities. Blacks had the barriers removed but their competitors had already been given a head start. You cannot correct that by then making the laws unequal the other way.

                    100. enigma,
                      “You see the high illegitimate birth rate as the cause of the problems.”

                      I have said nothing about “the high illegitimate birth rate”. I have focused on single parent families. It is the parenting and home life that is the problem, not how the children arrived for the most part. Children born out of wedlock are more likely to have all the troubles kids in single parent families have, but disadvantaged kids whose parents divorced have nearly identical problems as kids born out of wedlock–home life instability.

                      “This has not always been the case and is a relatively recent phenomenon.” True. I think it started increasing in the 60s or 70s. Why then? What changed?

                      “I see it as a symptom that is derived from things like mass incarceration which effectively removes eligible black males from circulation or brands them as felons for offenses which could be as small as recreational marijuana use.”

                      58% of blacks in prison are there for violent crimes. They are not eligible bachelors worthy of developing a stable relationship with if they are violent. Chances are, they were violent before they were arrested–domestic abuse, violent at school. What caused the violent behavior? It started early in their unstable home life–most were probably abused–and was exacerbated by poor nourishment, toxins, stress, etc. There are plenty of studies showing violent offenders had fatty acid and vitamin/mineral deficiencies, and, when supplemented, their violent behavior decreased significantly.

                      Drug offenses account for only about 15% of inmates.

                      “There are studies which show the unmarried birth rate has changed little but fewer black women are marrying and having children.”

                      Why do you think that is?

                    101. Allan,
                      Enigma said to me: “You see the high illegitimate birth rate as the cause of the problems. This has not always been the case and is a relatively recent phenomenon.”

                      Your response: “Enigma is again looking backward instead of forward and to make things worse he is using invalid excuses.”

                      I do not understand why this is “an invalid excuse”. It is true that the illegitimate birth rate was not always as high as it is now, making it a relatively recent phenomenon (past 40 years or so). What part is the invalid excuse?

                    102. “Your response: “Enigma is again looking backward instead of forward and to make things worse he is using invalid excuses.”

                      I do not understand why this is “an invalid excuse”.”

                      Prairie Rose, my response was in reference to this comment “I have no doubt that I am equal, it is our laws that I question.” and I matched this comment to his many other comments about such laws that had little to do with two parent families which is one of a triad I mentioned elsewhere.

                      I was responding to dancing enigma who dances around the issues that need discussion, so I didn’t consider the fact that you might misinterpret which comment I was referring to. Sorry.

                    103. Enigma,
                      “There must be some kind of troll of the year award you can be nominated for? Because you know no history doesn’t mean I have to let it be rewritten.”

                      Allan is not trolling you. You are both being a bit snippy with one another.

                      He not trying to rewrite history either; he is trying to refocus attention on the current situation, not what happened or what was believed 50-250 or so years ago. What is happening now with disadvantaged black kids and families? I do not think the sins of the past have much bearing on the current percentage of single parent families in the black community, especially since back in the 50s the rate of single parent families was essentially the same as whites. Something changed back in the 60s/70s that caused this percentage to increase dramatically. Like any complex issue, it is a multitude of factors–the unfair sentencing is one small part of it. What are some of the possible factors? War on Poverty programs? Gerrymandering/redlining? The rise of HFCS and packaged foods? Manufacturing jobs moving overseas? Were many of the eligible young men shipped to Vietnam, leading to a derth of good men back home for raising families?

                      Whatever it was then, what are the problems now? What can be changed for the better now?

                    104. “Allan is not trolling you. You are both being a bit snippy with one another.”

                      Prairie Rose, the snippiness comes from the rhetoric that leaves enigma’s mouth. I don’t believe my family members should be treated differently because of laws, rules, and regulation involving race. I also don’t like to be linked with white supremacists which is what the left frequently does to any conservative that disagrees with their socialist policies. All of my family members are highly educated and reasonably well off. None of them require the aid of the law to place them ahead of others in mainstream society, yet due to these laws, rules, and regulations, quite a number of family members have been given that advantage.

                      We need to end race as criteria for aid of any type and replace it with need. Enigma comes from the advantaged group so likely he may have been given special privileges that others were denied. When that college accepted him on a basketball scholarship coming from a successful family, in part the college may have used race for that acceptance since in the end race is tallied up. Why not take a good basketball player that is black? That is not saying enigma wouldn’t have been chosen completely on his own merits. The law diminishes his abilities because of such an assumption and if true denied another person his scholarship because of that assumption. I don’t want to deny poor black families anything nor do I wish to compromise the appearance of their efforts.

                      I note a lot of well-off people getting these benefits including some in my own family who probably are quite happy because of such benefit. Some politicians like Elizabeth Warren and some educators love getting an unmeritorious advantage over others. Enigma, however, seems to want this type of nonsense continued. He benefits from it and he is not underprivileged or uneducated.

                      Let me make a better suggestion than the present laws. Take the Allan Bakke decision. I believe a black without the same credentials was taken in his place. If it is true that the black was underprivileged and therefore didn’t excel as well Bakke because of social conditions then do what some kids do when they are not accepted to medical school. Pay for his masters in a related field at Harvard or another major university and bring him up to speed or perhaps better than speed. When he gets accepted he will do so based on his own merits and people, later on, will not think that he might be an affirmative action doctor who exists as a doctor only because of special advantages. It will also help him succeed because there is evidence that this preferential treatment has been harmful to some very intelligent kids that had difficulty competing because of the lack of competition in the previous years.

                    105. Thank you! Violent offenders should go to jail (for the same length of time for similar offenses). I’ll be incorporating the information in #19-24 into future discussions. Those statistics make my point better than I have thus far.

                    106. Olly,
                      “You both have done a tremendous job articulating the root problem(s)”

                      Thank you for your kind words. Overall, this has been a very good discussion with all involved and I look forward to continuing it (I will have to take a break soon and go do real life stuff like errands and chores–sigh).

                      I advocate for Functional Medicine, a system that aims to find the root(s) of health problems and addressing those to help return patients to health rather than treat symptoms (which seems to be the modus operandi of most medical care). This approach can be carried over to “social health and wellbeing” problems–addressing the root causes of poverty, crime, single parent homes.

                      There are many, many things needing to be addressed in the lives of disadvantaged people of all backgrounds before anything gets better. Enigma does note issues that do need to be discussed and addressed (e.g., unfair sentencing–or, unhelpful sentencing–put people in detox programs for heaven’s sake!), though I would say some are symptoms of underlying struggles, and, many of these same issues are not limited to a particular color/race of people.

                    107. Olly, I should have thanked you as well, but you already know how much I appreciate what you say. One of the dumbest things we can do is act in a tribalistic fashion.If it were up to me I would abolish the word race in the census and every questionnaire except if being used for medical or ancestral purposes. We are one society with many people of different backgrounds.

                    108. enigma,
                      “I’ll be incorporating the information in #19-24 into future discussions.”

                      I am looking forward to these discussions. I am enjoying our current one very much. I do have to go out now to run some errands (Saturdays are not free for a mama of 4 kiddos!). If you post something and I do not respond in a very timely manner it is because I am wandering a grocery store or something! 😉

                    109. Allan,
                      “I don’t believe my family members should be treated differently because of laws, rules, and regulation involving race. I also don’t like to be linked with white supremacists which is what the left frequently does to any conservative that disagrees with their socialist policies.”

                      I completely agree. No party should get special privileges. We are all people–nuff said. The ad hominem attacks solve nothing. It is not only unfair, but it also prevents effective discussion that would lead to understanding of all the components so that a true joint effort could be initiated to solve a problem that affects everyone. It diminishes any arguments of the person using the smears and only serves to tick off those being unfairly characterized. In the end it is unfair to both sides.

                    110. “The ad hominem attacks solve nothing. It is not only unfair, but it also prevents effective discussion”

                      Prarie Rose, While what you say is true this blog and society in America seems to be beyond that point. An ad hominem provided from the source or from a secondary source for those that think they can avoid responsibility for their ad hominem attacks is one and the same.

                      After all, aren’t all the conservatives on this list “Deplorable’s” and white supremacists or racists? We see that all the time in some of the news clippings some use as their mouthpieces without a defense of what was said. But, we aren’t just seeing words, we are seeing the actions of Antifa and BLM using destruction and violence to prevent the speech of conservatives and to intimidate politicians and the police from doing their lawful jobs. That violence that leads to death and destruction is tolerated by all too many.

                      Yes, there are the Nazi’s marching and the skinheads, but the conservatives on this list condemn those groups and their violence. We don’t see the same from the Liberals on this list. We also see some on this blog that directly call people and their followers racists. That is fine if they can show cause for doing so, but that is not the case. Not only do they not demonstrate proof of the racism they say exists, but they race-bait and dance around facts so that effective discussion really doesn’t take place. Instead it is an assumed discussion that gets one nowhere.

                      When there is such an imbalance ad hominem’s are the least of our problems. I suggest a bit more honesty even if that honesty sounds a bit rude. The scab overlying the infection needs to be removed.

                    111. Allan,
                      “The scab overlying the infection needs to be removed.”

                      That is what I am trying to do. I believe civility is the surer route in the long run in most cases.

                      Antifa is a different story because they will not even engage other points of view.

                      I called out enigma’s unfair insinuation against you and Olly. I believe enigma is a good person, and I believe he, too, wants to be treated fairly. The likelihood that we can at least reach understanding of one another’s positions (perhaps not agreement, yet) is higher if the discussion is kept fair and civil. Overall, I think this has been a very good discussion. I am enjoying the conversation immensely.

                    112. “That is what I am trying to do. I believe civility is the surer route in the long run in most cases.”

                      I totally agree, Prarie Rose, but this is not one of those cases. Presently we are dealing with violence from Antifa and BLM that is openly being supported by words and deeds. People have been killed, speech has been obstructed and property has been destroyed. ‘Please’ and ‘thank you’ don’t work and have no effect except to permit the violence to expand.

                      We have bloggers who have openly supported these violent groups while removing themselves with a friendly nod from that violence knowing full well that such support enables the violent ones. Police have been killed, but according to some, they are pigs because one can always point to a past injustice or some policeman that has acted poorly. Then we have those indiscriminately labeling others as racists and those associating with them as white supremacists. These “privileged” people feel it is their God-given right and need no proof what so ever.

                      Enigma is not the issue. He is a symptom of a disease of the mind. He likely is a decent person, but, he lives in the past and based on his age probably will never change. That is not my concern. I am concerned with those polite fair-minded folk that are too bound up in political correctness to call things what they are. When political correctness no longer rules their lives a true and civil debate can occur.

                  2. Does any of that make what I said untrue? “No other industrialized society imprisons the percentage of its population that we do either”

                    The implication of your complaint is silly. Fully one-third of the population of the world’s most affluent countries lives here. If anyone’s the gold standard, it’s us. Why you wish to take your cues from Germany or Belgium is a mystery to any sensible person. Other countries have populations with different dispositions, other countries make different collective moral judgments, other countries have different goals re levels of public order. About 0.5% of the population is sitting in prisons, state and federal. We have a comparatively large criminal population. Until we have index crime rates down to the level of 1960, I’m not going to worry about the size of the prison census unless I think we ought to rebalance expenditures in favor of more police patrols and less incapacitation.

                  3. Wouldn’t you agree that over 95% of legacy admissions to those schools are white? Yet you think nothing of it.

                    I think nothing of it because it’s being done by private institutions on a small scale. Again, you have birth cohorts which are around 3.9 million in size, maybe 100,000 U.S. residents of college age in each cohort who were born abroad, and may 100,000 foreigners recruited to attend here. You have just north of 4 million people of whom about 60% (2.6 million) will enroll as freshman at some 4 year or two year institution. You might locate 10,000 for whom legacy preferences trumped academic performance. It’s not that important.

                    When you have 250,000 black freshman enrolling in 4 year institutions each year and 125,000 have academic performance metrics which would sluice them to community colleges (or to the workforce) were they not black, that strikes me as a larger and more corrosive anomaly.

                    1. “Wouldn’t you agree that over 95% of legacy admissions to those schools are white? Yet you think nothing of it.”

                      I note how enigma in his statement divides people into black and white rather than legacy and non legacy. Those white kids are faced with competing with legacy kids just like black kids are and then they have to face discrimination because they are white. Enigma’s claim is that black kids are disadvantaged. In some respects he is correct, but his argument should not be affirmative action for black kids rather some type of help for all disadvantaged poor kids. Enigma is slicing and dicing the races and in the process I believe his type of rhetoric causes the flames of racism and victimhood to flourish.

                      DSS, Though we have our tiffs, unrelated to my tiffs with enigma, I must say that you have done a superb job in this series of postings.

      2. Sorry but it is totalitarianism and classified as the hard, extreme right.

        Actually go learn what liberal means. Like Gladstone.

        1. So it is your thesis that the extant Dem party is composed of classic liberals?

      3. Well said Karen. Not only is higher (and some lower) education becoming a protected environment for progressive far left ideology but we the people are subsidizing it whether we agree with it or not.

    3. But I do agree that attributing a political motivation to the shooter is premature. No one knows what his motivation is. Going any further than a guess just gets that rumor mill going, as you said. I am curious if he had a psychotic break, or if he was a lifelong psychopath who fooled his relatives. The cause could be something else entirely.

        1. enigma, Like yourself, I tire of guessing. But being a PI, the first thing I look for is the most obvious. That would be his gambling obsession. He was an uber introvert and a high stakes gambler. He didn’t play table games w/ human interaction, he played video poker, the most addictive of all gambling. So, the most likely is he wanted to hurt the industry that took his money. frankly is also correct to look @ his brain, if it isn’t blown to pieces. His old man was a psycho or sociopath.

          1. Nick – there is no proof that his father was either a sociopath or psychopath and we have no proof that Paddock was either. The guy seemed to have plenty of money, had just moved into a new retirement community on the Nevada-Arizona border and had talked to his brother 5 days ago. It has been longer than that since I talked to my brother. 😉

            If he was angry at the casino, he could have just gone downstairs to the gaming rooms and opened up there. However, that concert gave him a target-rich environment where he couldn’t miss. It also appears from reports from live victims that he was a hell of a shot. From that distance and that angle at that time of night with an automatic weapon, after people started to scatter he was able to pick targets and kill them, not just wound.

            1. When the father was put on the FBI Most Wanted List after his prison escape the description included, “Diagnosed as psychopathic.”

              1. And he couldn’t walk into a casino w/o hundreds of cameras seeing him and his being shot quickly. He was a loner. He sat by himself in casinos and played video poker for days on end. Going to a hotel room, ALONE, and shooting people from an elevated position is what a video poker psychopath would do. He had to be in control and alone. He killed himself. No one else was going to kill him, he did it himself. This is my biz, bro.

                1. Nick – your biz is other people’s biz, not mass murder. Tell me Nick, how many mass murders have you worked?

              2. Nick – after the APA decided that first homosexuality was a mental disease and then it wasn’t a mental disease, I have little confidence in any diagnosis by anyone from the APA. Go to any trial where they are using psychiatrists as expert witnesses and they each have a different opinion. It is like playing Russian roulette with the truth. Woody Allen has been in therapy since his 20s and he still hasn’t been cured. Not sure what they are trying to cure him of, but it is not working. 🙂

                My brother went to a psychiatrist because he was gay and they were going to get rid of the gay in him. After two years he was still gay and was now a cross-dresser.

                1. Whether something is or is not a disorder is a normative judgment. I wouldn’t credit the opinions of physicians or social researchers more than I would the opinions of cops or carpenters.

                  Talk therapy isn’t very effective for much of anything. They have some approaches now which were novel in 1975 which might work better for certain things. The American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association would like to defend their members’ income stream. They don’t have a problem with ineffective talk therapy if the object of it is not unfashionable.

                2. So why even have a discussion on this if you don’t believe in any diagnosis? Stupid. And my business is people. I understand people, including the dark side, on a profound level.

                  1. A few years back this psycho sued the Cosmopolitan in a slip and fall. I’ve watched the surveillance tape and it kinda looks staged. He lost the case. I certainly know this ilk. Another possible motive. People get angry when they think they are going to be awarded big bucks and get nothing. I wouldn’t be surprised if the defense had this guy under surveillance regarding alleged injuries.

                3. The biggest problem your brother faced was probably what others thought and how they acted. Conversion therapy is garbage though discussion about one’s feelings can be helpful. In the end the gay individual should chose the life style he feels best for him and recognize that outside opinions are not his problem, rather their’s.

                  1. Conversion therapy is garbage

                    The people telling you that belong to a professional guild that peddled psychoanalysis for about five decades. Now their shtick is making people drug dependent.

                    1. DDS, despite the fact that some of psychiatry isn’t as good as we would like there is a need for psychaitrists and drugs. Of course should you become in need of some sort of medical care you can seek out a witch doctor if that is your preference.

                    2. You’ve confused psychiatrists in the business of containing public order problems (who aren’t that numerous and are commonly immigrants) with various sorts of office practitioners who made and have made a good living from spinning their wheels. Some of them ‘help’ people and some do not, but the most reliable outcome of psychotherapy is that the therapist gets paid. Ditto other manifestations of the talking cure, such as ‘counseling’. (Fuller Torrey, a psychiatrist highly critical of the direction of post-war psychiatry, deems ‘counseling’ the solution for the bulk of the clientele of the mental health trade. “Counseling” is a division of education, not medicine”). The counselor cannot avoid an implicit hierarchy of values in his work, of course, his denials notwithstanding. Neither is counseling immune to certain corruptions. It’s fashionable among practitioners to denigrate ‘reparative therapists’ and attempt to put them out of business; it’s also highly hypocritical.

                    3. DSS, you are promoting your own opinion. Today most psychiatrists do not practice psychotherapy and their outpatient practices are mostly limited to providing medication. I’m not in love with psychiatry, but as discussed before your statements are too black and white where there is a lot of gray in between.

                    4. Today most psychiatrists do not practice psychotherapy and their outpatient practices are mostly limited to providing medication.

                      So what? It’s not as if none of them do. There’s also an antheap of mental heath tradesmen working today who did not pass through medical residencies. Working psychiatrists number about 25,000. There are about 110,000 (non-academic) psychologists (though some only do assessments), 660,000 counselors and 114,000 clinical social workers.

                    5. DSS, your knowledge is very shallow as demonstrated here when you shifted your position. We are talking about psychiatrists that are M.D.’s or DO’s, not any of the other groups you talk about. Clinical psychologists do most of the talk therapy today and they are separate and apart from the other psychologists that you talk about. They generally refer to psychiatrists when medications are felt to be required. Internists also do considerable psychiatric work. Sometimes all people need is affirmation or a short term break from the stresses of life.

                    6. We are talking about psychiatrists that are M.D.’s or DO’s, not any of the other groups you talk about.

                      No, you’re talking about that and insisting that I’m somehow obligated to limit my discussion to post-1985 psychiatric practice. I’m not.

                    7. Internists also do considerable psychiatric work.

                      Not really. Just writing prescriptions if that.

                    8. “I’m somehow obligated to limit my discussion to post-1985 psychiatric practice. ”

                      You have talking in the present tense so one has to assume that we are dealing somewhere around 2017, not 1985. If you wish to obfuscate your remarks do so, but we all realize that the purpose of such obfuscation is to permit you to make statements that aren’t true that you can later twist around. That is your problem.

                    9. “Not really. Just writing prescriptions if that.”

                      That shows how little you know.

                    10. That shows how little you know.

                      Ha ha ha. My last ‘physical’ took the doctor less than 15 minutes, most of which time he spent typing in an electronic medical record. I think he looked in my ear with an otoscope. That’s what you get out of internists, even when you have an actual medical problem.

                    11. “Ha ha ha. My last ‘physical’ took the doctor…”

                      What was you psychiatric complaint that you provided to your doctor? None?

                      I will say that medical care is going downhill and at a much more rapid rate since ObamaCare and the use of electronic records. There we are in agreement. Internists are turning into triage personal. Bad. Many are now treating code numbers. Bad. I don’t think we disagree on these things that are occurring in the medical sector, but that sector has been made so complicated that it is very difficult for many to understand.

                    12. What was you psychiatric complaint that you provided to your doctor? None?

                      He’d have typed that into a different field in the electronic medical record than the set he ordinarily uses.

                    13. “He’d have typed that into a different field in the electronic medical record than the set he ordinarily uses.”

                      I don’t know what you mean or how this answer pertains to the question. There are all sorts of questions that are generally requested by the computer, needed or not, psychiatric questions as well.

                      But what was the psychaitric question you asked? None? If the doc didn’t do a damned thing, why did you go? Did you have a free physical coming? That is part of government healthcare and not a very good way of spending scarce resources. Did you need a flu shot? You can get them at Walgreens. Just why were you at your doctor wasting everyone’s time and costing everyone else money? I’m not holding you responsible, but questioning you because you complained about the doctor doing nothing. What was he supposed to do if nothing was wrong? Who was the doctor ultimately responsible to? Your insurer, Medicare, your employer? The answer is whoever paid him and likely that wasn’t you or you chose the wrong doctor.

                    14. I don’t know what you mean or how this answer pertains to the question.

                      Allan, I can’t pee for you or explain things to you which are perfectly plain in their meaning. You get it or you don’t.

                    15. DDS, you have the habit of making wild statements and not being able to focus in on the problems you state exist. I am not going to defend physicians or psychiatrists in this case because we have a big problem in the medical sector, but these very broad statements of yours require a bit more detail. The only reason for you to lack reasonable detail is your lack of sophistication of the subject matter. (By the way, I was the one to initially reject conversion therapy when I first was discussing this with Paul)

                      You don’t like psychiatrists and that is clear. I’ll send all the crazies to your house. Who know? They might fit in perfectly well.

                  2. Allan – he just moved to the Castro in SF where he could be himself. 🙂

                    1. No, it isn’t. Containing your urge to make the world worse is the only defensible policy.

                    2. That is Bullsh!t DSS and you ought to know that. Nothing is perfect, but the worst thing to do is try and live someone else’s life.

                    3. That is Bullsh!t DSS and you ought to know that. Nothing is perfect, but the worst thing to do is try and live someone else’s life.

                      That’s not a coherent statement. One never faces the choice of whether or not to ‘live someone else’s life’ unless one’s in the midst of a bizarre “Mr. Ripley” scenario. One can only make choices within the life one has. And one faces certain imperatives, aesthetic and moral, in making those choices.

                    4. DSS, you are trying to say things that you have no knowledge of. Living someone else’s life means living by someone else’s rules, not one’s own. Paul’s brother is gay and a lot of people have hasseled gays because of their choice whether voluntary or involuntary. Some gays try to live a life that isn’t the one they were destined for and that can lead to tragic results. One has to accept who and what they are and live their lives.

                    5. Living someone else’s life means living by someone else’s rules, not one’s own.

                      Life is lived socially and you’re always living by someone else’s rules. And categorical imperatives are what they are, whether you dreamed them up or not.

                      DSS, you are trying to say things that you have no knowledge of.

                      Sayeth the man who has made serial utterances which read like bromides from inspirational and self-help literature or like the nonsense of someone deep in clinical solipsism.

                    6. Paul’s brother is gay and a lot of people have hasseled gays because of their choice whether voluntary or involuntary. Some gays try to live a life that isn’t the one they were destined for and that can lead to tragic results. One has to accept who and what they are and live their lives.

                      And we know what his ‘destiny’ is courtesy an ex cathedra pronouncement from you. Thanks for the education.

                    7. “Life is lived socially and you’re always living by someone else’s rules.”

                      That is true, but what you are doing is once again obfuscating the intent of your original statement. The problems that gays frequently face is that those surrounding them wish them to be “normal” just like them. Many gays try to live that type of life when they shouldn’t. You can keep digging your hole deeper DSS, but I am sure you will eventually find a ladder to let you out.

                      “Sayeth the man who has made serial utterances which read like bromides from inspirational…”

                      No, DSS. I just have more knowledge about this than you and you can’t look up things fast enough to respond. AS I said before, you are shallow.

                    8. “And we know what his ‘destiny’ is courtesy an ex cathedra pronouncement from you. Thanks for the education.”

                      You are welcome. I Don’t know the man so I don’t pretend to know his personal destiny, but I do know the destiny of the group.

                      I will be here to further your education anytime you avail yourself. When I provide you with a degree does it go to DesperatelySeekingSusan or StepOnToads?

                    9. No, DSS. I just have more knowledge about this than you

                      Actually, what you’ve done is recycle tropes you might have read in magazines.

                    10. Actually, what you’ve done is recycle tropes you might have read in magazines.

                      What I say may be recycled for I haven’t done the original research, but what I said is true and what you have said is bullsh!t. You have resorted to attacking the messenger instead of the message. The latter takes knowledge you lack.

                    11. What I say may be recycled for I haven’t done the original research, but what I said is true and what you have said is bullsh!t. You have resorted to attacking the messenger instead of the message. The latter takes knowledge you lack.

                      I haven’t attacked you. I’ve just refused to take you seriously in this discussion, because you’re making use of phraseology that is trite, ill-thought-out, and one I cannot imagine anyone using non-ironically.

                    12. “I haven’t attacked you. I’ve just refused to take you seriously in this discussion, because you’re making use of phraseology that is trite, ill-thought-out, and one I cannot imagine anyone using non-ironically.”

                      Go ahead and quote the statments that you feel are not true. Right now you are hiding behind generalities which is generally your modus operandi. Since I am not sure which statement I’ll provide one.

                      “Not really. Just writing prescriptions if that.”

                      A lot of problems that end up in a generalists office are problems having to do with the ‘worried well’. Those problems involve the mind not the physical well being of the individual. Do you think all those patients end up in a psychiatrists office? Who do you think became the first psychiatrists and why?

                    13. Allan,
                      I think you and DSS are speaking of different things. Sometimes when people say they should just be themselves it becomes an excuse to say and do horrid things. Hey, I’m just being myself, they say. I’m keeping it real, instead of restraining their base impulses.

                      I agree with you, that we should be the best version of ourselves, but DSS does note a problematic interpretation expressed by some people.

                    14. “I think you and DSS are speaking of different things.”

                      Thank you Prarie Rose, but I don’t think that is the case. DSS likes to be contrary and tries to show how smart he is. He had nothing to add and apparently Paul’s brother figured some of his solutions himself. Without anything to say DSS decided to discuss something else that neither moved the conversation forward or was designed to have any impact on the situation Paul’s brother faced.

                      DSS’s alternative was to simply state that there were different ways of looking at things and ask for clarification. As usual he turned the question into a black and white situation when as you say things aren’t all that clear. You are, and I agree with you, but DSS isn’t.

                    15. Prarie Rose, I should have added that DSS does this contrary thing of his all the time. At first I ignored it and felt like you it was just a different way of looking at things, but after a dozen times and more I realized that was part of his game. I’ll play it with him if he wishes but only if he his trying to advance a conversation to a higher level.

              3. His father was on the FBI most wanted?

                If he did have antisocial or psychopathic tendencies, it can be genetic. Not always, but it does often run in families. Most psychopaths never commit murder, but just enjoy causing distress in others, gas lighting, inflating their own importance, etc.

                1. If he did have antisocial or psychopathic tendencies, it can be genetic.

                  According to the vulgar translation of the biases of the time.

      1. His brother has been vociferous and explicit that Stephen Paddock had no religious or political affiliation that his 1st degree relatives knew anything about. Eric Paddock also says that as of a couple of years ago, his brother owned 3 guns. The two brothers were not estranged and had spoken as recently as Hurricane Irma; Eric Paddock had helped his brother move into a new home in the last couple of years.

        1. Step, This is the kind of guy no one really knew. His girlfriend being out of the country may have been the spark. Maybe she dumped him? She lived w/ him and probably knew him much better than his brother.

          1. Depends on how long she lived with him.

            No clue what his motives were, though I might start hunting for truffles by tallying his gambling losses.

            1. Step, I said last night, gambling losses s the first place I would look and the most likely source. But this lost slip and fall case could be part of the equation. This HURTS Vegas.

              1. Nick, what is the motivation to take out so many uninvolved citizens? He could have committed suicide in Mesquite, no need for the mass murder.

                1. Cape, To inflict damage on the industry. He sued them on a slip n’ fall and lost and lost gambling. This is all educated conjecture. We may never totally understand, but I think we will learn a lot soon.

                  1. Everyone will be looking for a cause which will lead to a debate on a solution. Just a reminder: the government will be in control of both the investigation and potential legislation. They are not likely to err on the side of reason but rather emotion.

            2. So he decides to pull a suicide-by-cop but not before his clearly premeditated target practice on a bunch of unsuspecting concert-goers? I’m not an expert, but I don’t think men with gambling debts typically engage in this type of violent crime.

              1. Nobody of any description typically engages in this type of violent crime. He’s an extreme outlier. It’s a reasonable wager the main driver of this is unfathomable. Just wondering what might have flipped the switch.

                1. Human nature to speculate….the psych community is going to be able to ride this case study for years!

              2. And it wasn’t suicide by cop. He clipped himself before cops entered his room. He had to be in control.

                1. Yes, I know, but the end result is the same. Would he have shot himself if the cops weren’t going to barge into his hotel room? Perhaps, but prolly not before taking out a bunch more unfortunate people.

              3. I want to hear the interview with his girlfriend. On the top of the list has to be terrorism since terrorism has a tendency to repeat itself over and over again.ISIS took credit for it in at least one release. When has ISIS taken credit for something they have had absolutely no part of?

                “The Las Vegas attack was carried out by a soldier of the Islamic State and he carried it out in response to calls to target states of the coalition. The Las Vegas attacker converted to Islam a few months ago.”

                When has ISIS made a claim of this nature where they didn’t have some involvement?

                1. Allan – there have been cases where as many as four groups took credit for a terrorist event. It was hard figuring out who really was responsible.

                  1. That is true Paul, but almost always ISIS had some involvement when they claimed involvement. We have to remember how loose these groups are and how many different groups may deal in a similar direction.

                    The number of times our government has stated that the attack had nothing to do with Islamist extremists that was later proven to be done by Islamist extremists far exceeds the number of attacks in this country claimed by ISIS where ISIS was not the lead perpetrator.

                    1. Catherine Garcia wrote for the NYTimes. How many times did the Times state that certain killings were not related to Islamists when later that was found to be untrue. Didn’t the NYTImes refer to the Fort Hood shootings by Nidal Hasan ‘workplace violence’? The credibility of such people is very much at issue.

                    2. ISIS Claimed the Las Vegas Shooter as a ‘Soldier.’ Experts Are Skeptical.

                      by Jared Malsin

                      Oct 02, 2017

                      http://time.com/4965449/isis-las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock/

                      “The announcement on Monday was the latest in a series of claims by ISIS that have been called into question or proven false. In March the group claimed responsibility for the melee on Westminster Bridge in London without offering evidence. In May ISIS claimed as its own the lethal bombing of an Ariane Grande concert in Manchester in the United Kingdom, but the organization’s statement included factual errors that suggested a possible breakdown in its propaganda machinery.

                      “ISIS’ false claims continued in June when the extremists said they had been behind an attack on a casino in Manila that left dozens of people dead—the attacker was later identified as a former Finance Department employee who owed tens of thousands of dollars in gambling debts. In August, ISIS claimed responsibility for the vehicle rampage on Barcelona’s iconic Las Ramblas boulevard, but falsely stated that there had also been an attack on a bar following the initial killing.

                      “This string of claims comes as the Islamic State is preparing to make its last stand as a conventional land army in Iraq and Syria. Its forces are surrounded in its onetime capital in the Syrian city of Raqqa, and in July the group was defeated in the Iraqi city of Mosul following nine months of intense urban fighting. The group is widely predicted to return to its roots as an insurgency that continues to stage attacks but holds little or no territory.

                      “Analysts say ISIS’ propaganda is directed in large part at its followers and potential recruits around the world. Following a devastating series of defeats, analysts say the group could also be attempting to reassert an image of potency through any means necessary — including by false claims.“We can say that it isn’t true. We can prove that it isn’t true. But for Islamic State supporters, for bona fide card-carrying members of the group who are scrounging around looking around for anything that’ll show them they’re on the right path still after their group has lost most of its territory,” says Winter, “They’ll believe what they want to believe, they’ll believe that this is true.””

                    3. Anonymous, you have quoted so many bad sources in the past who is to believe anything you post. I don’t know if ISIS is involved or isn’t involved, but I do know that most of the leftist media you rely upon have denied Islamist involvement where eventually Islamist involvement was proven. Your media all too frequently has an agenda and what you are reading is not news rather their efforts to meet their agenda.

                    4. Allan says:

                      “Anonymous, you have quoted so many bad sources in the past who is to believe anything you post. I don’t know if ISIS is involved or isn’t involved, but I do know that most of the leftist media you rely upon have denied Islamist involvement where eventually Islamist involvement was proven. Your media all too frequently has an agenda and what you are reading is not news rather their efforts to meet their agenda.”

                      “Bad sources”, you say? Nonsense, Allan. Back up your BS or it’s just that: more BS

                      You’re speculating and — once again — you’re unable to back up your statements. One is left to conclude that it’s just more of your unsubstantiated blather.

                    5. From the Time article:

                      “It’s not totally impossible that a 64-year-old white guy from Mesquite is an ISIS supporter, but it’s pushing the envelope pretty hard,” said extremism analyst J.M. Berger, in a tweet.

                    6. Anonymous, you have repeated yourself. Sounds like a bad disease. I’ll repeat myself for your benefit.

                      Go back to the NYTImes and look at what they called various shooters like the one at Ft. Hood which they ascribed to workplace violence. Then look some years later and see if the facts match the Times reports. They don’t. There is no convincing you of anything because you believe the truth is what you wish to believe and I am not in the business of destroying wishes.

                2. I can’t answer your questions, Allan, but I do think everyone desperately needs more info WRT possible motives. This whole event is so awful; just hug your family and tell them you love ’em.

          2. I heard yesterday the the girlfriend is in the Philippines. Then Japan. Then Indonesia. It sounds like either they don’t know where she is, or she’s moving around. I’m surprised the FBI dismissed her involvement almost immediately. Yes, she didn’t physically pull the trigger but I would want to interview her and see what she knows and why she’s out of the country.

            1. Maybe the FBI doesn’t want to scare her away. It’s strange that just by luck she is out of town. Then again our intelligence services haven’t been as truthful to the American public as they should be.

              1. It is curious that the FBI would dismiss the girlfriend and the ISIS angle out of hand. ISIS claims he converted recently. Maybe that’s true or maybe it’s bunk. It’s quite easy to convert to Islam. You repeat a sentence twice. It’s not like converting to Catholicism where it takes a full year of classes and ceremonies. You can be converted to Islam on the street corner and it’s done all the time in Europe. While I doubt he is a Muslim convert, it is possible and should not be dismissed without looking at his Internet activity, reviewing any writings, looking at his book collection, and interviewing the girlfriend. And I doubt this was triggered by a break-up with the girlfriend, or why would he wire her $100,000? That’s a lot of money for someone in the Philippines. And why is she out of the country? Quite a coincidence. The FBI dismissed her involvement without any investigation of her. Why? Because Asian women aren’t known to be mass killers? That’s a stereotype, but she could have had some supporting role. When law enforcement dismisses possible leads without investigation, it only fuels speculation and conspiracy theories.

                1. Tin, Our intelligence agencies have done a lot of strange things in recent years. They get away with it claiming national security and we are rapidly finding out that job security in their lingo might be synonymous with national security. Therefore I can only deal with what I see and as you say “It is curious”. The latter makes me not wish to believe anything said without proof.

                  There are many reasons for this man to have done what he did.

                  Islamist terrorism at this point is only one reason of many that has to be looked into.

              1. The Philippines has no extradition policy with the U.S., so if she doesn’t want to come back, the FBI can’t touch her.

                  1. “Las Vegas Shooting: Gunman’s Girlfriend Arrives in U.S. and Is Expected to Be Questioned”

                    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/us/las-vegas-shooting-live-updates.html

                    LAS VEGAS — Marilou Danley, the girlfriend of the gunman in the Las Vegas mass shooting, arrived at Los Angeles International Airport on Tuesday night and was met by the authorities, according to a law enforcement official. She was expected to be questioned upon her arrival, a federal official said.

                    1. Yes, I saw that she arrived back in the US on multiple news sources. That will likely provide more needed information. News is being gathered and the NYTimes is just one of the providers. Unfortuantely the NYTimes all too frequently uses basic news articles to promote their view rather than to provide unbiased news. The above statement is real news.

  9. The shooter had no sympathy for country music concert goers, either. It appears that both he and Ms. Hayley Geftman-Gold felt they got what they deserved.

    Perhaps that the is the problem with violence in America – people lacking basic empathy for their fellow human beings. That would make Ms Geftman-Gold part of the problem rather than the solution.

    I had friends at that concert and in that city. They posted a pic to social media just before the concert started. 2 of my friends were shot at and survived scared but unscathed. They are the parents of two sweet young children who could have been orphaned yesterday. Another friend of mine also knew people who went to that concert. One of the girlfriends in that group was killed.

    So you will excuse me if I find Getman-Gold’s comments to be abhorrent, callous, and irresponsible.

    Hard Left extremist politics has poisoned America. The Left believes that conservatives are evil, and anything you do against evil is fighting the good fight. That is how an otherwise intelligent, educated woman declares she is glad that 58 people died at a concert, and that country music lovers are inherently bad. That is how a Leftist extremist shot at Republican lawmakers. That is how a struggling comedienne hefted the severed head of a sitting US president in effigy and thought it was brave.

    It’s insanity. Stop it. Snap out of it. We need to address hard Left political extremism and have a very tough conversation with people who willfully segregate races at school in a “safe spaces” version of Jim Crow, and disrupt classical education as racist. It’s neurotic, fascist, and victim profiteering.

    On another note, although we have extremists like Geftman-Gold gleefully wallowing in tragedy, there were many instances of heroism that day. We all saw police charging into danger to save lives. Bystanders drove the wounded to hospitals. I saw men sheltering women with their own bodies, and at least one husband died to save his wife. People helped each other over walls. Rendered first aid. Doctors and nursing staff rushed back to the hospital on their precious time off when they would normally be trying to get some sleep…finally. No one asked what color or political preference they were. No one cared. It was see a need, fill a need. Hate profiteers, take note. Love and unity will always be more moving and meaningful than divisive politics.

    1. Karen – thank you for reminding me, I forgot to thank the doctors, nurses, and staff of the hospitals of the hospitals in LV. They did and continue to do Herculean work. Thank you, guys.

      1. I’ve been to Vegas many times and driven there from all directions. Although Vegas has grown massively, once you get out of the metro, there is not much for hundreds of miles. I can’t imagine the stress on those medical pros. My prayers for them. There will be many PTSD victims from this.

        1. Aye

          As of 2010, about 95% of Clark County’s population lived in a single discrete dense settlement. There are a couple of small towns to the northeast. The rest of the county has a population density of about 12 persons per square mile. You get outside Las Vegas and Reno and the state’s population density is shy of 5 persons per square mile. The countryside in New York state has a density 15x that.

          1. SOT – there is a little used back road (State Route) from Phoenix to Vegas which avoids the Hoover Dam. The population there and on the road to Area 51 is about 1 person per 50 acres.

            1. Paul C. Schulte,..
              – They completed the Hoover Dam bypass about 7-8 hears ago.
              Saves a lot of time v. going through the checkpoints and crawling at a snails pace over the highway that crosses the dam.

              1. Tom Nash – you have to remember that I have lived here since 1964. 🙂 I finally took the new bridge this year. I was over it before I knew I was on it.

                1. Paul C. Schulte, That bridge spans a heck of a canyon…it’s a pretty impressive engineering feat.
                  I think they completed it on schedule.
                  Re the back roads you mentioned earlier…at what point do you get off Highway 93?
                  And where does it connect when you enter Nevada?

                  1. Tom Nash – I did it sometime in the mid 70s so I really cannot remember. All I remember is a lot of cactus and nothing.

                    1. Understood, Paul.
                      Hard to remember roads taken c.40-45 years ago.
                      And I’ve heard that the peyote from the cactus can fog your memory as well.😄

    2. I’m glad your friends made it out of that nightmare. My wife received an e-mail from one of her co-workers who was at least in the vicinity of the shooting, but it was unclear where.

      It hasn’t been discussed much here but as for the shooter there is little reason to attempt to derive logic behind their decision to go on a rampage. We are dealing with a depraved mind. And as you mentioned her, that depraved mind exists in those such as this lawyer who had at least a spark of this anger but fortunately expressed it in a cold-hearted social media posting only.

      1. Darren – that is what I struggle with in these kinds of slaughters. It’s hard for me to accept the reality that we often never know why someone goes crazy and kills people. There will always be bad people, which is why I’m grateful for law enforcement who stand between us and evil.

    3. It’s insanity. Stop it. Snap out of it. We need to address hard Left political extremism and have a very tough conversation with people who willfully segregate races at school in a “safe spaces” version of Jim Crow, and disrupt classical education as racist. It’s neurotic, fascist, and victim profiteering.

      Advocate Gettman-Gold is an ordinary haut bourgeois, not a purveyor of ‘hard left political extremism’.

    4. Karen, Good to hear good news. This sh!tbird was a country music fan and reportedly has attended this festival.

      1. This guy is a Schumer puppet. No credibility. Too bad, he used to be funny. Now he’s just an alt left hack.

    1. At least with CBS, her employment was not considered. It was reflexively applied, akin to how the body responds to a sudden pain and the body instantly reacts before the brain has a chance to think.

    1. Dog whistle for “they deserved what they got.”
      It’s the “basket of deplorables” comment in another form.
      Hence the reflexive, mindless tweet from the idiot lawyer.
      You don’t have to feel compassion for others.

  10. Good grief, so many of these people aren’t even human, it seems. Add another privileged, ignorant, and heartless woman to a growing list of them.

    1. It is often the case that some individuals become so invested and gripped by their politics that their hatred for the opposition consumes their decency and accelerates their hate.

      1. Great point Darren – I tend to think though this is a class issues as well as poltical. These wealthy elite cultists are worse than any redneck I’ve ever met as they are so damn contemptuous. Well, good luck with that cause I see the pitchforks coming as the proles leap across their moats.

          1. You sound like that lawyer. Look who the wealthy elite are and what they are saying. Did you see the Kochs making comments? No, but wealthy elitist Hillary Clinton was the first to the plate pandering to the leftists and using it to condemn the one organization that works diligently to protect the second ammendment. Painting with a broad brush is exactly what the lawyer did.

            There are countless leftist elites who are trying to socialize many aspects of our lives. Some of the wealthiest people in the country are on board with the progressive left. Did you see Bill Gates or Warren Buffet coming out for conservatism? What about Zuckerberg? Oh wait, he used his company to spread unbalanced news. OK well how about the GM of GE, parent company of NBC, oh that’s right, he was an advisor to Obama.

            I would venture a guess if I had the time, I could provide documentation that your comment is wrong but, I have to go to work.

          2. The wealthy elite tend to run far to the Right.

            Mark Zuckerberg? Warren Buffett? Melinda Gates? Sumner Redstone? Jamie Dimon? Vikram Pandit? Robert Rubin? Penny Pritziker?

          3. I’ve seen no evidence that “the wealthy tend to run far to the right”. One of the few opinion essayists at the New York Times worth reading is Thomas Edsall. He’s honest and links to lots of data in his pieces to support what he’s writing about.

            “Has the Democratic Party Gotten Too Rich for Its Own Good?”
            https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/democratic-party-rich-thomas-edsall.html

            “How Did the Democrats Become Favorites of the Rich?”
            https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/opinion/how-did-the-democrats-become-favorites-of-the-rich.html

            1. And now Trump and his Goldman Sachs administration are trying to raise taxes on the middle class.

              1. Where did you get that idea?

                Don’t quote your ultra liberal garbage, look at what was actually said not the spin of the uber left.

          4. According to the AP, in 2014 the wealthy donated more to Democrats than to Republicans by a huge margin.

            https://apnews.com/dcc576dea58c43ee877c4b9852550cd1/wealthy-donors-sided-democrats-midterms

            In 2016, Hillary and her affiliated groups raised $1.3 billion compared to Trump raising only $750 million.

            The Democracy Alliance is a group of far left rich people who donate to left wing causes and candidates.

            “Democracy Alliance partners, as the group calls its members, pay annual dues of $30,000 and are required to contribute a total of at least $200,000 a year to recommended groups. Since its inception in 2005, the DA has steered upward of $500 million to a range of groups, including pillars of the political left such as the conservative media watchdog Media Matters, the policy advocacy outfit Center for American Progress and the data firm Catalist — all of which are run by Clinton allies.”

            http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/democrats-democracy-alliance-liberal-donors-105972

        1. Autumn, Agree. Elitists v Regular Folk more than political. The conventional politics of the last 40-50 years is undergoing a paradigm shift.

    2. I think it’s related to social media and is resulting in objectification. These aren’t real people that you’re spewing vile comments to on Facebook and Twitter. They are just little pictures, some without faces, they aren’t really people. I have seen some of the nicest people I’ve ever met say some of the ugliest things to people they have never met on Facebook.

  11. She’ll probably be in the running for DNC chair after Perez moves on. Perfect fit!

  12. Career limiting move

    She’s probably going to be radioactive in her future employability.

  13. You think Awan needs another attorney? I did hear the DNC coffers were low, though.

  14. I’m guessing she’ll be dirty shirting for Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC by end of day tomorrow.

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